The crew of HMS Prince of Wales have undertaken small arms practise.

F-35 Lightning stealth jets recently embarked on HMS Prince of Wales as the carrier prepares to join NATO allies on its biggest exercise in decades. For the first time, the 65,000-tonne ship will host UK Carrier Strike Group battlestaff as she takes a central role in Exercise Steadfast Defender.

According to a Royal Navy statement:

“The F-35 fighter jets of joint RAF and Royal Navy 617 Squadron, ‘the Dambusters’ landed on the aircraft carrier while she was sailing in the North Sea after leaving their home base of RAF Marham, in Norfolk. The jets comprise just one element of the powerful UK Carrier Strike Group which also includes 11 helicopters deployed across the group, Royal Navy escort ships and support vessels from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary including frigate HMS Portland and tanker RFA Tidesurge.

It will lead an international task force taking part in Steadfast Defender – an exercise across multiple regions and domains from land and sea to air and space. Spanning several months and thousands of kilometres, it will see tens of thousands of personnel work together to showcase NATO’s ability to deter enemies and defend allied territory.”

Captain Colin McGannity, Carrier Air Wing and Strike Warfare Commander (better known as ‘CAG’), watched the F-35s landing. He said:

“It is always an exciting moment when F-35B Lightning join the Carrier Strike Group at sea. These fifth-generation aircraft are the main strike element of the group. Once again, we will be integrating them and the rest of the Carrier Air Wing with our NATO Allies and partners. There’s plenty of work ahead of us but I have every confidence that our talented and dedicated team will succeed. It’s winter in the North Atlantic and we will face harsh weather and freezing conditions, but we are well prepared and looking forward to demonstrating our readiness to fight, whenever and wherever we get the call.”

HMS Prince of Wales, which was deployed at short notice to replace HMS Queen Elizabeth, spent much of autumn last year working with F-35 jets off the Eastern Seaboard of the United States. However, Exercise Steadfast Defender will see the ship embark more jets than they ever have before.

Commander Martin Russell, Commander Air (also known as “Wings”) of HMS Prince of Wales has been preparing for the arrival of the aircraft. He was quoted as saying:

“I’m really excited to see the F-35B jets of 617 Squadon embark in HMS Prince of Wales, the first time we have seen this squadron onboard, and the most F-35B jets we have operated at one time. My team are keen to practise what they learnt about jets during our time on Westlant 23 last year. It’s the jets that really make us an aircraft carrier and bring the flight deck to life.”

HMS Prince of Wales and her escort ships will be operating in the North Atlantic, where temperatures are expected to drop below -10C and winds to reach upwards of 40kts – providing a real test of equipment and personnel.

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George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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Frank
Frank
1 month ago

😂😂

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

😂😂😂 What’s the weather like at the moment? Any sign of when it will reach full-rate production? 29 Jul 2023 “Surprisingly, the F-35, often touted as the “wonder plane” by the U.S. Air Force and Lockheed Martin, is prohibited from flying within a 25-mile radius of a thunderstorm. Over the years, we’ve been promised that this ageing aircraft is just one fix away from being ready for full-scale production. The rationale for this undisclosed policy became apparent in July 2021, when two F-35Bs flying from their base in Japan had to make emergency landings due to significant lightning damage, resulting… Read more »

Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Mate…. Here in Cider Land, the weather is Pants….. I’ve been playing with my Italian Bike in the Garage most of the day, getting it ready for the Spring…. Glad I’m not off Norway to be honest……. F35’s will come good…… eventually.. 😎

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

” Here in Cider Land, the weather is Pants….. I’ve been playing with my Italian Bike in the Garage most of the day”

Fingers crossed the maintenance crew of the F-35/F-35s onboard take note and do the same thing on the hanger deck.

Roll on TR3/Block and the 2030s, happier days await I’m sure!

Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Well, I’d certainly be up for a Drag Race…… Ski Ramp Launch would be mighty interesting …….

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

Shades of Evil Knievel spring to mind!

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Roll on getting an upgrade from thr GPMG to CIWS akin too Phalanx for some point defence FFBNW doesn’t cut the mustard in today’s ever changing politics

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

At a cost of £3B per ship, I tend to agree.

Grinch
Grinch
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Utter rubbish

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Grinch

Hello RON5, Who woke you up 😂😂😂Still operating in STEALTH MODE I see. Fingers crossed the F-35 can do a better job of it 😂Any news on the new power plant for the F35 and associated costs 😂 “The U.S. military sees planned engine upgrades for all the variants of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter as critical because the Pratt & Whitney F135 engines that power all of the aircraft have been “under spec since the beginning,” according to the top officer in charge of the program.” F-35 Engine Running Too Hot Due To ‘Under-Speccing,’ Upgrade Now Vital (Updated) The… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Patrick C
Patrick C
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

how much do you get paid to post that in every thread day after day? “modern aircraft faces delays” isn’t much of a headline anymore. name me a modern aircraft that hasn’t had delays in development and upgrades? thats what happens when you push the envelope and develop technology thats never been done before. hows SU-57 development/production come along?

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Patrick C

I don’t, it’s just delayed year after year at great expense.

Would you like me to post a bit more on that?

“America’s F-35 fighter jet program is set to beat its own record as the most expensive in the world with the cost to develop and procure the planes soaring to $438 billion. Data from the Pentagon as reported by Bloomberg indicates the cost will jump by 6.5 per cent in 2024, equivalent to $26 billion.”

farouk
farouk
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Nigel wrote: “America’s F-35 fighter jet program is set to beat its own record as the most expensive in the world with the cost to develop and procure the planes soaring to $438 billion.” It really does help to mention to the great unwashed that the costs for the F35 program refers to 3 different aircraft: F35A (land based fighter) F35B (STOL and VTOL aircraft) F35C (Carrier based version) and that as of the 18th of Jan 2024 over 1000 F35s (of all variants) have been built , in contrast 592 Typhoon Eurofighters have been built, as have 259 Rafale… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

Farouk wrote: ” It really does help to mention to the great unwashed that the costs for the F35 program refers to 3 different aircraft:” F35A (land based fighter) F35B (STOL and VTOL aircraft) F35C (Carrier based version) Who in particular are you referring to on here? Farouk wrote: ” and that as of the 18th of Jan 2024 over 1000 F35s (of all variants) have been built , in contrast 592 Typhoon Eurofighters have been built, as have 259 Rafale fighter jets . With the F35 being 15 years younger than the other 2, with sales figures only set… Read more »

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Patrick C

👍

Peter S
Peter S
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

F35 has been a brilliant commercial success for LM. They miss every deadline, exceed every budget, retain ownership of the software that runs it, thus controlling the support function, and repeat. In a rational world, the US, who fund most of the neverending development, would call time on the aircraft. But LM have spread the supply chain so wide that pork barrel politics keeps it going. The first question for a small navy like RN, is whether the money spent on the carriers plus F35 plus Crowsnest (£7b+£9b+£450m) has been the best use of limited funds. The honest answer must… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter S

‘It is time …..planned role of the RMs’
You are John Healey MP and I claim my £5 🙂

Crabfat
Crabfat
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

£5?? It was 10 Bob when I were a lad…!

Peter S
Peter S
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Sorry, but there isn’t any money left!

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter S

Long statement. Had difficulty finding anything there which made any sense. We are committed to F35. We may ultimately replace it with something homegrown but that is the plan.

Peter S
Peter S
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

I’ve re read what I posted. I think it makes perfect sense to review how we proceed with carriers whose build cost is a sunk cost but whose future air wing isn’t and isn’t likely to get any cheaper. The decision to go slow on F35 purchases isn’t an example of MOD brilliance but a necessity forced on them by issues of both capability and affordability. It is now 3 years since the RN RFI on an electromagnetic system to flesh out F35 with UCAVs. This initiative was driven by the near certainty that F 35 numbers would remain too… Read more »

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter S

Peter for the carriers F35 is the only show in town. Sure it is not perfect – what is? Tempest is an unknown quantity as yet and Typhoon whilst an excelent platform is a step backwards not forwards. UAVs are absolutely essential – a new type of platform certainly but in 5-10-15 years we will wonder how we ever managed without them. F35 is in my view a stopgap. It doesn’t have to be perfect it just needs to satisfy our limited needs in the interim. Pesonally I could think of a hundred ways to improve the UK defences before… Read more »

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

👍Exactly!

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter S

“F35 has been a brilliant commercial success for LM. They miss every deadline, exceed every budget, retain ownership of the software that runs it, thus controlling the support function, and repeat. In a rational world, the US, who fund most of the neverending development, would call time on the aircraft. But LM have spread the supply chain so wide that pork barrel politics keeps it going.” Spot on and known for some time as I have posted many times on here. It’s worth reading in full. Full-rate production still hasn’t been agreed upon yet, but some on here would have… Read more »

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

I can’t suggest it would be advisable to give away the software or indeed the rights associated with it. Also deadlines and budgets do tend suffer when you are developing cutting edge kit. F35 is a stepping stone for LM and for the west. It can and will be improved.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

It’s more Donkey & Carrot, and the carrot is getting more expensive!

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter S

Here we go again, from windbag, PeterS!
You never learn to progress!
Maybe you are Neil Kinnock?

Last edited 1 month ago by Meirion X
Peter S
Peter S
1 month ago
Reply to  Meirion X

I thought you were hibernating or learning how to spell in English.

Exroyal.
Exroyal.
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter S

LM announced there will be no more delivery of 35s until third quarter this year. Aviation analysts doubt that date. Fort Worth is now the destination I believe for aircraft built but awaiting the upgrade. LM also announced a 400 million hit to the bottom line as a result. My prediction is beyond our current contract no UK government is going to purchase anymore. Given the poor serviceability of the 35 you will only ever see one carrier at sea with some form of an air group. I think your original statement holds water but I would go further. As… Read more »

Netking
Netking
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

This is pathetic. Everyone is aware of your hatred for the F-35 but now you’re quoting bulgarianmilitary dot com. A website that has been designated as one of the main outlets for Russian disinformation campaigns. Sad.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

“A website that has been designated as one of the main outlets for Russian disinformation campaigns.” Really? Says who???? Please show me where it says that. Try this one instead. In-flight lightning strike grounds 2 F-35B Lightning II jetsBy Philip Athey On July 13, two F-35B Lightning II jets based out of Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni, Japan, were severely damaged after being struck by lightning in flight. Both planes were able to land safely and no Marines were injured in the incident, according to the Marine Corps. “After conducting our standard reporting and assessment procedures, the weather-related incident was labelled… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Netking
Netking
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Have you taken a look at their other headline articles on their website right now. “s400 intercepting a patriot missile” or that Yemen dealth a ruinous blow to Uk ships and american mq9 reaper. For someone who copies and paste websites as much as you do I’m sure you came across the article at the link below that adds context to the f35 thunderstorm issue all the way back in 2022. https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2022/02/03/air-force-to-upgrade-f-35a-gas-tanks-to-weather-lightning-strikes/ The bottom line is no matter how much derision you aim at the f35, it’s by far the most successful 5th gen aircraft and continues on it’s path… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

Yes, they did. US MQ-9 Drone Shot Down by Houthis Update February 21, 2024 7:46 AM Pentagon — The Pentagon has confirmed that Iran-backed Houthi militants in Yemen shot down a MQ-9 Reaper drone on Monday. “A U.S. MQ-9 was downed or went down off the coast of Houthi-controlled areas in Yemen, in the Red Sea. Initial indications are that it was shot down by a Houthi surface-to-air missile,” Deputy Pentagon Press Secretary Sabrina Singh told reporters in response to a question by VOA. Earlier, a U.S. official requesting anonymity to discuss national security issues had confirmed to VOA the U.S.… Read more »

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

@George. And a very good example of the kind of person Nigel is when somebody challenges him?

Dokis
Dokis
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

I do not want to imagine discussing football with you. Anyway I guess you should drop this subject, and adjust yourself the reasons no military agrees with you

Dokis
Dokis
1 month ago
Reply to  Dokis

Sorry typo, “just ask”

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Dokis

It’s called panic buying Dorkis, and most European nations are purchasing them in small numbers and only after the completion of block 4 which will also require the upgraded engines. I suggest you read this article in full via the attached link to get the picture of where the F-35 is and what it has to offer us before the 2030s. I live in the real world, not fantasy fleet land wasting time and money on what is a failed project unable to deliver what it said it could when we signed up to the deal. Also, we will nor… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  Dokis

Nigel shows his true colours when discussing F35. He doesn’t discuss at all.Just shouts at people. Greece will soon become the 19th F35 customer. Tats that are lost on Nigel.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  George Allison

Not wrong though am I. If you think his comments are acceptable. Then that is a very bad reflection on the site.

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Gone are the days then that you can repair a Sea Harrier with baked bean can.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonno

😂

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonno

Why,oh why did they ditch them Hienz lost a valuable customer well done MOD

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonno

I think we should have our next Destroyers named the Type 57’s. Weren’t destroyers called tin cans? Or was that American speak?
No I’m not on the Heinz payroll but maybe they will make me an offer!😄
They really did repair a Harrier in the Falklands with part of a tin can.

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

👍Exactly!

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

“Given that the F-35 is slated to replace the F-16s, A-10s, AV-8B Harriers, F/A-18E Hornets, and F/A-18F Super Hornets, this decision calls for a thorough reassessment.”

Not entirely true!
F/A-18E/F Super-Hornets to be eventually replaced by the F/A-XX in mid 2030’s. Only FA-18C/D legacy Hornets are being replaced by F-35C’s.
F-16’s are still in production, and be still into the 2030s!
Not many ANG units have replaced their F-16s, still 900 so in operation in U.S.

Do ANG units really need to replace all their F-16’s with F-35As?

Last edited 1 month ago by Meirion X
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Eventually, yes, but as you may recall they were scheduled to be replaced by the F-35. What changed? The F-35 will be used by the Department of Defense (DOD), as well as seven international partners, to perform a wide range of missions. 1 DOD aims to procure 2,470 F-35s to replace several other aircraft used by the Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps. To date, the program has delivered over 900 aircraft to the U.S. services, international partners, and foreign military sales customers. The program completed development of the F-35’s original baseline capabilities in 2018 and is nearing the end… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  Meirion X

To be brutally honest in a benign environment a F35 is overkill. A F15/16 is perfectly capable to succeed in its mission most of the time. The problem comes when it faces a peer aircraft or a multi-layered air defence system. Which is why the F35 is crucial. So in reality being able to balance the mission needs vs mission success. Is where you analyse the mix of “4th and 5th” gen aircraft. The cost to purchase and support the 5th gen aircraft must be a huge driver. Not forgetting keeping your 4th gen aircraft up to date, so its… Read more »

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Frank how do you define “full-scale production” ? LM are about to deliver their 1000 Airframe. Which is more than any European airframe in the last 30 years.
Or are they all still in pre production ?

monkey spanker
monkey spanker
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

I think full production is defined when they meet the requirements set out. The testing and development was decided to be done along side the earlier production. Or it’s when it’s at full production speed and capability was specified. Can’t remember really.
The problem of adding capabilities into program has been a problem and causes delays. Block 4 was meant to deliver 66 capabilities. It’s now at over 80 and keeps getting bigger.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  monkey spanker

MS Thanks for confirming my thoughts, production has been at nearly full capacity, (which is @130 pa), but full capability isn’t reached till Block 4 is finished. And then 🤞🏻the existing ones can be upgraded and re engined at £££££ cost. I think it is fair to say I am more than slightly fed up with relentless torrent of negativity about the F35 from a certain person. The fact is we and most of the West have committed to buying them and there is no viable alternative. But I’d be a lier if I said I wasn’t very nervous about… Read more »

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

I’m sure they did design in a good margin for power growth 20 years ago. They just didn’t expect it would have to last for 25 years before upgrade. And you know how it goes over time, as requirements expand to fill the supply available. I expect there were idiots who told the programme office Agile means they can continously change their mind about requirements. So they did.

Peter S
Peter S
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Totally agree. Despite a recent statement from a defence minister that our plan to buy 138 remains , I just don’t believe it. Tempest is 12 + years away from IOC even if development runs smoothly. Typhoons are being hard used. So, following Spain and Germany and buying additional Typhoons must be the best/ only way to restore some of the air power we have lost over the last 15 years.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

A relentless torrent of reality helps to keep people up to date with the facts. And don’t forget, the F-35 production line is scheduled to close in 2035. If the new engines and Block 4 are completed in 2029 (I wouldn’t hold my breath), 1. when can we expect to see them installed on our F-35Bs, and 2. when will Meteor and Spear 3 reach FOC? There will be a very long queue waiting for theirs to be added too. With a backlog of aircraft already waiting to be delivered, and a statement from the Minister for Defence stating that… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

December 12, 2023 F-35 JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER More Actions Needed to Explain Cost Growth and Support Engine Modernization Decision Statement of Jon Ludwigson, Director, Contracting and National Security Acquisitions “Joint Strike Fighter. The F-35 program is a family of fifth-generation strike fighter aircraft that integrates low-observable (stealth) technology with advanced sensors and computer networking capabilities. The F-35 will be used by the Department of Defense (DOD), as well as seven international partners, to perform a wide range of missions.1 DOD aims to procure 2,470 F-35s to replace several other aircraft used by the Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps. To… Read more »

Malcolm Rich
Malcolm Rich
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Just to clarify the Lightning II has been cleared for all weather flying (including Lightning) by both US and UK certification bodies. Fact not fiction.
Having previously been involved directly or indirectly and knowing the teams at PAX river and QinetiQ would make this very clear to all if it could not.
I remember when Eurofighter had not been cleared for Lightning and was at the Farnborough air show and the team (Qinetiq) were watching carefully to ensure it went nowhere near the clouds 🙂

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Malcolm Rich

When was this exactly @Malcolm Rich?
Do you have a link?

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Again @Malcolm Rich, I would be greatful if you can provide me with a link and time these restrictions were lifted. November 21, 2022 at 1:38 PM “Although flight restrictions remain in place — and fighter pilots avoid training in thunderstorms regardless of what aircraft they are operating — there have been cases where F-35 pilots have found themselves flying in inclement weather and were struck by lightning. As of late January 2022, F-35 units across Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy had reported 15 lightning strikes that have caused damage to F-35s operating in midair” “Lightning restrictions will be… Read more »

Malcolm Rich
Malcolm Rich
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Not something I am allowed to supply, you may be talking about a recent restriction due new equipment on recent aircraft deliveries. This does not affect UK aircraft delivered and in service. All aircraft get lightning tested from sub-components up with a full aircraft test, if a recent modification has to still meet all these requirements then that affects these modified aircraft. If the modifications have not been retrospectively applied to ours then not applicable.

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Open source suggests F-35 was banned from flying in lightning in early 2010s, unbanned in 2014, then the F-35A only was rebanned in 2020. The redesigned F-35As protection system (OBIGGs) that allowed the unbanning in 2014 was found to have further flaws leading to the 2020 ban. F-35B has a different version and the issues don’t seem to arise. I haven’t found any reports on permission for F-35A being restored and mention of it as late as the middle of last year, when LM revealed it was an issue that arose in the field rather than during installation. So just… Read more »

Nick P
Nick P
1 month ago

Point defence is just .5machine gun(s). Are there more than 2 F35’s embarked? PoW seems to be under armed.

BobA
BobA
1 month ago
Reply to  Nick P

I think you can qualify for that remark when you correctly identify weapon systems and count correctly.

Photos showed GPMG and video had 3 F35s. And it’s not like we’re being shown everything going on so you can only make deductions so far from open source.

Nick P
Nick P
1 month ago
Reply to  BobA

I am pleased to be wrong about the number of aircraft embarked. I am also very impressed with PoW being at sea at such short notice. I stand by my comment that the ship itself is lightly armed.

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago
Reply to  BobA

They’ve got the 4.5″s hidden and flush with the fight deck everything will be OK.

Enobob
Enobob
1 month ago
Reply to  Nick P

There was widespread coverage of the EIGHT 617 Sqn F-35 ‘s embarking.

Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  Enobob

Any chance you can share the link please, I’m dammed if i can find anything…. I did see a pic with 4 or 5 on deck though.

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

Post a link on this site!? Instead search

Youtube Navy Lookout HMS Prince of Wales embarks multiple jets for the first time
It’s in the video caption: 8 F-35 jets embarked on #hmsprinceofwales in the North Sea ahead of exercise Steadfast Defender 2024 in the High North

monkey spanker
monkey spanker
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

Haha. You know better than to try links now.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

Now I understand why we have a full complement (8) of F-35Bs onboard.

15 Feb 2024

“Following Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Allies have further strengthened NATO’s deterrence and defence, creating the most comprehensive defence plans since the end of the Cold War. Steadfast Defender 24 is the first large-scale NATO exercise to put these new defence plans into action.

https://

youtube.com/watch?v=–ihjSPi7mc

Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  Nick P

She was rushed out of port just 5 years after commissioning so there was no time to fit any 30mm or Phalanx …. there are more F35’s on her but no figures have been confirmed anywhere I’ve looked….. I think it’s just short of the Full load of 36……… 🙄

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

They could add a couple of 40mm, rear port and forward starboard, complement the Phalanx’s. Plus some Sea Ancilla type launchers that could take decoys, LMM, Starstreak. Might help. Might not, no idea. Hope something more substantial is in the planning.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

The question is what the sponsons can take dynamically. When you fire a gun it isn’t just the weight of the gun and it isn’t a lot of good if the thing flexes due to the explosive forces and recoil? Although the effects can be calculated out there comes a point where the sponson will start to permanently deform. If they can take 40mm then that is all well and good. As I said below the issue with short range missiles is are they actually any better than 40mm range wise or in any other way? It is a lot… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago

In WW2 we fitten twin 4.5in mounts to the edges of our carrier flight deck (Some had flat roofs level with the deck, look them up it’s funny). Those must have had some serious magazines going on plus armour. A 3 tonne 40mm +ammo hardly compares.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

I know but that AA was designed in from the start….

I suspect that 40mm would be absolutely fine.

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago

But that’s anti helicopter or anti drone with reasonable time to react and slow-moving targets. As a result, ammo size was prioritised with the funky rotating mechanism that needs time to spin up when firing.
Bofors 40mm is meant at least in theory to deal with anti ship missiles using 3P or standard proximity fused, so it has a conventional mechanism.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

You know my preference for 40 or even 57mm!

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago

That reply is actually referring to the CTA40 thread down below, I got mixed up with a reply there and didn’t check what the thing I was replying to referred to. Anyway, back to task.
I doubt 57mm would be all that useful, at that range you’re shooting past the escorts and you don’t have the fire rate for CIWS. The best thing would be to have 4 40s, one at each corner, with a small mag each.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

As I said upthread all of this is really for when a QEC is sailing solo or with a
Tide.

Or if it is sailing with a singleton escort that develops a fault.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Both carriers should have their four gun sponsons beefed up, so that they can carry the Mk110 57mm weapon system. As the 57 is a more flexible and effective weapon system. Perhaps more importantly is that the 57 can fire smart guided ammunition, whereas the 40 can’t. Using guided rounds the fire rate does not need to be as high, as you are using less rounds to intercept the target. Plus the 57 guided round gets to the intercept point much faster than the 40 mm round. As the rounds have a higher muzzle velocity and in the case of… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Good point re the 57, I had forgotten about the potential for guided rounds. ORKA especially seems to be a very useful kit (it isn’t a sabot, more like a stretched 3P shell taking up room in the cartridge for a guidance system and fins). MAD-FIRES seems to be the thing for missile defence but needs to be held separate from a joint/US project or each round will end up costing more than CAMM. T83 and future ships should use the 57 like the Italians use the 76 Sovraponte, as a secondary close in gun (not true CIWS) for missile… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Just checked ORKA, oops my bad, definitely not a sabot round. Though it should still have a higher muzzle velocity that the 40mm shell, due to the larger propellant volume. Again it will have an advantage over a standard 3P shell. As it uses semi-active laser homing to guide it towards the target. In a lot of respects MAD-FIRES is a step above ORKA. For starters it uses semi-active radar homing for its guidance. Which gives it a better all weather capability. It is a true sabot, where the smaller guided dart gets a better boost from standard size propellant… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago

We need to have 8 57 turrets, 2 on each corner, like in WW2! They will have no armament at all until then! And some A30s for good measure!
Or, in the real world, we just put 4 40s on, which weigh less than Phalanx in a pedestal mount and leave it there.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

4 x 40mm would be a massive improvement on current CIWS/boat swarm fit!

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago

And still take up less space and weight than Phalanx + 30mm!
Given that we’ve bought them for T31 (the mounts are probably in a warehouse somewhere) it’s really a no-brainer to make use of this new calibre (which is presumably what the MOD are projecting to use in future) with more economies of scale.
It probably won’t happen until firing trials with T31 though.

David
David
1 month ago

I might agree with you if we weren’t the only carrier operating country without any form of point defence missile systems whatsoever.

Every other country seems to think they are still needed even with escorts – do we know something they don’t? I think not.

The QE’s have no point defence missile systems due to a lack of money – period. All this spouting off about they will always have escorts, etc., is just a bunch of cobblers.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago

Yes, the 40mm mounts may well be too heavy in operation for where the 30mm spots are but they should be able to be strengthened. The forward port 30mm is in a very limited arc spot, looks kind of useless. The port Phalanx could be put on the forward port corner or they could extend a flange alongside the forward port area. But I guess if catapults are going to be put on the deck any weapon systems needs to be well away from these areas. Wonder if there’s any possibility of the UK putting its LMM /Star Streak on… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Quentin D63
ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Precisely where would we find some working 40mm guns ? There are no CIWS fitted nor the DS30.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Pinch the forward 40mm off T31s, there’s five… Lol 😁 or, get building some more. T31 can have two forward MK41s, two back, 8 NSM and maybe squeeze in a 24 CAMM farm.

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Surely we could just order more? Bofors don’t have any issues making them that I have heard of

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Yes, even easier to order new.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

And how does that help now ? We have CIWS somewhere and I realise that given the fast swap over and out to sea they couldn’t shift them over from QE. But if they send POW to the Red Sea then they need to do so.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

With JIT manufacturing I doubt they even actually exist yet and given the way MOD works they certainly won’t have bought any Ammunition beforehand. But somewhere or other we do actually have the CIWS and 30mm that they are designed to carry. QE will be going into Rosyth soon (I’d bet 11-14 March due to tides). I suspect she may be there a while as she is due a refit later this year. So she doesn’t need them ! Personally if there was one thing I’d add to the QE class it would be 2 block sponsons each with 16… Read more »

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

I thought I read somewhere the 30mm can change barrels and use 40mm ammo.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Nick P

Looked like 7.62mm GPMGs to me.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago

Looks like a nice day for target practice. It’s just a shame that’s probably it !
No CIWS, no DS30, no SHORAD whatsoever !
I don’t know if they still have Miniguns or any M2 onboard but if not then it’s down to GPMG, SA80 and some 9mm handguns.

So we have a £3 billion, 65,000 ton Carrier with the Firepower of an Infantry Section or less 😫
Anyone know if an infantry section has Manpads these days ?

Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Manpads…. surely they are now called Personpads….. 🤔

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

😆

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

Penipads would be of more use. PMSL 😂

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Sorry Rodney, my reply is above.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

I’d be quite happy if they just put 4 x 40mm on her. The 40mm can do the combined job of 30mm (but much better) and Phalanx.

The minguns are supposed to be out of service – it was announced.

The do have GPMG and there have been articles on 50cal being gyro stabilised for close in swarm defence.

The problem is that none of the lightweight missiles has a significantly greater engagement range than a 40mm and obviously costs singifcantly more than a 40mm clip.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago

But where do you get the 40mm guns from, they haven’t been in service for decades ? I know the T31 will have some but not yet.
What I’d like to know is where are her CIWS and 30mm ?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

The 40mm for T31 will be in a warehouse somewhere. Bofors 40mm are not that hard to find as they are in serial production.

The 30mm are also in a warehouse somewhere.

That is just penny pinching.

The Phalanx thing is ridiculous as there are plenty in a warehouse.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago

Yep I know we have the 30mm and Phalanx somewhere, I seem to think they get maintained by Babcock at Devonport. And I actually like the 40mm Bofors for the future, but we don’t have them now.

I wish I knew if they are still fitted on QE ?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Phalanx is on QE – there was an article in here about testing.

Harry Bulpit
Harry Bulpit
1 month ago

The whole aircraft carrier with no aircraft is an obvious myth. But it is difficult to not see that the whole, carrier, air wing and carrier group is in a poor state at the moment and it is an equally poor service to pretend otherwise. Quite frankly it’s a national embarrassment.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 month ago
Reply to  Harry Bulpit

Think its more of a case the Navy doing there best really , Lack of aircraft and armament on the vessel is really down to lack of government Will and Investment and bad planing .In all three of the services ,it’s the government who should be embarrassed making our forces look under cut .🇬🇧

Harry Bulpit
Harry Bulpit
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew D

Oh the services and their personal always do their best and are a national treasure. Just look at how quickly pow crew got the ship turned around. Blame lay entirely with the government who continue to pretend we’re a major power, without being willing to fund what is needed to make that reality.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 month ago
Reply to  Harry Bulpit

The forces just do has they told and to call them a national treasure and treat them as there do like bad housing under cutting etc is all wrong by the government .Yes to pretend were a world power is a joke ,I think we just try and keep our hand in with the Yanks and with out been funded properly it’s never going to be easy or work has it should .The Stain is on the men and women of the forces and like I’ve said there do the best they can.It’s the government who are the clowns.Have you… Read more »

Harry Bulpit
Harry Bulpit
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew D

Indeed. No other body off people would be allowed to live in the state that service personnel and their family are allowed. Its outrageous.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 month ago
Reply to  Harry Bulpit

👍

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew D

It was ever thus

For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ Chuck him out, the brute!”

But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;

Tommy, Kipling 1890

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago
Reply to  Harry Bulpit

I’m with you there, its shameful.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

I’m sure George puts article photos like that by design, to enable a reaction. It gets people every single time judging by comments. Of course QEC have more than a GPMG. 🙄

Frank
Frank
1 month ago

Well I hope so….. those killer Tomatoes are pretty aggressive in colder climes…..😉

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

I think they’ll be using iced lettuce instead.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

Fleet Target Coxwains, an elite amongst elites up there with the SBS.

Frank
Frank
1 month ago

😂…. Just reminded me of my old man…… Mum’s gone to meet him now, She’ll soon take charge again !

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

Payback for tthe tomato ketchup genocide.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

Reading comments though, no CIWS? Should at least have those as standard.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 month ago

I guess that’s something what makes sense HMG don’t do sense sadly 🙄 still the Navy sails 🇬🇧

Frank
Frank
1 month ago

Yup… should have four… one for each corner…. and the 30/40mm stuff others mention constantly….. oh and It would be nice to have the “Layers” as envisaged in the “Layered Defence”….. but at least on this exorcise, we have company…… Love the GPMG though….

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

Isn’t that the thing though. The carrier in war always has company, which constitutes it’s AAW defence bar it’s own planes.
Doesn’t excuse the lack of CIWS but there are other vessels around it, if it’s using it’s close in guns, bar CIWS, it’s probably too late.

Frank
Frank
1 month ago

Yes mate… It does… in theory…. But i’m still living in the past I guess….. There were many good reasons to maintain the RN Strength before WW2, not least of these included the United States Red Plan….. Looking west towards Trump Land as I type…..

Coll
Coll
1 month ago

That’s assuming you only think about missiles. There are still threats from boat swarms and the reality of drones big and small.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago

But they are not always in company are they?

What stops a crazy attack when it is in friendly waters in the Med?

In a CSG it isn’t that big an issue: I agree. Even so CIWS is a must.

Thing is these are prestige targets and we don’t need to find out what a ‘spectacular’ looks like.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

Yes, which is why CIWS must surely be standard, and the 40mm you suggest. So cheap too I assume compared to other defence equipment. I also believe, based on many comments read here over the years, that Phalanx especially is not difficult to install nor intrusive below decks.
I though the RN had 40 plus? Even with 2 per T45 and on other vessels are there really none spare?

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago

Yes M8 they should have a sufficient escort force to fully protect them. But unlike every other single Carrier operator we don’t equip ours for the “just in case”.
Which when he have a single T23 Frigate as an escort is just plain stupid. and they don’t carry CIWS.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Morning mate.
Shortage of T45 is biting us. What other NATO vessels are in the group? I’m looking for some sort of mitigating circumstances for a sole T23.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago

Most nations arm their carriers with a 2 or 3 tier Anti art/missile/drone weapons systems. A medium ranged SAM, short ranged SAM, & CIWS. ESSM, RAM & Phalanx in the case of the USN, on both fleet carriers & Marine carriers, the USN having far greater escort availabilty than the RN. The Italians have Asters & 76mm or 40mm which all out range Phalanx by a long way. CDG has Aster & Mistral SAMs & Narwhal 20mm. The Chinese have their RAM equivellent & a several CIWS. Not yet sure what their latest carrier will be fitted with. In WW2,… Read more »

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Yes we lost in action HMS Courageous in 1939 and HMS Glorious in 1940. Thereafter HMS Ark Royal 1941, HMS Hermes and HMS Audacity in 1942. 1943 onwards none!

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonno

Wasn’t Ark Royal in convoy?
And Audacity, which hardly counts as it was an escort carrier with, I believe, 2 working aircraft when it sank

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

Yes but most were sunk by subs, only Hermes was sunk by Air Attack.

Jon
Jon
1 month ago

Of course it has more than GPMGs. It has .50 calibers as well. If it’s good enough for Boxer….

Last edited 1 month ago by Jon
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

Russia’s ships are festooned with weapons. Doesn’t seem to help them much. But the carriers must surely have 3x CIWS and the cannons as minimum. Anything more, I get why the RN don’t think it necessary.

JK
JK
1 month ago

There’s always a lot of discussion over the CIWS of our carriers, and I’ve often wondered if using a naval version of the 40CT would be a good option for not only our carrier, but other ships.

The general consensus on here seems to be that 40mm guns would be better than the 30mm ones, and as France already has a naval version of the gun called Rapidfire, I think, what do people on here think about using something similar for our ships?

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  JK

Looks impressive.

RAPIDFire naval gun system with LMM missiles by KNDS and Thales
https://

youtube.com/watch?v=9Q7IEJiKtPY

Coll
Coll
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

I will assume you are aware of the successful test of the LMM on a 30mm gun. Yet, the RN chose not to integrate it because of the rocket flame. It’s not like they could have a bit of metal to redirect the flame. If it’s successful, CAN it. Even my comment is still on that video from 8 months ago. But this stuff would be nice to have.

Last edited 1 month ago by Coll
Coll
Coll
1 month ago
Reply to  Coll

Add a note: I watched a Dr in naval history talk about how certain weapons could have been taken off because of peacetime to reduce maintenance.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  Coll

I believe Kraken have designed a 30mm us 4 LMM/Marlet RWS. I think this is a UK company too!? SEA, another UK company, have the trainable Decoy launcher that I think can take LMM /Marlet as well. You wonder why seemingly nothing is being done to fix these gaps with defensive gaps on the carriers when it is done on the RN ships? Not sure if the RFAs, Argus, Albions, Bays, Points, are fully covered, but most seem to have a Phalanx and 30mm.

Ian M
Ian M
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

CT40 can fire 6 or 7 different natures including programmable airburst and anti aerial airburst so very useful against UAV’s.

Last edited 1 month ago by Ian M
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Ian M

👍

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago
Reply to  JK

We’ve just bought into the Bofors 40mm system for T31 which is comparable with the CTA40 and has numerous advantages:

  • Ammo costs less
  • Can be used non-deck penetrating
  • No time needed to spin up mechanism first. (Bad for CIWS)

The Bofors is just a much better gun, the CTA was designed to have penetration for light AT like the Rarden cannon before it.
“Something similar” for the Navy would very much be Bofors 40mm mk4.

Ian M
Ian M
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

No ‘spin up’ on a CT40.

Ian M
Ian M
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

CT40 fires 6 or 7 different natures, including programmable rounds.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  JK

We are actually buying new up to date Bofors 40mm for the T31 so going for the French CT wouldn’t be a good idea as the ammunition is incompatable.

Jon
Jon
1 month ago

In WW2 the main gun of the Flower class was so bad, if they forced a sub to the surface it became standard practice to ram the sub rather than shoot it. 65,000 tons of aircraft carrier could have all sorts of fun chasing small attack craft, don’t you think?

J c
J c
1 month ago

When other countries are putting long range defensive and attack missiles on their main surface vessels Britain is playing tough with small arms training aboard their main surface vessels. Give me a break. Failed icbm tests, broken ships, woke, diversified equal opportunities armed forces is making us a joke. I’ve never seen our military abilities, might and standards slip so far as it is today. Heaven help our future.

Coll
Coll
1 month ago
Reply to  J c

I’ve been watching this guy for the past three weeks. He did a video on the launch. https://
youtube.com/watch?v=d6ZncW2Kv1k&t=26s

Last edited 1 month ago by Coll
David Smile
David Smile
1 month ago

Surprised no one is as yet bemoaning the fact that the carriers doesn’t any grappling hooks, blunderbuses,and boarding ladders, nor have any 14 inch gun batteries fitted, you know, just incase it may need to carry out a shore bombardment 😉

I’m no expert, but isn’t a carriers primarily role to be a floating airfield, not a Swiss army knife bristling with guns and weapon systems, isn’t that the job of the various war ships etc that accompany it, and if that’s all failed, you got far bigger issue that no amount of expensive weapon systems will fix

Coll
Coll
1 month ago
Reply to  David Smile

Excuse me, that’s a 14-inch gun ‘fitted but not with’ thank you very much. Tbf, the smaller Italian carrier ‘Trieste’ has a better armament.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  Coll

Have you ever had a really good look at how the Italians arm their modern ships, they’re armed to the teeth. Just compare an Italian to a French FREMM ! They even like multiple gun mounts.

Coll
Coll
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Yes, that’s what I said, didn’t I? The Italian Trieste is heavily armed. They seem to have more sense of preservation for their ships.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  David Smile

The RN is pretty unique compared to other carrier operators in its self defence armament. Just a CIWS(not even that currently fitted to POW) is a reckless gamble & needless vulnerability. It is short sighted penny pinching. By the time a missile is within range of a Phalanx CIWS it’s virtually too late anyway. That’s why many would like to see 40mm instead as that has double the effective range, plus a SAM system would be wise. People spin that carriers are always escorted, but so are all the other carriers across the world that all have 1 or 2… Read more »

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

As I said earlier we don’t have 40mm guns so it’s a non starter. Ship,is designed to carry 3 CIWS and 3/4 30mm. But they aren’t on board for some reason.

Coll
Coll
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

On Dr Alexander Clarke’s channel, he is spending this year going through this year looking at the history of the aircraft carrier. He is working his way up to the Queen Elizabeth carrier in November. He also did a great video on the Type 26. I can’t promote him enough, such an interesting channel.

Coll
Coll
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

I was watching Dr Alexander Clarke last night and he mentioned that weapons could removed because to reduce maintenance in peacetime.

Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  David Smile

I think the main aim is to remain floating.

Marius
Marius
1 month ago

😂😂

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago

Bit like switching on the windscreen wipers to show of the power of your sports car! I suspect the point is rather that she’s shaking up ready for full ops, even though missing her CIWS.
A few GMPGs would be extremely lucky to stop drones & hopeless against jets & missiles.

Mr Smooth
Mr Smooth
1 month ago

What a wank headline by the shitty ukdefencejournal. Might aswel as said, HMS Prince of Wales opens fire on fish and thin air. Wank journalism.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

But it’s far cheaper than flying an F-35B without running the risk of one dropping off the end 😂

Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Rooaar, plop.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank

😂

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago

Right, Weapon engineer head on…click…booting…right ready to go… Yes it should have Phalanx. It hasn’t because of the short time between activation for the task and leaving the wall. The Fleet HQ would have put it in the risk matrix, sussed out it’s not going to war and said ok we will live with it not having phalanx for an EXERCISE! Force Protection fit is GPMG and 50cal with Wildcat Martlett. 30 would be nice with the EO directors but again its an exercise. Fit 40mm, RAM etc … (At least nobody said its plug and play….that would have triggered… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Oh, but we like Top Trumps! With a 50 year life left for the carriers, surely it’s worth upgrading now as Phalanx begins to go out of date?
GB, how many heads do you actually have? You reply with such detail to comments, I sort of imagine you with a warehouse somewhere full of different heads to put on.
You and DaveyB are two of the best assets of UKDJ

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Seconded.

Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Yes, you can’t beat a good old game of Top Trumps, warships edition….

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Phalanx is not the same as it was when it first came into service. New radars and trackers. Better processing power. TI EO sight on the side. Reloading system is on mount and way quicker to use. Its a completely different beast from the first iteration in the 70s.

Bit like a T23…The only thing thats the same on them is the shape inside and kit wise they are completely different from when they first came into service.

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

It has been described on here that the entire Phalanx concept of firing a wall or metal at short range is obsolescent due to the speed of new weapons and insensitive munitions.
You’d know more than me about that but there doesn’t seem to be anyone plugging the “Pure CiWS” any more; the Americans like RAM and the Europeans seem to be going for smart ammo in larger guns. Only the Russians and the Chinese are still going for rate of fire over all.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Hi GB, An engineer is a multi headed, re programable thinker with numerous hands and is presumed to never sleep. 😉 Just keep topped up with Tea / Hob Nobs and allowed to let off Steam now and then (preferably with a Pint). Do you know if QE is still fitted with her 3 CIWS and if POW is able to receive them ? The reason for my latter question is I’ve never seen any mounted on her and it would be silly to just assume MOD didn’t cut that bit out. Yes I used the ASSUME word and that’s… Read more »

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

You mean you think it wasn’t just a time thing but that the carrier is deliberately not getting CWIS as a choice? I don’t think that choice would be MOD, not unless they decided to retire all Phalanx on cost grounds. If you are asking has QNLZ ever had Phalanx the answer is definitely yes, and so has Prince of Wales.

Last edited 1 month ago by Jon
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Has the QE Class been tested for additional weapons seen onboard the Ford class Carriers?

Gerald R Ford class
Surface-to-air missiles:2 × RIM-162 ESSM launchers2 × RIM-116 RAM Guns: 3 × Phalanx CIWS 4 × Mk 38 25 mm Machine Gun Systems 4 × M2 .50 Cal. (12.7 mm) machine guns

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

HI Nige, If you look at the new USS Ford carrier. One thing you’ll notice straight away, is the large area turned over to self-defence. This area is right next to the stern landing area on the angled deck. The flight deck in my opinion has a lot of wasted space. If you compare the Ford to the QE Class, you’ll see the flight deck of the QE is very rectangular. Where the surface area has been maximised to allow for more deck space. The Ford looses a fair bit of deck space to the VLS and other self defence… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Many thanks, Davey, I was curious to see if it was a possibility that might be included at a future date provided there was the space available and the build could accommodate this without extra strengthening of the ship’s superstructure.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Mate, anything is possible, if there is funding available! As much as I’d like the carriers to get a CAMM farm. I doubt it will happen any time soon. The RN’s priority for funding will be building and fitting out the new T26/31 escorts and getting them into service ASAP to replace the worn out T23s. Plus up-arming the T45s with CAMM and NSM. There is a valid discussion to be had about putting CAMM on to the carriers. Yes, they will have UK and NATO escorts on Exercises and a proper task group when on Operations or a World… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

One other point, If we combine the current proposal for installing EMALS onboard the carries combined with the Ski Ramp, is it possible to launch the F/A-18 Super Hornets from the carriers?

It would appear from the video that EMALS might not even be required to do so.

262 m Indias Aircraft Carriers Length

280 metres QE Class Length

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wga-hHIYAa0

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

One other point, If we combine the current proposal for installing EMALS onboard the carries combined with the Ski Ramp, is it possible to launch the F/A-18 Super Hornets from the carriers?
It would appear from the video that EMALS might not even be required to do so.

262 m Indias Aircraft Carriers Length
280 metres QE Class Length

https://

youtube.com/watch?v=wga-hHIYAa0

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

As far as I am aware there is no proposal to install US EMALS; there is an investigation on installing a lower powered catapult. You are quite right, it isn’t necessary to install a catapult of any kind to fly Super Hornets, Rafales and most likely F-35Cs from the QECs. You’d need arrestors of course as you don’t want to launch anything you can’t land. They would have to work to a restricted weight, and the range would also be limited unless the ability to do an immediate refuel after launch was available. Given the kind of bombs/missiles the UK… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

Hi Jon, it was the lower-powered catapult I was referring too in my original post. Apologies if I did not make that any clearer!

My train of thought is to allow as many NATO-friendly aircraft the ability to fly off and land onboard our carriers making them a more flexible platform.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

I’m think the most important aspect is that the ship gets the angled flight deck, that includes the arrestor system and a safety barrier. This would mean any carrier qualified aircraft could at least land on the ship, if it’s in an emergency. Even the F35Bs if they have an issue trying to go into vertical mode. Currently an aircraft could probably land on the carrier conventionally but it is unlikely to stop before falling off. Both Rafale and the FA-18 E/F have shown they can take-off using a ski ramp. However, much like the Mig-29K and Su-33. They will… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by DaveyB
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

So, the combination of the angled flight deck and the proposed lower-powered EMALS would work in theory?

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Yes, if we’re taking about a conventional fixed wing aircraft using the ski ramp. Bearing mind the reduced load the aircraft takes off with.

Sadly the MoD’s specification requirements for the EMALs, is below the minimum take-off weight of Rafale, F18, Hawkeye and F35C. It won’t be man enough to launch these aircraft to flight speed.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

If an aircraft carrier with no air defence of its own, needs to fire a GPMG then its time pack up. All its fitted defences are last ditch close in. And its escorts lack SSM systems, and have limited long range air defence ammo. . As always big shinny toy just hope it never goes to war. It and the escorts might be found very lacking.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

It was interesting to read over ‘Janes that they are looking to prioritise Frigates over their AEW&C programme. Clearly, we need to get ours into service ASAP.. Singapore Airshow 2024: Indonesia proposes delaying AEW&C programme to fund frigates26 February 2024 The Indonesian Ministry of Defense (MoD) has submitted a proposal to the country’s Ministry of Finance, requesting to cancel the foreign loan approvals allocated for an airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft and 15 other smaller procurement programmes. Instead, the MoD wants these allocations to be diverted to a long-delayed effort to equip the Indonesian Navy with Frégate Européenne… Read more »

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

i do not live in Indonesia , but thank for the facts

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

🙄

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

GPMG and 50 cal is force protection against surface targets during high threat/risk evolutions such as entering leaving harbour. You cannot practise firing drills alongside in Portsmouth, the Gosport residence may get a bit grumpy…

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Yes i have fired and carried the GPMG, and only fired the 50 cal, my point really was that the two carriers lack much self defence yes they have escorts but every thing on a carrier is last ditch/close in