The new Type 32 Frigate will be built in addition to the Type 26 and Type 31 Frigates in the hopes of bringing the escort fleet up to 24 vessels from its current 19.
This comes after Prime Minister Boris Johnson announced what the Ministry of Defence have called “the biggest investment in the UK’s Armed Forces since the end of the Cold War”, confirming an injection of £16.5 billion over four years.
Referring to his promise to “restore Britain’s position as the foremost naval power in Europe”, the Prime Minister added:
“If there was one policy which strengthens the UK in every possible sense, it is building more ships for the Royal Navy.”
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said today:
“We’re going to commit to the next generation of frigate the Type 32. We’re going to commit to bringing online the Type 31 and Type 26 Frigates in Scotland.”
According to a press release from the Government:
“The £16.5 billion investment confirms our order of 8 Type 26 and 5 Type 31 frigates, commits us to the next generation Type 32, and supports the future solid support ships that will supply our Carrier Strike Group.
Whilst this is reassuring news for the defence industry, Defence will not overlook the challenges that are ahead, to continue addressing the savings still required and the efficiencies we need to make.”
Discussing this news, respected defence journalist Xavier Vavasseur at NavalNews said:
“While the 8 Type 26 frigates (also known as the City-class) and 5 Type 31 frigates were already planned to be procured, the real surprise in today’s announcement is the mention for the first time of the “Type 32”. Early rumors associated the term with an export variant of Type 31, T4X (Type 45 destroyer replacement), the Littoral Strike Ship project (which appears to be abandoned) or even a typo.
Naval News learned from a reliable UK source that this is in fact some sort of ‘pre program’ put in place for budgetary reasons in anticipation of a future potential ‘Type 31 Batch 2’. The source added that this potential ‘Type 31 Batch 2’ may not necessarily be based on the Type 31 design.”
Additionally, outlining how the cash would be spent, Johnson said that the funding would help “spur a renaissance of British shipbuilding across the UK – in Glasgow and Rosyth, Belfast, Appledore and Birkenhead”.
Just hearing rumour of the Type 32 Frigate. Sounds like a second batch of the T31 but with bells and whistles (i.e. a 5inch gun, more Sea Ceptor and anti-ship missiles). Sounds good as the T31s will be a stop gap then sold on and the drumbeat of hulls continued at Rosyth. The ambition has to be to get up around 30 escorts to maintain the fleet at sea and not in port. Other than that this announcement probably means the rest of the MOD’s programmes being funded properly with the bolt on of cyber and some very ‘joint’ Anglo-US space and AI development. Very much the best we could hope for I think.
Overall, this is a good news. The potential for more escorts is really fantastic news in terms of maintaining a credible Carrier Strike capability.
At the expense of what though? The considerable budget hike is again, great news but it won’t fulfil everything on everyone’s wish lists. With the seeming cancellation of the Littoral Strike Ships, what does that mean for the successors to Albion, Bulwark and Ocean…?
Hopefully It will be at the expense of the large portion of Foreign Aid that gets diverted. We all know this and we all see this.
Quote from the BBC website:-
Labour MP Sarah Champion, chairwoman of the international development committee, asked Mr Johnson to “quash rumours and confirm his manifesto commitment” of spending 0.7% of national income on overseas aid, “now and going forwards”.
The PM responded by telling the Commons: “I think we can all be proud of our record on overseas aid and that will continue.”
I take that as good news, as a properly coordinated Defence / Overseas Aid effort could really push the UK’s reputation and interests globally. Of course the key word is “Coordinated”…
Cheers CR
Sarah who…? Still, apart from Keir lamely stating what’s the strategy – there will be one – Labour are on the same page, as usual with UK defence. Now, how about the SNP? Apart from (never enough) jobs for Scotland in pursuit of Indy, there’ll be no defence strategy discernable from them, CR
Read elsewhere the intention is to reduce Foreign Aid from 0.7% of GDP to 0.5%.
Good point and very sensible but that alone won’t pay for the cost of the pandemic, unfortunately. Every department will be feeling the pressure, luckily the supposedly “integrated” review should play into MoD’s hands when it comes to priorities.
The aid budget is highly important and should not be decreased. It could be spent better but it should not be got rid of.
I think we need to do a better job of diverting money out of it to fund deployments to the carribean over hurricane season and pay for a lot of Helecopters and disaster relief equipment used by the RN. Also it should pay for our QRA aircraft that track Russian bombers over Ireland. At least a squadrons worth
Why not use foreign aid budget to pay for mod time and resources when they do disaster recovery abroad? Would allow them to help defence but military cash could be spent on what’s meant to defending realm
Of course it should. Spend money if any disasters but borrowing money to send abroad is stupid
“The aid budget is highly important and should not be decreased.”
Because it is in fact a subsidy to British companies?
I said ” the large portion that gets diverted ” not the whole amount. Diverted to places other than intended or needed. India doesn’t even want it !
I agree lee
what people need are clean water, medicines, food and shelter. All something the UK are world leaders in.
I think DFID have done a great job, but have been forced into spending frivolously at times to be seen to meet the 0.7%.
I really would like to see us have a plan that helps British industry, reduces waste as well as helping those that desperately need it.
It is right that DFID should be part of the Foreign Office as I think its a key lever in our soft power.
The reputation of foreign aid has been badly tarnished despite the good work it has done. This could be improved by disqualification of any nation receiving aid if they:
All easy to legislate and we could allow emergency aid in the event of a natural disaster. To the man in street struggling on minimum wage that would be a good start.
To be more cynical include all the staff costs in administrating the budget in the 0.7%.
Get shut altogether, as India has a very successful space programme, they don’t need aid, same with Pakistan, and others on the aid gravy train.
The best replacements for the LPDs are LHDs capable of cross decking a flash ght of F35Bs allowing the RN/RM to progress expeditionary warfare
Great news today, and a much welcome boost to defence. Unexpected i must say with the hit to the economy due to COVID-19. But any increase is most welcome, still be some tough choices to make in the defence review to balance the books, and out with some of the old to fund the new. But this is a very good news day for UK defence ???
Hi Robert,
I agree. I thought we would see the axe fall at least in part on Defence given some of the comments coming out of Westminster about balancing the books recently.
Given HS2, spending on the Green Revolution and now Defence it seems this government is aiming for a New Deal approach to get the economy out of the Covid hole. I am seriously surprised they are taking this approach, finger crossed it works.
Cheers CR
I hope it does not go down the old New Deal road. That did not work. In the end the American economy got going through war and good old rearmament and scrapping Democrat beaurocracy. Likewise our rearmament got us out of the depression in the late thirties.
It actually makes a lot of sense. The last recession showed that austerity and cuts during an economic downturn are the worst thing to do. The government is the only entity that can safely spend money, so it makes sense to splash out on domestic industries to boost the economy.
Currently interest rates are low so investment is not a bad idea. It’s just making sure the investment earns a return. Plus we need to get people working who would rather be on benefits. The problem we have had in our country, and others I guess, is that growing the economy seemed to be all about us all selling cups of coffee to each other.
It’s fantastic news Robert.
Agree. Let’s stay positive.
I’m still curious what they think is suddenly not relevant.
Lots of detail to come.
Minesweepers have to be in the firing line.
Agree.
Though they will be replaced by a smaller number of multi role mother Ships operating the autonomous stuff.
Ukraine, Gulf war, Afghan showed armour and artillery are also relevant, so I’m intrigued to see how they spin it.
All bring said, I’m ecstatic at the moment.
Interesting to see how they play it come the Review. Surely they won’t bin them all at once? Can the T26 carry autonomous gear? Assuming 31s can.
Sorry, did I miss a paid for uplift in RN manning?
Oh, no, more cuts to manpower,
Hmm – that’ll work well then.
Someone is not going to be here much longer and is just blowing smoke up the back ends of people.
Yes, Putin’s agent H!!
I’m certainly not an agent of Putin and would love to see the Army cut by the under recruited PIDs and said PIDs transferred to the Royal and RN.
7000 is an awful lot of manpower the those branches are lacking and would flesh them out nicely.
Hi David, I do apologise if you thought I ment you.
I did Not mean you, ment it for another guy whom posts on here with name beginning with H.
Honestly had to check the date, I thought you’d jumped the gun on April Fools
No the news first broke last night on the BBC website…
Stunning, if delivered on.
All we need is for MoD to make proper use of the money and not p**** it up the wall a la the Arm’s £5.6b AFV programme that has delivered 0 (ZERO) vehicles!
Keeping me fingers crossed.
CR
Indeed, I’m very cross with the army.
We’ve seen at least 30 years of April Fools jokes/cuts truth be known. This is just brilliant news.
I dont blame you, he is already busting out the “tracking flights from the North Pole” material 🙂
Ello stranger! Where have you been? ?
I was Banned mate……. Banned on an Impartial site lol.
Oh! Has no idea. Welcome back.
Thank you mate, I’ve not been away though, Still been a ble to see every post. I must say that you are an absolute Star to be able to take all the Crap on here and still continue to post such great stuff despite all the “In coming ” .
? Never give in or stay quiet.
It will be interesting to see what T32 looks like.
It would make sense if it was the already rumoured follow on from the T31 but built with all the bells and whistles on it.
I would also bet that the T31’s are up specced with some canister kit as part of this as well as the T45’s getting a surface to surface capability – which has been on and off the cards for a while now. But I think we will now see this being implemented on the fast track.
Interesting titbit on the RN Twitter feed that 2x River OPV were keeping an eye on a Russian sub. Which suggest they have some means of doing this that is not publicly declared. I mean the MkI eyeball isn’t much use if the sub dives or anything……
Hi Supportive Bloke,
I agree that the T32 is most likely a T31 B2 with added kit. Whilst I would like to see the T31’s get more kit I would rather they don’t start to fiddle with the programme now that the design is fixed and contracted for.
Get them built and upgrade them later would be my preferred approach.
Interesting, point about the 2x Rivers OPV watching a Russian sub..!
Which OPV are they?
Cheers CR
I think there has been a typo, and it probably means Type 31 batch 2. Babcock are investing a lot in their Frigate building factory – able to build two vessels side by side on the basis of follow on Type 31 orders. A UK Type 31 kitted out with bells and whistles would be a bonus and something we badly need! Plus of course we can still upgrade the batch 1s.
Babcock are targeting exports also. And real hope nothing gets in the way of that. It would be great to have yard maxed out on export orders.
Was not the national plan to just keep building them and bring them into service and when we don’t want the first ones, we sell them off for export. ??
Specially if those orders were for the RN…..
I don’t think RN will fiddle with the T31 program, as getting T31 in the water on time and on budget is critical to getting T32 approved.
I believe T31 will be up armed post acceptance. It if FFBNW a range of things so it is designed for that.
Maybe Type 31 like with electric drive powered by Hydrogen.
First sentence on the MoD website pertaining to this annoucement.
Combined with the manifesto commitment of a 0.5% uplift, the total increase for Defence is a substantial £24.1 billion.
My calculations suggest this includes inflation uplift as well.
Cheers CR
Also a couple of paragraphs down this,
An additional £1.5 billion will be poured into military research – including for the Future Combat Air System.
I take this to be related to Tempest, possibly loyal wingman component? Vague, but encouraging that we will continue to push forward with this programme.
Cheers CR
Tempest is a very interesting point. It seems £billions are being sunk into this project already. Remember Typhoon? 10 years late and double the budget then we only get 5 squadrons (initially). Now things can change but we really need to ask ourselves ‘is this a project that a sovereign nation of our side can deliver?’ Because if not we need to get real before it is too late.
Yep, sanity requires we work with significant partners. We have the skills, but we need the next generation a/c to be cost-effective on numbers.
Agree. I think we have Sweden on board as a research partner but nothing beyond that. So there are three options all of whom are building a 6th gen fighter:
I’d go for Japan this time but we really need to make our minds up before the £ billions we sink into the project become wasted once we decide to work with others.
Hi Rob,
Japan has already annouced that it intends to go it alone.
I read somewhere recently that the Tempest programme may be a way for the UK to establish itself as a serious player in 6th generation fighter development. This could be used to give us a way into the US programme, although the American Congress do not seem too keen on lettring other countries on to their latest programme.
Cheers CR
Hi Rob
Having Sweden/Saab on board is probably more use than anyone else, US will want full control and Germany and France are are large part of Typhoon being late, financially probably wasn’t so much their fault. I was under the impression Japan have already been given the opportunity to join and wanted to go alone on their 6th gen.
And Germany would also prevent exports to certain countries that we like to deal with.
Think we need to stay away from the US for the Tempest!
I thought Italy was joining it as well, or is that just Leonardo?
I was reading Japan is now back in the frame. MHI are prime but they’re looking for a partner.
I think the Japanese are open to foreign companies sharing their expertise but don’t want a multi-nation project.
I think that is balanced against what happens with Bae if we don’t. If it loses interest in substantially being committed to this Country the effects are incalculable on the Country’s technological, employment, educational and many others aspects direct and indirect. The company recently made reference to these sort of effects on Britain by not committing to Tempest so I suspect for the foreseeable it will be supported with hopes of programme sharing easing the potential costs.
Yes, but it started with the French who left and this slowed development I think. And if you look at the French they ended up late with the Rafale. And cut back on initial numbers.
Good news. I imagine no-one has worked out what design the extra frigates will be just yet, except that we need more of them. Type 32 suggests they are budgeted in the same ballpark as the Type 31s rather than the Type 26s.
18 inch main armament apparently.
Triples or Quads…?
When I thought about this Type 32 frigate I looked at the issues of what is a new type or what is a new batch. A new batch is where an existing design is altered either in weapons or electronics, a new type is when there is either a completly new concept or the powerplant has been changed. With the T31s a new hull design and ship concept it would not make any sense to get a third hull design. So the T32 could be a mis speak for a batch 2 uparmed T31, or a T31 with a gas turbine and upgunned that would make it a new Type. So possibly a powerplant based on the T26, a 5 inch main gun, 24-36 Sea Ceptors and 8 canister Anti Ship Missiles all based on the T31 hull. Possibly even with a containorised Compact 4 towed array. If it is possible without to much alteration to the T26 possibly an idea could be to swap the main gun over, have the T26 with the 57mm gun and the T31/32 with the 5 inch gun. Which could save money whilst making a more logical use of ship platforms. Do we really want a T26 going on the gun line. No, they are blue water combat vessels.
What I would like to see to be honest is a Batch 2 T31 fully equipped, possibly three of these and an extra T31 Batch 1 making six and 12 Hamina type missile boats These could replace Archer class boats and give the RN a confined water capability. It could give the following type of Littoral/Confined water surface action group, 1 T31 Batch 2, 2 T31s Batch 1 and 4 Hamina type Fast Missle Boats. There would then be three groups that could be split down even further into sub groups always on a 2+1 base. It would increase the RN DDG/FFG fleet by four ships but there would be an overall massive increase in combat stregth as the Archers with there 2 GPMGs would be replaced with a Missile boat carrying a 40mm, 2 x 0.5 inch MGs, 8 Sea Ceptors and 4 RBS-15s and a good radar suite, even the possibility of a towed array designed for littoral enviroments. The overall cost for such a program would be £2.5 billion.
The Fast Solid Supply ships are already planned and budgeted for in the existing MoD budget so they do not need to come out of the extra budget however Albion/Bay class replacements do need to be thought about. My suggestion would be 2 Canberra type ships and 4 Damen Enforcer type ships. This would give 2 amphibious groups each able to land 2000 men and equipment over the beach and with its own air support. This new build Amphib capability would cost about £3 billion. Both types of vessel would be multi functional, the Canberras as escort carriers or asw carriers, the Damens as humanitarian or UAV/ROV mother ships. They would be escorted by the T31 batch 1/2 if and when needed. So total expenditure from the extra money is £5.5 billion, now if the RN could shoehorn an extra couple of billion then they could build some AIP subs based on the Japanese navy. You can get five of the Japanese subs for 2 Astutes. So possibly order 6 Taigei type subs which would cost about £2.5 billion for a total of £8 billion the RN has been totally overhauled, increased its combat strength, created ten years of shipbuilding work, created 10-15,000 jobs in the ship building and supply chains. The air support for these new build would mean an extra 20 helicopters Merlin/Wildcat and an extra 16 F35Bs for the Canberras. It could and would be argued that the Royal Marines are reverting back to small raiding forces but the Amphibs are a force multiplier for the Army. A Canberra type ship can land an Armoured Battlegroup in a single ship complete with its own air support from lift helicopters to attack helicopters and a fast jet air componant. As for the Royal Marine Strike Ship, I do not think that anyone has really looked into it, so I will try to give a list of such a ships requirements. First it needs to be able to deploy on a world wide base, with an endurance of 60 days. It would need to be able to defend itself against air attack, ship attack and fast boat swarms. It would need to have a hanger for four Merlins better yet would be four Merlins and two Apaches, two to three landing spots. It would need to have four to six RIB raiders on divits plus a well deck for 4 CB-90 type assault boats. Accomadation for ships crew and 120 Marines for 60 days plus equipment. So with the air componant it looks like a small below deck hanger and lift is needed. My suggestion would be the Dokdo type ship. Three of these would be an extra 0.75 Billion, we could however build six of these for the price of the two Canberras and give them F35B capability, two in the heavy assault role and four in the strike role. Again they could operate independently in the strike role, operate with an Amphib group as a ASW carrier, escort carrier and in the humanitarian role. Also remember that about 36% of that investment comes back to the treasury in the form of taxes. Over the planned four years of this extra investment I do not think it is wise if the extra money goes into the general pot as it will just get swallowed up, each orf the three servicies should make a proposal for there share of it, The RAF for example might want to have some extra P8s reinstate the levels of E-7s, a few extra squadrons of Typhoons and invest into Tempest. The Army might want to increase its Boxer fleet with some exta modules and update the MBT fleet, possibly even taking some out of moth balls. I think its money well spent.
We can rely on the RN continuing to spend their allotment coherently. Probably also the RAF, though they have a tendency to want the next toy before we’ve finished contracting their last model (rather like iPhones), which I put down to impressionable youth. One can only hope that the General Staff don’t splurge their proportion with nothing to show for it this time around.
The army so rarely get the chance at ordering new equipment they make a complete hash of it up when they get the chance.
Just make them a T31 with extras and get them building.
As it stood, the announcements so far were just maintaining the already below minimum, despite the spin.
With a T32 on top, that helps with the loss of the 3 T23 in 2004 and the 2010 cuts of the T22 B3s.
We’ll take the good news for now, Daniele, though re-armament is always a double-edged sword. It’s at least an admission that world events are pushing the requirement rather than us trying to milk the peace dividend for ever, hesitant steps or otherwise.
Excellent news Daniele, as you say, let’s not waste money on yet another design, make the T32 a property tooled up ’31’.
Perhaps this increase will come in time to up gun batch 1 T31?
Excellent news and quite the surprise…
A few vailed threats to ‘obsolete capabilities’ though by the defence Secretary, so Bulwark/Albion and Challenger 2, arn’t out of the danger zone yet….
Fantastic and totally unexpected! Now we can play fantasy fleets with the knowledge that some of it may actually happen!
I do hope all this money means some extra merlins as well as uparming the rest of the fleet.
Well some good news for a change, as for T32 thats new, where was that under the belt. I suspect if it was not a type error then the T32 would be a re-engined, beefed up T31 with a 5 inch gun, extra Sea Ceptors and possibly some Mk41s or A-50s. If it was just a beefed up T31 then that would be a T31 Batch 2, but with a new power plant such as a gas Turbine and two Diesels that would be seen as a new type.
However, I sometimes wonder if it would be better for the MoD if they operated tax free. From my understanding approx 36% of defence expenditure comes back to the treasury through some form of taxation. Where as the announced increase all being a welcome one is approx 12% of the currnet defence budget, by taking the MoD out of taxation that would be an automatic 36% increase.
We need to be bolder with the Type 32 frigate concept!
Driven by a electric drive, powered by Hydrogen.
All good news, but I’m a little concerned/confused.
We’re getting an uplift in the budget, which will go towards cyber and AI and all that stuff and (I believe) stand up some kind of new department to head it up. Also, apparently, the RN is getting very nearly everything on its wish list and the conservatives seem to be wanting to implement the NSS as if it’s the Bible.
But what about Tempest, CR2 LEP, Warrior upgrade, Strike, fires?
The RN was already arguably the best resourced of the branches, and now they are getting what must be the vast majority of that spending increase. I’m not against increasing our fleet numbers (although would be interested in the RN’s plans for manning them), but I hope the other major defence programmes we have going for us are not being forgotten…
Joe. IDSR is delayed as the army is still deciding what’s going to happen on their side of things.
It has not been ignored, and most details of IDSR are still to emerge.
We will, I feel, see plenty of pluses and some minus for all services.
As for WCSP, last I heard is that it might well be halved. We might end up with 1 big armoured brigade.
For the army, this review needs to arm Strike correctly and put renewed emphasis on ISTAR, artillery, and air defence.
For all the negative press about QEC from anti navy types, it’s actually the army that is in the greatest mess regards it’s equipment and force structure. All the UORs for Afghan made things much worse.
Correct I feel.
To add to Daniele’s comment. The 2020’s and 30’s will see a huge hike in demand on the Royal Navy with our world wide pivot away from Europe.
The need to expand the RN is arguably the most pressing requirement facing the MOD.
Hopefully an increase in F35 numbers and Helicopters to ramp up Carrier capability will be part of equation.
Agreed.
From whats been said there is a budget hole of £12bn over 10 years, the new money £16.5bn over four years leaves £7bn not committed to new programmes, so thats £7bn possibly towards the shortfall leaving required to find another £5bn in the following 6 years.
Joe, perhaps someone in the MOD has looked at a map of the world and realised the U.K. is actually an island and that a real challenge to the Anglo Saxons domination of the worlds oceans that has been in place for over 200 years is coming from the east. He who dominates the sea, dominates the land. In the 20th century you could add to that the air and in the 21st, space and cyber will be critical.
The U.K. is a maritime power and worldwide trading nation, not a small European focused country. From a historical perspective our preoccupation with Europe, which was required during the Cold War is totally out of step with most of our history and our future.
The British Army is rightly 3rd in line for funds and it needs to evolve and become more capable of supporting the RN and RAF across the globe. I would suggest it increases the size of the Para’s or resurrect the Commando’s and expand the SAS at the expense of some infantry battalions for a start. In my mind army numbers may need to come down further to enhance the quality, flexibility and hitting power of the force that is required to meet our future needs.
Spot on. An island nation has many strategic advantages which can be exploited with a navy. A navy can protect the land and also project itself into places a large land army cannot go.
I also think a strong navy is a very useful tool in a geopolitical way if your intention is to change your foreign policy from one fixated on Europe to one which is more global and likely to be more CANZUK orientated. Australia is concerned about China. A RN carrier group is a very valuable asset for them and might help us achieve greater economic, political industrial and defence cooperation.
This is great news but a few questions.
When will it actually be true that we return to a 24 ship escort fleet? Sometime in 2040 which is not going to resolve the current perilous state of affairs.
The RN needs those hull numbers now.
Can the type 26 and type 31 programmes be accelerated?
What of the submarine fleet. 7 SSNs is nowhere near enough despite the astute class being formidable and the Trafalgar class soldiering on. I would liked to have heard news that a batch 2 astute order perhaps with VLS for cruise missiles was being explored. We need to get back to 10 or more SSN to really face down Russia and China.
I think foreign aid budget should be scrapped and reduced to a disaster relief or humanitarian aid budget. Not £14 billion giveaway every year. Maybe £2-3 billion would be a fair amount of money. We cannot nor should we try to resolve the world problems but give aid to those facing disaster. Yes we should do that.
Use some of the saved money for a hospital ship or 2 and littoral combat/ base ships or better still a couple LPHDs.
Disagree on Aid budget. Reduce so far due to Covid, but only temporarily. It’s contribution to Soft Power is too important.
Soft, hard power and diplomacy, go hand in hand. It is how aid is spent that could be improved, not the concept.
On SSN, even if the money was there, is there capacity with Dreadnaught ramping up and the remaining Austutes? Pity, as yes more are needed.
Agree on keeping the aid budget as it is. Our soft power gives this country far more influence around the world than a extra couple of Frigates could. But an escort fleet of 24 would be very nice ?
I’m not sure that Barrow has the capacity to build any more SSN’s until the Dreadnought program starts to ramp down in decade’s time. We would also need to carefully consider if the near £2 bn and 8 both Astute would cost would be better spent on the surface fleet. Unless T23 decommissioning dates shift right and T26 & T31 construction speeds up, the escort force will actually start to drop in numbers again soon, not increase. And there is notably no mention of any new amphib ships (LSS or otherwise) – the RNs reluctant contribution to the bonfire of legacy capabilities?
The 8th astute is probably worth it on the basis that it delays the need for a successor programme to replace the Astutes by another 3 or 4 years.
My guess is that the LPDs will not be replaced like-for-like and LSS quietly dropped. This does not mean that we will not have amphibious shipping, maybe some type of multi-role support ship to replace both the Albions and Bays.
Mr Bell,
Totally agree on the sub front but I do wonder if a the RN is excepting a 2 tier frigate fleet, whether we should go for a 2tier SSN fleet and have a smaller type more dedicated to intel gathering and Special forces work to free up the astutes. My preference would be to use the O boat names again.
I don’t agree with hospital ships as their use is so limited, so personally I’d like to see an enlarged Argus with minimum 650 ward beds and 40-50 intensive care beds and similer levels of aviation facilities.
Like for like with the Albion’s again enlarged but they seem pretty good at the job.
If we get a T32, which is likely an up armed t31, then we may be looking at a three tier escort structure. More than happy for T31 to stay as a patrol frigate and not unarmed if this is the case.
The T32 is an upgraded Type 31. When you consider that we haven’t even laid down the first Type 31, why not just build 10 x Type 32?
It’s far from a 14BN giveaway, soft power is equally important as hard power, and our soft power capabilities gives us real influence around the world. and it’s only 0.7% of GDP. Astute class can already fire TLAM, so no real benefit for adding VLS, apart from even more cost.
There were hints emanating from the States at inception that, with the common missile compartment, the Columbia and Dreadnought classes would be more flexible weapon systems than current SSBN, should a need for such flexibility materialise in future.
It is a giveaway by a country with >£2trillion debt and rising. I would love to hear specific examples of what this expenditure does for Britain- exactly what crucial influence does so called soft power deliver? Hard coin, military capability and genuinely shared long term interests are what matter.
Less money spent on aid means more money needs to be spent on bullets. You can look up the DFID and what it does, and where the money goes. Soft power goes hand in hand with diplomacy, and aid, so you don’t have to use the hard power option.
So no actual examples of the benefits of soft power,just as I thought. Aid spending is just post colonial conscience salving. Read Paul Theroux for a clear eyed view of the effect of aid in Africa.
I don’t have to provide examples, I’m sure you can use Google. Not spending on foreign aid is just another short sited view, and greatly reduces Britain’s influence around the world as a force for good.
Biggest problem with ordering further Astutes is whether or not the capacity is actually there to physically build them? We still have 3 building, plus the Dreadnought and subsequent sister boats. The 4th Astute is still not in full service and has been plagued by delays and problems…….
OMG I remember you! Welcome back! Always enjoyed reading your posts.
M@
Thanks Matt. I’ll try to behave now i’m allowed back !
Now divert money wasted on the Foreign Aid budget to build, in the UK, a couple of dual purpose hospital/relief ships that could also support military operations. And fund their future manning and operations with money from the FA budget.
good news about the extra ships, but who’s going to crew them? no mention of more sailors? and not got enough to crew the ships we have now? so i hope a increase in defence spending, also means a increase in service personal!
Interesting news, i guess we have to wait to see what it actually means.
It could even be a replacement for the t31, after all the development/procurement stages are taking longer and longer, so maybe starting before the previous one has been actually created is the way forward.
Absolutely bloody fantastic news and about time we started investing properly in our forces. Despite the waste of spaces our political masters have proven this time at least they have made a solid decision that the era of a thousand cuts is over.
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Great news, my only concern is we don’t have enough crew and engineers for our current fleet, we have at least 1 x 23 & 1 x 45 cannot be manned due to staffing levels?
I’d read RN manning levels are improving.
May be they will go for less RM Cdo for more sailors.
Crewing levels for the Type-26/Type-31 and Type-4XX will be far less than the Type-23/Type-45 due to automation. That allows for more hulls without crewing costs.
Think talking about t32 is silly with howling takes uk to make decisions and build anything I think it’s just commitment of few million to an early design project for next generation let’s not get carried away with some crazy fantasy fleet 30 frigate squadron armed with 96 missles each!
Waiting for the catch; we’ve had a decade of bad news, I can’t remember the last time news was indisputably good as this appear to be
Who knew, BJ is a secret “Borrow and build yourself out of recession” Keynesian.
Im betting that’s why the king ( maker) has left the building.
building warship now is both needed from:
1)a security point of view ( economic, resource and global warming Stressors are going to turn the next 50 years into a last alliance standing sort of geopolitical shitstorm. What’s never mentioned in the media is most of the compressive risk assessments on global warming put warfare up there with no water and food as one of the big killers as places like China will need to move somewhere).
2) economic, we need to build our way out of this pandemic.Its the only way, this disease is literally a perfect western liberal democracy ecconomy recking ball. most of us Sad types who actually had to think through pandemic responses never really twigged we would get a virus specifically sculpted to utterly destroyed economies, while not actually doing Upchurch to the majority of the population. Who would have dreamed up this Bstard…infects everyone, but does not seem to express any symptoms in a lot of people, the rest get a mix of symptoms that could be any other infectious disease in circulation and just the right amount of people get hospitalised to crash and burn any health system In short order, at the same time killing 1%, which is a perfect mix of not seeming such a great personal risk as to scare people into compliance with good IPC, but from a population point of view will kill some many as to cause traumatic responses from the population.
All in all glad to see a PM calling for the United Kingdom to have more warships and the most powerful navy in Europe ( I mean we did have anyway, but I never got the impression our political leaders actually wanted to highlight the fact)
Type 32 does sound like a batch 2 T31. But the BAE Leander hull at 110m might also be a contender. I reckon the design is oven ready – a stretched River 2 just sitting on the computer – and at 110m it could be built even in Appledore I think. Might make more sense to make the T32 the light patrol frigate and upgrade T31 to carry the 5in, more Sea Ceptors and NSM missiles. Also I recall Leander had a diesel electric drive so it might make a better ASW asset. Then the RN would have achieved its C1, C2, C3 vision? 🙂
I cannot see Leander (unless as the class name). Another hull means more logistics and training whereas the RN with Type -31 and an enhanced version as Type-32 will have three major platforms. The cost difference in a 110m v 130m vessel is just the steel but size invokes weight margins over the vessel’s life.
On second thoughts could it be a venator type or a completely new design?? Although up spec t31still more likely.
Type 31 but with a lot more bells and whistles is far more likely, yeah.
Also means that if we’re building 10 Type 31s rather than 5 then it makes them cheaper and more efficient to build. Makes export sales a lot more likely, too.
Min armament should be 5″ gun, 24 Sea Ceptors and 8 anti ship missiles, to make it a credible escort for a carrier group. Ideally a few more Merlins or Wildcats added to the fleet, too.
Agreed. Also a containerised towed array sonar would make it a top class escort.
The RN are also going to need a follow on to the Sampson radar. How about a triangular array of AESA panels? Each panel giving a 120 degree field of view, to be fixed to the top of a ships mask.
About time.
Let’s get on with.
Having only half-a-dozen poorly-armed active Major Surface Combatants is a joke for a sea-faring / island nation. Especially with a fishing war brewing.
Great news on another 5 frigates. Much needed of course and us lot get to speculate on what a T32 will be exactly. I’m betting it still won’t have enough guns and missiles for some on here but that’s life. 😉
While I can’t see it, it would be great if we could get a few more submarines, doesn’t have to be that big, or nuclear, in fact big and nuclear aren’t the best for doing the sneaky stuff. It would let the A boats do the deep water stuff too.
It would be good for the UK shipbuilding resilience if the new ships were built in the North East of England.
I totally agree with you about the A boats, a fleet of 10 for example would be achievable and prelude to the new class.
Upholder type 3 is also a possibility
BAE has the monopoly on boats and although I like the idea of conventional (AiP), armed UUAVs will be way of the future in the littoral. It also is a means to increase hulls too.
Hopefully they will be built in either England or Northern Ireland. Too many ships being built in Scotland at the expense of other ship yards in the uk. If the Scots get their way and get independence the ruk is screwed when it comes to ship building.
If we can’t crew them then there is no point in having them. I’m all in favour of extra ships but only if we can crew them.
here! here!
Absolutely brilliant. It’s about time we went back to being the best navy in the world. The only way to defend against the socialist.
About time, this investment is long overdue
Welcome news but when will there be a lot 2 order for 48 F35Bs?
Yet the claim that the Type-32 “will not necessarily be based on the Type 31 design” is farcical and needs to be called out. The capital settlement is four years to bridges a fiscal black hole on current procurement. The cost of a cleansheet frigate to in service would add huge cost, delay and more logistics.
If the Type-31 comes in on budget , the MoD has £750m in the kitty to bring them into service that could see more GFE. Hopefully, upgraded Harpoon with Block II+ kits as per the USN from the Duke’s (also for the Type-45 and to equip Poseidon), as well as a further 12 Seaceptor for 24 in total.
If on budget, it gives MoD confidence to order a Batch 2 Type-31 based on a hot production line (aka an enhanced Type-32). This means economies of scale and thus exports. Unlike others, I believe the 57mm/40mm mix to be good. With the Type-45/Type-26/Type-4XX, there will be 14 vessels for NGS. So, 10 Type-31/Type-32s offering a mix of calibres is excellent for layered defence.
What I hope the Type-32 will have, is 36 Seaceptor (with CAMM-ER in that mix), I-SSGW (or upgraded Harpoon), a COTS VDS (eg Captas-2) with ASW torpedo launchers.
That means 19 escorts for Faslane (noting UUAVs will likely be ordered this decade to augment the SSNs) and Carrier Strike. The 5 Type-31s would go East of Suez and independent tasking (but still useful in a task force if needed: especially the mix of 57mm/40mm).
MCM, I feel, will go to ISO based modules that could see additional Rivers to act as motherships that they are proving with the RMs.
To be fair though any claim relating to Type 32 is pure speculation as none of us knows anything yet.
Hi David I’d like the current mcmv fleet to be replaced with something more like Belgian & Dutch MCM Motherships and there armed with Bofors 40Mk4
Having been part of the build process for both T45 and T26 propulsion motors this could be welcoming news to an industry that was practically on its knees 18 months ago.
To add to earlier post about T26 and T45, forgot to mention the two aircraft carriers as well, LOTS of work done in Rugby on all these vessels.
It’s good news, but not enough. We need a wholesale rethink of funding, how and under what circumstances we give our taxpayers cash away!
We either have to face facts as a nation or live within our means. The tax base has reduced from 2004 with each government wanting to show you can earn ever more amounts of cash without being taxed, if you are from the section of society that has children and are at the level where you don’t pay tax then it’s bingo! We need to stop this giveaway, live here and pay nothing outlook, if you earn a certain amount, you pay tax, simple as that, and I include company directors and the self employed in that. The country needs funds and not fund gained through borrowing or printing money, both need reducing.
The lessons we get hit with repeatedly never get learned. We are an island, the only way we can protect of supply lines is to have a good Navy. The ship count should be 30+. We need to start building diesel subs again. They are far cheaper than their nuclear counterparts and there’s no reason a “Cruise missile sub,” (or the better options) cannot be built for home fleet protection/strike.
The Tank force is a shadow of itself. You can bomb your enemy to kingdom-come, but you need boots on the ground with real armour protecting them.
That is why I propose a 1p in the £1 tax increase to help bring the NHS funding back up towards 2007 levels and another 1p in the £1 for defence while also cutting our Foreign Aid budget to 0.5℅ in the form of goods, machinery or materials etc from UK manufacturers only. If there’s work to be done, the contract is given to a UK competent supplier who can then hire and educate local workers. For far too long nations have had cash from the UK only to purchase the equipment from China, Japan, Germany or the USA.
Incredibly the latest figures (2018) show the UK’s aid spending in China rose by £11.7million to £55.6million, while in India it increased by £4.9million to £95million, Pakistan rose from £84.3million to £109.6million. Kenya had £48millionn rise to £72.5million. Even South Africa, a nation that has underground riches the UK can only dream of (unless we get our heads clear and start Fracking like the US does both cutting our reliance on Middle East Oil and gain much needed income exporting the stuff) had £40million in 2014, £15million in 2015 and while cash is no longer given, the UK DFiD now “match funds” projects, this just four nations figures for Overseas Aid published.
However, what does China need the UK’s cash for? Even though we’ve been told we no longer fund them? Pakistan purchased 87 of Russia’s new Troop Carrier for £104million, India has ordered its 3rd Aircraft Carrier and purchased 140 Rafale fighters instead of the Typhoon from BAe (not forgetting their space programme). Kenya has paid China to install a new national Telephone network for £106million. The UK is paying 50% towards a new pipeline in South Africa that costs, £89million. They awarded the contract to an Australian company Aurecon, although UK Civil Engineering giant Balfour Beatty bid for the project losing out as they bid £2.1million more than the winners. Once all three stages are complete, the UK taxpayer has matched funded some £147.3million over 5 years. Yet we failed to add a requirement that in every insistence, if funding came from the UK government, a UK business was to carry out the work, subject to ability and competences being satisfactory.
it is Fantastic News this is the only PM who has look after the Navy. have been saying this for few years when the cold finish 1990 we should of not cut our navy we are a small country not like the 2 Supper powers who could cut they navy down we should of keep a Strong navy cos over the years we cut and cut un till we could cut no more in my eyes the cold war is back on well not that it stop Russians China USA they all Re building yes in no we will never have the size of the navy we hard we dont have to Ships are more power full to day get our Ship yards open best in the Would. Thank you Boris.