Richard Drax, Conservative MP for South Dorset, spoke in Parliament to demand reassurances that the Royal Navy would increase in size and capability.

“I must declare an interest, Mr Speaker: my grandfather and father both served in the Royal Navy, and both would be turning in their graves at the size of the Royal Navy. Although I quite accept the financial difficulty that the Minister has, does he accept from me that the threats from around the world—not least from China, which is talked about too seldom—are growing? 

We are sending one ship, I think, across the waters to the south of China. I ask the Minister, please, for an assurance that the Royal Navy’s size and capability will be increased.”

Mark Lancaster The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, responded:

“My hon. Friend will be aware of the recent deployment of HMS Sutherland, and there will be further such deployments in future to that part of the world.

For the first time in a generation, the Royal Navy is actually growing. It grew in manpower last year and will continue to grow over the next couple of years, and not just in manpower—the size of its surface fleet is also growing. The latest of the offshore patrol vessels arrived in Portsmouth only this weekend.”

Recently, earlier concern over the speculated cancellation of Astute boat number seven was eased by a defence minister.

New defence procurement minister Guto Bebb informed MPs in a written statement:

“The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has received approval in principle from Her Majesty’s Treasury (HMT) to recognise new contingent liabilities associated with the Astute Boat 7 ‘Whole Boat’ Contract.”

We understand that this announcement paves the way for the formal contract to be signed before the end of the financial year.

The scrapping of the seventh Astute Class submarine under construction had been “actively considered” it emerged earlier in the year. A leaked document seen by The Sunday Express stated senior officials read:

“In the long term the delay (or cancellation) will ease the pressure on manning, but we must not be seen to welcome this situation. Any loss of capability will impact on operations.”

Barrow MP John Woodcock said at the time:

“This leaked document is confirmation that scrapping Astute boat seven is being actively considered by the government. There is embarrassingly flawed logic within the decision but it shows just how much pressure there is to find any route out of the cash crisis that is gripping the MoD.”

Woodcock later tweeted:

“To be clear – we are not there yet. The defence secretary will clearly fight for the funds to cover the defence equipment programme, including boat 7. But the fact our submarine programme is under threat shows the terrible funding pressure being imposed by the Treasury.”

This comes not long after the fourth Astute class submarine, Audacious, which is being built by BAE Systems for the Royal Navy, completed her first ever dive.

 

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Lee H

Afternoon all
So that battle begins, the RN recovering from the supposed “Year of the Royal Navy” with lots of press and supportive MP’s asking questions prolong enough so that a minister can answer it without promising anything but giving the view that all is well.
Will it be the RAF next, especially is this Y100 for the service or will the Army steal a march?
Change is coming, who is it going to change most?

andy reeves

our politicians are full of ideas promoted by this article
well written https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/nov/05/does-britain-need-the-military-army-navy-raf

[…] post Conservative MP calls for ‘more ships and more capability’ for Royal Navy appeared first on UK Defence […]

Paul.P
Daniele Mandelli

Ha! I did that in 2004 with the “New Chapter” to the 98 SDSR and look how that went.

I’m happy to do it again but quite sceptical they will listen.

Paul.P

For what its worth I think HM gov is open to constructive ideas. With this Salisbury business the gloves have come off. I think we will see at least a firming of defence spending.

Daniele Mandelli

Hope so Paul. The way things are going with Russia HMG will look even more hypocritical cutting to the rafters.

Paul.P

We need to spend what it takes to secure our way of life. Putin is an arsenist lighting fires in Syria, Crimea, Ukraine plus social media cyber fires plus a continual stream of provocations; airspace incursions, Russian navy sailings, assassinations. How many people are involved dealing with Salisbury? Massive cost and disruption for pretty minimum effort. This is how he works. The Gulf gas is strategic for us and is being secured with Jafar, the minesweeper squadron, maintaining good relations with KSA, Oman, Kuwait, Qatar. Special forces are key. They are largely recruited from the RM. This is why I… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli

Agree re SF and the RM.

I was not aware refuelling probes were being fitted to Merlins.

Callum

Amphibious capability is not something we want to lose. Our military power has historically always been sea based, its only really during the Cold War and the following wars in the Middle East that the army has had a more prominent role. In terms of combating Russia, we need to look at where we can have the most impact. We have a continent of land based allies between us and Russia, so a large conventional army is fairly pointless. Where Russia can really hurt us, and where most of Europe is lacking, is at sea. We need to be able… Read more »

andy reeves

the fleet is growing? my ars* another o.p.v hardly looks the answer to fleet numbers. all it means is, that we hhave another ship to enforce fishing protection. if they fitted the o.p.v with a 76mm cannon, as the thais have done
would look like a serious move.

Paul.P

@Callum. Just to clarify the reason I am not worried about losing the RM is that I don’t believe it will happen.

I’m sure the readers of ukdefensejournal can come up with something that HMG would find worthy of consideration.

Perhaps it might be enlightening to some of us, to consider the tradeoffs that have to be made every day.

I read countless compaints and bashing of MOD and HMG here every day, so lets document your solutions and suggest them. Otherwise maybe you shouldnt compain so much in the future if you are not willing to help out now.

I would be more than happy to provide resources for the effort if there is a decent interest.

Lee H

Morning Andy
Happy to help as long as there were ground rules in place and a structure (themes) that other readers could work within.

andy reeves

i’ve lost count of the times i’ve had my local m.p to forward my latest rants, he call me admira. i say to him , we’ve no problems in that area.they’re everywhere.

Hi Lee and Andy. I can start a collaborative document in quip (www.quip.com), everyone here will be able to see it and contribute to it i hope. I will also start a ground rules doc, so we can decide what they are. We have to be careful to keep it ogranised and productive and dont go too far into ranting and raving. I’ll even make a fantasy fleet part so anyone that wants too can add their ideas there. Can we have some sugguestions for ground rules please? Here are my suggestions…. – we recognise that many mistakes have been… Read more »

Lee H

Fantasy fleet part a great idea.
Themes based on what we expect our military to do:
Defence of the U.K. mainland
NATO member
Expeditionary ability – and why
Things like that
Global Britain
RDEL vs CDEL
International by design
Designed in U.K. built overseas

Barry White

The RN growing?
Why was it announced yesterday that Babcock are to lay-off 500 yes i did say 500 workers from Devonport Naval Base
They must have heard that the Albion and Bulwark are going along with all the Marines and landing craft that they use as well
Which means that there is hardly anything based there now
So to save money the place will go
Was this in the news ? No it wasnt as it was the forgotten part of the UK The South West

Ian

500 skilled jobs on the coast. Again!

On defence, this Govt really has lost the plot.

andy reeves

lost it? they never had it

Paul.P

Not good news for those losing their jobs. Does it automatically follow we are losing the LPDs?

Daniele Mandelli

Nope. I still do not think they will be chopped, the political fall out would be horrendous.

Daniele Mandelli

There need to be military aware MP’s in the house to call out crap statements from ministers that the RN is growing there and then.

What did it grow by? A few hundred ratings I believe by reducing officer ranks.

Mr J Bell

FFS the conservatives are a disaster on defence. The UKs armed forces have been slashed back to pathetic levels. Not that current Labour party would be any better. We need some new more sensible political leaders that actually understand defence and the need now more than ever to have a capable armed forces. Everyone in parliament and the MOD seem to forget the cold hard fact, you fight wars with the personnel and weapons you have to hand. That is why we are in trouble now. Not enough weapons not enough ships, not enough subs, not enough jets, not enough… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli

Spot on. I would be amazed if all that happened though so lets be realistic and hope for at least some improvements here and there and extra money per year to remove the threat of cuts.

Biggest win would be Successor removed from core.

Steve

Its a shame no one in parliament challanges the whole growing navy topic. It seems to me that over the last few years a rather large number of ships have silently gone out of service and a lessor number have come into service.

The only way it seems to be growing is tonnage, but would be the worst case of stat manipulation.

Daniele Mandelli

5 River 2’s in 3 River 1’s and Clyde out.
4 Tides in 6 + Rovers and Leaf Tankers out.
2 QEC Carriers in 3 Invincibles out. ( Big capability increase though )
HMS Ocean out.

Post 2010 SDSR.

4 Batch 3 T22 out.
HMS Dilligence out.
1 RFA Bay LSD cut.
RFA Fort Victoria cut.

Lost count of the number of Hunt and Sandown deleted and sure there are others, that list was just off my head.

Agree it is political speak. When one conducts a FOIA request as I used to do regularly you need to word carefully otherwise they wriggle out. Growing being a typical example.

Steve

there is 1 river 2 in so far. how many mine hunters have gone the last couple of years? add ocean gone and the refit vessel (forget name). Yes some more are coming but not arrived.

Lusty

HMS Roebuck gone, seven Hunt class vessels decommissioned, four Sandowns decommissioned (although one Sandown and one Hunt remain as static training vessels), loss in helicopter numbers, and a decrease in personnel. The loss of RFA vessels such as Largs Bay and Diligence are some of the worst. The Bay class have proven themselves in disaster relief and supporting the minesweeper role. Diligence has been crucial for operations since the Falklands. BMT (the designers of the Tide Class) offer a vessel similar to Diligence – why not modify it and place an order for one? Similarly, I’d advocate ordering more Tide’s.… Read more »

Jassy Spik

Building more ships, but less capable ones cheaper is the political excuse of the government… It completely shows what the government thinks about it’s people and that of the United Kingdom, not being capable of critical thinking.. I say it here, and I say it now as an example of the right critical thinkers of the nation that even one Type 26, is value for money, is worth more than 5 Type 31E, in it’s capability alone, it’s deterrent factor not included.. You can’t weigh tonnage and capability in the same sentence, and call it an increase in capability. It’s… Read more »

Peder

So, leaving aside the Tories and Labour, who do we vote for? And don’t say UKIP, they’re mad as a box of frogs, right wing nut jobs, fast falling apart, stabbing each other in the back whose former millionaire non event of a claim filling MEP Farage and his foreign wife has really lumbered this country with multi billion pound bills to settle and made us a laughing stock.

Daniele Mandelli

I was right….that rant just proved it.

Daniele Mandelli

I just could not stay quiet. Firstly – I was pulled up on another article about apparently being insulting to you. I even apologised, even though I felt I did not have to. But I suspected by the tone of your comments since you appeared on this site what you were. And boy how I was proved right judging by that tirade of yours above. I hope the person who said I was being insulting also notes how many people you just insulted by your comments concerning UKIP members. One rule for one and one for another maybe? Lets examine… Read more »

Keel

Steady on. You can’t go around telling the truth. No Idea where that will lead us. very dangerous ground.

Stephen G.

Peder, “right wing nut job”? You sound like one of those left wing wimps, the type of little wimp who would just keep allowing immigration until we are outnumbered in our own country. It is left wing, politically correct wimps like you who have ruined our country.

I’m hoping we are just starting to see the tide turning and our polititions waking up. We have fantastic capabilities but no strength in depth to survive in a major conflict. Let’s hope we get some positive news of a plan for growth soon. Or maybe I’m mad…

Nick Bowman

Richard Drax is the grandson of Admiral Drax who was sent to Moscow in 1939 to negotiate an alliance with the Russians. He’s an interesting character to read about, should you enjoy that kind of thing. I think our politicians sense that the voters have little appetite for increased defence spending. While that may be true, it is no excuse for an abdication of the duties of leadership. Clearly, the Royal Navy, in particular needs more fighting ships. Our politicians need to explain that inescapable fact to the electorate. Unfortunately, most seem unwilling to grasp the nettle. They are not… Read more »

Lewis

The ‘navy is growing’ line? I thought they gave that lie up with the disaster that was the ‘Year of the Navy’.

Paul.P

The RN may or may not be ‘growing’. But it is certainly being recapitalised with new carriers, Opvs, Type 26 and Type 31 to come. Restructuring may be more accurate. Bases in the UK are being rationalised but Gulf bases like Jaffair and Duqm are growing. And the UK is keen to expand into Kuwait. Would be interested to know what the UK contribution is to these large construction projects and whether any of it is coming out of the defence budget, a significant item in which is facilities.

Sean

It is possible that we may see an increase in defence spending. Although HMG is still running a deficit in its budget each year, it’s now only due to capital/ investment projects. In other words the U.K. has a surplus on its OPEX budget but this is less than current CAPEX spending for the first time since before the Crash of ‘08. With interest rates so low it is arguably a good time to borrow cash to invest in infrastructure and other capital costs. That said. The interest the U.K. pays on its current debt mountain is equivalent to the… Read more »

Julian

I see in the newspapers today some talk that Trump is talking about giving exemptions from the US steel and aluminium tariffs to those allies who are spending at least 2% of GDP on defence. With some statistics claiming that the U.K. isn’t actually meeting its 2% target (I’ve seen 1.96% mentioned) maybe this could be an impetus for the U.K. to at least make sure the target is very clearly met by all measures and hopefully a small safety margin on top to make a statement that we are not only meeting but exceeding the 2% however modestly. We… Read more »

Rob

One of the most sensible posts I have read on this site – if its OK with you I will send this to my local MP?

Daniele Mandelli

Agree. Good post.

Julian

Perfectly OK Rob. Thanks for asking, and for the positive feedback.

Mike Saul

First thing they need to do is to give military a decent remuneration package.

Every trained military person with two years service should be on a minimum of £25k and once they have completed 9 years satisfactory service they should be eligible for an training package which include exemption from tuition fees and a maintenance grant for up to 3 years.

Then we can focus on the equipment, as long as the equipment needs human being to operate and maintain it then the humans come first because without the first the second is useless

Daniele Mandelli

Agree with this.

Wish lists for equipment all well and good but uplift in manpower and better pay and conditions vital to retention.

Geoffrey Roach

For the people thinking of writing to your MP or whoever…please do it but make it constructive. As some of you may have noticed I had a submission paper here a few days ago about our amphibious capability. What you may not know is that it started as a paper to the Defence sub committee and was taking on board as part of their review, included in the full report, along with others, and subsequently published in the Parliamentary Review which is received by all MP’s and is available to both Houses of Parliament. My “amateur” paper was taken seriously… Read more »

Lee H

Hi Geoffrey
I would also suggest utilising your enthusiastic band of commentators, by the looks of things we have a wide service, crown servant and industry base of individuals who are all keen and passionate about the defence of the realm (that includes TH oddly enough).
Once the paper has been agreed this could then not only be submitted to SoSD but mailed to our MP’s asking for their views and support.
SoSD is ambitious, MP’s by their nature are ambitious and like to work in groups, they just need a common cause, with strap lines that they can repeat.
Happy to help
Lee

Daniele Mandelli

This interests me. Ready to help any way I can.