In a new primer released by the Council on Geostrategy entitled ‘Why Britain needs a larger navy’, William Freer and James Rogers make the case for a larger navy, assessing the importance of the sea to British interests and examining how the Royal Navy’s posture has changed in the last 50 years and how it ought to change in the future.
In recent weeks, a number of media reports have questioned whether the Royal Navy is in decline, attributing the decommissioning of ships to a recruitment crisis.
At the same time, the news has been dominated by the stories unfolding in the Red Sea as commercial shipping comes under attack from Houthi rebels, backed by Iran.
🚨 NEW RESEARCH 🚨
‘Why Britain needs a larger navy’
In this new Primer, @william_freer and @james_rogers analyse the geostrategic rationale behind the UK’s need for a larger navy, and how this can best be achieved 🇬🇧#StrategicAdvantageCell 👇https://t.co/MhSNsaFfYq
— Council on Geostrategy (@ConGeostrategy) January 16, 2024
This Primer will argue that a larger navy is essential to protect British interests and to face growing maritime threats from rival countries such as Russia, the People’s Republic of China (PRC), and other hostile actors, such as the Houthis.
Despite the total displacement of the Royal Navy having increased by over 18.5% between 2000 and 2023 from 700,000 tonnes to 830,000 tonnes, the number of warships has dropped from 107 to just 65 over the same period (including the Royal Fleet Auxiliary). Worse, with threats proliferating in the Indo-Pacific and the Euro-Atlantic security environment worsening, Freer and Rogers argue that the UK no longer has the luxury of being able to focus on just one region. Instead, Britain needs to be capable of shaping events across the globe to protect British interests.
A failure to respond to the challenge has consequences – Russia and the PRC have fast been modernising and growing their own navies. The authors of this Primer highlight the risks to the UK as an island nation and re-evaluate how Britain should look to balance securing sea control in the Euro-Atlantic with contributing towards sea denial in the Indo-Pacific. A lack of hull numbers from years of underinvestment has left Britain vulnerable to disruptions at sea, particularly from a more assertive Russian navy in the North Atlantic and other hostile actors over key maritime chokepoints.
Similarly in the South China Sea, this Primer states that failure to act would embolden the PRC to consolidate its position beyond the ‘First Island chain’ and destabilise the delicate military balance in the region.
Well this is preaching to the converted. However, Gordon bailing out the bankers in 2008-10 plus Dishi Rishi hosing out covid money, means the UK credit card is maxed out. That does not mean nothing can be done, it just means any RN improvement will have to be slow & steady. No point having extra new ships if we have not recruited new sailors to man them. Or have the dockyard facilities to maintain them.
There are other ways to get money. How about accounting for the tax revenue on military purchases in the UK rather than just the contract price, so less money goes abroad and the total GDP pot is increased? How about producing platforms in the UK in large regular quantities (significantly dropping the unit price) and selling off excess production abroad? Eg a T31 every year on continuous production with improved designed every five years. It’s a risk but for some things not a big one and the potential upside is enormous, especially if the revenues flow back to the MOD.… Read more »
Without rock solid commitment the navy could not rely on a rolling cycle of ships being used and sold as they may not get replacements built.
It’s not really the Navy’s risk as the build order for the replacement takes place years before the sale. If it works well, instead of a Type 31 going into its second major refit, it gets sold (maybe 12 or 13 years post-launch) and the Navy gets a new one to work up that same year (assuming that capability insertion phases, as planned for the T31, work as advertised). The only difference to the Navy is the need to work up more new ships instead of post-refit ones, and the significantly higher ship availability. If ship builds are cancelled, the… Read more »
With the lack of gov commitment to even replacing vessels currently in service, id be more concerned about a plan like that. In theory there are benefits, in practice, delays in construction and changing political landscapes could throw it all out the window.
Er, I have no love for this Government BUT 8*26 and 5*T31, does show 13 new ships coming through frigate wise.
However, rebuilding a FF/DD navy of 32ish platforms is what we should be aiming for IMHO.
I mean it’s the bare minimum, the T23 was previously a 16 ship class too. Yes we should be aiming for more, but so many other areas are lacking rn that we can’t just focus on escort numbers.
Problem right now isn’t ships its people. Britain’s media has successfully reprioritised what people think is the right and wrong thing to do. And sorry to say serving you country is not a priority.couple that with its not financially beneficial, working part time a using government topup gives you more than joining the services.
Unfortunately this will continue and get worse as its a central pillar of the political parties in the UK.
Hello Jon. Do we know how much corporate tax is as yet unpaid?
How about removing the strategic nuclear submarine force from the BoD budget and moving back to where it used to be
Exactly..I’ve said the same thing many times.
I think the BoD is an eminently sensible idea. We don’t need a Department anymore, a Board could handle the workload.
Wasn’t that part of the plan for the 23s originally, that they would be sold on before a deep refit as past experience had demonstrated how expensive that was for marginal gains. Instead they got all the expensive refits and were still run into the ground waiting for their replacements to be built.
Yes. People forget the financial impact from COVID and the banking crisis.
Still, just transfer the Brexit £350m / week from NHS to RN for a few weeks a year, and it would all be so much better
NHS has spent that 10 fold and are still demanding it.
Something else our superiors deliberately screwed up .
Can you explain to me how nationalising a bank and sacking all the top executives that worked there is bailing out a bank? You know the UK turned a profit on every intervention excluding RBS.
Look at the money lost on Gordon Brown selling off half of Britain’s Gold reserves. That was for the benefit of a certain US multinational bank that was short of gold for one of its financial products. They had a lady on loan to HM Treasury, giving advice. She told Gordon how old fashioned gold was. Gordon fell for it. That decision cost the UK at least £6 billion then & with gold over $2000 an ounce now, Britain is probably down around $20 billion by now.
Bailing out the bankers? Stops UK investing in warship building? Utter economic nonsense. Actually what we should have done instead of Thatcher home economics austerity was to borrow while interests were low and invest it in the country including ships/ manpower for the navy rather than doing what the Tories did of borrowing and then chucking it away on tax cuts for mates.
It is the national debt that stops governments spending wildly. In the late 1990s, UK national debt was around £400 billion. It is now £2.5 trillion. By the end of this decade it will be over £3 trillion. Interest payments are already bigger than the defence budget. While debt has been steadily rising as Labour, coalition & Tory governments spend more than they take in tax. the 2 big jumps were 2008-10 banking crisis, plus 2020-22 covid crisis. If you had borrowed wildly when interest rates were below 1%, you would now be facing payments at 5.25%. Ask anyone remortgaging… Read more »
And call me Jez *unt is planning more tax give aways.
Must be an election coming and rather than being prudent, let’s bribe our way back into Government to the detriment of UK PLC.
We need a bigger Navy, no s**t. Along with a Army and Airforce😎
Second that 🤗
I will third it ,lol
Yup, but RAF have got Typhoon and RAF/RN have 48 F35B with the very real possibly of that coming up to 72 as that has a budget line but not sure if it is funded or not?
Talk about Stating the Obvious ! Seriously just who doesn’t see what is happening, especially right now in Europe, the Middle East and SCS……. Interesting trip I took to Portland a few weeks back, two Tides and the new Stirling Castle tied up and not enough Crew or money (Portland Docking Fees are rather expensive) yet the “Barge occupants” (all young Males) are walking around wearing brand new clothes and given money, food and Shelter all for free…. Something is very wrong.
The people coming isn’t the problem. The problem is the lack of ability or willingness to process applications. If 80% of applications were done within 4 weeks and Deportation happened then there would be no need for accommodation and the costs would reduced dramatically. I say 80% as some cases are complicated. If you want to appeal the decision that can be done from whatever country you choose to move on to. Then the successful applicants can get on with building a new life in the U.K. instead of waiting for ages in limbo. The government knows what it’s doing… Read more »
Absolutely right. We make the system unfriendly as the only way of deterring people, but even that doesn’t work. Sitting around being fed and housed in (relatively) comfortable accommodation is better then being on the streets whereever they have come from. That is a life-style choice, and who pays for them to sit around unproductively? And it does appear to be mostly working age young men too! We can’t stop them coming as we have no control over where they leave from. And short of sinking the boats in the channel and leaving them to drown there is nothing else… Read more »
Making the system unfriendly is part of the problem, not the solution. If there’s an easy route that gets things done speedily it’s a lot cheaper for us than a hard route that’s challenged legally every step. That’s true even if you have to process more people, and I think the numbers coming depends more on the final outcomes than on how user unfriendly the system is.
In exchange for the right to stay perhaps these young men of working age could be trained as crew for the RFA. I think 10 years of service would be reasonable
How about sonic booms etc, to keep migrates away?
Agree the processing should be done within 4 weeks. If found to have no legal right to asylum and therefore an economic migrant then they should Be sent home. First flight back to whatever country they come from escorted by a returns crew. It’s either that or they are allocated a job on a farm or some such and told they can remain as long as they work. We need as a nation a supervised work scheme so economic migrants work and contribute in a supervised manner. The minute they disappear or come off the scheme they go onto an… Read more »
The problem is people coming. It’s now becoming clear migration isn’t driving economic growth. We had massive net migration yet the economy has flat lined teatering on the edge of recession. if migration was an economic driver we should have seen an impact as the volumes have been very high, the size of a large town in one year alone. The way you give our armed services more money is to do more with the country’s existing population, this means we don’t need more schools, hospitals, houses etc, all things we need to build over years and increased government borrowing… Read more »
Yes it is ..it’s very much part of the problem. Not financially the biggest but it will be soon .
Yesterday in Chichester down the road from me there was a Candlelight Vigil for the Albanian Chap who topped himself on the barge at portland these people at the vigil were claiming he was a Refugee fleeing a War zone oh Fxxxing really some people if these Refugees are fleeing Warzones are their Wives and children doing the fighting !!!!!
Incredible. There is no war in Albania. Our FCO do not advise of any issues there other than the possibility of politic demonstrations in the capital, which might turn nasty!
👍But you cant explain too these Liberal minded the difference between a Refugee and an economic migrant who will probably end up at a car wash, a Turkish barbers or plant sitting a cannabis farm they just won’t have it ,but none of them seem too be taking them into their own homes .It’s all virtual signalling ” look at me I’m so compassionate “
Don’t fall for blaming the poor & vulnerable for the lack of money in HMG coffers. It’s been the one way flow of wealth from the people & exchequer of this land to offshore banks via asset stripping & privatised ccompanies & utilities bleeding us dry while hiking bills, awarding themselves huge rises & massive bonuses. Since Thatcher it’s been blatent smash & grab greed. Tax rates for the richest have plumeted while the tax burden for the middle & poor has risen so we pay more for services that deliver less, if they survive at all. And these very… Read more »
Hello Frank, I didn’t Imply that at all…. I merely pointed out that the “Barge occupants” seem to be given brand new Clothes, Shelter, Food and money whilst our Navy sit’s idle just Metres away due to lack of crews and Funding.
And there are Veterans on the streets without new clothes phones food money and shelter a lot of them with mental health issues stemming from serving the country that seems too care more for economic migrants than their own
Don’t get me started on mental health services for veterans.. you send someone to war, you bloody well give them all the support they need..we still see mental health caused by trauma as a bit shameful when all the evidence is that it’s the normal reaction to traumatic events…you purposely put people through trauma, you need to help put them back together.
Tha nks Johnathan, the Armed forces Covernant should be there too help Veterans .My G.P surgery had my records yet I had to inform them that I was ex Forces and yet my medical records had all of my service medical notes attached My GP has now placed Veteran on my records
Indeed, the covenant was for a long time ignored completely to be honest..I hounded my system for ages to actually get a lead person on the Covenant. It’s getting better, but unfortunately it’s not pro active…people with mental health issues because of the trauma they have suffered need to be looked for as they will tend to hide what they are suffering in shame..especially you guys from the forces who have, lets be honest been very much indoctrinated in the idea of independence and dealing with it… some things you can bull through with discipline and strength of mind ..mental… Read more »
Thanks Johnathan, Some Lads in our town have off their own backs have opened a Drop in Called Charlie Charlie 1 (Army call sign meaning Everone ) the drop in has details for work and mental health teams available for EX service personnel .They opened this Hub in memory of a local lad who had been serconded too SF in Syria during ISIS 2017/18 on return too his Regiment went of the rails whilst on leave took his own life ,His Mother had a hell of a time getting financial help from the Army for his funeral just another case… Read more »
I think it pre-dates Thatcher. The ‘bleeding us dry’ phenomenon is a ‘fil rouge’ that runs back to the Norman invasion. The Wessex kings had built an well administered England, ripe for takeover. Saxon community and cultural values were evacuated to Scotland by Margaret of Wessex who brought good manners to the Scottish court and became St Margaret of Scotland for her trouble. There have been many instances over the centuries of ‘working people’ as Keir Starmer would call them, petitioning their feudal masters for fair treatment; usually unsuccessfully; the Pilgrimage of Grace, the Peterloo massacre and so on. The… Read more »
Please forward this on to a Mr R Sunak. Many thanks
The navy will probably continue to shrink. If sources of revenue continue to dry up, then there is nothing we can do. We cannot even afford the NHS or the rest of the welfare budget.
The public will never care about the navy.
I’m not sure that the Sources are drying up as such, I just think other areas are milking it better…. NHS is a total mess either way you look at it, as is the Benefits system, Immigration and we have a disproportionate wealth distribution that makes the rich, richer at the expense of the masses. Billionaires don’t pay the same rate of Taxes as the average man on the street…. AKA Tax Avoidance of Biblical proportions.
Unfortunately frank, the NHS is paid far less than it should be for what it provides..we in this country simply think we can get something for nothing all the time..the US pays its health system around £20,000 pounds to do a knee replacement, European systems get around £10,000-£15,000 per knee replacement..if you went to a UK private hospital it would cost you around £12,000-14,000 pounds..NHS hospitals are paid less that £5000 to do a knee replacement.. we can whine all we want about healthcare costs..they cost what they cost and pretending they don’t will not make the cost go away…you… Read more »
Why do you think the public will never care about the Navy? I keep hearing this from people and not a single one points to surveys or research. Just the usual anecdotal stories.
There was a YouGov study last year and an article about it on here that said 45% of the UK want a larger military. Only 7% wanted further cuts or total disbandment. 28% stay the same and 20% don’t know.
There is everything to play for in terms of popularity. Somebody tell the minister!
Well the MOD PR needs a better budget.
It is called marketing…..the NHS is constantly marketing its woes when the mercury drops a bit or the nights get longer.
As others have said the NHS is a total mess and utterly inefficient and utterly unable to sort itself out.
It is telling the Vennels of Post Office fame was on an NHS board. Precisely the kind of person that the NHS desperately does not need but which the boards are stuffed full of. The problem is that nobody who is any good wants to go near it because of them.
I worked for a company that contracted ad hoc taxis to our local NHS board. I remember dispatching a car to take a junior doctor to another hospital around 30 minutes away. Subsequently I received another call. The doctor had forgotten his bottle of juice and they asked us to send another car to take this to him. I shit you not. That’s just one example of the utter wastage I witnessed while dealing with the NHS.
Where it would have been cheaper to give the good Dr a voucher to buy juice in the on-site M&S…..
System doesn’t work that way…….
Although actually it [the tax system] does as he can’t reasonably get back to base for meals so they are expensible.
Amazing. He could have got juice from the hospital shop or canteen that he was seconded to.
Exactly. The absent minded doctor could have bought another £1.50 bottle of juice but instead the tax payer chauffeured one to him for around £25. I’ll be honest, I witnessed a lot of nonsense dealing with that contract, lol.
Post Office, NHS board, C of E Priestess…applicant for Bishop of London: the whole system is an incestuous swamp.
They’ll care, sadly when it’s too late and 400 Chinese warships, blitz past the combined EU navies and pincer us from 4 sides. Our response today we could cobble together maybe 40 ships. 10 to 1 despite our excellent navy they would be out of ammo and options after taking on the first one hundred. So we would have 300 Chinese warships encircling us. Absolute disgrace for a country with the longest and best military record. Heads should role Downing street, Whitehall and the Houses of Parliament! Their number one job is protecting us, but they use our money for… Read more »
I posted this in another thread recently as an option given the cost of new warships and manpower. A very useful deterrent. When you take into account the size of the Chinese Navy for example which will reach some 400+ ships by all accounts come 2030, it seems pointless trying to match their numbers with ships but rather increase the amount of long-range anti-ship missiles at your disposal to meet the potential threat. Now take into account the cost of building a Type 26 (UK Batch 1: £1.31 billion) and the fact that we have just allocated £2.5 Billion for… Read more »
I think the Chinese have the longest recorded naval history; never underestimate them.
Maybe but the Chinese have never won a major war. Not one serving member of PLAN has ever seen combat their command and control structure is ridiculous. When it kicks off for real, which it will, I think they’ll fall apart. At least I hope.
All true unfortunately . China has a naval base opposite Yemen in Djibouti. And is busy getting ports build and planned in west Africa, americas and west indies . One day europe will wake up to find china has a dozen frigates on the Atlantic and controls all the shipping lanes
HS2 in itself is not the problem. It’s the fact that the costs have been allowed to grow meaning the original price hasn’t been adhered too. So contracting and attention to detail failure. In addition as the costs were allowed to rise the governments predictable response was to cut whole sections off the scheme, the precise sections the “Northern Powerhouse” needs. Now we are left with a high speed line running from Birmingham to 20 miles outside London “Broad Oak Common” where passengers will disembark and get onto a slow crawling committee train into either Paddington or Euston or get… Read more »
Much of the problem is the geography of England. London has had two expensive heart bypass operations in order to keep functioning; Cross Rail and the Elizabethan Line. But the shear density of activity has defeated the bottom piece of the HS2 route.
We should years ago have moved Parliament and Whitehall to a new capital; probably near Leicester. It would have been a fitting location: celebrating the de Montford parliament and the burial place of Richard III, the last truly English king.
Small correction: The Crossrail Programme delivered the infrastructure that is operated as the Elizabeth Line. Crossrail was funded by DoT and TfL meaning oversight by the Mayor of London and the Minister of Transport. The duration was about 25 years from concept to completion which reflects the great complexity of construction within the existing London underground and overground rail network. Engineering and tunneling challenges aplenty. Hundreds of contracts and many joint ventures to limit the commercial risk. Despite what the press had to say in complete ignorance of such major programmes the over-runs compare well to other similar efforts worldwide.… Read more »
Not questioning the heroic nature of these civil engineering projects – very impressive. Just making the obvious point that French geography for example ( and Napoleonic planning culture) make it easier to build fast, long distance railway lines. Britain is a long narrow island with a hilly backbone and a capital in one corner. A simpler solution is to move the capital nearer the middle 🙂
Napoleonic planning culture is best left as culture diversity IMHO but centralisation has benefits and issues as you suggest. Geography and History do impact our ability to change and improve.
So I’ll go with Jon’s suggestion for decentralised to two locations, North and South.
I wonder how the BBC move to Salford from Shepherds Bush has gone..
Good question about the move to Salford. It’s never too late to learn 🙂
The Palace of Westminster needs expensive renovation and it would be fastest and cheapest to move everybody out for a decade while works are ongoing. So having a Northern parliament would help drive home the cuts in public transport in Northern cities. How about Leeds? No rapid transit system, slow links to the Northwest and the Northeast. Put the Department of Transport in Stockton to add a little more impetus and we’d soon see more money going into the North.
That’s not to say the East Midlands couldn’t also do with more investment.
Levelling up?
Due to the peace dividend at the end of the Cold War defence money has been sapped off and put in places that it is now difficult to claw back from. People will notionally agree that the armed forces should be bigger but if it means that the increase in their public sector wage doesn’t match how special they feel they are and have to downgrade to Benidorm from Lanzarote this year, then they will fight tooth and nail to resist. I hope the defence budget is increased but it must come from existing money as we can’t simply deficit… Read more »
Bigger Navy I never realized 🤔 🇬🇧
Well, I was stunned …
I would certainly agree that we need much more capacity to project power at scale, but whether adding more naval platforms at the expense of other capabilities is the way to do it needs careful consideration. There is no point in being able to field lots of surface escorts in places where an adversary can field so many long-range missiles and ISTAR assets that survivability becomes an insurmountable challenge- unless your own platforms can outrange the missiles. So we could invest in developing delivery systems with greater ranges and better ISTAR capabilities. Eventually there would come a point when the… Read more »
“Despite the total displacement of the Royal Navy having increased by over 18.5% between 2000 and 2023 from 700,000 tonnes to 830,000 tonnes, the number of warships has dropped from 107 to just 65 over the same period (including the Royal Fleet Auxiliary)” Anything to do with two huge aircraft carriers and some nice big tankers being delivered? The amount of money in ordering T32 or T31B2 is trivial in the national accounting and even really in terms of naval accounting which is dominated by the submarine budget. Ordering 5 x T32 or T31B2 is a max £2Bn project maybe with an added 3 x T26… Read more »
39,000×4 tonnes for the tides.
Wiki says the RFA is 341,000 tonnes
That is quite a percentage with that class.
Bays + Argus are quite a bit too.
I’m struggling if Fort Vic and various extended readiness vessels are not included?
Yes, besides more warships we need to give better wages & conditions/terms to RN personnel to help with the manning crisis.
Certainly believe we need more surface ships, but I think there is a more urgent (and easier to solve) issue. We are seeing large numbers of drones/missiles becoming available to potential enemies that will be able to be launched in numbers sufficient to swamp all available defensive missiles on UK ships. First priority for me is to up gun UK surface warships with both extra short and medium range missiles/guns. If an enemy is able to launch 100+ drones at a Type 45 it’s got a good chance of being hit multiple times. And that attack capability against them is… Read more »
The idea of T31s with a tiny sea Ceptor farm is vastly outdated by the threats they face. If your enemies intend to try to overwhelm you with missiles & drones, having just 12-20 SAMs aboard is suicidal.
Agreed…
It’s a good thing the T31s are planned to have, at a push, room for 64 CAMM if you quad-pack the mk41 then isn’t it?
It’s better than that, T31 has 32 mk41 VLS cells, for a maximum potential load of 128 CAMM/CAMM-ER, and I believe CAMM-MR can be dual-packed for a maximum potential of 64 100km range missiles, which isn’t bad for a general purpose frigate.
500 years of history? Has someone in Whitehall noticed the flaming obvious?
All true but it’s just another report that will be ignored by the Political Elite. If it costs anything and can’t guarantee a majority at a GE then it’s “No $#1T Sherlock” and I need to cut more to pay for a pre election bribe. Wellcome to 2024 which is “The Year the Chickens came home to roost”. Other than RFA Proteus we have zero RFA available due to previous cuts and no crews. 2 huge Carriers with very little self defence capability and not enough F35B for a full compliment (and AEW that is a bad joke). 2 T23… Read more »
The RN did not require 13 pure anti-submarine frigates. So T26 order cut and replaced by 5 GP frigates. It is AAW vessels that the RN is in need of. So a extra build of 3 T26 with enlarged hulls to similar size of T45, and fitted out with up to 96 VLS. And a better radar set as well, Carfar?
Two T45’s have already completed PIP, and 2 are presently undergoing PIP, and 2 more within next 3 years.
To much of a distraction from T83, I fear. The T45s are going to last a decent amount of time, so bringing T83 forwards and upping numbers ought to be the way rather than corner-cutting.
The Gulf Crisis has proven the need of more ‘area air defence’ capability vessels urgently. Only 6 T45’s were built, only bare minimum, which was not enough!
Another temp solution to the lack of AAW/AAD vessels, is to double crew, or set of roving crew some of the latest refitted T45’s, to get them redeployed quicker. And crew swaps at places like Souda Bay.
Good idea. Let’s have a bigger navy.😂
I think the RN needs to start to look at ghost fleets.
You might have to explain that in a modern context, Coll.
Unmanned surface vessels. The Yanks call it a ghost fleet.
Thanks. We seem to be using a huge amount of US terminology these days.
More ships, more aircraft, more air defence, more armour, more small arms, much more manufacture and resupply, and more manpower as boots on the ground are essential too. Lots and lots of cheap systems rather a few complex ones. Fundamentally not just the Navy.
Never mind 2% of GDP 5% or more is needed.
The report seems to be factually accurate and does touch on some of the issues without really spelling out what our priorities should be. The comparisons between Britain, USSR/Russia and China are a bit misleading. Chinese navy vessels have outnumbered the royal navy for nearly 50 years. But only in the last decade has China moved away from coastal defence towards longer range power projection. Russia’s surface navy is small and weak but it is,as the report stresses, continuing to build capable new submarines. To me there are 2 key questions- What are the biggest threats we need the RN… Read more »
The present Russian submarine threat, is still only a fraction of what it was at the time of the Cold War. So the RN does not need a lot of ASW vessels. It is in need of more AAW/AAD vessels. The RN certainly needs carriers to project naval air power!
The main threat is much further from home!
Chickens come home to roost. They wanted carriers? They got them. So other stuff suffers. See, there is only so much money in a shrinking pot. They wasted billions on Wuhan Flu, they will not tax corporations, yet tax the shirts off of our backs. And let individuals like Baroness Bra take the pee. Needless to say, unlimited “migration” for spurious refugees. An NHS that swallows more, achieves even less? Said it elsewhere months ago, this country is banjaxed. There, that feels much better!
Given that the range of shore-based weapons is becoming a major limit on ship deployments and limiting options, would it not be a good idea to get some more ships capable of launching unmanned aircraft? I mean like a mini Kiev style thing that can maintain and launch 3-4 Mojave/ Protector STOL type UAVs and a helicopter, maybe based off T26 or stretched hull. You would retain the 5″ and CAMM forwards and the hull sonar so the ship (I don’t know what to call it yet) could operate alone, with the mission bay and hangar space cut down to… Read more »
All surface ships need to be submersible. Think of Surcouf.
Now THAT is what I’m talking about.
Slap a 5″ on an Astute and we’re golden
Or a Zumwalt AGS and spend a extra billion so you can fire it underwater
All ships are submersible…you just wouldn’t want to be on them when they do..
Too damn right
I hope the QEs aren’t planned for subsurface operations any time soon 😉
?? Surcouf was a S/M. Are you saying she was a surface ship that could submerge?
Of course she would fire her 2 x 8″ guns whilst on the surface.
A truly incredible boat.
Surcouf was a “submarine cruiser” and only really submerged, as with other subs of the time, in order to attack and escape.
So it’s not unreasonable, though inaccurate, to describe it as a submersible ship rather than a true submarine.
We also need the right escort ships. Not diesel powered frigates without sonars that can’t do ASW. Trying to be realistic about cost, I’d look to build 6 Type 26 Batch 1 and 2 for independent operations, cancel the three T31 not yet under construction and bin the mythical T32 which will likely never exist anyway. I’d then build 6 stripped back T26 for ASW operations as part of task groups or in the North Atlantic where carrier/land based air power reduces the need for AAW, land attack and ASuW missions. These 6 T26 would have the same ASW sensors… Read more »
Yeh none of that is going to happen. BAE is not going to let their competitor build their frigate design for one thing. Stripping back a couple of weapons will not save nearly are much money as you think. And the T31 is exactly what we need in the red sea rn. There were only ever going to be 8 ASW Frigates, even the original 13 T26 had only 8 of such.
They did not.
There were 16 T23 built, all designed to be ASW units, and the others carried the previous sonar. It is only penny pinching that has resulted in 8.
There are only 8 ASW Type 23s currently in service, and 3 General Purpose T23s with no towed sonar array. The T26 would have consisted of 8 ASW and 5 GP again
Theres clearly no desire or funding for more than 8 ASW assets.
There’s no funding but where is the evidence that there’s no desire. In what was will the ASW threat decrease between T26 GP leaving service and T31 entering service?
There seems to be a part of UK doctrine that if something isn’t the best possible form it can be in with some exceptions, then we won’t go for it. In this case I’m referring to the fact that we won’t mount ASW kit on sub optimal platforms. The T31 as an example. Nowhere near optimised but still a good opportunity to deploy such equipment, as the french are doing with their own GP FDI frigates.
Sub optimal is definitely an appropriate description of T31.
I’m not sure what point you are making with respect to France. French FREMM frigates and FDI frigates have sonars and the Lafayette patrol frigates are now being fitted with them. Even their AAW destroyers have a sonar.
T31 is still a useful platform. But my point is that French destroyers, FDIs and Lafayettes are not dedicated sub hunters but they’re still equipped with Bow sonars and sometimes even tails. The Royal Navy could have more ASW equipped frigates but won’t because they don’t want to or can’t afford to deploy more than 8 ASW crews
I’ve seen no evidence that they don’t want to but plenty that they can’t afford to. That’s mainly due to money wasted on job creation schemes. We could have had 5 T26 for the cost of Nimrod MR4A.
Main example is the sonars already fitted on the Destroyers. They’re deactivated with no one to operate them
Okay…? That’s not what I am saying. I am fully aware of the numbers of warships currently in service. Historically, they were all designed for tails, and, to my recollection of when I was on ASW, the current ‘non-tailed’ ones had Sonar 2031. The original order for 2087 was for 16 sets (effectively one for each T23), but that was cut way back when. If needed, Westminster’s kit could be put on Iron Duke, though she would be taken out of action for several months for it to be ported across. We only have 8 ASW units due to that… Read more »
Ignore parts of my past reply… I misread your T26 as T23!
Has been a long day… my apologies if I caused any confusion.
Sorry, it’s down to 9 in total now, not sure what the split is but 4 have pretty much gone now and I’m guessing another will be going soon… leaving just 8 and pretty much only giving 5 available…. 5 from the original 16……
And then watch Russia launch a load of drones after them… I think that’s the area we are weakest. 32 Sea Ceptor nay not be enough.
57 and 40mm combo ought to deal with drones confidently. It’s a flight of Ru fighters with ASMs where the problem lies.
New era. Given a few more years – fact is, we don’t know but risk being tooled up for the wrong war.
I think the only thing we can say with confidence is that ASW will not be a huge part of wars, given Western superiority in numbers and technology with and old Russian fleet and an untested Chinese one. Therefore, T31 as a small boat, ASuW and AAW GP frigate (feel free to suggest further acronyms) is well suited to the new style of grey Warfare and the Great Ocean Battle.
That I agree with – the Russian fleet is not liable to be a major issue other than for shooting nukes at people. Against China, Great Ocean Battle probably, mainly an American issue, for us more inclined to think about a lot of lowish tech drones forming the main mode of attack supported by a much smaller number of higher end missiles.
I wouldn’t really mind us playing the Policeman on the world stage while the Americans go for battle fighting world dominance. We will retain more influence with widespread patrols and the option of carrier strike than trying to be mini America and dominating sea space outside Europe. That’s not abandoning Indo-Pacific tilt but going about it another way, with softer, more widely spread efforts.
Let’s see how this goes?thank you houthis for highlighting the shortfalls of this government’s shambolic defence policy, 30 years lots of rn ships to protect shipping, now 1or 2 for the job,bye bye sunak quicker your sewage government is gone the better
the UK needs to increase its armed forces across the whole piece by at least 100k people, but the reality is the RAF needs the biggest increase, followed by the RN We can get away with a relatively small army as long as it is fully mechanised and has the right mix of artillery and drones. what we can’t get by with is a small air force – as that is clearly where the main difference is made. The RAF needs doubling (especially if we are serious about Space command) and the RN needs to be doubled (if we are… Read more »
Many think we failed in Afghanistan and Iraq – one key factor was a shortfall of boots on the ground – we needed an Inf Div in Helmand but we only had a brigade group (plus RAF and RN/RM manpower/assets, I haven’t forgotten them). With a 73,000 army we could not even do Op Herrick again (an enduring brigade operation), unless many army reservists were called up and the RM helped out massively. Many think we would struggle to man and deploy 3 (UK) Div – our armoured div – it also lacks a full suite of modern equipment. If… Read more »
Do we really have to re-learn a lesson we have known for 400yrs?
The only significant change is also the need for an effective airforce as well.
The army are not a primary UK force for home defence.
Depends how much the politicians want to go and play soldiers in other parts of the world though
Do we really need a bigger Navy when we have a nuclear deterrent and are technically bankrupt as a nation and can’t even provide special needs schooling places for mentally disabled children like my son. I am conflicted as having military strength is important but as a NATO member and a nuclear power, do we really need to be sticking our oar into everything when our country is so badly run and most of the infrastructure and public services are so totally and utterly fecked. Right now we have massive outlay on our armed forces and can’t even put together… Read more »
What’s the nuclear deterrent got to do with it?
Best wishes for your sons needs AoF. Short answer, yes definately. To have tiny conventional forces invites disaster & there should always be enough to ensure the nuclear deterrent is only a last resort against existential threat or as a counterstrike when no alternative is available. Current numbers of RN frontline waships area appalling & unsustainable. The cut from what was back then controversially a minimum 24 escorts(Destroyers & frigates) to 19 was too far. The RN then had trhe reality of not having enough proper warships to meet all our peacetime demands. Meanwhile Russia & China were becoming very… Read more »
The forces manning crisis could be partly solved by all UK residents to become cit must volunteer for minimum 3 years service. No service no vote after service including to be a member of Parliament. Minimal benifits unless a veteran. Illegals should be allowed resident status if serve in forces would help them speak English and Learn our customs at same time.
That a joke? Assume so
We’ll be down to just 13 escorts or the next few years due to clapped out old ships retiring with no new builds coming until 2026/7. That must be the absolute nadir, not that it should ever have been allowed to get anywhere near that few, It is a crimnal disgrace & betrayal of our nation & all the allies that rely on us. It allows all our enemies to be much bolder. 19 Was far too few. 24 or 25 should’ve been the absolute peacetime minimum. If the world had remained peaceful we may have got away with it,… Read more »
Agree on 24/25 as a minimum. In that regard, we are now seeing the culmination of a few things: 1). The drawdown of the frigate fleet, including the early retirement of T22 and T23 hulls without replacement (especially withdrawing 3 T23 and the B3 T22), 2). The decision to cut the T45 order from 12 to 6, 3). Years of faffing around with the order of T26 and slow build times and, from my perspective, lack of direction. Hypothetically, we should have said “8-10 ASW frigates and 6-8 GP frigates across two clear variants”… and stuck to it DECADES ago!… Read more »
Unfortunately there is no quick fix even if the money was made available. But one has to start somewhere. 1) Schools should be required to promote civic patriotism and combined cadet forces should be embedded in most schools. This will help in the long term with recruitment – along with decent enough pay and housing. If that doesn’t work then we need National Service. 2) Go back to basics. Make sure we have decent stocks of ammo and equipment before any big headline announcements. 3) If there is any money after that then prioritise the Royal Navy and build more… Read more »
This will annoy you as it did me, I encouraged my nephew to join the RAF cadets (ATC) and he loves it, he’s now a corporal and soon to be a sergeant. Last week he was complaining about new rules on discipline, you can no longer shout at cadets or make them do anything that might be seen as bullying, long gone now are the ‘give me 20 press-ups’ for poor appearance on parade, this then became ‘stand in to the corner while you think about how bad your shoes are, (quite funny) to now simply saying ‘your name will… Read more »
We can afford a larger navy but what we can’t afford is a larger navy, Airforce and army. The land threat from Russia is overstated, European NATO alone has 1.8 million regular personnel with vastly superior training and equipment. If Russia poses a threat to the UK it is from the sea. China is the greatest threat to the western led order and it’s a naval challenge. We could never defeat China on land but we could defeat them at sea. If the USA pulls out of NATO then the main thing that NATO looses at is disposal is the… Read more »
I agree with the fact we can’t do everything we used to be able to do and have to set the requirements, then the budget. The risk at the moment is that we’re not coherent in our strategy or our procurement of tools ( ships, aircraft, tanks etc) to the requirement. As a country we are never going to compete on land as we’ll never have a large enough army in today’s world, air force is still possible and navy we can be outnumbered but tech can make up for it. Britain has ambitions to maintain a blue water navy… Read more »
Tell us something we don’t know , to say the RN has 65 warships is a bit disingenuous . The RFA ships aren’t really warships in the true sense of the word and I would hardly call the small patrol boats warships either . With 2 carriers , 9 seaworthy frigates and 6 destroyers we have at apush 17 surface ships that could be put to sea in an emergency plus the subs . Doesn’t make good reading
The Royal navy in my eyes became not fit for purpose a few years back when Iran was mucking about in the gulf area hijacking ships . The uk was barely able to send a t23 out there , which did a fantastic job. That was the first time in memory the uk was unable to respond. At the moment things have definitely not improved . You cannot be in two places at once with roughly 6 ships ready to go.
I think for the uk armed forces to improve , there requires an all party vote in Parliament to legally binding a 2.5 to 3 percent minimum military budget along with better accountability longterm planning processes . Same as they ring-fence the NHS which is just consuming money . When we watch smaller nations like south Korea suddenly dominate armed forces tech , Poland turn a corner for local build , and especially Turkey which has gone from zero to producing everything from ships tanks drones planes, its obvious that if the will is their and good national strategic management,… Read more »
The only way the Royal Navy could possibly hope to meet all of the objectives mentioned, would be by turning the clock back the 50 years also mentioned, and re-establishing the Navy as it was then. This will never happen, because the UK cannot afford it. What is needed is an acceptance by UK politicians, and the UK armed forces, that the UK is no longer a global power, and that our armed forces should focus on UK border protection, and home defence. It’s better to do a small job well, than to try to do a bigger job, and… Read more »
The UK is still the 6th largest economy in the world, so that still makes us a global power!
Do you really think that a country with a failing health service, crumbling infrastructure, food banks, a massive trade deficit, and which can no longer be called a united kingdom at many levels, is still a global power?
Yes, it’s still is! It is the size of the economy that supports the UK’s position as a global power, the economy that matters. It is even bigger if you include the ‘Black Economy’! Just look at Türkiye, you would think it is a poor Thrid World country with crumbling infrastructure, the reality is that Turkiye ranks in the top 20 of largest economics of the world! You could say much worse about India, how this ragtag of a country could be the 5th largest economy in world ahead of the UK? That could even be bigger, if you include… Read more »
I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree. The size of the economy has nothing to do with it. Using your reference to India as an example, does anyone consider India to be a global power? When there was a British Empire, then we were a global power, but the Empire was dissolved more than 50 years ago, and the Royal Navy has been downsizing ever since. We do not have the money or the will to rebuild it, and should concentrate our limited resources where they are needed most – at home, not in far… Read more »
You can say all those things for most leading economies, including the USA. You don’t think there weren’t incredible problems and poverty to resolve even at the apex of the British Empire? We need some decent governance in this country but it’s still a world power. Have you not noticed that everyone in the world needs to speak English, or that everyone wants to come here? I don’t see flocks of people from poor and rich countries wanting to move to Russia of China. Anyhow the NHS has just saved my father in law with cutting edge DNA procedures that… Read more »
I’m well aware that other countries, including the USA, treat their citizens as badly, or worse, than the UK, but they still have sufficient military capability to project their power on a global scale. The only way the UK could do that is by threatening to go for the nuclear option. English is indeed widely spoken, but only because it’s a legacy of the British Empire. People only want to come here because our benefits system is a relatively soft touch, (and we speak English). I’m pleased for your father-in-law, but for the majority, with chronic conditions, the NHS is… Read more »
Why not have a navy law that will make it impossible to have cuts to Royal navy . All parties would have to abide by it .. any mp that tries to reduce it automatically gets prison time .. increase the renumeration of the armed forces ..we can find £8-10 million every day putting up criminals who come here and god knows how much the so called legal ones cost us . Scrap the aid budget completely all money going to the armed forces 60% RN, 20% each for other two ..cut welfare. Our masters squander hundreds of billions every… Read more »