Lord Owen, known to many as Lord David Anthony Llewellyn Owen, elucidated Britain’s strategic stance towards China during a recent debate in the House of Lords.
Lord Owen emphasised the grave implications of China’s decision to disregard the Hong Kong treaty.
Highlighting Britain’s maritime policy, he stated, “…the impact of seeing a British aircraft carrier in Pacific waters, supported by escort vessels from the United States, Australia and New Zealand, matters to American public opinion.”
This move, in Owen’s view, is not only a potent symbol of international unity against emerging threats but also deeply resonates with Americans, who are growing increasingly apprehensive about China’s ascendancy.
Owen noted, “Many of them [Americans] are more concerned about China than about what is happening in Ukraine.” This shift in American sentiment accentuates the importance for allies like Britain to visibly demonstrate their commitment to shared security objectives.
Reflecting on his personal connections to the U.S., Lord Owen remarked, “There is inherently in the American people a capacity to do the right thing; they have done it in two world wars—though both times a little too late.”
Nice photo and sentiment.
On the American capacity to do the right thing being inherent…
To quote Alexis de Toqueville. “ Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”
That’s from the writer’s assumption that evangelist religion is a sign of goodness when equally it is about self serving manipulation and even malevolence at times as we see with the new far right in the Bible Belt now, after all would he feel the same about extremist Islamic outpourings from the Mosques? Fact is America may certainly have been empowered and held together by the self perceived mythical concept and power of religious freedoms when in fact its very origin in the Pilgrim Fathers was actually about denying religious or non religious freedoms or a willingness to be part… Read more »
My understanding is that de Toqueville was contrasting how the US republic was prospering while after the French revolution France was a basket case for a long time. He put this difference down to his observation that in France the state and the ( catholic) church were in opposition, whereas in the US state and church were aligned. The French only really sorted this out when ‘laicité’ was enshrined in law in 1905. Though even today many French take the view that laicité ( separation of church and state) is just a cover for anti-clericalism ( of any religion). Agree… Read more »
Lacité was an.important part of the revolution from the start.
Yes, it just took a few iterations of the republic idea to get it right 🙂
In my living experience and observations
I find that USA or the West as whole are no friend of democracy.
During the cold war period blood letting in the 3rd world bares witness to that.
West got rid democratically elected governments in the 3rd world because they wanted to help their own people.
West only does that suits it’s economic and political interests.
China is no more dangerous today than during the period of war in Korea.
There is some truth in what you say, however in moments of doubt on the subject of the West and democracy you should consider this-no one EVER tried to get into East Germany from the West nor from South Korea (apart from a single freak incident recently) to North Korea.People are lining up in their millions to enter Europe and the USA so this process speaks volumes.
Regards from South Africa
Crackpot
👍
Broadly agree with your summary Spy. However as an Americophile, I would argue that we should beware of generalisations. The USA is a nation of 350 million human beings with no two alike! There are many “Good Americans” who to a varying degree have a strong regard for the British people and cherish the links of language and history, and have assisted the UK in many times of peril. There was a US politician who in various ways, assisted us during the Falklands War. His roots were Ulster Protestant but from some generations back so one would think considerably diluted.… Read more »
WE DO NOT WANT RELIGION ON HERE, OR POLITICS, go back to bed
Have you actually heard the perversion of Christianity that is vomiting from the pulpits of Trump loving, evangelical churches in the US.
No I haven’t. As they say, that’s better out than in 😂
As an American and a Christiaan this really makes me sad to see. I don’t understand it at all. His ‘cult’ sadly has co-opted Christianity here. There are even billboards that evangelical organizations put up that basically say trump was sent by god to save the country. This is a man who brags about all the women he slept with, he cheated on his wife with a porn star just a couple years before the election, he can’t quote a single bible verse and while speaking at a christian conference he was asked if hes ever asked God for forgiveness… Read more »
Surely it’s time to see an exercise in the full surge conditions that the ships have been designed to be able to achieve this is a vital part of the ships abilities to do what it says on the tin can it deliver the proposed sortie rate over a 24 hour period?
Let’s be honest, the severance of church and state in the former 13 colonies was because the clergy swore allegiance to the King not for some idealism about republic! 🤦♂️
The UK’s constitution welded church, state and parliament together in a unique way. Once a colony declares independence it is breaks from that model and adopts a more flexible model in which the head of state is elected and is not constitutionally linked in law to a particular religious sect.
When a third of the said population declares that independence it turns into terrorism of the other two thirds that are against it and is illegal. Such is the delusion of American history.
History is written by the winners; even our own 🙂
Ha, yes, that famous fallacy “The British are coming”…
Indeed, I see Grant Schapps is sending UK troops to Ukraine and wants to use the RN to escort grain ships through the Black Sea. I’m sure he will leading from the front.
W🩸⚓R.
Wtf?
This is NOT A SITE FOR RELIGION, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
“America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”
That applies to us too. I think we’ve been swallowing a lot of evil here in recent decades. PMs that routinely lie, Trumpism, the worship of greed, demonisation of the poor & needy etc.
Yes, I agree. I have come to the conclusion that our falling away from our Christian heritage is the reason the West is struggling against the wave of Authoritarianism. Bringing the church under the umbrella of the state and the pursuit of wealth was the UK solution to the wars of religion which followed the reformation. So today our gods are money and diversity. The cabinet can boast Hindus and Muslims as well as ‘christians’ because what they all have in common is a worship of money. Clever trick, no 🙂 But eventually people see through the trick when you… Read more »
Yet the very people who wish for an authoritarian regime in the US profess to be the most committed Christians. So I’m not sure that your analogy holds up. Neither do I understand why having differing faiths in the cabinet means that they are worshiping money.
I have no first hand experience of any of the US Christian groups. From a distance it does seem that some of their members have a fanatical mindset. It’s pretty much always a bad thing to become fanatical. My mother used to say God give me the grace to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can and the wisdom to know the difference. That said I do admire the US ‘can do’ outlook on life. The ‘pro choice’ groups managed to get the US Supreme Court to rule in favour of their interpretation of the… Read more »
They got the US Supreme court to overturn Roe v Wade by firstly having a republican senate refuse to allow an Obama replacement judge and then packing the court with right wing, Christian fundementalists who having assured Congress that Roe v Wade was established law promptly overturned it. ie. They lied. So yes, it sounds pretty authoritarian.to me. And I simply couldn’t follow the logic of your last point.
Just to clarify; the pro-choice ( pro abortion) group, having realised that they were not going to win a nationwide democratic argument, leveraged the Supreme Court by having sympathetic judges agree a spurious interpretation of the constitution; that state abortion restrictions constituted an infringement of constitutional right to privacy. The current set of judges have taken the view that the right to or availability of abortion has nothing to the constitutional right to privacy and have sent the issue back to the state legislatures, which is where it should be decided; it is something which the people ought to decide… Read more »
how can the Americans say that they are united? A nation that does not have a mechanism where states or people who want to leave the union can’t do it.a nation that puts it’s entire existence in a tatty constitution drawn from the English magna carta. Treat the United States of America doesn’t exist it’s a myth
Well I certainly agree that the near sacred American constitution is a bit of an antiquated joke, normally waved around by right wing fanatics, however to pretend that the most powerful nation on earth doesn’t exist is, I think, a bit over the top. I would also add that those who wish to leave the union are the very people who endlessly bang on about patriotism and fidelity to the constitution. Odd that. Plus, of course the right wing, republican lead states whose representatives shout the loudest about leaving would be bankrupt within days, depending, as they do, on federal… Read more »
RUBBISH.. GO AWAY FROM THE BIBLE THB THUMPING AND GO TO A TRAINSPOTTING SITE YOUR RELIGIOUS PONTIFICATING HAS NO PLACE ON A SITE DEDICATED TO MILITARY ISSUES
Oooooh. I think I’ll leave any decision on that to the mods. In the meantime have a nice day.
A
America is not a good as it like to portray itself. It should realise that most of the world is sick of its attempts to portray itself as the protector to the world from everything from terrorism to democracy, it has failed to notice that all of the close allies have little trust in them and their foreign adventures.
I don’t want a RN Carrier and escorts in the Pacific if things kicked off with China.
The RN and any other European assistance should help cover the west, and the Indian Ocean.
Agreed. I believe that US defence secretary has said that he sees greater value in UK carriers concentrating their resources in areas nearer to home rather than trying to operate globally, without the necessary scale.( July2021)
That’s very interesting. I take ‘greater value’ to mean that’s what we would prefer to see you do. Certainly, what with the North Atlantic, the Gulf, the Chinese creeping around Cape Horn to Argentina and both Chinese and Russian aspirations for naval bases in East Africa the RN has enough on its plate with committing significant resources further east.
Though nothing you say is in any way invalid (add South Africa, mind) I’ll again make mention that looking at a Globe offers a better strategic picture than looking just at a Mercator projection. The Chinese do not have to creep around Cape Horn i.e. to threaten the Falklands among much else. They, with Russian coordination, can make a far quicker approach by transiting the Arctic to reach the UK maritime domain & NATO generally, particularly the usual wartime supply routes across the Atlantic. The US political elite, at least those with a firm grounding in intelligence – however you… Read more »
Yes, quite right. I did think I should have emphasised the northern approaches more after I had penned the note. What seems to have happened is that, if I could use a medical analogy, the cancer of Authoritarianism has metastasised. The prognosis is not good. Its beyond surgery. We need whatever the diplomatic, economic and military equivalent is of targeted chemotherapy and to persuade the world’s immune system to recognize the problem and root it out.
If Trump gets back in power authoratarianism will take over the USA. He’s Putin’s poodle.
China already has a base in Djibouti just a few miles west of the US/Fr one. Even lased a US aircraft a few years ago.
Indeed takes weight off US carriers in the Atlantic/Northern region than offering much in the Pacific. But valuable in that in and of itself. But the rest is more flag waving and offering support in mind more than actuality. Anything else would be something akin to PofW and Repulse in 1942.
You wonder if the USN might learn the same lesson as us in 41. One carrier worth 15 billion is a bit of a glass sword. What’s one carrier going to do in the pacific.
So long as it’s integrated into the US & allied presence, it’s a considerable boost to the deterrent against the PRC.
Force Z was a deterrent designed to integrate with fast cruiser force to defend Dutch East Indies. That’s why the took it out on day one.
I think if things kick off big time against China the US defence secretary would quickly reconsider his position. If you ask me, a war with China is going to be very costly very quickly with losses on both sides and I believe the US will be glad of another flat-top – especially since they are fighting so far from home with stretched supply lines. That said, the US knows we don’t have the planes to fly off our own carrier as we should (that’s a topic for another day) but will be happy to augment with US Marine F-35s… Read more »
US F-35 resources will be fully committed to US flat tops. They have a dozen LHD/LHA’s themselves alone. The US won’t be augmenting allies in a world war 3, thats why the capability needs to be organic among NATO nations.
I will agree for the organic need to put a full carrier wing on each of our own carriers (which will never happen) but I wouldn’t bet against the US augmenting us come a fist-fight with the Chinese.
US aircraft will be in the fight either way – some would just fly from UK carriers that’s all. The US wouldn’t be gifting them to us. No doubt in any punch-up in the SCS, our carriers would be under US command anyway.
In any major peer conflict, smaller allies will be running to the bigger ‘prepared’ nations for assistance. The UK is still in the ‘big prepared’ department and that contributes to why the US values the relationship so much. The UK can and does act autonomously, it’s in the country’s MO. You can’t say that about the Germans, Spanish, Italians etc.. They’ll be looking to the UK for guidance, much like we have seen in Ukraine. The UK has to be ready.
It’s not just the US, Italy, Japan and Singapore all operating F35B as well.
Depends how many flat tops survive, the US can also crank out 150 F35’s a year but one LHD takes nearly 5 years.
Just an Astute or two over the pole to the Western Pacific should be our contribution. Maybe a support ship as well but only if operating within a US fleet.
The threat of that alone will be a considerable contribution, and probably far more potent than a carrier.
Agree. The USN would be better served gunning for the Chinese using hunter killers as ASW is China’s Achilles heel.
Sad to say war is coming, the US and it’s allies in the Pacific know it. Our government is the only Western nation not reinvigorating defence forces and putting back on critical mass foolishly reduced after the cold war, austerity etc.
The best thing we can do is make sure that the US don’t need to do our and Europe’s job for them, free them up from having forces tied up in the North Atlantic and Europe. That’s our backyard. Our responsibility. The Pacific is the US backyard.
From a defence perspective all we do is weaken ourselves by stretching ourselves too thinly.
The Pacific tilt is nothing to do with defence though. Its all about building trade relationships. Money. The only thing our political class think matters.
I agree. It is.
Agree, the UK is actually perusing it’s own agenda in the region, part of which is supporting the US as well as Japan and Australia. But the IO is our primary area of interest outside the Euro Mediterranean area. We have bases and even territory there. The IO will be key to winning against China if the US pacific strategy fails.
Then why do we keep gifting Sri Lanka to China?
We’ve written off a fantastic Indian Ocean aircraft carrier, that still has deep ties and affection for the United Kingdom and the UK military; now that is just a complete waste of money.
You think we should have maintained our occupation of srilanka post 1947?
I’m much happier with naval facilities in proven Allie’s countries like Oman and Bahrain. Also we already have a giant runway and fleet anchorage on British territory at Diego Garcia.
No one suggested maintaining occupation but cooperation and exercises would not have been a bad thing.
I’ll raise you Hambantota as a strategic block on the Indian Ocean SLOCs AND international court claims against Diego Garcia; China just walked in.
Hi Daniele, India too is going to have a stong presence in the Indian Ocean and maybe further afield. Two carrier’s too, Rafales, and ordering 5 Fleet Tankers, which I think says something of their intention. And they have their own added motivation with their territorial tensions with China in India’s high North. They could now be a serious partner in confronting China along with a strengthening Japan and Korea, even Australia and maybe all this will lessen the need of the UK’s contribution. But I don’t think the UK will won’t want to be left out of what’s going… Read more »
I’ve spoken to a lot of Indian defence folks recently. They highlighted a few key points. 1. India is a super power in the making, not now but in the 2050s. 2. India will not be used by the West to do anything that is not in India’s long term interest. 3. India is not frightened by China as they know in any war of attrition they would ultimately win 4. India is trying hard to increase its defence industrial base to counter PRC 5. India loves Modi and his senior leadership team. They see him as a competent leader… Read more »
“5. India loves Modi and his senior leadership team. They see him as a competent leader who will guide them towards their coming super power status.” Modi is ploughing the Nationalist furrow that well known device of the desperate politician. So he aligns with chairman Xi, kaputin, rocket man and trump. Part of that is a last century imperialism trope against the UK the people who enabled independence for them. “India is making a lucrative side line by being the middle man.” They are dictator enablers who don’t share our values so not our friend. Time for them to take… Read more »
I agree, but “They are dictator enablers who don’t share our values so not our friend.”-We have been doing eactly the same with the Saudis.
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Hi Mr Bell, Good article but are your Indian sources sure about #3? I don’t believe attrition would favour India but I would say the Indian Armed Forces should better trained which may help offset any Chinese numerical advantage to some degree. That said, I still doubt #3 is true. Sure, India may be adding to its critical mass but so too is China and at an alarming rate – they are currently building an entire Royal Navy worth of ships every 4 yrs! I do however, completely agree with #2. Currently Modi is no friend of the US. Should… Read more »
I wonder if they will feel so confident with Chinese army’s in Pakistan and Burma and a Chinese fleet based in srilanka.
Indias greatest weakness is it’s attitude and terrible relations with its neighbours. The US does not need India to blockade china. It can do it from the gulf or Diego Garcia.
India has still got some ruZZia like traits. It treats its so called untouchables appallingly! India uses ruZZia to veto UN resolutions against it!
Yes but just like gulf wars 1+2 the US will want an international coalition so politically, morally and ethically any conflict with China is seen in the context of a greater world wide struggle. The UK will come under considerable pressure to deploy a maximum strength carrier strike group and as many frigates/ destroyers and crucially astute class we can. So probably 3 type 45s, 4 frigates and 2-3 astutes. Shows how the cuts and lack of major warship construction and completion have come home to roost, when our maximum effort is only about 25% the warship numbers (admittedly more… Read more »
Any additional new revenue coming into the Treasury is sure as hell not going on defence! Sunak is clueless and has no time for anything defence beyond paying lip service and getting some nice photo ops in too. Let’s be honest, the MoD is not getting any new money – at least not in any meaningful measure that would shift the needle. I think everyone on this forum knows it. Unfortunately, Labour will be equally as pathetic. Remember, no votes in defence. I echo the sentiment here that war is coming with China soon. The UK is living in denial… Read more »
Agreed. With extremely limited assets, the RN should focus resources closer to home.
Is that not the plan mate? I thought the plan along with the recent French tie up was to ensure we covered the NA/Med with a CSG, thus allowing 1-2 of the 4 Atlantic based US CSG to be deployed elsewhere (Pacific!).
Yes we will still continue with the odd round the world flag waving exercise, but essentially we are going to cover home waters.
Unable to discern whether this is incorporated officially in US operational doctrine, but certainly remember senior USN leadership commentary to this effect. CSG(s) would probably supplemented by USMC F-35Bs (the real rationale behind joint deployments). Would imagine this would also be supported by a few USAF tankers and ISTAR assets. Believe that the predominant opinion w/in US security establishment is that in reality the only circumstance in which the UK would hazard direct conflict w/ ChiComs would be the direct invasion of Australia, New Zealand, BOT possessions, and possibly, Singapore and Brunei. Personal opinion is that by that point, conflict… Read more »
That is my understanding also, to work closely with your ‘gator’ navy, thereby freeing up some of your CSG’s for other tasking. We seem to be working well together in that respect. Wouldn’t disagree with your last paragraph either, despite where we currently are with our CSG, we are not really in a position to sail half way round the world and offer assistance. Working as we are with the USMC and building up our CSG capabilities (mass) will pay dividends across the board, which I am sure the USN appreciates, despite our obvious current shortcomings in other areas (army).… Read more »
Absolutely agree, should have included a reference to deployments w/ Gator Navy in my reply. 😊👍
Really do hope deterrence is sufficient to modify ChiCom behavior in the SCS. Uncertain whether many realize Sino/US conflict would probably be the most dangerous and destructive scenario currently imaginable, short of a no-holds-barred nuclear exchange w/ Russia. 😳
Yes mate, I was just thinking out loud,concerning this articles “British Carrier in the Pacific”
Too far, not our area, and spreads us way too thinly than we are already.
The RN and any other European assistance should help cover the west, and the Indian Ocean.”
If India aspires to the top table (UNSC) they need to pull their weight in that ocean. No more free lunch from NATO.
India will only ever do what’s good for India. If it’s not beneficial for them then they are not interested.
They are happy to take part in exercises, be part of groups but will not deploy troops, enforce sanctions unless it directly benefits India.
Also with that they are unlikely to expect help from anyone if they are in conflict.
They operate differently
Agreed.
UK is not the only European cointry with a growing focus on the Indo Pacific, in response to Chinese maritime expansionism. Next year is due to see deploynents to the region by Italian, French and German task groups.
The comments below reinforce how decline in almost endless. Patrolling the rear-lines is worthy work, but the fact that we have neither the manpower or equipment to be at the tip of the spear is dispiriting. I look forward to the day when we are like Spain. Alot will have been lost, no one will care about us, but we won’t be declining any further. No more dispiriting retreats and losses. (and for those contrarians/clever clogs that will say “I actually care alot about Spain and they are very important”, ok, what do you know about Spain’s policy on China?… Read more »
If global warming keeps up we will be like Spain soon enough 🙂
Brilliant!!! 😂
Heck you could ask what do you know about the UKs policy on China?
Do we even have one and what is the UKs actual plan for dealing with China?
Answers on a postcard folks. Cleverly seems to give a different answer depending upon his location and audience.
UK military involvement in the Indo Pacific is very much welcomed from an Australian perspective.
War is coming, and it’s time for traditional Western Allies to come together once again and defeat the Totalitarian threat as we did in WW2.
The time for second guessing is over.
Gloomy posts, this is dawn of 35b navies. We will support western democracies where we can, given that we are not attempting to be a global superpower
Hi Simon,
I think the community on this forum are very well educated on the state of UK Armed Forces and our current capabilities – warts n all.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not criticizing you in any way just merely pointing out that we are realistic – not gloomy.
HMG’s insatiable appetite to cut defence at every turn hasn’t give us defence watchers much to be optimistic about – especially in an ever increasingly dangerous world (Ok, so that was a bit gloomy! – HA!).
I’ve a lot of respect for Lord Owen. China ripped up the HK agreement, showing the true face of the CCP. Annexing territores where closer ations had far better claims & presence, bullying them, creating environmental madness covering atols & reefs with landfill & concrete to create bases far from PLA territory. Luring third world nations into debt traps, threatening Taiwan which has never been under CCP rule. I hope the international community & allies will stop CCP agression. Taiwan has the USA, Japan & Singapore to come to its aid should the CCP try it on. Hopefully others would… Read more »
Wonderful intelligent conversations on this forum, but one BIG elephant in the lounge. If a major war does break out as envisaged by some, do we realistically think there is anyway we can maintain it as a conventional conflict without an(in my view) inevitable progression to Nuclear Holocaust?
Am I missing something here? No name of the British Carrier? No names of supporting ships? No location other than Pacific(It’s quite big actually!) No real information at all!!
When did Lord Owen say what is mentioned in this article the House of Lords?