The United Kingdom has refuted claims that it is involved in discussions with Turkey regarding submarine production cooperation.

This comes after Turkish President Erdogan made a statement earlier this week, asserting that the UK was interested in partnering with Turkey on the construction of submarines.

During a speech in Istanbul on Tuesday, President Erdogan revealed that “the UK wants to cooperate with us on the construction of submarines”. The London-based news outlet Middle East Eye further quoted an anonymous source, who confirmed London’s interest in collaborating with Turkey on uncrewed submarine production.

However, contrary to President Erdogan’s remarks, Breaking Defense reported that a spokesperson for the Royal Navy denied any knowledge of such discussions taking place with Turkey.

A spokesperson for the Royal Navy told Breaking Defense in a Wednesday statement here that “no one knows anything of these [Turkish] discussions,” including teams from the UK’s Submarine Delivery Agency, Defence Nuclear Organisation and shipbuilder BAE Systems.

It is worth noting that, in recent years, defence ties between London and Ankara have strengthened considerably, particularly in the aerospace sector. BAE Systems has agreed to work on the TF-X future fighter jet project. In addition, leading industry competitors such as Britain’s Rolls Royce and Kale Group have shown interest in providing engines for the aircraft, with production anticipated to begin by 2025.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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114 COMMENTS

    • Turkey well known for there pioneering design work in the submarine class (insert name here)
      Can’t forget the boats they built?

      • Turkey is currently building three new classes of submarines:
        Milden class, 2700 tonnes
        Reis Class (based on the German Type 214
        STM-500 a 500 tonne mini sub

        It also has a number of underwater drones programs in place.

        • Turkey has been doing a lot of making new stuff in country last few years.
          It seems whenever the USA restricts products it can incentivise countries to do it alone.
          Now will they be any good is another matter. Hopefully as they are still part of nato and an ally

          • Yes, they went from 80 percent imports to producing 80 percent of its defence needs that’s a massive turn around in such short time! This week they will introduce it’s first tank using Korean engine until it’s domestic engine is complete in 2024. That’s how they operate.

          • Maybe it is good: maybe it isn’t.

            It is one thing making a tank another making one that is useful on the modern battlefield…..ask Russia about that….

          • The Turks develop things rapidly and on budget. They have large shipbuilding industry so I’m certain they will get there.

          • As of the 21 April, and like South Korea, they certainly know how to get things built in a timely manner

            “The Turkish Mir armed unmanned surface vessel (USV) developed by Sefine Shipyard in partnership with Aselsan has successfully test-fired a lightweight torpedo for the first time.”

            LINK

          • Turkish Navy’s new LHD Anadolu enters service12 APRIL 2023

            “The Turkish Navy’s new landing helicopter dock (LHD) TCG Anadolu (L 400) was formally commissioned into service during a ceremony held at Sedef Shipyard in Tuzla, Istanbul, on 10 April.”

            LINK

          • Six will be built.

            South Korea launches first Ulsan-class Batch III frigate11 APRIL 2023

            “South Korean shipbuilder Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) has launched the country’s first Ulsan-class Batch III frigate.
            The vessel, which has been named ROKS Chungnam, was launched on 10 April at HHI’s facilities in Ulsan, the country’s Ministry of National Defense (MND) announced on the same day.”

            LINK

          • How much of that is built from older ships that met their end at the Turkish breakers yards

          • Isn’t that one of the reasons for scrapping a ship so you can reuse the metal content ?
            Turkey has a far larger steel industry than we do these days and using old high end metal is very cost efficient.
            If you look at the MILGEM design it isn’t an up-cycled Perry class 🤨

          • It depends.

            As a core team: yes it is.

            As the total team: No it isn’t.

            We do tend to overthink and over design things in the UK.

            Their approach will be more like 1980’s UK approach. Build one, make mistakes and optimise.

            So #1 will be a bit of a pig.

            Tech industry is move fast and break things – whereas defence is over cautious due to the adverse publicity garnered when #1 isn’t perfect.

            Choose you options!

          • Hi SB,

            To be honest if the RN commissoned a pig it would get a kicking in the press and so would the contractors, with politicians wading in to score brownie points as well.

            Look at the bad press HMS Prince of Wales has had. My guess is that the Carrier Alliance put their best people on QE to ensure no problems with the lead ship and then hoped all would be well with the follow sister. It’s what I’d do in this country. The thing is if this is what they did do it kinda worked, because a second carrier is not really news so the bad coverage has mainly been in the specialist press…

            We are so risk averse. It is completely stultifying. To make matters worse our mainstream press are bunch techophobes and defence illiterates. It’s little wonder the MoD, services and defence contractors tend to over think it.

            Frustrating ain’t it.

            Cheers CR

          • As SB says it probably is.

            It depends on how they have organised the programme. It might be that they have distruibuted the design process across the supply chain. It has been done successfully (in engineering terms at least) in the aircraft industry by the Fokker. The Fokker 100 was designed by three companies each given design responsiblility for a part of the plane. Certain parameters were set to ensure it all fitted together and achieved the same structural characterisitics, but after that the designers of each company could do what ever they liked. Each section of the plane was built using completely different methods and materials – honestly. It was quite the story when I was a student…

            So the 28 engineers could be the ‘integration team’ ensuring everything fits and meets the preset parameters. There are likely many more engineers working around the country in the supply chain on the project.

            Cheers CR

        • They plan a large aircraft carrier Erdogan said If elected again. Can they pull it off? With the experience they gained from the Spanish design Juan Carlos carrier they probably could and have a large shipbuilding industry. They may work with the UK on certain expertise . UK chief of staff was there recently visiting Baykar holding pictures of Akinci drone. Will the UK but them? Ben Wallace seems enthusiastic about Turkish drones

          • They already have an aircraft carrier with no aircraft to fly off it after they bought the S400 from Russia and the USA responded by cancelling their F35Bs 😆

          • Playing both ends against the middle…..great allies to have……I think Turkey discovered the S400 was a turkey…..so they gave up a lot for nothing!

          • Not the brightest move on Turkey’s part, but then Erdogan has a history of making stupid decisions. Hopefully he’ll be booted out of office this year.

          • Helicopters are manned aircraft that can currently fly from the Anadolu. The Kizilelma unmanned plane, which had its maiden flight last year and is designed to fly from the carrier, was on deck during the commisioning earlier this month along with the smaller TB3 drones. Turkey is also looking to navalise Hürjet manned trainer/fighters. It also wouldn’t surprise me if Anka-S drones eventually make it to the Anadolu’s deck if Turkey follows General Atomics STOL conversion route.

            Given it took nearly a year between HMS Queen Elizabeth’s commissioning date and the first F-35 deck landing, perhaps give the Turkish navy, which has never operated a carrier before, a little slack to sort its carrier fighter programme. Unlike the RN they can’t phone up the USMC to bulk their numbers.

          • • Good luck flying a CAP with helicopters.
            The Kizilelma and TB3 are still in development and not operational.
            • The Hurjet is still in development and use aboard the Anadolu is rather unlikely. The Turks would have to develop their own EMALS catapult and remove the existing ski-jump. Also the deck isn’t long enough for a jet to take-off again should the traps fail, which represents a major safety issue.
            • Operations involving manned flight obviously proceed more slowly due to safety requirements.
            • The current spending on defence budgets is dependent on the economy. The CPI inflation rate is 55% and the TRY slumped 44% and then 30% against the USD in the last 2 years.
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2023_Turkish_currency_and_debt_crisis

          • Helicopter carriers are still useful, whether or not they fly CAP. If the thrust to weight ratio of the Hürjet is enough, as seems likely, it would operate STOBAR with the ramp.

            I repeat, it takes time between the commissioning of a carrier and operating the aircraft, even for countries than have operated carriers before. How many years for QE’s maiden deployment, three and a half was it? How many for the USS Ford, five? Cavour, that’s more like QE, going to Japan end of this year maybe three and a half years since its refitting. Even then how many F-35s will it carry? Liaoning might be a better comparator from a country that had never before operated a carrier. Although it was declared “combat ready” after four years, I think it took eight and a half years before it properly deployed in a carrier group.

            Yet you are judging Anadolu’s state two weeks after commissioning! You are right, its fixed-wing planes/drones aren’t ready but all will have flown by the end of this year and integration will follow. If they decide on a showpiece maiden deployment a few years from now, despite the country’s financial situation, I wouldn’t bet on it having an empty deck.

          • Yes, helicopters carriers without a CAP are useful… as artificial reefs.
            There’s no evidence the thrust to weight ration is sufficient for the Hurjet to take off unassisted.

            Hilarious. You mocked in your previous comment about how long it took for the RN to get QE operational… and now in this comment you’re making the case it takes time to get a carrier operational 😆

            NONE of the Anadolu’s drones or aircraft – aside from helicopters – are ready. They are in development.
            IF they finish development then they then go into production. Then after they are produced and delivered then the task begins of getting both them and the carrier operational. Unless the Turk’s cut corners – like they did with their earthquake-proof buildings – it’s going to take time to achieve.

            If you knew anything about carrier operations, you’d know an empty deck is the ideal. Aircraft in the hanger-deck aren’t exposed to the same level of corrosion as those left on the flight-deck.

            Before they do a carrier strike group deployment it might be an idea to build some area-air defence destroyers to supplement their frigates.

          • I didn’t mock anything; I think the QE class is a massive achievement. You are reading things into my posts that I never put there.

            I’ve decided not to continue the conversation. The crack about the earthquake has put me in a foul mood.

          • Your “crack about the earthquake” is a terrible pun. Surely inappropriate given the death toll surely?

            It is a fact that earthquake building regulations were not enforced in Turkey. Instead the government offered an amnesty to builders if they paid a fee for breeches of the regulations. The government pocketed the money but did not require the the builders to perform corrective work on the buildings to bring them up to standard.
            It was a disaster waiting to happen.

          • I don’t think bringing a tragic earthquake is appropriate in to this ! I recall years ago how a light earthquake an light tornado destroyed houses in the UK. An earthquake at Richter scale 8 almost no country can be prepared for! We saw Japan the most ready country the destruction it does to them.

          • I didn’t bring a tragic earthquake into this, I brought systemic failure to follow best practice in safety critical areas by the Turkish government into this.

            Buildings in the U.K. aren’t required to meet earthquake resilience standards, those in Turkey are as it is in an earthquake zone.

            The earthquake in Turkey was 7.8, by comparison the earthquake that threatened the Fukushima nuclear power plant (which I assume is the one you refer to) was much stronger at 9.1 – it’s a logarithmic scale.
            And the damage and deaths in Japan weren’t caused by the earthquake, the buildings proved resilient to that.
            (If they hadn’t there really would have been a nuclear disaster.)
            It was the tsunami generated by the quake that turned it into a disaster, over 90% of the deaths were due to drowning arising from the tsunami.

            • Japan 20,000 dead (9.1 earthquake & tsunami)

            • Turkey 50,000 dead (7.8 earthquake)

          • How about the over 220k NHS pandemic deaths considering the UK has a population of 67 million and Turkey 85 million million with 99k? Turkey has state of the art healthcare system with big capacity that used prevention and early treatment for covid .

            The last I recall Turkey sent 3 loaded military planes at the height of the pandemic in 2020 with hospital supplies as aid received with gratitude by the RAF and later on sold the UK supplies it could not source elsewhere due to competition, while countries like the US and Israel refused to share anything let alone donate things when Boris called which the media reported on. This is why many in the UK including Ben Wallace consider Turkey a strategic ally and partner .

            Often I noticed by many here on here have an anti Turkish theme and overlook Turkey when a serious crisis came and donated to NATO countries including the US plenty of supplies which Stoltenberg praised at a time of crisis when others lacked the resources . I repeat no other NATO country demonstrated such capabilities during the pandemic! Turkey aided none NATO countries too in Africa South America Asia The Balkans and Is held in high regard if you travel and talk to people.

            I think Turkey is vital NATO ally that needs no question mark over its head that never left NATO just to rejoin like France or Greece .

          • Conveniently overlooking:
            • countries measure vivid deaths differently
            • countries with older populations naturally had higher deaths
            • that PPE flown by the RAF was bought from Turkey, not aid
            • Turkey’s economy is basket case
            • Erdogan has swivelled Turkey away from the secular state that Attaturk founded
            • is one step away from becoming a dictatorship, we’ll see in May…

          • i believe erdogan cancelled f35 contract on purposed by having s400….even though they partnered in dev team…to push national tfx program ahead of it time…..even they was kick out f35 program…they already have access knowledge during f35 development….no wonder they roll out tfx prototype so quickly…

          • It’s quite possible Edogan bought the S400 to get out of having to buy the F35 given the collapse of the Turkish Lira against the US Dollar.

            The TF-X was already in development before they were kicked out of the F35 programme, as a low-end replacement for their F16s. BAE Systems were contracted to provide the technical expertise to develop it.
            The TF-X isn’t VSTOL either, so can’t replace the F35Bs role in equipping the Anadolu.

          • The F35 would not give much of an age to a carrier like that , I think the way they thought out of the box and decide to changing to a drone carrier is unique and where the future is for such smaller carriers . Japan already has shown interest in Turkish naval drones .

          • Rubbish, the Turk’s wanted the F35 and other nations see the advantage of small carrier with F35s onboard.
            Erdogan despite the warning, bought the Russian S400, so the USA cancelled the F35 order.
            It left the Turks with a carrier and no aircraft. Of course they have to look at drones 🤷🏻‍♂️

        • Simply because an action is currently extremely unlikely, does not preclude it from occuring for all time. Erdogan will eventually leave office, one way or another. A Western leaning replacement
          government could enable significant revisions in current policy. All manner of interesting combinations of players could be envisioned in the future for SSK and UUV projects: Canada, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, and the UK, in various combinations/configurations. France and Germany are certainly not the only choices for development partners available. For the UK, there would probably be additional effort required to compartment/separate from AUKUS Pillar I initiatives. As the Bond flick states, “Never say never again.” 🤔😳😉

          • Ugh…forgot the Italians and Greeks, although having the Greeks and Turks involved in the same project might entail SERIOUS diplomacy.. 😁

          • The opposition already made it clear they won’t sanction Russia. I think many in the west can’t accept Turkey now has a independent foreign policy which all the opposition parties now support. When you have a defence industry that has grown off the back of an independent foreign policy and a public that supports no one can change it easily.

            Turkey purchased the S400 because the US refused to sell them patriots . Trump even said that . Apart of Spain other NATO allies took their patriots away from the Turkish Syrian border when Turkey faced missiles falling into its territory. Until they produced their own system they went for the S400, which now they won’t need after testing own system called Siper.

          • What, you finishing A Coys laundry on time? Hope so cucky boy, now stop talking and grab the detergent!

        • Farouk is well known in the comment pages of the Jerusalem Post as a virulent antisemite and a protagonist of the terror regime of Iran.

      • I rather suspect any cooperation will likely take a Turkish effort and adapt for our use and either built cheaply there or more likely built here, as I just discovered earlier the Jackal which it liked to present in presentation as if it were a UK design with uk jobs is actually a Turkish design adapted to our use with Martlet added. So why would I not believe that we are considering Turkish underwater drone expertise to be utilised in our own projects? We have pretty much been sitting on our hands in going beyond concepts while others have taken the lead whatever we are told in pr. we sure have ideas and indeed tech but at the end of the day producing stuff at an acceptable price point for relative kamikaze or short lived platforms clearly the likes of Turkey are the go to producer. We just don’t want to publish it to the World and the British public who will perceive it very negatively I suspect and damage national confidence. They prefer like Jackal present it in uk military colour in a flashy pr film and present it by omission as UK originated. Bit like Apple keep your mouth shut or lose the business.

    • Not a chance in hell any UKUSA sub tech is being handed to Ankara. Not a chance. That is an area with one the biggest bilateral links between the USN and RN.
      This would be the RN looking at Turk UUV developments.

      • I think that it is probably the U.K. looking at what they have and how can it be useful.
        The first thought of it’s the U.K. helping turkey maybe the wrong way round.
        Mind you it could be something like U.K. helping turkey with oxygen candles or some other basic submarine stuff that the president is bragging about.

        • If they announced we were buying, for example, some Bayraktars I’d be quite happy. The Turks have a lot of kit in that field.

          • I saw Turkey development weapons guy speak earlier and he said Turkey may build a large aircraft carrier and that’s where the talks with Spain and UK come in. However he said we need sort out what will fly off from there.

            He said even if they didn’t go far they have a big shipping industry that will overcome it. He was frank and said there are areas of possible collaboration after the reporter mentioned that Wallace and his counterpart met like 6 times more than any other defence chief? He said it’s up to the ministers when they will say things in public.

            Frankly if the UK joins Kizilelma project at fraction of the cost it can equip both carriers with lethal unmanned fighter jets working alongside the F35 in squadrons. Check on YouTube the Baykar channel this thing flying it’s impressive.

          • Will be interesting to see what happens. Just looked at Kizilelma I’d not heard of it. I’m curious if it has the same capabilities as the various UAV that BAES have created at the SPS in liaison with the US.

          • What UAVs have BAES created there, other than Taranis? I saw some pretty pictures a year or two back, but I thought they were just concept pictures. Did they actually build anything?

            My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that BAES, especially if it’s working with the US, will be streets ahead in autonomy/software, and Bayraktar will be streets ahead in price/attritability and manufacturing agility/reality.

            If you aren’t familiar with Turkish drone programs, I suggest you also check out the TAI Anka-3.

          • Agree on those advantages regards the Turk drones which is why I’d be keen on us getting some.

            The SPS at Warton and the wider Lancashire area up as far as West Freugh in Scotland used to be a hotbed for “Black Triangle” “UFO” sightings back to the mid 90s, I understand there have been several, even if some are just concept demonstrators or mock ups.

            As it’s all classified, and in co operation with the likes of DARPA, we’ll only know so much.

          • Kizilelma will be even more impressive when they reach the dual engine C version. I think it would be great to see that with Rolls Royce engines.

  3. Unmanned submarines being the hidden text.
    The chat would of went maybe we could work together on these underwater drones. Ooh that could be a good idea.
    Further action. None taken at this time.
    Media panic. U.K. building SSBNs in turkey. Turkey given plans to SSNAUKUS.

  4. I think he is confused with Ferry’s, perhaps it was the SNP that told them they want to cooperate on submarines 😀

  5. This is never going to happen. The UK is one of the world’s foremost submarine and anti-submarine warfare expert nations, probably only second to USA for its know how. Closely followed by France and likely Germany. There is literally zero chance we would share our innovation and very latest tech with Turkey on account of the risk of immediate sharing of this information with Russia and China. Turkey is a NATO ally in name only.
    If President Erdogan wanted better integration and to be seen in a more trustworthy light he should authorise Sweden’s joining of NATO and stop courting any pretence that Putin is anything other than a mad psychopath hell-bent on trying to develop a place in historic books- alongside Mad Vlad the Impaler. As for Turkey’s positioning alongside China- well President Xi is about as trust-worthy as a rabid dog.

    • Again this won’t be sharing our top end submarine tech with Turkey though arguably we are risking something of that with Bae and RR supporting their 5th Gen fighter, indeed discussions there have had delays because Turkey wanted more technology transfer. But when it comes to submarines we have little to offer Turkey beyond top notch sonar tech at this level, which we would not transfer any underlying tech but maybe sell lower end versions, it’s why they are using a German submarine design, we don’t build such submarines. This would be about cooperation on underwater drones or mini subs, where they likely have far more active operational knowledge and technology sadly than we do, because this isn’t about building RR standard platforms no doubt, it’s more Vauxhall and we are pretty useless at producing anything remotely cheap in that category and who wants such a platform that would be too costly and sophisticated to actually use in a dangerous environment whereas the Turks are damn good at ‘good enough’ technology that we can add a few bolt ons to and have enough to somewhat risk and promote as UK innovation no doubt. We seem to be doing a lot of that with Sweden and Israel at the moment after all so why not go cheaper after all Rishi and Hunt will love the concept … while it’s kept secret anyway. Ouch.

    • Wait Taranis was like 10 years ago… No word of it still! Turkey is introducing Anka 3 and started it all recently. The point is tech won’t wait ! Other countries are pushing things hard if they don’t get the tech transfer. Turkey now is the world largest drone seller lol Who would have thought of that possibility 3 years ago? Nobody ! I think ego is unhelpful, we must wake up and smell the coffee

      • Taranis was a technology demonstrator not a prototype. A lot of what was learned/ developed will appear in GCAP.

        However the U.K. isn’t alone in not currently having an autonomous flying wing in development.
        The USA had the Northrop Grumman X-47B, an autonomous flying wing drone, flying in 2011 and operating from aircraft carriers. Now the two demonstrators are in museums with no follow-on.
        Maybe both the USA and UK decided these were technological dead-ends, but that seems hard to believe given the Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider is also a flying-wing…

        • The US is also rapidly divesting from Reaper as well, the US and the UK seem to be dis regarding drones and both where pioneers in the field 20 years ago. They will continue to be useful in niche roles like tankers or providing recon in permissive areas. However the UCAV programs imagined ten years ago have all been got rid of.

          That’s being replaced by loyal wingman drones however are you really going to build a cheap drone with inferior stealth and kinetic performance and have it follow your really expensive 6 gen manned aircraft around. What the real benefit?

          Your literally tipping the enemy of that you are there.

          What if you want to go supersonic? Do you have to wait for your loyal wing men to catch up.

          6 gen aircraft were originally suppose to be unmanned, now they look a lot like 5 gen aircraft with slightly better engines.

          Turkey is building drones because they can’t build anything else and they look good on the internet.

          Drone seems like Iran is selling to Russia are really cheap missiles in line with MALD or SPEAR EW and if you need a massive facility or air base to launch them then how long is that going to survive.

          You can try and recove drones from cargo airplanes but it’s never going to be cheap easy or safe.

          MALD base line cost less than $100K and you can launch dozens if not hundreds from combat aircraft like F18.

          Sensors are expensive and worth recovering but then satellites are increasingly cheap and can be launched quickly.

          I suspect most of what we are doing in 30 years will look very similar today.

          I’ll still be waiting for my self driving Tesla as well.

          • Err nope. The USA has around 300 Reapers and they won’t be leaving service until 2035. The U.K. is buying Protector drones, a development of the Reaper.

            No the 6th generation aircraft weren’t supposed to be unmanned, but rather “optionally manned”. That is they can be piloted OR flown autonomously. With time as the AI gets better, we’ll probably see more if the latter than the former, especially on high-risk missions.

            The drones Iran sells to Russia are unarmed – it’s how they avoid being classified as a co-belligerent in international law. It’s them up to the Russians to arm-them.
            Most like the Turkish drones seem to be used as kamikaze drones, in other words, as cheap loitering missiles.

            As for self-driving cars, well the Mustang-E offers Level 2 self-driving on U.K. motorways. But I’m also waiting for Level 5 cars… but you do realise autonomous flight is a far easier hurdle than self-driving on crowded roads?…

        • There are other projects that took over from Taranis. Some are publicly known such as Magma, whilst others are not.

          • Magma is a separate tech demonstration. LANCA came next then got canceled.

            Everything else is going to Tempest. I’m sure the stealth from Taranis which was suppose to be amazing will find its way in to tempest but I think we are out of the UCAV game unless NGAD comes up with something. But NGAD sounds like a $300 million mini B21 with two attending drones at $100 million a pop.

  6. Could this be a combination of Erdogan being in full Election, Nationalistic, bulling up Turkey as a major player Politician BS mode. And maybe some private U.K. company giving support or technology support to the Turkish Navy on UAV or mini subs (they are in NATO).
    And the press has then spun it into full on Snow on top of Cairngorm in Winter becomes “Beast from the East part 237”.

    • Probably some initial talks and as you say the rest exploited and built up for political pr and self grand standing which if this place is anything to go by he will in the minds of potential voters be giving out the impression we are transferring nuclear powered submarine technology. Now I wonder where he got the idea from that we might possibly do that with a foreign Govt.

      • UK chief of staff was recently in Turkey and met Baykar and took photos with some of the drones. The media here reported that not which was odd! But he held pictures of the Akinci drone and TB2 which was interesting. So there may be something going on we are not told about.

    • The Turks are way ahead on drones and flying so low end TB2 to Mid end Anka to high end Akinci to premium prototype Kizilema. I saw Akinci flying with Kizilema video earlier. No European country has shown anything like . Lets not knock the Turks down just for the sake of it.

      Their products are in terms of quality are high and NATO standard certified always .

  7. IMO If the report is from Middle East Eye, it needs a reliable source – say The Beano. ME is virulently anti-Israel / anti-Western.

  8. Turkey seems to cause more problems for NATO than they are worth. Having them no longer in NATO would be no big loss. Sweden would make a much better member. And America should pull their nukes out of Turkey sooner rather than later. Crazy they are still stationed there after all these years.

      • Turkey is NATO second largest army and it’s a modern army. If Turkey left NATO they would lose 750k soldiers and NATO would shrink in the southern flank and lose access to the black sea and face a hostile capable country in the Aegean, East Med which will cooperate with China and Russia. Turkey has significant influence in central Asia the Balkans and North Africa! So NATO must confront them on top of Russia and China

      • Yes, literally the gate keepers in that area. Hopefully keeping a good eye on what’s going on and out and under radar and in the dark.

    • Dan they are a necessary evil as a southern NATO state buffer! I’m sure NATO head sheds would want them gone asp if they could, but alas they are a geographical necessity 👍

  9. I mean, BAE Systems has already provided technical and development knowledge to Turkey so they could build their TF-X program. £1.7 billion to Turkey to build a high-speed railway (Link) and there’s negotiation to sell Eurofighters to Turkey. I wouldn’t be surprised that a co-oration would be considered.

    • Turkey has become light years ahead of the UK in terms of armed drones! They have drones in all classes and recently introduced Kizilema a stealthy unmanned fighter jet carrier capable too. This year they will introduce Anka 3 a stealthy bomber drone similar to Taranis. The first prototype of the 5th generation prototype of the TFX was rolled out from the hangar last month

      They completed their 5 Indigenous Corvettes and the first of 5 Istanbul class frigate is in sea trial due to be handed over this year and the launch of a destroyer program started . They have many unmanned boats too designed to track submarines and fire torpedoes. I saw one in action. Some have anti ship missiles. They will use this 600km max reach boats to confront enemy warships beyond missiles range and harass them along with the flying sea drones as groups.

      Turkey will introduce a tomahawk style cruise missile this year called Gezgin after putting into service an anti ship missile recently. It has ballistic missiles with a reach of 600km in service to be extended to 1000km soon . But intelligence reports say they have 2.500km reach ballistic missile.

      Turkey recently said they may no longer require the Russian S400 after testing it’s Siper air defence system. Siper project started before the S400 purchase but has matured now .

      Autonomous under sea drones are underway and mini submarines too . Turkey tested space launch rockets too. So they have a lot going on at a very fast speed! Erdogan is not as stupid as the media likes to portray him whether we like him or not has transformed Turkish defence industry which before him imported 80 percent of weapons.

      • Hi James – many thanks for that very interesting update on Turkish military developments. One wonders whether the MoD could learn from the way they have invested their money in successful defence projects.

        • I think we could learn a lot in terms of being efficient because we developed post cold war US Mentality and reduced competition after the cold war ended giving few companies that overcharge and are slow a monopoly.

          I think hybrid collaboration like we are doing now with Jackal with Turkey is a great first start to get the military the gear it needs badly fast by encouraging new British startups that partner with startups in Turkey for example. Big legacy companies like BAE will start to wake up and smell the coffee of the competition.

          Jackal only April 2022 the collaboration started and already we have a hybrid product being demonstrated for the UK mitary. BAE would have not done that ! That’s the danger of monopolies of legacy companies.

        • I look around developments in countries that we often don’t keep an eye on and Turkey got my curiosity because it has come out of nowhere suddenly fast ! They field weapons in all areas now apart of nukes . They have laser weapons too and are working on hypersonic weapons too .

          In terms of nuclear they will open this month Europe largest nuclear energy facility with 3 reactors and I think they will gain know how from the Russians on this .

  11. Why would a Royal Navy spokesman know about these talks? Wouldn’t this be on a ministerial level and be through the MOD?

  12. Hi folks hope all is well.
    Slightly off topic , but a naval theme. Just been reading about HMS Prince of Wales. Apparently she is being used for spares to keep HMS Queen Elizabeth operating?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12003445/amp/Stricken-3-2BN-Royal-Navy-aircraft-carrier-HMS-Prince-Wales-reduced-acting-scrap-yard.html

    I find this quite disturbing considering her age and of course the matter if her own repairs. She is meant to be one of our ready to deploy is needed, not used as a spare for parts.
    Cheers,
    George

  14. “Uncrewed submarine production” … so the claim is that somebody within the many companies and organisations involved in such technology are willing to talk to the Turks about underwater drones … why do you think this is a big deal? (even if it i true?)

  15. Given Turkey’s ability with UAV’s, why not co-operate on “remote submersibles”. Seems perfect sense to me. Low end autonomous subs running up and down the power and gas lines in the North Sea etc, are the next big thing NATO and the Western world should be looking at.

  16. Off-topic, but it’s good to see Australia investing in its armed forces.

    I was only talking about our aircraft having the ability to launch long-range anti-ship missiles in another thread a few days back.

    To that end, the review recommended six priorities starting with developing a nuclear-powered submarine program, previously announced under the AUKUS deal with the United States and the United Kingdom.

    It also recommends speeding up the acquisition of long-range strike missiles and manufacturing munitions within Australia.

    The country also wants to improve its defence cooperation with regional neighbours, particularly in the Pacific.

    Technical requirements include the need to upgrade the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter and F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft to operate long-range anti-ship missile systems.

    An urgent recruitment campaign is also needed to boost the ADF workforce, including the number of workers in shipyards to expand the submarine force.”

    LINK

  17. Sounds to me like a rando government department may have had “development” discussions without the actual people who make decisions knowing..maybe a team in the foreign, commonwealth and development office…who knows lots of teams lots of people lots of miss communication opportunities.

  19. OT, but read recently that France and Italy have ordered an additional 700 Asters for their AAW Destroyers, frigates and GBAD. That’s quite a commitment. I can’t remember what the UK is doing with its Aster’s and if purchasing any more beside CAMM. Can anyone refresh us on that?

  20. Turkish president (polictican) states something and someone from the navy (non-polictican) denies it. What are the bets the discussuons happened at a polictical level, but no one told the RN.

  21. Maybe a suggestion to that bastion of Democracy Erdogan’s Turkey by that lucid and so clever Diane Abbott.

    • WHAT has Abbott to do with this ? Nobody in the UK or Europe thinks Erdogan was not elected democratically! We may not like him but he was elected and during the pandemic when other allied looked the other way around he delivered aid to the NHS . Don’t fall populist media look at the facts

      • When you say nobody, perhaps you are ignoring all those within Turkey, the thousands he has imprisonedjust beause they oppose him, all the independent media etc,and to assume that we in the UK believe that his election was free and without coercion is a stretch far too far.
        This also applies to all genuine Democracies that hold GENUINE and free elections.
        As to Ms Abbott it was merely to emhasise that as with her, truth is a rare commodity and the manipulation of it is not unique to Erdogan.

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