Sikorsky is pitching Polish-built Black Hawk helicopters for the UK’s New Medium Helicopter (NMH) requirement, reported FlightGlobal here.

First reported by Dominic Perry here, the S-70M was proposed in response to a request for information from the Ministry of Defence submitted on the 9th of December.

Lockheed Martin also tweeted about the proposal.

“The Black Hawk helicopter’s defined military design, latest-gen systems, proven combat effectiveness and multi-mission capabilities make it best choice for the UK’s NMH requirement, especially when compared to aircraft originally designed for non-military, civil missions.”

In addition, Australia has formally requested advice from the U.S. government to potentially acquire as many as 40 Black Hawk helicopters amid concerns about its MRH90 Taipan fleet.

It was reported back in 2009 that Defence ministers spurned three separate deals to buy American Black Hawk helicopters which would have helped to plug the dangerous shortage then facing British troops in Afghanistan, you can read more about that here.

The New Medium Helicopter programme

The New Medium Helicopter Programme will see four of the medium-sized helicopters currently in service across the armed forces replaced by one new helicopter, say the British Army.

UK’s ‘New Medium Helicopter Programme’ detailed

It is understood that the helicopters will be operated jointly by the Army and RAF under Joint Helicopter Command.

According to a news release:

“The announcement was made in the Defence Command Paper. It will form part of the Army’s programme of transformation, Future Soldier, which will deliver an Army that is leaner, lighter, faster to respond, and more effectively matched to current and future threats. The New Medium Helicopter Programme will see four of the medium-sized helicopters currently in service across Defence replaced by one new helicopter. This will include the Bell 212 that is used by the Army Air Corps in the jungle areas of Brunei.”

Work on the programme is at an early stage with effort primarily focused on developing and refining key user requirements. Details in relation to the procurement strategy, basing locations, fleet size, delivery schedule and organisational structure are all being assessed, say the Army.

Tom has spent the last 13 years working in the defence industry, specifically military and commercial shipbuilding. His work has taken him around Europe and the Far East, he is currently based in Scotland.
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Mark
Mark
2 years ago

So along with the Airbus and Leonardo and now black hawk is this a 3 horse race now?
I wonder What the pilots and soldiers would prefer to have?

Combat_wombat
Combat_wombat
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Possibly, but even if they chose blackjack, they could be built and assembled on Leonardo’s line in yeovil like they did with the UK build apaches that were built under licence from boeing that way you can also use wastelands as the maintenance centre, it’s also just down the road from Yeovilton so it makes bringing them into service very easy

Combat_wombat
Combat_wombat
2 years ago
Reply to  Combat_wombat

*Blackhawk

Tim Hirst
Tim Hirst
2 years ago
Reply to  Combat_wombat

It could but given the small requirement of less than 50 helicopters building in the U.K. will drive up the price. It may make sense to build the 149 in the U.K. if it becomes the only line for the military variant. For the others it’s an on cost, an offset deal would likely be better VFM.

Brom
Brom
2 years ago

I thought there was a requirement for them to be built here?

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
2 years ago
Reply to  Brom

There is, Lockheed are hoping that cheap Polish labour and a commitment to producing spare parts/maintenance logistics hub in the UK can offset the lack of direct economic content. They have also bid for a similar Czech requirement with a build in Poland and fit-out in the Czech Republic offer.

Tams
Tams
2 years ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

It should get their offer kicked to the ground. Very bold of them to try that.

Not that the Blackhawk and tying us even more into the American weapons industry is a good idea anyway.

PRJ
PRJ
2 years ago

Blackhawk’s are fabulous. A very smooth ride, robust and interoperable.

AlexS
AlexS
2 years ago

Too old. Very big footprint for the capacity.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

Australia has different needs to the UK

Sean
Sean
2 years ago
Reply to  AlexS

Agreed, the USA is already well into a competitive programme to find a replacement for its Black Hawks.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Sean

Yeah the US Army UH-60A Black Hawks are supposed to retire soon, aren’t they?

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Replaced with new build bLACK hAWKS

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Sean

USA and the UK have signed into the future vertical lift program which is some 10 years away, Looking at the Merlin replacement, But USA just ordered 50 new Black Hawks. so old design but proven

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  AlexS

wouldn’t they be Brand new builds, How old is the Black HAWK compared to the super puma and the chinook and the apache.
Old Proven design that works or a new Show pony that doesn’t AKA AJAX

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 years ago

The only problem I can see with buying Blackhawk is Yeovil closing or being downgraded. If that can be solved then in my opinion Blackhawk is the way to go. If not I just can’t see the UK giving up that capability.

Chris
Chris
2 years ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Yes. If maintenance and refurbishment is carriedout in the UK, I think it is a sensible option.
We could even adapt it for British built engines, just like the Phantom.

john melling
john melling
2 years ago

I prefer a European option over a US one!

Jack
Jack
2 years ago
Reply to  john melling

Why ? (and it is built in Poland anyway)

John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack

I’m with Blackhawk all the way … It will be far cheaper than the other two options, capable, robust and thoroughly tested and upgraded. Leonardo effectively means an Italian designed Helicopter, assembled in an Italian owned factory, Wildcat was the UK’s last gasp at domestic Helicopter design and production…. The Eurocopter effort will be much the same as Leonardos, not robust enough with extensive composites and over complex. The Merlin HC3 was found to be wanting in Afghanistan, battle damage proving tricky to patch in the field, while the Chinook could be simply patched and back into service. Blackhawk can… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  John Clark

Leonardo have promised to move the whole AW149 production line to the U.K. and make it the primary line for both the U.K. and any foreign orders.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

that would be a huge incentive as a lot of money and jobs

John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Hi Jonathan, My problem with the AW149 is that by the time you factor in UK specific modifications (and the massive effort that will be, it always is) then set up the UK line, it will probably be double the unit price of Blackhawk, if not more. The AW149 is a modern design, so composite construction and a heavy reliance on sophisticated avionics, this has proven a problem already with the RAF Merlin (before they went to the FAA). In the harsh conditions of Afghanistan, the Merlins were found to be rather fragile and maintenance intensive. The Chinook on the… Read more »

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  John Clark

Afghanistan bluntly is irrelevant as the war in the Afghanistan is over

John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

So operating an asset in harsh conditions is irrelevant you say?

An interesting take on procurement, you don’t work at Abbey Wood by any chance😉

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  John Clark

I don’t

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

so fond of Uk products your Account photo is of an Eagle, whats the weather like in Lenigrade Comrade. PMSL

AlexS
AlexS
2 years ago
Reply to  John Clark

AW 189 are rated to operate even in Siberia.
http://www.sakhalinenergy.ru/en/news/5786/

HM Coast Guard besides UK uses them in the Falklands for SAR. You can check a videos in Youtube.

Eesdl
Eesdl
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

Are you aware of the problems BIH /AAR had with the 189 – not forgetting UKSAR issues – why do you think Coastguard had to operate the S92?

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Crap Answer why Merlin was poor as no one asked IF WE GO HERE

John From Don
John From Don
2 years ago
Reply to  John Clark

The RAF didn’t want Merlin anyway, so they acted like petulant children with them. They were pleased they offloaded them to the FAA.

Merlins are great and excel in ASW and SAR

Eesdl
Eesdl
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan

They had previous ‘promised’ to build the UKSAR 189 in UK but didn’t

AlexS
AlexS
2 years ago
Reply to  John Clark

What you talking about John? Contrary to what you think these Leonardo helicopters are also in use as civilians, Blackhawk could never get that intensity of use. This is the civilian version AW 189 from a General Electric PR. “We were among the first operators in the world to take delivery of the AW189 and are very proud to maintain our position as the AW189 fleet leader worldwide, offering a diverse range of offshore flights in the North Sea,” said Susanne Hessellund, CEO at Bel Air Aviation. “The fact that we have now flown more than 5,000 hours on the… Read more »

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  AlexS

Flying a shuttle service from an airport to a Oil Platform, is one thing, doing it Under fire and under harsh conditions and working beyond extremes is expected. NH90 is failing under these very conditions it passed as a show pony.

John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  AlexS

I take your point Alex, but there’s a world of difference between civilian use and military use, they don’t tend to get shot at for one… The main point being, by the time the 149 has been adapted to MOD specs (lets not pretend this will either be cheap or quick) with military grade avionics, communications, Link 16, armour protection etc etc, it will be a very expensive helicopter indeed. Then factor in setting up a UK production line. You end up with a hugely expensive helicopter, that can no more than a Blackhawk can do a half its cost,… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS
2 years ago
Reply to  John Clark

O see changing of goal posts…

Why AW 149 needs to be “adapted” to MoD specs and Blackhawk do not need to?

You can build AW 149 in Italy too.

John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  AlexS

Good question Alex, why would the 149 need to be modified and the Blackhawk not? Well, for the same reason we are buying AH64E’s in exactly the same spec as the US Army. We would buy standard UH60M’s and hook into the enormous savings of large scale US orders, pre written training manuals we can effectively copy and paste into our own training and a huge supply and logistics system. The 149 would require considerable work to bring it up to a bespoke MOD spec. It would require modified avionics, with all the various bells and whistles, armour etc. I… Read more »

FreshMike
FreshMike
11 months ago
Reply to  Jack

The interesting bit it the Polish AirForce has bought 32 AW149 🙂 .. but they are also buying Apache’s-E

Last edited 11 months ago by FreshMike
Phil Chadwick
Phil Chadwick
2 years ago
Reply to  john melling

Why? Such a strange thing to say..

eclipse
eclipse
2 years ago
Reply to  Phil Chadwick

Agreed. Had he said “UK over us” I would be of the same view, but I don’t see the difference between buying a European helicopter or an American one.

John
John
2 years ago
Reply to  eclipse

Only if you’re under the dillusion that Europe is a better ally than the US.

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  john melling

Yeah Right any EU is a french pile of Chinese parts

Mr Mark Franks
Mr Mark Franks
2 years ago

Blackhawk is a robust and proven design and still used by the US Military. Its payload is impressive and can carry a load out of missiles, rockets and extended range fuel tanks. It was designed to be air transportable is proven to fit inside a C17. is tried and tested In AAR. The Australians have expressed an interest the uk could combine an order with the Aussies, it does not necessarily mean production in Poland that could be negotiated. Yeovil is now part of Leonardo and will end up as a refurb and upgrade facility. Westland was sometimes referred to… Read more »

Combat_wombat
Combat_wombat
2 years ago
Reply to  Mr Mark Franks

Not just military circles, I always called its wastelands when I was working there

Challenger
Challenger
2 years ago

Hmm, Blackhawk would either be built in the US or under licence which would bump up the cost and complexity.

It’s increasingly controversial to see large amounts of potential tax revenue and other economic benefits flow off-shore when UK industry could be supported.

It has to be either the Leonardo or Airbus offerings, built here and largely as it comes rather than extensively adapted for military use.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Challenger

No, it wouldn’t be

The RAF don’t need it as they have the CH-47 Chinook The Royal Navy want UAVs for the tanker and AEW roles and the AW101 Merlin HC.4 is suitable for COD The V-22 is too expensive

Last edited 2 years ago by Knight7572
Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

With the recent Failings within the Army Procurement, the MOD is trying to reframe from Purchasing un-proven Platforms. V-22 Was considered by the Navy but falls under Transport and was vry expensive and didn’t like seawater. AW101 Merlin OUT OF SERVICE is 2030. and cannot carry a F35 ENGINE so not big enough for COD they work around COD as RFU will always be going for fuel. AW149 is a large Business platform, Airbus H175M as above Black Hawk Sikorsky S-92 the concern is that the US future vertical Lift programme which th e UK has signed into as an… Read more »

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

The AW101 Merlin OSD is 2040 and the AW149 is proven

The S-92 is a death trap of a machine as 31 have been involved in accidents and the S-70 is likely to close to its development limit

The S-70, B-52, Arleigh-Burkes, C-130, They’re so old that development life is limited

Last edited 2 years ago by Knight7572
John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

The AW149 is in no way proven Knight, it hasn’t been in any shooting wars or operated to its limits under fire with troops on the ground depending on it.

It stands a very good chance of winning though, as political interference will probably force it through ahead of a common sense, off the shelf, combat proven procurement … AGAIN!

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  John Clark

Have you considered that the UK doesn’t want an obsolete 50-year-old helicopter that the US is starting to get rid of and working on its replacement

Eesdl
Eesdl
1 year ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Wow – you are so ignorant it is scary. Just praying you are no where near Abbey Wood or have a say in any procurement !
Jolly Green 2 just being developed (BlackHawk)
UH60 support to 2070
CH47, F-16 and F-15 all older than Black Hawk and still
Lead their field.
If an AW149 is chosen then you’ll be the only one in the Battle Field – if it gets there!

James Fennell
James Fennell
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

We need a defence industry. Army will go all starry-eyed about Blackhawk having watched a lot of movies and seen them in Afghanistan – but they need to be built in Yeovil. The design is old and will be replaced in US service in he 2030s, and AW149 is brand new. Forget Blackhawk Down, think Yeovil Up. And AW149 is proven and in service and its little brother AW139 saves lives around our shores everyday for the Coastguard and was chosen by the USAF recently to replace their Bell 412s as Grey Wolf. The Aussies have already operated UH60 and… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by James Fennell
Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  James Fennell

There is a reason we chose the Merlin for the Royal Navy

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  James Fennell

The USAF operates Bell UH-1N Twin Hueys not Bell 412s

Eesdl
Eesdl
1 year ago
Reply to  James Fennell

You are aware of the extensive issues with GreyWolf and latest BlackHawk supported and being further developed to 2070?

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
2 years ago
Reply to  Challenger

Lockheed are bidding built in Poland and spare parts/maintenance logistics hub in the UK to try and recoup some of those lost economic contribution points.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
2 years ago
Reply to  Challenger

AW149 makes better sense, modern design but an evolution of the AW139, 16 troops vs the 11 of the Black Hawk, longer legs and more modern avionics.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Yeah the AW149 has a capacity of 12-18

James Fennell
James Fennell
2 years ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Agreed.

Challenger
Challenger
2 years ago
Reply to  Challenger

Ah OK, so shall we just not bother making anything in the UK anymore? Buy off the shelf and just have a service based economy rather than developing skills, providing high quality jobs and directing tax revenue back into the treasury?

Something like the AW149 is perfectly adequate as a Puma replacement. There is no clear requirement for Osprey and it’s support costs are ruinous!

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Challenger

Yeah frankly overreliance on foreign nations is a dangerous thing as the pandemic has shown

the AgustaWestland Factory is still around remember

Last edited 2 years ago by Knight7572
John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Quite right, well that works re Helicopters if you happen to be Italian anyway…..

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Only an assembly line now doesn’t produce in house

Eesdl
Eesdl
1 year ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Leonardo will have enough to do with UAS, Wildcat, 101 and development work for next gen rotary. Putting all eggs in one basket does not sure-up defence industry. How about if an undated ‘Black Hawk’ aircraft can be made in UK at a fraction of the OEM price so MOD gets the numbers it needs without compromising capability?
You are aware that neither the AW149 or H175 have progressed very far along the ‘militarisation’ race?. The NMH is required this decade not the next!

Damo
Damo
2 years ago
Reply to  Challenger

I’m with you on this

Rob Young
Rob Young
2 years ago
Reply to  Challenger

We can’t make everything ourselves. What we need to do is decide our priorities. If we have a small requirement, better to buy off the shelf than pay twice the price. Yes, we need to support British industry, yes, we should be as self sufficient as possible – but not at the cost of only being able to afford half as much kit as we need.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 years ago
Reply to  Challenger

Jay, are you saying that we can’t buy European kit because of Brexit?

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Yeah what’s wrong with buying european as the US is not really reliable

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 years ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Brexit meant we don’t want to be a vassal state of the EU. But we don’t want to be the 51st state of the US either. We should do the smart thing. The Italians have been reliable partners, they respect themselves and they respect the UK. The Leonardo offer to transfer all AW149 production to Yeovil is generous. HM Coastguard use the AW139, that’s validation enough of reliability. Leonardo are offering an opportunity to create lots of jobs and rebuild longterm UK skills in an industry which ought to be on our strategic list. The Italians have more faith in… Read more »

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Do we really want to buy from France when right now the french politician at the top seems to have a vendetta

Last edited 2 years ago by Knight7572
Paul.P
Paul.P
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Are you referring to the H175 offer from Airbus?

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul.P

yeah

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

I don’t see the Airbus offering as a valid competitor. Dark horse. Very low sales. I don’t blame them for making a bid. In fairness they still committed to Broughton after Brexit. The German influence within Airbus might be behind the bid…You never know…

AlexS
AlexS
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul.P

. HM Coastguard uses AW 189 which is the civilian variant of AW 149.

While there are commonalities with AW139 they are different projects since AW 139 was born as civilian and then militarised. AW 149 was born as military project and then “civilianised”

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 years ago
Reply to  AlexS

Good background. Thx.

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Coast Guard has a mixed fleet, and flying with 3 people all day is not the same as 14 under fire

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

Understood. Affordable, reliable, available, endurance, all day in bad weather, over water and proven rescue are not to be ignored. As to resilience under fire….Black Hawk down?

Mike
Mike
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Name me a single helicopter that’s survived an RPG hit to the tailrotor!
There were a number of other Blackhawks that survived numerous hits from small arms fire and that managed to get themselves back to places of safety…now that’s resilience under fire

Last edited 2 years ago by Mike
Paul.P
Paul.P
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Just playing devils advocate; making the point that any helicopter is by definition a big, slow moving, vulnerable target. In my view adequate levels of redundancy and armour protection against small arms fire can be assessed from what has been learned from the experience of other machines and incorporated in a new design. I wouldn’t see absence of actual battle damage experience as a selection stopper. Modern manpads would be a challenge for any model. I would have thought the selection criteria would need to focus on situational awareness, defensive aids and shock absorption / passenger protection in a crash… Read more »

dave12
dave12
2 years ago

We need to keep Westland going so many companies and jobs tide up with that place.

John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  dave12

I know what you are saying Dave, but that thinking has led to ineffective defence spending in the past, instead of asking the military what it wants, the decision is always political, it’s the tail wagging the dog if you will.

It leads to serious delays and massive programme overspending, we see it over and over again.

It needs to a decision driven by military requirements, ask them what they want and supply it.

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
2 years ago
Reply to  dave12

As much as it pains to say so, Westland’s future appears little more than as a badge engineer.
Yet the demand for rotorcraft seems only likely to increase, if Russia & China are our yardstick, such that the cost of unduly complex and potentially unreliable helicopters could not be justified, particularly in the utility role.
On that basis, I’d prefer to see Leonardo effectively out of the picture, if production of a US replacement could be negotiated at Yeovil. We’ve achieved most of that with Chinook & Apache.

John From Don
John From Don
2 years ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

Leonardo own Yeovil capiche?

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
2 years ago
Reply to  John From Don

Yeh, John, had way earlier capiche(d) and was trying to think beyond moving the pawn. How long will Leonardo want Yeovil if we didn’t chose AW149. Obviously no problem if they’re happy to keep the site whilst we built Black Hawks. Your knowledge on this will be sppreciated, please.
KRs

John From Don
John From Don
2 years ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

They have to retain a capability, like with BAE in A/C and Subs

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  dave12

Trouble is look at their delivery of Crowsnest, and you understand its no longer the production hub it was. and the AW1149 Is a show pony painted Green, the same as the H175, and you have to question why Airbus not pushing the NH90 apart from we know why.

Sikorsky S-92 is imported and operated by Bristow, but maybe a little on the large side of Medium AKA Merlin size

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

The Merlin covers the size of the S-92 so that is not needed

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

i did say it was on the large side S-92 is another Oil Platform show pony, but is better than the Aw149

John From Don
John From Don
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

But wasn’t some of that Thales?

As Leonardo build NH-90 with Airbus, you would think it would have been offered, but I suppose they all know we don’t want to go from bad to worse

AlexS
AlexS
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

“Sikorsky S-92 is imported and operated by Bristow, but maybe a little on the large side of Medium AKA Merlin size”

AW 189(civilian version) are also operated by Bristow, in fact it is their main SAR helicopter. Deployed even in Falklands.
AW 149 was born as military helicopter.

Canadians are having troubles with their S-92. One of CH148 went down because autopilot engaged due to a faulty code killing 6 crew of a Canadian frigate.

Tams
Tams
2 years ago
Reply to  dave12

While this is absolutely true, we also need to be vigilant that they don’t overcharge us (more than the increased cost of using UK labour and location) or worse deliver a poor product.

Of course, that being under our own jurisdiction does curtail the absolute worst.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago

The AW149 is more likely if I’m being honest

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Concerns over the suitability of the AW149, Its not Army prefered choice.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

Remember this for the RAF too and you’ve not said what they want nor do you say what the British army prefer?

its gonna have to do SAR as the Bell 412EP Griffin HAR.2 is one it has to replace

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

Well, that’s it then….Warrior, Ajax, AS90 replacement…the army has a string of credible procurement successes…

Klonkie
Klonkie
2 years ago

Hi Daniele

Mate , how peculiar is the timing of this announcement?
This is the very subject we were discussing 2or 3 days ago. Looks like your wish my come true!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Hi K.

Doubt it, sadly.

Industry, politics and jobs always takes precedence over affordable OTS kit that works that the military want and need.

I believe the army has been interested in Blackhawk for years.

Look at Ajax. Built in a tractor factory in an underdeveloped area with no history of armoured vehicle production from Spanish kits. Made a nice headline for D Cameron though.

Ian M
Ian M
2 years ago

Hi Daniele, just to be pedantic; the factory on Merthyr Tydfil is an ex fork lift truck (Linde) factory. Whether an area has a history of AFV production is kind of moot nowadays due to the mobility of the workforce. Only the first 100 platforms were pre-assembled in Seville, the rest are built from a bare hull up now.
cheers
Ian

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  Ian M

Morning Ian.

Thanks, understood. From what I have read here about the quality of the hulls coming over from Spain I guess that is good news that the rest are built here!

Ian M
Ian M
2 years ago

Hi Daniele, GD still receive the bare hulls (just metal boxes) from Spain.

Hermes
Hermes
2 years ago

Going with Airbus to protect airbus jobs in UK and secure the next generation of Med MultiRole Helicopter. Its probably the choice Number 1.
(https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-to-develop-new-medium-multi-role-helicopter/)

The AW149 is a great beast and can be a good choice, but without long terms programs like Airbus.
Imo its the choice Number 2.

And the blackhawk is an old horse, its latest version seem to doesnt make much better than a NH90 in availability on field…
Maybe the less costly at T time, but the jobs involved in UK with Leonardo and Airbus make the Blackhawk choice probably the most costly…

Last edited 2 years ago by Hermes
Paul42
Paul42
2 years ago

Blackhawk is the best option on the table. Its a tough, battleproven highly adaptable design that can carry additional fuel tanks and multiple weapons fit, and is cost effective to run with superior availability. Roll on a Seaham order for the Navy to replace our ageing Merlins….

Last edited 2 years ago by Paul42
Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul42

No

People clearly ignore the blunt fact that the Black Hawk is ancient as its design is nearly 50 years old, frankly, the UK wants something more modern and let’s not forget it was proposed 3 times to the UK and all 3 times it was rejected as the most infamous attempt was the WS-70 Black Hawk offer in the 1980s and they rejected it after the military and political requirements had changed

Last edited 2 years ago by Knight7572
Paul42
Paul42
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Australia spent 3 Billion on the NH90, as a replacement for Blackhawk, now Blackhawk is being purchased to replace NH90, what does that tell you?

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul42

That Clearly, The UK dodged 2 bullets by…

walking away from the NH90 program and upgrading the Royal Air Force’s Westland Puma to HC Mark 2, upgrading the Royal Navy’s Westland Lynx to HMA Mark 8 and the British Army’s Westland Lynx to AH Mark 9 and keeping the Commando Sea Kings and replacing the Royal Navy’s Westland Sea Kings with AgustaWestland AW101 Merlins

buying the Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow as the AgustaWestland WAH-64D Apache AH.1 for the British Army

The UK was part of the program that built this NH90 disaster of a helicopter

Hermes
Hermes
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Yeah the NH90 is very troublesome…
But the latest blackhawk seem to not be more brilliant with just 5% more availbility on average, it’s clearly not super…

I dont know the costs of the H175 nor the AW149.
But at least with them, you have UK jobs involved so a part of the costs can be “absorbed”, even if not directly.

They are also more modern and capable.

Going for some H225M can also be a good option if you want to wait for the next european programs in the coming years.

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul42

That the Australians can’t assemble helicopters.

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Yes agreed Black Hawk is old but Super Puma is older, Chinook Is an old platform. and AW149 is is 10 years old, So age-old design is not an issue. capability in modern Avionics suite and UK is signed into the Future Vertical Lift Program with the US.

But cheapest Bid will win, as always and we have another AJAX

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

Yes but puma is older by a handful of years ( around 3 years difference) they are the same 50 year old generation of rotor, so why would you replace your 50 year old design airframes for more 50 year old design airframes.

John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Age is irrelevant with helicopter design, look at Chinook Johnathan, it’s 60 odd years old and still as vital to the armed forces today as it’s always been.

Helicopters like Chinook and Blackhawk have been refined for decades.

Until we move to the next generation of rotor craft, that are still only in early demonstrator stage of development at this point and will likely not be in production and fielded until the late 2030’s, it’s a tough proven battlefield hauler is what’s needed.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul42

-_- All the Royal Navy warships in service and under construction are designed to use the AW101 Merlins or AW159 Wildcats so bluntly why waste money on the MH-60 Seahawks when we have something that does the job adequately and on the redesign work

Also the Royal Navy aren’t planning to replace the Merlin until the 2040s

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Merlin OUT OF SERVICE DATE IS 2030, 8 years.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

No, it’s not!

In June this year, it was announced that the AW101 Merlin out of service date for the Royal Navy was moved back to 2040

The AW101 Merlin HM.2 AEW is expected to go in 2029

But the AW101 Merlin HM.2 and AW101 Merlin HC.4/HC.4A are not scheduled to go until 2040

Last edited 2 years ago by Knight7572
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Good job too, that 2030 date was ridiculous.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago

yeah the merlin replacement is still a decade or more away

Bob
Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

Original OSD was 2030, now very much being treated as 2040.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul42

Would you like to buy some Centurion Tanks? Tough battleproven, highly adaptable design that can carry additional fuel tanks and multiple weapons fit.

OldSchool
OldSchool
2 years ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

If they’re to replace Ajax – yes😂.

John Clark
John Clark
2 years ago
Reply to  OldSchool

😂😂😂🤣

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
2 years ago

What is wrong with the Merlin? It cannot be age, the Blackhawk is old as well!

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

There is nothing wrong with the Merlin as the UK builds reliable stuff

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Why would we need Blackhawk’s then?

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Exactly people think we should replace Merlin with Black Hawk

Tom Keane
Tom Keane
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

The people ‘touting’ that (and certain other idea’s) should be replaced themselves.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

yeah i already highlight other flaws with that logic

Nigel Gates
Nigel Gates
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

You seem to be a little confused here. Nobody is suggesting replacing Merlin, NMH has nothing to do with Merlin. And you assertion that Merlin is reliable is clearly not based on any knowledge of its use in the RN, where availability is and always has been a problem. As for Black Hawk being old, so is Chinook – and that is still the best choice for heavy lift. What makes a good battlefield helicopter is good design features that mean it can operate well and survive, which Black Hawk has in spades as evidenced by its success over many… Read more »

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

No, I believe we’re primarily talking of a relacemrnt land utility helicopter i.e. moving stuff cost efficiently, and the merits of US over Europe.
Merlin is evidently slated for a 2040 replacement program yet to be specified.
Rgds

eclipse
eclipse
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Why can’t we simply order more Merlins? They are around the same size as Blackhawk, at 19-20m and would simplify operations since they would have commonality with the FAA.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  eclipse

Makes you wonder if the decision to retire the RAF AW101 Merlin HC.3 and AW101 Merlin HC.3A was the right idea

John From Don
John From Don
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

They never wanted them. I used to do work with Odiham and they slated them big time! Just wanted Chinooks

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  eclipse

No they are completely different size cabs, the merlin really stretches the term Medium rotor ( it’s bloody huge) . As Blackhawk fully loaded take of weight is 22,000lbs Merlin is around 33,000lbs, so Blackhawk Carriers around 11 troops or 4 stretchers, Merlin can carry around 30 troops or 12 stretchers.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

It would be good to carry a whole platoon in one aircraft rather then just a rifle section.

Cripes
Cripes
2 years ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

The problem about carrying a platòon (30 combat-laden troops) in a single large helo like a Merlin is that is too big and vulnerable a target in the battle area. The US has got it about right. Their staffs have resolutely insisted on a smaller helo able to lift a section of 10 troops, hence the Black Hawk size. Their Divisional Aviation Brigade comprises 3 Black Hawk air assault squadrons, each of 10 helos, so they can move 3 infantry companies in one lift and insert them at a key point on the battlefield. The key is a small, fast… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 years ago
Reply to  eclipse

The Merlin is nearly twice the size of a Blackhawk. Though it can’t lift twice as much! As a battlefield taxi, they are crap. For starters the ramp is too short making it very steep and when it gets wet it’s a nightmare to walk up, especially when carrying a Bergen etc. Secondly the upper fuselage is made from a composite material. These are a maintenance nightmare when coming to repair after suffering small arms damage. You can’t simply patch it with a plate, you have to cut out all the delaminated material, then use a manufacturer’s approved repair scheme… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS
2 years ago
Reply to  DaveyB

These are a maintenance nightmare when coming to repair after suffering small arms damage. You can’t simply patch it with a plate, you have to cut out all the delaminated material, then use a manufacturer’s approved repair scheme that then takes 24 hours to cure.

Really? And you think fixing a plate somewhere there is a hole is manufactured approved ?

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 years ago
Reply to  AlexS

Yes! What is allowed and not allowed is made through a contracted agreement between the design authority (DE&S engineering authority) and the design organization (manufacturer.) Depending on the size and location of the small arms damage, a simple repair scheme can be authorized by the local engineering officer and carried out by engineers (REME/RAF/Navy). If the damage is to tertiary structure on a helicopter, i.e the skin, as it takes no load, a metal patch plate can be riveted over the hole. However, if the bullet strikes primary structure such as a load bearing frame. A procedure will need to… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 years ago
Reply to  eclipse

Merlin is a brilliant machine; the Rolls Royce sub hunter. Its just too expensive and over-engineered for the requirement.

julian1
julian1
2 years ago
Reply to  eclipse

Don’t forget the RAF got shot of its merlin fleet since it found it unsuitable for battlefield support. On that basis, it would hardly buy new ones to replace Puma

Johan
Johan
2 years ago
Reply to  Tom Keane

Merlin is out of service is 2030, and look to the inter serviceability of the Future Vertical lift program.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

You are clearly misinformed

Mikka
Mikka
2 years ago

One things for sure: with so many procurement cock-ups in recent times they can’t afford to get this one wrong!

Johan
Johan
2 years ago

Bare in mind the following item, where is the focus on the Uk armed forces currently or likely to be based. iF you follow the Line to the Pacific regions and what are Allies will be using in that region. Australia is very unhappy with the service downtime on the NH90, Dutch have flagged this also and cut their operation flight hours. So if your Allies had service areas and parts in a region, would you not tap into that supply chain. Personally never understood why the RAF ditched the Merlin, you have to think they had an end game… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 years ago
Reply to  Johan

The RAF were told to hand over the Merlins by the Treasury. As they had refused to release additional funding for additional Merlins to replace the Jungly Sea Kings. It was not a RAF decision.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Bravo!

People forget the SABR programme was cut by the then Labour government when ( I read ) some 3 billion of funding of rotary was removed.

SABR was to replace the Sea Kings of the CHF.

Instead, lets rob Peter to pay Paul and use existing helicopters!

Equals a cut all round.

Bloody tory cuts!!!

John From Don
John From Don
2 years ago

I remember that too 🙂

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago

Why oh why would the U.K. choose a helicopter that came from a spec and the Tec level of the late 1960s.The airframe design of the black hawk is 50 years old. The black hawk airframe design is actually a contemporary of the Puma. something like the AW149 bests the Blackhawk in every sense. It would also lead to the AW149 production line being moved lock stock and barrel from Italy to the U.K. it would be a huge boost to sovereign capability. finally a modern rotor airframe is built to allow crew to survive far higher energy impacts than… Read more »

OldSchool
OldSchool
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Australia still thinks its worth purchasing another 40 Blackhawks – so aging yes but will still get job done ( and recieve upgrades) for decades.

Hermes
Hermes
2 years ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Aussie are not necessary the best example for military purchase.

They also dont have any industrials in this sector in AU.

Not the case of UK with Airbus and Leonardo.

Oscar Zulu
Oscar Zulu
2 years ago
Reply to  Hermes

Both the MRH90 Taipan and ARH Tiger were built in Brisbane. Ironically local assembly and developing an Australian aerospace industrial base was one of the key reasons for the selection of the Taipan over the Blackhawk in the first place. There was an assumption that the maritime version of the NH90 would also be chosen to replace the first generation Seahawks then in service with the RAN which would have kept the production lines open longer. For a number of years there has been a push to develop sovereign Australian defence capabilities. In shipbuilding (submarines, destroyers, OPVs, frigates) armoured vehicles… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS
2 years ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Maybe because Australia thinks being the 51st US State is the only way they can be saved from Chinese.

Btw what helicopter the Australian Army leased to make up crew flight hours due to NH90 issues?

AW 139…

Hermes
Hermes
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The Puma is always on the front with its Caracal version. They both 2 very good helicopter able to have a very long life. Its not like its always the same as the first of their family. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/French_Air_Force_EC725_lift_off.jpg Now, depend on the real needs, costs, and willing. Going for stop gap and wait for the next europeans programs ? (Hope not a NH90 bis:..) The Caracal can be good. Or going with more modern heli with H175 or W149, I dont know these two… but clearly the blackhawk is probably the worst to buy… Not necessary technically, but for the… Read more »

anothername
anothername
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Let us compare some of crash worthiness of these two airframes shall we. Max vertical speed limit of each landing gear. For AW149 it is 300 ft/min. For UH-60 it is 2280 ft/min. Cabin max G load factors. For AW149 it is 16g longitudinally, 20g vertically and 8g laterally. For UH-60 it is 20g longitudinally, 20g vertically and 18g laterally. The UH-60 design team dedicated a great deal of effort into increasing its survivability. The landing gear layout was chosen in part for its increased crashworthiness, with all landing gear components kept away from fuel tanks so that in the… Read more »

anothername
anothername
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Let us compare the crash worthiness of these two airframes. Max vertical speed limit of each landing gear. For AW149 it is 300 ft/min. For UH-60 it is 2280 ft/min. Cabin max G load factors. For AW149 it is 16g longitudinally, 20g vertically and 8g laterally. For UH-60 it is 20g longitudinally, 20g vertically and 18g laterally. The UH-60 design team dedicated a great deal of effort into increasing its survivability. The landing gear layout was chosen in part for its increased crashworthiness, with all landing gear components kept away from fuel tanks so that in the event of a… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 years ago
Reply to  anothername

People seem to forget the Blackhawk was designed as the Huey replacement, i.e. a dedicated battlefield taxi. Whilst both the Airbus and Leonardo offerings are first and foremost a commercial helicopter, that can be given a military role. The Blackhawk has been designed to be resilient to battlefield damage, including armour along the tail to protect the tail rotor drive; all gearboxes with a minimum of 20 minutes run time without oil. Main rotor blades that can still function missing two foot from the tips, that also include titanium leading edge strips to protect the leading edges when landing too… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Hi davey have you really reviewed all the data on the AW149, is not just a big civil rotor as others seem to think, it was a complete ground up rebuild. So just like the Blackhawk it’s got a ballistic restraint cabin ( small arms), it’s oil free run time is actual twice that of the black hawk at 40 mins ( that’s those extra decades and changes in materials science coming through). It really is in every way as good as or better than a black hawk ( in cabin size, load and range). It will also mean the… Read more »

Daveyb
Daveyb
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

To be honest not really, as I based the judgement on the aircraft being an enlarged AW139. Which in military specs is just a lightly modded civilian aircraft, hence why it is quite cheap by comparison to others. I known the main gearbox dry run time was driven by the oil industry with the AW189. It also doesn’t have the flawed engine driveshaft design like the Puma/Super Puma, which has caused a number of fatal crashes. If the aircraft is its own entity, i.e. design to be a battlefield taxi from the ground up, then I’m definitely more interested, especially… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Daveyb

agree on the NH90. Another interesting fact is the 149 comes with a flotation system, which with the way we are going with intra operability around the carriers would be important. im pretty sure the black hawk does not have a flotation device, which has caused loss of life of US personal. I know the findings of a couple of enquires found that lives out Dave been saved if the Blackhawk had flotation, but it was decided against on cost grounds. This may have changed as I don’t really keep up on US rotors. I think a lot of people… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  anothername

I’m sorry but what you have stated is not correct. The max sink rates of the landing gear for the two cabs is as follows black hawk 30feet per second ( this is from the manufacturer) which is 9.14 meters per second. AW149 is 9.5 Meters per second ( from the manufacturer). the AS149 can sustain a hard landing .4 meters per second greater that the black hawk, which is around a 6% improvement your figure of 2280 feet per minute sink rate for the black hawk landing sink rate rating is about 8 feet per second higher than the… Read more »

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
2 years ago

When you set a hawk on a snake…? Very interesting. I would have thought it would make sense for the AUKUS pals to operate the same airframes. Personally, I don’t see Airbus in this so Leonardo vs Lockheed?

Jay
Jay
2 years ago

flew in these in Afghanistan, very nice machines, just the US Pilots flew them very predictable patterns, the Puma’s threw them about low level, was much more fun

Airborne
Airborne
2 years ago
Reply to  Jay

Pumas? Kabul was if for you then Jay?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  Airborne

I thought Puma was in Bagdhad with the deployed Sqn and only in later years in Afghan?

Regards helicopters, now the stories of western operated Hips I find really interesting.

The AAC SDS was training Afghans on them at Boscombe but I believe others were flown by US/UK.

Airborne
Airborne
2 years ago

Correct mate just testing the water if you know what I mean regarding the Pumas lol 👍

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  Airborne

I know mate, I saw the meaning. Thought I’d expand a bit.

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 years ago

I can neither state if that was true or deny it ever happened, pieces of shit.

These are not the droids you are looking for!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  DaveyB

😆👍

Klonkie
Klonkie
2 years ago
Reply to  Airborne

A memory jog for me . Brings back some foggy memories of flying about the African bush in Pumas, life at 50 feet at 120 knots. I seem to recall the RAF has a few ex SAAF Pumas still operational?

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 years ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Yep, plus a Argentinian war trophy that really irks them.

Klonkie
Klonkie
2 years ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Nice one Davey! It does say something about the robustness of the airframe and it’s adaptability. Good value to the British tax payer, it seems.

Daveyb
Daveyb
2 years ago
Reply to  Klonkie

It really should have been canned, instead of being upgraded to Puma 2, which was at least 10 years too late. The Puma has had a hard life and is a maintenance burden, requiring just as many maintenance hours as a Chinook. It isn’t as robust as a Blackhawk and has a god awful engine to gearbox design, that has caused a number of crashes and fatalities. We had the opportunity of replacing the whole fleet of Puma 1s twenty years ago, when we purchased the now Chinook Mk5s, as part of the deal included Blackhawks kit built by Westlands.

Klonkie
Klonkie
2 years ago
Reply to  Daveyb

thx for the info Davey. Hopefully, the upcoming replacement will be the right one.

OldSchool
OldSchool
2 years ago

After Army’s latest round of stuffups time to KISS. Blackhawks with logistics & maintaince in UK. Maybe even get some extra to replace Junglies and give those Merlins to RN for ASW conversion…..theyre needed.

Waiting for Ajax announcement…..my guess is it being binned….

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
2 years ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Let’s hope the right decision is made for all the right reasons and we get good quality helicopters in the full quantity and on time or even earlier and the UK industry has large input into manufacturing and or assembling.
I’d like see the Wildcat and Merlin numbers get bolsted and upgraded for the RN even as an offset if AW lose this competition.

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
2 years ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Exactly!!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  OldSchool

This.

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy
2 years ago

Bottom line – why on Earth does the RAF get involved in MT Air?

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave Wolfy

The RAF called dibs on the transport helicopters decades ago

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

I know, something to justify their existance after the deterrence was shifted.

Knight7572
Knight7572
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave Wolfy

the RAF is still needed

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy
2 years ago
Reply to  Knight7572

To do what?
They were given strategic comms (from the Royal Signals) amongst other things because there was not much for them to do after they got rid of their bombers – the reason for their existance.
The R Sigs now do tactical sat comms because it was too dirty, and not near a hotel.
This Joint palaver is a crappy fix because battle field choppers should go Army, they don’t like the F35B because it means getting seasick.

Daveyb
Daveyb
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave Wolfy

It dates back to the late 1940s. The Army would get helicopters up to a certain weight, above that they’d be RAF.

colin
colin
2 years ago

Apparently the UK Special Forces have sometime ago requested Black Hawk Helos to the UK goverment as a replacement not sure if they have any backing but a strong nood battle tested

Rob N
Rob N
2 years ago

Should we not buy something new not an old platform? Can we not build next generation Merlins?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  Rob N

Morning. Problem with that is we might afford 12, for example.

To replace 40 plus helicopters.

Leaving the same old complaints about loss of numbers and cuts.

But hey ho Westland survives and the MP of that constituency, who cares and knows about Defence as far as what jobs are available in his/her patch, is happy.

Never mind costs, affordability, or perhaps what the military actually require.

Something gold plated has to give and we need to start getting a better balance between quality and quantity.

If that means an OTS proven older design, in the numbers needed, great.

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
2 years ago

So true. The needs of the troops and aircrew who will fly them into conflict zones should be paramount. So therefore is it a battle proven ,well equipped OTS design?, or a converted civilian craft painted green, very expensive, low numbers and picked purely to shore up the votes of a local MP. Who will eventually work as a consultant/lobbyist for the company.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago

BINGO. As Cleuso would say, “now we’re getting somewhere!”

John From Don
John From Don
2 years ago
Reply to  Rob N

The newer ones bought by customers have lots of new kit in them, so essentially the airframes are similar but upgraded in many aspects.

We should buy more for sure

Goldilocks
Goldilocks
2 years ago

Why is everyone crying about the Blackhawk being 50 years old in design? The Chinnok, C-130, B-52 still fly and are as good on the battlefield as they were when they were first introduce! They’ve been kept in service a there easy to maintain, tough, battle-proven and reliable – You could have 50 of them on time and on budget for the same price of a unreliable, riddled NH90. Turkey was offered 109 of AW149’s for $4 billion, Blackhawk could do that for 2!

Last edited 2 years ago by Goldilocks
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago

The simple true is if you want a nation with a strong industrial base, you have to invest in it. If we buy a British built machine we develop our infrastructure and future security. The simple economic damage of buying abroad is damaging to our nations future. As for…its cheaper to buy abroad…..that’s the neoliberal, market comes first political Dogma that has lead to the rise of china and destruction of many of our own industries. we left Europe to gain control, that had a cost but sovereignty and our future came first. The same principle should guild on everything,… Read more »

Joe16
Joe16
2 years ago

Some good points in the comments section for and against the Blackhawk option. Personally I’m for the AW149, and I’ll throw my tuppence in as to why. It fulfils the requirements (as I understand them), that’s fundamental. I know the Blackhawk does too, but see my next points- this is an argument that builds. People on here seem to be using the term show pony very liberally, but not sure why? AW / Leonardo developed this to be a military helicopter- the 189 is the civilian derivative of this, not the other way around. It is based upon the AW139,… Read more »

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
2 years ago

I have nothing to add other than Blackhawks look fantastic, and in my head, aesthetics are of vital importance to the capability of any armed force

Ryan Brewis
Ryan Brewis
2 years ago

I take it the four up for replacement are the Puma for the RAF and the AAC Gazelle are the two obvious ones, the SAS AS365s and the Bell Griffin’s/212?
Seems like quite a mix of requirements. So if the Blackhawk is chosen what’s the odds the Wildcats are transferred to the RN and RAF/AAC get 80-100 in JHF?

AlexS
AlexS
2 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Brewis

UK is already too much dependent on US.

Chris
Chris
2 years ago
Reply to  AlexS

Has it even been an issue? The US sold trident at cost with no conditions on use. The US has been very generous in generating UK capabilities at cost, and regenerating them again when the UK sells it all off to save money. The also loan assets at no cost at all (VMFA-211).

You can’t say anything near that about France or Germany.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Brewis

Sold!

I’d bite the hand off for 50 to be honest.
And I’m surprised the Dauphin is in this requirement to be honest.

Last edited 2 years ago by Daniele Mandelli
Ryan Brewis
Ryan Brewis
2 years ago

I’m just guessing with the Dauphins and Bells but I can’t see what else they might be cause there’s no way the Merlins and Wildcats would be getting replaced. Don’t think fifty would be enough honestly. SAR, light attack, transport, utility, maybe recce and some other jobs too. If the Wildcats get shifted to the FAA then that’s close to a hundred helos needing replaced. It’s all just wild speculation anyway mate. If the Blackhawks aren’t built here that’s domestic production gone. The AW169 is unlikely to get much in the way of a foothold so it’s no great either… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Brewis

Well its 23 Puma, 8 Dauphin, 5 or so 212s, 3 Griffin and a handful of Gazelle so I hear, so that is why I mentioned 50. Staying at current, too small size. Increases are fine but we need the people to man them,. If the Wildcats move to the FAA the crews still need to be found to operate them, or the Blackhawks. Dauphin, yes, we are going on the earlier reports when Dauphin was mentioned. As a specialized non deployable helicopter heavily modified already I’d be happy to leave that as is. It’s the Lynx from 657 ACC… Read more »

Ryan Brewis
Ryan Brewis
2 years ago

The number of Gazelles, according to Wikipedia anyway, is 26 in service and 34 total so plus the half dozen or so others then 60 thereabouts. The Wildcats all going to the FAA and the JHF getting a hundred BH is admittedly pie in the sky but if there’s a chance of rolling our order in with the Aussies then maybe.

Mazda6
Mazda6
2 years ago

I’d remove the Airbus out of the equation. Euroland (the French) hate us mostly, maybe hate is too strong a word to use.

Blackhawk is a good choice. Off the shelf and used throughout the world, its a mature platform. The UK went off the shelf for the AH-64E after all.

The AW149. New, great range, cargo doesn’t necessarily match the Puma. Still a good choice, especially if it keeps Yeovil up and running.

I’m all for building and buying British, but the specific industries have been severely reduced or don’t exist anymore.

Stretched Wildcat anyone?

John Hartley
John Hartley
2 years ago
Reply to  Mazda6

Well there was that Lynx 3 prototype with a foot longer cabin. That extra length should have been part of Wildcat to my thinking.

Mr Mark Hussey
Mr Mark Hussey
2 years ago

I am ex United states military former member of 160th Nightstalkers blackhawk helicopter a very good helicopter I was door gunner on model m and model k from Somalia to Afghanistan

John Hartley
John Hartley
2 years ago

I would happily do a swap with the Poles i.e. we buy their Blackhawks to replace Puma& they buy our new upgraded Merlins to replace Mi-8/17.

Nicholas Bassett
Nicholas Bassett
2 years ago

I’m certain we’re not desperate enough that we would aquire antiquated old crates such as Black Hawk. Western Europe can do infinitely better than decades-old designs such as Black Hawk. Come on.

Klonkie
Klonkie
2 years ago

I don’t know Nicholas – it’s a pretty good piece of kit. I kinda see it in a similar light to the C130 and CH47

Chris
Chris
2 years ago

It has been upgraded so much, it’s not really old. It has a higher crash worthiness than anything Airbus or Leonardo build. It also has aftermarket parts and upgrades galore.

Mark
Mark
2 years ago

What a great discussion this is on the pros and cons of the 149 Vs blackhawk. One other thing to consider is if Leonardo win and build a nice new line in Yeovil when they build a military version of the aw609 tilt rotar we will have a facility here to make them. I’m sure its not that much rocket science to widen the body to a square box with a tailgate for military purposes and there’s our new future lift bird built in UK in 20-30 years.

Richard B
Richard B
2 years ago

The LM Sikorsky Black Hawk offer is likely to undercut other bids by a wide margin, and thus be very attractive for the always cash strapped MoD, but would surely result in the end of UK helicopter manufacturing – politically acceptable? Anyone else remember the brutal Westland affair of 1985/86? Two senior ministerial resignations and Thatcher fighting to survive as PM. Personally, I consider that the Black Hawk design is too old to take seriously. Admittedly it has had significant updates since, but first flight was in 1974 – just 6 years after the Puma! Assuming first delivery in 2025,… Read more »

Chris
Chris
2 years ago
Reply to  Richard B

How old is the 737? RAF just bought 9 of those!

Chris
Chris
2 years ago

Westland built two UH-60 Blackhawks from kits, named WS-70. They were intended to be marketed to a Saudi order for 80 medium lift helicopters. After gulf war 1, the Saudi’s cut their defense budget and the WS-70 black hawks were sold to Bahrain. Now they’re in the US fighting forest fires.

Dave M
Dave M
2 years ago

Why anyone would choose anything other than Blackhawk, from the three so far in the race, I do not know. The other two are totally second rate. Blackhawk is competently combat proven.

This requirement is effectively interim until the US develops their Blackhawk replacement.

Blackhawk is a no brainer.

Richard
Richard
1 year ago

I still think Blackhawk (or Battlehawk even better) and ‘X’amount of DAPs for those that need them would be a good move for the ‘now’ and ‘tomorrow’ timeline, (up to 2035 if we re lucky) they are Both the same airframe, still being invested in and it’s pretty much an reincarnation of the UH Hue and it’s longevity. It’ll be around for years to come, even when the next gen helos arrive. If both sides (let’s face it that’s how it is now) develop ground breaking future helicopters, then I’m sure the Hawks will show their age quite quickly, but… Read more »