The Ministry of Defence have confirmed that all Type 45 Destroyers will have recieved upgrades to their power systems by the mid-2020s.

In 2016 it was revealed that due to a design flaw on the Northrop Grumman intercooler attached to the ships Rolls-Royce WR-21 gas turbines, power availability was diminished considerably when functioning in the warm climate of the Persian Gulf; and it quickly became apparent that the class was not operating as originally envisioned with some losing power mid-deployment.

Therefore a planned refit was scheduled from 2019–21 to fully resolve the problems with the six ships in the class.

Jeremy Quin, Minister for Defence Procurement, stated:

“HMS DAUNTLESS, the first of class ship to receive the Type 45 Power Improvement Project (PIP) conversion, is at the Cammell Laird shipyard in Birkenhead where equipment is being set to work following installation.

The next phase of the programme will see HMS DAUNTLESS undertake a rigorous trials programme in harbour and subsequently at sea.

HMS DARING has been moved to the Cammell Laird shipyard in Birkenhead and will be the second Type 45 Destroyer to undergo her PIP conversion.

It is planned that all six Type 45 ships will have received the PIP conversion by the mid-2020s. The programme is dependent on the availability of ships to undertake the upgrade, balanced against the Royal Navy’s standing and future operational commitments.”

What’s the issue?

According to NavyLookout here, the vessels WR-21 gas turbine itself is of a sound design, however, the intercooler unit “has a major design flaw and causes the WR-21s to fail occasionally. When this happens, the electrical load on the diesel generators can become too great and they ‘trip out’, leaving the ship with no source of power or propulsion.”

Putting the Type 45 propulsion problems in perspective

The First Sea Lord, Admiral Philip Jones, clarified in evidence to the Defence Committee that the “WR-21 gas turbines were designed in extreme hot weather conditions to what we call ‘gracefully degrade’ in their performance, until you get to the point where it goes beyond the temperature at which they would operate… we found that the resilience of the diesel generators and the WR-21 in the ship at the moment was not degrading gracefully; it was degrading catastrophically, so that is what we have had to address”.

The Ministry of Defence is funding the Type 45 Power Improvement Programme. The current contract value is approximately £189 million.

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Johan
Johan
27 days ago

Another Reason that EMALS and systems were not selected for the Queen Class, the MOD or Navy Procurement learnt a lesson from fitting un-proven tech. but i am sure we can Blame it on Maggie Thatcher or Brexit… LOL

Tommo
Tommo
27 days ago
Reply to  Johan

Poor old Maggie can’t defend herself it has too be Brexit ask any Guardian reader and their tell you and at this moment in time even the French will state the same Tit for Tat

Christopher Allen
Christopher Allen
26 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

I despise the Guardian, can’t go a single day without releasing an opinion piece trashing Britain in some way or another, and don’t get me started on the readers.

lee1
lee1
26 days ago

While no paper is perfect (as they all have their own agendas) The Guardian seems to be one of the more balanced ones to me. I do not see it trashing the country every day, I see it simply stating reality. Compare that to the Telegraph which pretty much every day has a climate change denial article or some divisive story to tell.

I can also see that the only people bringing up Brexit with regard to the above article are those that appear to be leavers…

expat
expat
26 days ago
Reply to  lee1

Balanced!! The Guardian is well known left of centre newspaper. Its about as balanced as the Daily Express. You’re right every paper has its agenda.

lee1
lee1
26 days ago
Reply to  expat

In general I think it is Balanced reporting. Yes it is Centre Left, but that is pretty close to centre. The Express is clearly quite a far right leaning paper and reports on sightings of aliens! The Telegraph is also a far right paper that prints so many lies regarding Climate Change that it is ridiculous. I have so far not seen many articles in the Guardian that are not true… It even posted an article supporting Michael Gove the other week. Even the traditional right wing press struggles to support that maniac!

Tams
Tams
25 days ago
Reply to  expat

The Opinion Pieces are generally utter rubbish, if not harmful.

But their reporting is top notch, and they are pretty much the only ‘free’ (as in freedom) major news outlet left. All the rest have either been bought out, are at the whim of the government (BBC, Channel 4), or too small. And no, Private Eye doesn’t count as while they do a stellar job, they are small and always a degree of satire.

Expat
Expat
25 days ago
Reply to  Tams

That’s a matter if perspective, they reported on NZ success on containing Covid and compared it to the UK. Whilst I don’t want to get into an argument on UKs Covid response comparing us to NZ is is not credible reporting. London population dwarfs NZ and in fact a population larger than the Auckland commute into London daily. The only motivation for this kind of reporting is a vague attempt to say the Labour government in NZ is doing a great job and the Tories aren’t. The problem us those with an IQ of 3 or higher see straight though… Read more »

Nathan
Nathan
26 days ago
Reply to  lee1

I tend to disagree. The Guardian is very biased and not in the slightest open to contrary opinions. You should read the story of how Melanie Phillips was hounded out of the place as she slowly changed in her outlook on life and political leanings. The only aspects of their reporting I like are the science pages and overseas news. The Telegraph can be a bit myopic, with a glaring focus on the home counties and super rich but the idea it runs “climate denial” stories daily is hyperbole. I don’t like the term, for instance “Climate denial” its violent… Read more »

lee1
lee1
26 days ago
Reply to  Nathan

Climate Change Denial is a perfectly fine term for those that disregard facts regarding climate change. It is not in the slightest bit violent!

It is certainly not used to shut down debate. It is used to shut down lies and misinformation. Lies and misinformation should not be used in any debate. If you want to debate climate change based on actual real factual evidence then that is fine. If you want to use information taken out of context or use doctored charts, wildly inaccurate assumptions etc then that is Climate Change Denial…

David
David
26 days ago
Reply to  lee1

Perception of bias depends totally on the beholder’s standpoint. If you set aside the tabloid rags which are usually simply factually wrong, the left leaning see the Telegraph as biased, whilst the right leaning see the Guardian as biased. The Times and the late lamented Independent were probably the closest to the centre…..

julian1
julian1
26 days ago
Reply to  David

I agree, the wonderful Times and Independent. Times gets trashed because of its ownership though…..all in all balanced with editorial from both (centre) right and (centre) left

Martyn Palmer
Martyn Palmer
26 days ago
Reply to  lee1

You mean “Facts” such as these I will list? 1966-Oil gone in 10 yrs 1967-Dire famine forecast by 1975 1968-Over population will spread worldwide 1969-Everyone will disappear in a cloud of blue steam by 1989 1970-Nitrogen build up will make all land unusable 1970-Ice age by 2000 1970-America subject to water rationing by 1974 1971-New Ice age by 2020 or 2030 1972-New Ice age by 2070 1972-Oil depleted by in 20 yrs 1974-Space satellites show new ice age coming fast 1974-Another Ice age 1976-Scientific consensus planet cooling famine coming 1977-Department of energy says oil will peak in the 90s 1978-… Read more »

HerringMuppetface
HerringMuppetface
21 days ago
Reply to  Martyn Palmer

But thats stuff didn’t stick or your quoting out of context (more likely) , Science definitively evolves, Newton was wrong about Gravity , according to Einstein, but he didn’t lie, it was best description we had for gravity at the time, brilliant, Now we have better one, and even that we know is “wrong” in some circumstances. Science unlike politics moves on. “1974-Space satellites show new ice age coming fast” space satellites FFS are not exiting without science, try getting that to work using scripture and gut feeling, the earth is still flat according to that. Cyclical ice ages are… Read more »

Jon
Jon
26 days ago
Reply to  lee1

Really do you know the facts then if so why is every planet in the solar system having climate change and Venus has actually tipped on its side consider that the sun is bigger than all the celestial body’s in the solar system put together maybe the sun has something to do with it

Jon
Jon
26 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Hello, somebody else called Jon. I have a degree in astrophysics and know that it’s all down to the Man in the Moon, and that Venus was only tipped because it gave good service.

All papers are biased, because everyone is biased, and catering to prejudice sells papers. Whatever you think of a newspaper’s accuracy, they all select their facts to fit their bias.

Jon
Jon
26 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Ok course they will keep to whatever narrative the elites who run this want as they own them would not trust any mainstream news or paper anywhere

Jon
Jon
26 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Sorry missed out world

Expat
Expat
25 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Totally agree its playing to the audience. If the Guardian or DE started publishing articles contrary to their readers views they’d stop selling papers which mean no advertising revenue and redundant reporters.

Gfor
Gfor
25 days ago
Reply to  lee1

I’m afraid whatever your opinion on climate change is, this attitude of denigrating someone who doesn’t agree with you is a very dangerous and growing issue.
When I was taught science, our teachers always taught us to challenge and think critically. That’s why we were taught things like separating water into hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis. Not to be told we were ‘science deniers’, merely people with the capacity for thought and gathering evidence.
Insulting people does not shut down lies and misinformation, it only encourages division.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
26 days ago
Reply to  lee1

one of the more balanced ones to me”

The flag of the United Kingdom should be removed from Athletes at the Olympic games as it is “Divisive”

GCHQ is an enemy. Snowden a hero.

Scrap the armed forces altogether.

Just 3 balanced articles I recall.

The DM and the DE are no doubt equally trash but at least they seem to support their own nation at least.

lee1
lee1
26 days ago

The Athletics Union Jack piece was indeed trash and stupid. However they have never called for the Armed forces to be scrapped. The article I think you are referring to was an opinion piece (Always a bit rubbish no matter which paper you read) And was actually referring to shaping our defence for the modern world. I disagree with the opinion of the author but it was more to promote discussion than a call for a scrapping of the armed forces. I believe that supporting your nation includes criticising it when it is wrong and patting it on the back… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS
25 days ago
Reply to  lee1

I see lee1 you support cientism besides the destruction of liberal society.
Otherwise you would not call “deniers” so making them at level of holocaust deniers, to other people that things different than you.

julian1
julian1
26 days ago

you get the right wing equivalent nonsense from the telegraph

PARAGIKING
PARAGIKING
26 days ago

So you want papers just agree with all government decisions and policies? Why don’t you move to Hong Kong or North Korea where you can enjoy national positivity. 😜

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
26 days ago
Reply to  PARAGIKING

The flag of the United Kingdom should be removed from Athletes at the Olympic games as it is “Divisive”

Nothing to do with government opinions. Its just self loathing and a chip on shoulder about history that cannot be changed or airbrushed. Nor should it.

AlexS
AlexS
25 days ago
Reply to  PARAGIKING

Marxism is a primitivist ideology – no checks and balances, no separation of powers, no individuality – whose objective is to destroy the liberal society..And that always have been The Guardian objective.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
26 days ago

Hear hear! I’m at least on a par with you. Every time I go on Yahoo to check emails their opinion pieces are all over it, they get higher coverage then more centric or right view. What a surprise. Yesterday it was the usual waffle about our assets in the far east, QEC carrier, and AUKUS being post imperialistic nostalgia by BJ. How about instead, Britain is a P5 UNSC member, a G6 member, one of the worlds biggest economies, and has every right to get involved in ventures such a AUKUS with an ally like Australia threatened by China’s… Read more »

expat
expat
26 days ago

Its because XR and other climate groups are leveraging climate but have a left wing agenda. Although, I do struggle with the terms left and right these days.

Many of Le Pens policies in France are closer to those championed by Labour at the last election. But I guess if you keep going left you end up on the right. 😀

davetrousers
davetrousers
24 days ago

Read the Daily Express then.

B.M. Griffiths
B.M. Griffiths
19 days ago

Christopher: By jove Sir, I do believe that you have hit the nail squarely on its head!

Hugh Jarce
Hugh Jarce
24 days ago
Reply to  Johan

Tf are you talking about? The T45 propulsion problems have nothing to do with EMALS, they’re two totally different issues you halfwit.
And if lessons HAD been learnt, then the T45s wouldn’t have been fitted with unproven propulsion in the first place. Damn you’re stupid.

Last edited 24 days ago by Hugh Jarce
John Hartley
John Hartley
27 days ago

I cannot believe that a good intercooler engineer could not have fixed/modified/replaced these WR21 faulty intercoolers.

Jon
Jon
27 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

I’m also curious about why they couldn’t be replaced. In fact the same question was being asked on the Navy Lookout site (then STRN) five and a half years ago. There was no answer. Maybe we can get one now.

Tommo
Tommo
27 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Exactly, How much does cost too train an Artificer up to the a standard of jobs such as one required which has troubled the 45s or is it contractual work only a Civilian operatve can do just wondering

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
26 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

It’s way past us Tiffs being able to fix it. This thing has no shipping routes or access to get to it… It was never meant to as it was suppose to last the life of the ship…

Tommo
Tommo
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

No Fwd thinking there in the planning , and updates when required

Frank62
Frank62
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Thanks Guns.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
26 days ago
Reply to  Jon

For Land equipment REME used to conduct an Ease of Maintenence Assessment before the equipment was brought into service – and changes made as necessary. Does the RN not do something similar?

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
26 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Yes maintenance is part of the design process … But this thing was never meant to come out during regular fleet time. A comparison of an AFV to a Destroyers engine room isn’t a valid comparison.

Tommo
Tommo
26 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Nah , Rabit runs , is the way Pusser does things although H&S would have a Fit at some of the things I’ve seen and done Our Motto was Make do and Mend , Graham

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
27 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

I’ve often wondered about that as well, especially as there is the facility to remove the gas turbine itself for maintenance.

I have looked online for pictures and all I can find are diagramical representations that may not be to scale so I can only surmise that the intercooler is too big and or so placed in the ship as to deny sensible access…

Cheers CR

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
26 days ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

The core which goes wrong isn’t that big… A couple of cubic meters at most…and comes in parts that are fitted together. Its just impossible to get to without dismantling everything first…

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Hi Gunbuster,

Thanks for the posts here – informative as ever.

Can you clarify that when you say ‘core’ you are referring to the core of the intercooler / recuperator assembly? I trained as a mechanical and aeronautical engineer so ‘core’ to me refers to the jet engine bit of this system.

Also, do you know if the engine surges when it fails? I have a pet theory as to the challenges faced in solving this issue…

Thanks CR

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
26 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

I have helped to change 2 intercoolers out. Its a massive job. A big team (1 0+) from Pompie flew out, had assistance from my mechanics, stagers, workshops and riggers and it still took the best part of 3 weeks to do. Its not a ships staff job and its not something anyone with an adjustable spanner can do. These things where meant to last the life of the ship and supposedly would never need to be removed. When they did need to be removed a complete process was developed from scratch detailing wha needed to be done. A huge… Read more »

lee1
lee1
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

So is the work on the improved propulsion just involving the intercoolers or are other components also being upgraded at the same time?

Jon
Jon
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

But you make the point: it was done. So why not replace the intercoolers with an updated design instead of leaving them, replacing the recuperators and adding supplementary engines (as I understand the reporting of the fix)? Is this a de-risking measure or would a new intercooler design cost too much? Have RR given up on the WR-21?

Last edited 26 days ago by Jon
DaveyB
DaveyB
26 days ago
Reply to  Jon

I think so, as the they repackaged the MT30 to use the same space as a WR21. Interestingly all the images of the MT30 show that it doesn’t use and intercooler or recuperator, yet it still makes more power and is also more fuel efficient than the WR21.

Nathan
Nathan
26 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

If this is the fault of the aftercooler – why is the Royal Navy paying for it? Surely our contracts required them to provide performance guarantees? NG should be coughing up the cash, or is there something else not being said here?

Reaper
Reaper
27 days ago

Imagine a 45 in heavy sea with no power…🤢 scary stuff.

Tommo
Tommo
27 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Not in Birkenhead LOL

Mike
Mike
27 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

I’m actually not sure which is scarier? It’s a close run thing 😂

Gfor
Gfor
27 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Not as scary as going dead in water with no power with incoming missiles and enemy air attackers popping up on the horizon.

Tommo
Tommo
27 days ago
Reply to  Gfor

Is this really world or exercise?

Tommo
Tommo
26 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

Typo , REAL world or Excise?

Tommo
Tommo
26 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

I’m getting peed off with predictive txt

Frank62
Frank62
26 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

Amuses us though Tommo. Tried it once & never used again, never will. My problem is fat fingers-tiny keys & being a night owl, posting early in the morning forgetting to spell check.

Tommo
Tommo
25 days ago
Reply to  Frank62

I haven’t the problem such as yours but my little problem is that I’m using m yleft arm which is unnatural to me but I’m glad it,has, brought amusement to the cyber world Frank

Gfor
Gfor
25 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

I’m not sure what you mean?
If you mean that a real attack is unlikely, then there is no point spending the money on the repairs, the ship or indeed a navy.
Its not being prepared and capable of dealing with reasonably foreseeable threats that can get you into serious trouble when you are least prepared for it.

Tommo
Tommo
25 days ago
Reply to  Gfor

Gfor, your post stated, about Not as scary as Dead in the water, no power missle attacks,and enemy aircraft popping up over the horizon, my reply was Real World or exercise Because the Last time that,happened, was HMS Glasgow 1982 the ship with the Hole I was there but not on Glasgow that was all maybe you had been in Corprate ?

celso PINHEIRO
celso PINHEIRO
27 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

It happened several times…

Hugh Jarce
Hugh Jarce
24 days ago
Reply to  Reaper

Imagine a Type 45 with no SM-3s or SM-6s. Even scarier stuff.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
27 days ago

Here’s an interesting point that many on here might not be aware of, and that includes me. The WR21 project was originally a US project lead by Westinghouse Electric later Northrop Grumman. The turbine is based on the RB211 / Trent series of engines with the intercooler developed by the Americans. The French Navy and RN became interested so the consortium widened.

There is a brief description on Wikipedia.

Only the RN adopted the engine, sadly…

Cheers CR

Tommo
Tommo
27 days ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Bet the French are ,laughing at us Petit bourgeois

Iain
Iain
27 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

They were… Until they lost $30bn boat deal 😀

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
26 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

Not at the moment they’re not..! 🙂

Tommo
Tommo
26 days ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

I Suspect your right at this moment in time let’s savour the moment ourselves qui,qui qui .

Rob N
Rob N
27 days ago

Why I ask does not the MoD fit Sea Ceptor to the ships while they are having PIP. This would greatly speed up its introduction and eliminate the need for 2 periods of work….

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
27 days ago
Reply to  Rob N

Not really – it would massively increased the complexity.

I’m also not too sure CL are the people to do that fit.

As @GUNBuster has said a few times, most of the prep for that will be done at sea of alongside – there even the silo fit is relatively easy so it might well not need a full docking period.

Tommo
Tommo
27 days ago

Are they modular fitted or is structural work required involving docking and timescale for the complete fit out ?

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
26 days ago
Reply to  Tommo

Structural work can be done without the ship being their. Build the silo and crane it on. Cabling and equipment fits internally in the rest of the ship will take the time but they can be done in increments if needed.
Additional firefighting, vent, power supply, computer integration, ships drawings alneed to be done.

Tommo
Tommo
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Right Gunbuster Prior preparation, is the key knowing Pusser its Heath Robinson all the way Job done kidding

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
27 days ago

Are all six of the T45s FFBNW ASMs still?
Just in case…

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
27 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Is there an option of putting extra Camm silos on the hangar roof?

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
26 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Piggybacking on this. How different is CAMM to the ASRAAM? If they’re roughly the same could the later be adapted to fire from a RAM style loader? Then they could be paired with the Phalanx’s.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
26 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Why RAM?
If you have a VL system you don’t need a trainable launcher.
Trainable launchers add complexity, maintenance and top weight.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Hi GB, looks like my reply hasn’t come through so doing it again. I was thinking more RAM style launchers for the carriers where maybe there’s less of a foreign debris issue. There was at one stage a Seastreak /Starstreak launcher which looked pretty useful. I wonder why this didn’t get up and we’ve just gone with the Phalanx’s? And yes I still harping on about the carriers lack of defensive armament even when there in a CSG environment…Lol 😁

Tommo
Tommo
26 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Know what you mean Quentin the old Hermes had Seacat more exhaust than missile . Quad launcher Local or Radar guided god did it burn the paint work

Tommo
Tommo
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

But boy they look the dog’s Bxxxxxks, with 2 drill on the rails when entering harbours in Alpha

Daveyb
Daveyb
26 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

CAMM/Sea Ceptor, has a number of differences. Think of it as an ASRAAM Mk2. The main difference is that the primary sensor is an active very high frequency radar, whilst ASRAAM uses an imaging infrared (IIR) sensor. The reason why it is considered a Mk2 version, is that the majority of the internals are different, in that they use more modern componentry, circuit boards etc. ASRAAM will be getting a mid life update. This will include most of the components used in Sea Ceptor, except it will still use an IIR sensor instead of radar. The IIR sensor is also… Read more »

Tommo
Tommo
26 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Radar blind Acrs?

Hugh Jarce
Hugh Jarce
24 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

“Is there an option of putting extra Camm silos on the hangar roof?” What is the point of adding CAMMs to a Type 45? (In fact, what’s the point of fitting CAMM to ANY ship?) For starters, CAMM AFAIK has only been tested against a subsonic Mirach drone. And I have no idea how stringent (or not) the testing was. Secondly, if you want to take out subsonic missiles then a modern CIWS and/or 76mm or 57mm gun could perform that job far cheaper and such guns have good magazine depth. Thirdly, if you ARE going to fit CAMMs to… Read more »

Last edited 24 days ago by Hugh Jarce
Quentin D63
Quentin D63
26 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Forgot to add… as I think only 4 T45s have the Harpoon?

Hugh Jarce
Hugh Jarce
24 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

There is currently NO decent ship-launched anti-ship missile in existence that could be fitted to the T45s.

An ideal ASM would:

  • Be able to outrange Kalibr, Oniks, YJ-18 and Zircon
  • Be high supersonic or hypersonic or at the very least be able to accelerate in its terminal phase
  • Be manoeuvrable
  • Be able to carry mini-missiles internally like Perseus
  • Come with a dedicated EW variant to accompany it
  • Have a laser to blind EO/IR sensors
  • Be much cheaper than existing missiles that are ridiculously expensive
Last edited 24 days ago by Hugh Jarce
Quentin D63
Quentin D63
26 days ago
Reply to  Rob N

I think they’ll want to make darn sure all the PIP is 100% working before they start stalling the Camm, upgraded Asters, radars and electricals.

Rob N
Rob N
26 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

I just have a problem understanding why it will take so long to install a 24 cell VLS on T45! Why SO long?

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
26 days ago
Reply to  Rob N

Hi Rob,

Money and indecision. MoD has had several early Christmas presents all at once on the money front and Ben Wallace seems to be getting stuck in on the decision making front…

And I mentioned Christmas 🙂

Cheers CR

Hugh Jarce
Hugh Jarce
24 days ago
Reply to  Rob N

Because they’re incompetent.

Hugh Jarce
Hugh Jarce
24 days ago
Reply to  Rob N

“Why I ask does not the MoD fit Sea Ceptor to the ships while they are having PIP. This would greatly speed up its introduction and eliminate the need for 2 periods of work….” Or even better fit Mk41 VLS, SM-3 and SM-6. The Type 45s would be proper AAW ships then. Or maybe, here’s a crazy idea, build them like that from the get-go. The T45s are ridiculously underarmed ships. TWISTER should be ready by the time the T45 replacements are built and they should come with TWISTER from the get-go. Also get rid of Phalanx and fit a… Read more »

DC647
DC647
27 days ago

I don’t see why we have to pay to upgrade a design flawed unit these private companies supply sub standard equipment or they overrun on schedules and overrun on costs and its the tax payers pick up the bill. Perhaps if the government stopped this waste of tax payers money and start penalising these companies they’ll soon pull their socks up and get the job done properly. If it cost directors and shareholders money tuff.

John Clark
John Clark
27 days ago
Reply to  DC647

Unfortunately, I think the Government of the day ( Labour) specified and insisted on the specific propulsion drive train.

BB85
BB85
27 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

Yeap BAE told them it was a high risk unproven design and the government told them to go ahead because it was supposed to be a joint engine project that everyone else pull out of. I wonder why.

Robbo
Robbo
27 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

John is correct. The Design Authority wanted to develop a conventional propulsion system but we’re over-ruled by the MoD who insisted on WR21, not LM2500 and on IEP rather than a conventional gearbox

Meirion x
Meirion x
26 days ago
Reply to  Robbo

The T45’s would of been even more noisy if fitted with LM GT’s only, just like on the Burke’s.

IEP works fine on the Zoomwalt’s!

Last edited 26 days ago by Meirion x
Gunbuster
Gunbuster
26 days ago
Reply to  Robbo

IEP is fine.
Lots Commercial ships use it and it has a lot of advantages for military vessels.
A T23 is pretty much an early working version of IEP when its not on the GTs and is on the DGs for steaming around.
What isnt fine on the T45 was the unforseen issues with the intercooler/recouperator.
That said a lot of the problems where pretty much fixed years ago by software mods to the computers controlling the IEP system and the modding of the intercooler/recouperator cores.
The new PIP DGs are adding extra resilience

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Hi Gunbuster,

Ah, yet another helpful and informative post. This is the first I have read of software upgrades, unless me memory is letting me down [again]. I was wondering how the RN had managed to get the T45’s to be level of availability they have been achieving in recent years.

Thanks again

CR

Paul.P
Paul.P
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Thx for clarifying this issue. Very helpful post.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
26 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

Hi John, You are basically right, but the WR21 system had much promise before it was installed and was totally new. I should also point out that the development of the system was started by the Americans with the UK and France jumping on board as the system developed. Like I say, much promise. The UK and RN have taken risks in technological development and have done very well out of the considered risk taking. ALL technology innovation comes with risk – no risk taking, no gain. Worse you get left behind. Two examples. Turbinia built by Parsons and used… Read more »

Andy P
Andy P
27 days ago
Reply to  DC647

You could argue that lessons actually have been learned, the T31’s are an agreed price and hopefully this logic will continue with future projects. Obviously not the army, they’ll continue to spunk gazillions but the senior service seem to have got their shit in one sock.

Steve
Steve
26 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

T31 aren’t even at the stage of first steel cut yet, we will have to wait some time before we can judge if lessons were learnt or not.

Andy P
Andy P
26 days ago
Reply to  Steve

A price has been agreed and that was my point. I believe the first ‘official’ steel is cut today (friday) on the 31’s.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
26 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

Today is Thursday?

Andy P
Andy P
26 days ago

Yup, my bad ! Not getting much sleep at the moment with a new pup. First steel being cut today (Thursday).

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
26 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

I was wondering if the program was slipping before it had started!!

Let’s hope it goes well and T31 proves to be a great platform delivered to budget.

If it is then I can see the fleet growing.

Andy P
Andy P
26 days ago

I was wondering if the program was slipping before it had started!!”

😂 No mate, me just being a bit stunnned.

I’m with you on getting these out on budget (and time), they may not be the vessel’s that we fantasise over but this is what we’re getting.

Steve
Steve
26 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

Hopefully all is tightly agreed, but I wouldnt be surprised if there are additional costs that were not properly defined in the contract and the ships end up being much more expensive than planned.

Andy P
Andy P
26 days ago
Reply to  Steve

We’ll see eh ? My understanding is that the £250M is before they’re fitted out etc so the final cost will be more but Babcock are working to a prearranged budget. Its a novel way of doing it, at least for the MOD so while I get (and share) your cynicism I’m in the ‘wait and see’ camp, at least for now.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
26 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

The point was to keep it a pretty austere and well defined fit.

Leaving plenty of space/power etc for other systems to be fitted later. It will have space for canister launched and should have a slot for a Mk41 VLS unless the hull space was reassigned as the Danish version has a VLS fitted.

Keep it simple = well understood = on budget.

Steve
Steve
26 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

Yeah agreed, in theory it sounds like a great approach, but until they are actually in service for a year or two, we won’t really know how it plays out in practice. Just a shame it took ordering massively cut down capability wise ships to get it right.

Andy P
Andy P
26 days ago
Reply to  Steve

“Just a shame it took ordering massively cut down capability wise ships to get it right.” It probably makes sense to try this new approach with less expensive units. Its also a second production line effectively so not all the eggs in one basket. If it all goes to rat shit then the T26’s will still be rolling off the line in the Weedge. I think both Babcock and the MOD have got a lot sweating on this, Babcock get back into building warships, and in decent numbers with the T32’s to follow and the MOD to get cheaper warships… Read more »

Mark B
Mark B
26 days ago
Reply to  DC647

If you are designing any new piece of kit it rarely works first time. This is fine when you are producing hundreds of thousands of units at a relatively low cost. You test the first hundred of so until you eliminate the faults. Not so easy when you are producing 6 units. Consequently the supplier will need to load the price massively to pay for putting right any faults or enter into a risk share arrangement. That might be what is going on here.

Hugh Jarce
Hugh Jarce
24 days ago
Reply to  DC647

Yep, proper contracts are required that state that if any equipment doesn’t work as advertised then the company fitting it foots the bill of fixing any problems, not the taxpayer. We also need proper contracts so that companies are financially penalised for late delivery on projects.

Paul42
Paul42
27 days ago

How are things actually progressing with Dauntless? Once again it seems problems are occurring…….

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
26 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

Hi Paul,

I get the impression that she is close to sea trials at least.

Recent news is that HMS Daring has been moved to Birkenhead in readiness for her PIP upgrade.

Yesterday’s article on here about the status of the T45 repairs gives moore details.

Cheers CR

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
26 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

Hi Paul,

Ignore my referal I was thinking of another article and looking at the list on the right of this article…

DOH!

CR

Paul.P
Paul.P
27 days ago

So can someone clarify; if the intercooler had a design flaw why could not just that component be replaced? Or is it rather the case that the degradation characteristics of the ‘system’ of turbine+intercooler+recuperator in ‘warm waters / air’ were not properly understood?
Or is it the case that we cut corners and just under specced the diesels?

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
27 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Hi Paul.P,

These are the telling questions and have been asked many times before over the years.

The link in the article above is to a Navy Lookout article that makes interesting if depressing reading. Also, I found this on Wikipedia…

Whilst they do not answer all your questions directly you can see how we got here…

Cheers CR

Paul.P
Paul.P
27 days ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Thx for the background CR; and for the sanity check!

Last edited 27 days ago by Paul.P
ChariotRider
ChariotRider
26 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Hi Paul,

If you haven’t already, check out Gunbuster’s posts above, really helpful.

Apparently, most of the problems were solved by software upgrades and the PIP is added resilience – belt and braces I guess.

Cheers CR

Paul.P
Paul.P
26 days ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Yeh, saw it thx; the perils of being at the bleeding edge I suppose.

Daveyb
Daveyb
26 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

IT’s not really the intercooler failing, but the recuperator. Look for my earlier posts on the subject and it it will explain what a recuperator does and why they fail.

Paul.P
Paul.P
26 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Thx. I will.

Mike
Mike
27 days ago

So, the Royal Navy has but six destroyers and some of them don’t work? Sounds almost Argentinian doesn’t it? How the mighty have fallen! What a disgrace.

Last edited 27 days ago by Mike
Sean
Sean
27 days ago
Reply to  Mike

Not really.

Argentine has 4 of what it calls destroyers but what everyone else calls frigates, and one of those is laid-up and likely to be scrapped.
All are early 80’s vintage.

julian1
julian1
26 days ago
Reply to  Sean

and don’t forget the one that capsized?

Sean
Sean
26 days ago
Reply to  julian1

That was an even older frigate, a Type 42. I think that’s since been scrapped, the other Type 42 is no-longer operational.

Their current frigates are a German design I think – I think the RN has a good record against that source 😏

Airborne
Airborne
25 days ago
Reply to  Mike

Your rather simplified and simplisitc posts are now just becoming boring troll like. Maybe interact and defend and discus your opinion when people reply, thats what grown ups do.

AlexS
AlexS
27 days ago

The existing explanations for the issue/issues are not satisfactory.

Dauntless have been more than a year making the upgrade.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
26 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Nothing is plug and play and its a bloody complex job. You dont just crane in a couple of new engines, attach some aeroquip fuel connections , plug the Genset into the mains and it works. On a T45 Holes cut into the ship for access. Some systems like pipework and cables will need to be isolated, blanked removed first before the cut happens. New foundations are required to be fabricated and welded in to existing structure. NDT of the welding. Moving of existing piping and systems because its in the way. A bilge on a warship is like a… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

The modifications were said they were predicted to last 6 months instead of more than a year and counting.

Also why the intercoller/recuperator are not replaced by a well working models that makes unecessary to install more diesels?
Something fundamental was not done correctly.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
26 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

The problem is that even is something as big as a T45 things are designed to fit. So to change over the power plant to a known good new system would require building a test rig of the plant in the exact geometry and then testing it to death with all the appropriate loads. The costs of doing this would be eye watering my high. The risk is that having done that you discover that there is another issue. As @GB and others have commented the problem has been mitigated by tweaking the software so you don’t get into a… Read more »

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
26 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

The modded intercooler/recouperator, modded MCAS software and the new DG sets are all belts and braces fixes. The chance of a single point of failure is now reduced to almost zero with all three fixes in place.
So MCAS software now should not TLF the ship
Intercooler/recouperator is modded and will not catastrophically fail
DG sets provide additional power greater than the old DG sets and can power propulsion and weapons/sensors on their own.

Sean
Sean
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

With that level of redundancy the modded Type 46s could potentially be the most reliable in terms of power availability…
enough to spare for a laser perhaps? 😏

Andy P
Andy P
26 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Then I guess all the drawings etc for the ‘stokery types’ and firefighting etc will need to be updated… hands put on new valves etc.

There seems to be a perception that this stuff is organised by Coco the clown and some dudes on the internet will have the knowledge to sort it.

Airborne
Airborne
25 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

He shoots…..and boom yet again eh GB smashes the answer though the back of the neck, giving the initial poster no room to come back to the orignal comment, and has to rely on plan B tactics, that of generic moaning. Keep shooting GB we do all love the in depth knowledge, even me, who knows very little technical info about the RN 🙄

Coll
Coll
27 days ago

I noticed the second radar mast on the skyline in Birkenhead today.

Last edited 27 days ago by Coll
David Burns
David Burns
26 days ago

As a witless but tax-paying civvie, why is the MoD having to stump up the £189m for PIP? If this was a design flaw or was allowed through manufacture, assembly, field testing, sea trials etc., why hasn’t someone (anyone!?) fallen on their sword…….?

Meirion x
Meirion x
20 days ago
Reply to  David Burns

If the extra diesel generators had been fitted in T45’s while being built, to give the ships some extra reserve power generation capacity, this extra spec would had to have been paid for by the MoD(Taxpayer) any way.

T45’s were built with some penny pinching along the way!

Last edited 20 days ago by Meirion x
Rossman
Rossman
26 days ago

Who is paying for ll this?

Last edited 26 days ago by Rossman
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
26 days ago
Reply to  Rossman

MoD, says at end of article.

Ron5
Ron5
26 days ago
Reply to  Rossman

The builders Bae told the MoD that the American gas turbine LM2500 should be specified because the intercooled WR21 was way too immature. Its technology had only been demonstrated in a laboratory environment in the US. One Geoffrey Hoon, Labour Miniter of Defence, overrulled Bae and insisted on the Rolls Royce WR21 in order to encourage Labour votes. Hoon was, and remains, a total prat. Because it was the government’s (Hoon’s) decision to select the crappy engine, the government (i.e. the UK tax payer) has to pay for any fixes. This was admitted in Parliament. Hoon has long disappeared into… Read more »

tomuk
tomuk
23 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

Ron
The WR21 was tested in the UK at Pyestock not the US. Two thirds of the way through testing the US supplied recuperator was replaced by one supplied by a different US contractor. This was only tested for the remaining third of the testing. US had lost interest as GE agreed on LM2500 upgrade and Westinghouse had been split up. If US funding had continued the issues with the new recuporator would have surfaced

Daveyb
Daveyb
26 days ago

On semi-related news at DSEI 2021. Babcock have shown the latest model of the Type 31. The magazine count for SeaCeptor is 24 in the “mushroom farm”. But perhaps more interestingly was what was placed in front of the farm. There were 8 cannisters of what can only be surface to surface missiles. These cannisters look exactly the same as those used for the Kongsberg NSM missile. Also at DSEI, Raytheon who are managing the NSM missile, stated that the NSM is being procured by Canada as a replacement for their Harpoon missiles and will be used on their Halifax… Read more »

Ron5
Ron5
26 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Babcock’s showed a model of the export version of their design – Arrowhead 140 and NOT the type 31.

comment image

DaveyB
DaveyB
26 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

Yep, that’s the one.

Ron5
Ron5
24 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

So any conclusions about the fit of the Royal Navy’s Type 31 that are based on the model of the export version Arrowhead 140 are totally invalid.

DaveyB
DaveyB
24 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

I wouldn’t say that, as the Babcock representative kept referring to the model as the Type 31 as well as the Arrowhead. Jumping to conclusions maybe, but it shows what the T31 may look like after its been delivered – fingers crossed. Funny howe this model doesn’t show the two DS30s mounted either side of the Bofors 40mm (ala T26), that was shown on their presentation?

tomuk
tomuk
23 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Type 31 isn’t getting any DS30s

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
21 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

To qualify as ‘totally invalid’, Babcock ought not to have I.D.’d the vessel as T31 on the flight deck; in addition to fitting it out in virtually all other respects, apart from the 24/8 fitment at this juncture, as a T31.

David
David
26 days ago

In 2016 it was revealed that due to a design flaw ……. therefore a planned refit was scheduled from 2019–21 to fully resolve the problems with the 6 ships….

Yet in 2021 only 1 ship has been processed. That’s the real story for me…..

Steven Alfred Rake
Steven Alfred Rake
23 days ago

The problem originally came to light on the 1st of class (HMS Daring) acceptance trials back in 2008/2009 but for some unexplained reason it was decided to allow the rest of the class to enter service without any modifications. The real question that should be asked is WHY was it not put right when the ships were still under construction? Also WHY is the public paying for these changes when it should be the contractor who built these ships who should be held responcible for delivering defective ships. And the last question should be WHO signed off on these ships… Read more »

Meirion x
Meirion x
23 days ago

Obviously You haven’t read the article properly!

The defective part has been fixed on the other T45’s. PIP program is to upgrade the power supply, so they can ran on diesel gens alone on low speeds, or for reserve power.

Steven Alfred Rake
Steven Alfred Rake
22 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

Hello Meirion If the problem has been fixed why was HMS Diamond taken out of the CSG an left in the Med for reapers which took the best part of 6 weeks. The PIP upgrade’s have been on the cards for some years and this is also to do with taking some of the strain off of the main engines so the diesel engines have to have more capacity, Also my article was about who should be paying for the upgrades!! What ever we say or don’t say it is a national embarrassment that out of 6 T45s we have… Read more »

Peter Gee
Peter Gee
21 days ago

Quite a leap to assume that the issues on Diamond were related were related to PIP! (Any references) She is also somewhat east of Suez now. Also as Dragon’s maintenance period is complete, she has also been out at sea. So availability is 3/6. Duncan is almost complete a planned deep maintenance period.

Meirion x
Meirion x
20 days ago

Steven, HMS Diamond was able to sail from Egypt to Italy under her own power, she was not towed into Taranto, so obviously another issue that needed rectification, that we will only find out when her mission has ended. If the extra diesel gens had been fitted to the T45’s in the beginning, to give them the extra reserve power, this would of have had been paid for by the MoD(Taxpayer) anyway. The T45’s were built with some penny pinching, here and there! The RN now has 3 T45’s available at notice or on deployment, HMS Diamond, Defender and Dragon.… Read more »

Last edited 20 days ago by Meirion x
Steven Alfred Rake
Steven Alfred Rake
20 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

Hello Meirion, If it was anouther issue why was personnel from BAE systems and Rolls Royce sent to the ship and were waiting for part for a WR21 to be sent out. The WR21 is the industrial name for the Gas turbine which powers the T45’s. HMS Diamond was able to travel across the Med under her own steam as the crew was able to shut down the main engines before they tripped out so the auxiliary generators were able to take over but at a much reduced out put so a lot of the ships systems had to be… Read more »

Peter Gee
Peter Gee
20 days ago

Again, there is a fair amount of supposition in your response. A GT issue it may be, but that does not mean it was the same issue. Whilst running just on diesel is of course possible, do you have evidence that both WR-21s were impacted?

Steven Alfred Rake
Steven Alfred Rake
20 days ago
Reply to  Peter Gee

Hello Peter It is fact that the T45’s were delivered into service with faulty engines. It is a fact that if the problem was rectified on the slips we would not have a class of faulty Destroyer’s. It is a fact that it has taken 13 years to start to rectify the problem.(approximately half of the serviceable life expected from the class) It is a fact that the T45’s are supposed to be our number one air defence system for the CSG and ASG so are a critical part of the fleet. It is also a fact that the T45’s… Read more »

Peter Gee
Peter Gee
20 days ago

Hi Steven. There is a lot that went wrong on the T45 propulsion design, but as I think you are saying, the latest issue does not appear to be related. Not sure this will help you, but the issue was seen prior to Daring going to sea, it was seen in a test bed. The government of the time decision was to proceed, and effectively gamble it could be resolved in service. It turned out worse than expected, but not as bad as the media would have you believe. Further, whilst in-service fixes have dramatically improved things, there is still… Read more »

Steven Alfred Rake
Steven Alfred Rake
20 days ago
Reply to  Peter Gee

Hello Peter I agree that the T45s are an outstanding AAW platform but due to its propulsion issues it has made the RN in the eyes of our would be opponents (Russia, China, Iran, N. Korea) a laughing stock and given them a propaganda gift as every time they (one of the T45s) goes to sea they are followed by the press waiting for a breakdown then when (not if) it happens it is in the media in every country which makes the RN look like they are going to sea in 3rd rate equipment not fit for purpose. My… Read more »