In a recent article by Adam Kula, former nuclear submarine commander, Steve Aiken, criticises the Republic of Ireland’s government, accusing them of “freeloading” on defence matters.
He points out their reliance on the UK and its NATO allies for military support, a stance that he deems unsustainable.
Aiken, who has experience serving in the Royal Navy and was a Member of the Legislative Assembly for South Antrim, highlighted this issue in light of the renewed discussions about Ireland’s vulnerability in the event of an attack.
Aiken stated, “What Ireland really needs to do is have a serious, grown-up conversation about potentially joining something like NATO, because it cannot continue to freeload its security on the rest of Europe, and particularly on the good offices of the United Kingdom and NATO“.
He raises concerns about Ireland’s apparent lack of surveillance capabilities in both maritime and airspace, stating, “So if any aircraft that’s operating – or indeed any ship – comes into its extended economic zone or even it’s territorial seas or airspace, Ireland hasn’t got a clue whether it’s there or not.”
Aiken also commented on the inefficiency of the Irish navy, referencing a report from the Irish Examiner that the Republic only recruited 15 new sailors in 2022, and as a result, two recently acquired warships will “sit in a dock somewhere for a year or two until they can actually find some people to take it to sea”.
On the topic of Ireland’s so-called military neutrality and the “triple lock” system, where UN approval is needed before use of force, Aiken said, “You can’t be militarily neutral, and not neutral on other issues. That just doesn’t make any sense.”
In conclusion, he suggests that Ireland should join NATO, stating, “the sooner Ireland gets into NATO, the better.”
Simple fact is that Ireland has no incentive to join NATO. Let’s face it, for Russia to take out Ireland they firstly have to take out all the countries between Russia and Ireland first – including the UK. Unless, of course, Ireland is worried that the UK would attack them…
Yes free loading on NATO security while stealing the tax money of every EU country outside of Luxembourg has worked well for Ireland, hard to see them changing course. It’s quite remarkable that they actually seem to take pride in this and think their UN/ neutrality position gives them some form of moral authority, especially when they were quite happy to do and say f**k all when the Nazi were terrorising Europe and genociding millions. Fortunately 70,000 or so brave Irish men would not follow their government or counties lead and left the country to actually fight for freedom and… Read more »
Ireland is too insignificant in real defence terms as the current military balance is concerned. That is not a slapdown, just the true state of play. However, if Ireland were to offer Chinese warships ports of safety then its significance would multiply threefold overnight. Also, the UK benefits from being so dependable on the US might too, and knows huge amounts of money are saved by allowing that status quo to continue.
Where do you get the idea that Ireland would have anything to do with the Chinese military?
Mark wrote:
“”Where do you get the idea that Ireland would have anything to do with the Chinese military?””
He didnt, he wrote:
“”However, if Ireland were to offer Chinese warships ports of safety”
Note the use of the conjunction “if” which Maurice used as the start of a supposition
And if tomorrow the planet got hit by a planet killer asteroid then the question would be mute, but that’s not a highly likely event. Neither is the supposition he put forward.
Now you are just been silly.
I’m not but suggesting they would but it would have to be something as seismic as allowing the Chinese safe ports to lift their military status.
If Ireland did that I can imagine even the most cringeworthy of American plastics being rather upset and commercial interactions with their western neighbours becoming somewhat restricted. It would be a very, very bad strategic move on Ireland’s part.
Anyone attempting to invade Eire would have to get past the UK & USA. Russian & Chinese infiltration & take-over by stealth would be more likely, but we’ve been very weak on that ourselves.
Relatively wealthy place, evidently. Those Pilatus could be made use of in Ukraine.
For what, killing Ukrainian pilots? The have no defensive measures, no protection and are rigged for .50 cal pods and currently unguided 70mm rockets, what exactly could they do?
Dunno, maybe straffing tree lines? But ask the Ukrainians, Mark. They seem pretty could at making use of equipment – in extremis. Many more pilots could likely cope with a prop plane capable of using semi-austere strips, and they appear to offer many of the advantages of ‘copters without the additional learning curve.
Whilst perennially awaiting the more exquisite F16, needless.
I foresee same old arguments in this one.
Neutrality or NATO is a matter for them.
I’d be happy if Ireland just improved its western radar and undersea surveillance coverage, which I understand the UK can access.
Any real increases in wider force posture will take many decades, if ever, as Mark always explains.
The oft reported RAF access to Irish airspace is to our benefit too, should it be necessary.
Given such capabilities effectively don’t exist yet, not sure why you think the U.K. has access to any info, if/when anything changes I’m not sure how much would be transferred?
Hi Mark. I was referring to the joint UK Ireland subsea initiative I think was reported here a while back? Or was it Ireland NATO.
Ireland and NATO, we have also started as Observer in the PESCO project for cable protection as well.
Right, thanks. That was what was in my mind. Basically my point in my initial post was I’m not bothered personally if Ireland is in NATO or not, you have you’re reasons, but some co-operation in those areas which impact us both would be good.
I’d rather our ex officers pressure our own government on our military, not criticise others.
Your not you’re, damned phone.
Interestingly enough, if he wanted a “grown up” conversation, there was nothing to stop him attending the recent series of sessions the government held and saying his piece directly and openly to the Minister and others, there were reps from many different nations and NATO there. Now granted each session had plenty of looney left idiots of course but he still could have been there.
The loons were an absolute joy to listen to. Talk about being absolutely insular in their view of the world and not having a proper view on western security and how it works.
These left groups benefit from this collective security whether they like it or not.
Just boggles the mind.
Some are insular, some haven’t evolved their views since their student days (looking at you Mickey D), and some are very clearly shrills for Moscow and Beijing (step forward Clare and Mick).
Idiots all who just wanted to rant.
Those last two you mentioned, I just shake my head all the time. They are special types.
Good Morning Daniele. I hope you are well. As you say, this topic has been widely discussed over the years so I will stay out of it this time!
Kind Regards
Geoff
Morning geoff.
We are, mate, thank you. As Wimbedon is on, it finally rained, though now it is getting silly and needs to dry out for a bit!
To be honest, regardless of the truth of the matter, I hardly think being publicly chastised by a former member of the British military and a Northern Irish, presumably Unionist, political figure will help resolve the matter. That would probably have to come from someone with whom they have more affinity. Perhaps Joe ‘Irish’ Biden would have some sway if he really cares or maybe someone from the EU? I guess the Baltic states could remind them that the eastern borders of the single market run along their frontiers with Russia. ROI has a stated aim of protecting the EUSM,… Read more »
The island of Ireland has “unresolved issues” about practically everything, so assertions of this sort should be taken with several sackloads of salt. For the unwary traveller, the map warns, “here be dragons.”
How would Ireland fund any and maintain a sizable defence force ?. They would be better off joining NATO and letting th US have bases on their soil.
Even if you take the GNI figures and use the 2% suggested rate you are talking about somewhere around €5 billion a year budget. The potential funding isn’t the issue, the political and public will to do so is.
Ask the Provos. For two decades a few hundred determined republicans fought the British Army to a standstill, blew up Margaret Thatcher and Norman Tebbit, mortared 10 Downing Street, bombed Canary Wharf and managed to kill roughly 1500 civilians. And all the time their Army Council ,leaders were being betrayed by dozens of touts.
Sinn Fein may take power in Eire at the next election. Doubtless Gerry Adams knows a few nautical Irishmen of the sort who blew up Nelsons Pillar in O’Connell Street, Dublin in March 1966 and who may like to man/woman their new corvettes
You could ask the same question any non state militia force, like the Taliban, they are funded by supporters and countries that are thinking “My enemies enemy is my friend’. Externally funded and equipped.
Fought the British to a standstill ha ha don’t make me laugh every time they went head to head they lost the British army could have wiped them out in less than a weekend if they were give the green light could u imagine any other country on earth being so soft on terrorist like the British were on the IRA let’s say it was the USA and they had names and addresses of every terrorist member do u think they would just leave them alone only arresting them when they caught them in the act No they wouldn’t they… Read more »
Well said
Sorry mate just about duplicated your post replying to that nob!
That I believe is true. The Det, The Group, E4A, they all knew who they were and where they lived.
Though if we had done that I’m unsure what the consequences would have been regards reprisals and inflaming things?
Those tactics seem more suited to Putin’s thugs?
They only did this as they were playing dirty and bombing innocent people including many children. I lived in Manchester and London and narrowly missed both bombs. The IRA were pure evil full stop and not freedom fighters but murderers. If the British had taken off the gloves the IRA were have been finished in days. Don’t forget when John Major and then Tony Blair instigated the peace process the IRA were totally destroyed and were brought to their knees.
Crazy stuff and great forbearance by the British public. Best we get along now.
You are having a laugh aren’t you FFS! Fought us to a standstill it was the IRA who realised they couldn’t win by the bomb and sought talks with the gov of the day🙄 if at any time we would have been allowed to take the gloves off it would not have taken long to round up all the players with their mugs plastered over every ops room in NI. Still dream on about these ‘freedom fighters’ who blew up any body that happened to be in the way regardless of religion.
Well said Jacko. I hate these revisionist versions of hisory with these IRA terrorist scum as heroes. Also Bloody Sunday was an establishment stitch up of our troops by people like Blair. All the soldiers said they were fired upon by multiple terrorists.
Yes that would be soldier F who with his twenty rounds shot every man and his dog that day! One report stated someone had been shot fifteen times if I recall! Fifteen rounds of 7.62 and you wouldn’t have a clue who you were looking at🙄!
Loughgall, Northern Ireland The H&K G3, in the right hands, makes short work of terrorists, when they’re allowed to of course and sadly in the case of the IRA, not often enough. “The hidden SAS ambush party bided their time and watched as the JCB crashed through the wire fence around the Police Station. They watched as the 3 hooded men jumped from the cab, one of them lighting the fuse on the oil drum. As the 3 IRA men ran from the JCB, 5 armed men leapt out of the Toyota van and started firing at the station. Now… Read more »
That is the issue, as part of Nato, you have to spend % of your total income. on defence. they can join the Euro Defence force and get a share of the Push bikes.
All true. For some reason few people ever talk straight to the Irish. It’s a sort of international petting zoo not a country.
Whereas your nation is a cesspool not a country LOL
And then, why so many Irish have come to it for a life (or abortion).
*That’s* the gist of your argument?! FFS UK education really is a pathetic abomination…
Suppose joint ground based UK / Irish airspace monitoring would be politically unacceptable.
Short answer, yes. Long answer why are the suggestions always some sort of joint system? If/when Dublin is willing to pay for anything and the people to run whatever then it can do so, why would the U.K. want to be involved, and if the U.K. needs extra coverage why not make use of NI?
It was discussed previously on here that Ireland is a gateway for Russian shenanigans coming in from Atlantic unobserved.
Still doesn’t answer the question though?
Hi Mark, I guess the reason why it needs to be a joint system, is that it basically boils down to the following. If you do pay for a long range radar. What are you going to do with the information it provides. For example, if a Tu142 is flying around infringing on your EEZ, without its IFF on and not responding to radio calls. What happens next? Yes, you can divert civilian traffic from its flight path. But it still represents a threat not only to air traffic. But also militarily. Just how close to Ireland can it get?… Read more »
Politically right now the indications are that detection for controlling civilian aircraft around them. The politicians don’t consider their operations to be a military threat.
Ireland will not join NATO as that would entail them spending 2% of GDP. At the moment they are just happy for everyone else to spend money….
The fact is that the lack of credible Irish air defence or monitoring leaves the UK open to an attack from the NW. So the UK has to close this gap and Ireland gets free air defence.
Ireland is not a poor country and could afford a decent air search radar and some F16s. Old Irish Biden could help out his fellow Irishmen…
Rob N
F16s aren’t happening, Primary Radar procurement is meant to start but DOD is being DOD and DPER is blocking.
That’s the question though in a hypothetical invasion would we actually defend ROI? There is no obligation to do so. We are protecting our own airspace by overflying Ireland but we could not get involved unless asked to do so by the Irish themselves. Of course due to protecting NI this is a difficult question!
I do not think the threat is about invasion it is more about Russian bombers and strike aircraft hooking round the UK and coming in from the West in Irelands blind spit. The same for that matter applies to naval assets. No we are under no obligation to defend ROI. However we would end up defending it by default whilst trying to defend the UK. This is what the ROI rely on so tgey do not have to pay for their own defence. I think is is ethical questionable to rely on another county for your defence while making little… Read more »
One of the issues is that Ireland has gone from poor to not poor within a generation and a half, and the culture within the departments hasn’t changed. Another issue of course is that the U.K. more than once has been happy to frustrate any development.
An interesting point…
I think the UK should encourage them to move towards building a credible defence force. It is not as if we are going to fight them. Certainly a small but modern airforce is not a step too far…..
Can anyone tell me why they do not wish to have a modern airforce? Or perhaps they just cannot be bothered. If they were not strategically located on our Western flank I would say just let them get on with not defending their people.
I think you massively overrate the influence the U.K. has on Ireland.
And the reason why we don’t is because the political and public have no interest in funding the Defence Forces to do so.
To point out the changed circumstances, throughout the Troubles the Irish defence budget was above 1% (still without question low compared to everyone else at the time but thats not the point), but even that was barely 500 million pounds back then. The idea up until the mid 90’s of the budget being able to sustain any serious capability was just laughable. Now the situation is of course changed, even conservatively if we went back to 1% that would be around €2.5 billion, but there’s plenty of historic resistance, and plenty of other demands on public spending (no different from… Read more »
Hum… I think that what we are all saying is that nothing will change and the UK will still be in the same position.
Probably, though in reality even if things did change in investment, joining NATO is still off the table so the UK would arguably be in the same position even then.
Jesus, not this Ireland thing again 🤦
It is interesting to see UKDJ lifting a story from a former Unionist politician from a Unionist paper just to post this, I mean it doesn’t really add anything to the matter.
Someone will be mentioning ‘leaving the lights on’ before long Robert, mark my words, always the same culprits…
Most issues regarding Ireland are complex due the Historic Anglo Irish relationship which has been The Elephant in the backyard for way too long. IMHO Rob Young nailed it on the head “Ireland has no incentive to join NATO”. But there are other EU countries that are Neutral and not members of NATO, but most of those do provide for an adequate level of defence spending and cooperate with NATO for mutual benefit. Ireland does non of these ! Ireland derives a lot of income from US multinationals many of whom are in the IT field and base themselves there… Read more »
Well first off, maybe work on your knowledge of the EU, Switzerland isn’t a member, and Treaty changes/new Treaties are massive projects that right now none of the 27 want to touch, and there is no mechanism for forcing out a member state (hence the current issues with Hungary for example) and no chance of them being created.
Second nobody in Dublin is going to really care if the U.K. sends over Wallace, (or anyone else given the new claims he’s standing down as minister in the coming months).
Hang Mark, are you telling me we could have stayed in the EU, in the single market and just did our own thing anyway, telling everyone to sod off and they couldn’t kick us out??🤣🤣 Joking aside, it’s interesting re Hungry, their disgraceful actions and the EU’s inability to drag them into line is all rather embarrassing for the Union. I expect majority voting in virtually all areas to be accelerated because of this, if (probably when) that happens, Ireland can forget neutrality, they will effectively be part of a nuclear weapons armed federation, with no more effect on their… Read more »
The most that could happen is suspending voting rights, this hasn’t happened to Hungary as Poland was blocking it. As for changes to Foreign Policy voting… Yeah getting a unified position out of 27 nations is something that isn’t likely.
Hungary really is a problem, their government is behaving in an atrocious manner, not just for the EU, but for the whole pro Ukrainian coalition of countries.
They are mouthpieces for an absolutely vile regime and it will taint the Hungarian reputation in the international community for a long while after this ends…
Yep, Wallace is gone:
https://news.sky.com/story/defence-minister-ben-wallace-to-stand-down-at-next-election-12921562
Really it’s up to Ireland to decide what size there defence force is and what it’s capable of.
Really it’s not at any risk of invasion.
The U.K. was probably in favour of a small Irish defence force with limited capability and no nato membership until 2000s.
It’s a tough call but Ireland’s call to make.
Perhaps allowing some Russian bombers to fly over Irish cities might change there minds if that’s in the UKs interest.
You do realise that Russian bombers never come into even the West Coasts 12 mile area let alone over the actual country and aren’t likely.
A story I read a very long while ago involving an SAS patrol dropped by a Wessex right on the boarder with the republic, that was intercepting a suspected active IRA cell in the area crossing the border. Apparently they got themselves a trifle lost and hearing ( eventually seeing Scorpion light tanks in the morning gloom) moving around in the dark, with muffed voices they started to come to the opinion the Irish Army was in fact making a territorial incursion into Northern Irish sovereign territory ! Much excited radio chatter later, it became apparent that the patrol weren’t… Read more »
The SAS had a few incidents like that, for example there’s another story about a patrol getting themselves arrested by Gardaí.
I think that one was a bit of an embarrassing incident Mark, probably did little for diplomatic relations!
Lots of unofficial stories of terrorists being bagged and bundled over the boarder, one guy
(allegedly) being lifted off the streets of Dublin as he came out of the pub, the team plus guest being extracted by helicopter in a remote location, if rumours are to be believed…
Yes free loaders, whingers and MOPE.
And NI builders in particular play the same trick down in the Republic while also undercutting Irish firms by avoiding mandatory taxes…
Not disputing the facts here but surely it was relevant to point out that this guy is an actual unionist MLA in the NI Assembly and also the former UUP leader?
For airspace maybe find some Hawk 200s on the market ,and for the ocean waves a Type 23 no longer needed by the RN that bit might be easy 🙄
Sounds good what you say, but the infrastructure is not there to support any of that. The Gov has to invest in that first.
Even if the infrastructure was there, Hawks are no use for taskings off the West Coast, and the 23’s are worn out. Even if we were in the market right now, buying them would be nuts.
I was saying i support combat aircraft and ships for ROI, just need the infrastructure.
Yes, Hawks and 23s are too old to invest in.
T-31(s) purchased on a layaway/installment plan? Same plan for acquisition of a few Swedish fighters? 🤔😳😉
Sure, all sounds good but:
Secure funding, need facility upgrades , crew/pilot/tech training and procure the equipment.
Prerequisite also … primary radar and a naval station in Galway.
Galway would need a completely new harbour for any such facility, the docks are too small really, though how much additional basing we need is another question.
I believe that was identified in the Galway port upgrade project that is still waiting for funding.
If the Greens have their way with their rail projects there isn’t going to be any capital funding for anything else at all.
I wonder what the ex sub commander thought last month when it was the AC providing fire fighting support to NI fire service? Why doesn’t NI have that capability themselves or do they freeload of the Republic?
Now now don’t be silly you know as well as I do IF support by either country is needed it works both ways as any neighbour would.
Sure, just asking whether or not he noticed? I mean tbh, its a Unionist politician talking to THE Unionist paper on the week of the 12. He was going to find something to have a go at the Republic no matter what.
This bloke has obviously touched a nerve but he didn’t even cause a splash up here let alone a ripple! Now you also have an inkling what it’s like to have foreign politicians poking their oar in up here where it’s not wanted!
Not really, pretty much nobody has noticed anywhere other than here. And if “up here” means NI, sad to say but the GFA means that happens, even if it is more of a headache than its worth.
So, exactly the same as happened in WW2.
Not even close but sure whatever…
Meh. Ireland joining NATO is about as useful as Sweden joining. It’s nice, sure. But Russia physically can’t invade, China militarily won’t, and when the Covenant start glassing the planet it’s too late.
If the United Kingdom really cares about Ireland’s flank, give/lease them some radar and some Eurofighters. Boom goes the dynamite.
Personally, I can’t blame the Irish, as others have mentioned they are at the extreme west of Europe and thus have very little to fear of any invasion and they do send their troops for UN peace keeping treaties. The way as I see things, their neutrality will remain in place until the EU forms a EU military and so the powers that be will still be able to claim they are remaining neutral , but Irish men and women will be free to join if need be.
Well tens of thousands of Irish young men joined the allies in WW2 and fought with distinction, something that is generally forgotten, especially by the Republic.
They joined the struggle so Ireland wouldn’t have to and took the fight to Nazi Germany.
So politics aside , if things continue to slide, thousands of young Irish people will answer the call of duty again, should the liberty bell ring, I certainly wouldn’t doubt it.
Our family is in the main Northern Irish and Unionist but we should remember that 70 000 Irish men from the ROI volunteered to fight with the British in WW2 at a time when British and Irish relations were still raw from the troubles of the early 1900’s and Irish Independence. Pro rata, this is equivalent to 800 000 volunteers from the UK , so is a significant contribution especially given the background. Ireland is an island of very many shades of grey. One of my cousins, a Presbytarian,is an Irish Nationalist. Other cousins from my Aunts marriage to my… Read more »
Plenty of Irish in both the UK & US militaries amongst others. If ever they needed to build defenses fast I’m sure it could be done. We have their back anyway by long association & proximity. It is in our interests to monitor their airspace for our own security.
You only have to read reports in Ireland about fears the UK is to nuke them to see how far they are away from our way of looking at things, or the truth. Yes the report maybe at the extreme end of Irish thinking, but they see NATO as the UK. No difference in the eyes of many Irish eyes, especially Sinn Fein. Plus as the article indicates they can charge ridiculously low business tax and get away with spending pityful amounts on defence. Even the EU has critized them on that, effectively charging zero corporation tax. I bet Biden… Read more »
What are you on about? What “reports of the UK nuking Ireland” (unless you are talking about the Greens issues with nuclear power stations, but the Greens are just Greens), nor is it the UK alone that causes issues around NATO (thats mainly due to the Left parties blaming NATO for the last 20 years of misadventures in the Middle East). We aren’t the lowest with Corporation Tax rates (and given the activities of some of the UK’s Tax Havens I’m not sure the UK can throw stones here) and are signed up to the international agreed rates (something that… Read more »
Sounds to me you found some ‘left’ articles that are pie in the sky dreams in your news feeds. The majority of Irish people do not think that way.
I think here there are a couple of things, even if Ireland didn’t want to join NATO, and even if they don’t have major military aspirations in the future I think some basic things NEED to happen, simply to policing reasons if nothing else: – 24 (of which at least 12 actually deployable) F-16’s or similar/cheaper, fighter jets for national air policing – Utilisation of more remotely operated drones for naval surveillance – Investment in proper land based military grade radar. That would at least improve their surveillance, and police their own sky’s and coastline better. Naturally deferring to the… Read more »
1) Not happening.
2) Unlikely to happen
3) Meant to be happening.
Sadly Mark….I suspect you’ll be right on this for many…many years lol
Neutrality is out of fashion right now and for Ireland to continue regardless is simply grandstanding.
Ireland isn’t the only neutral nation in Europe let alone the rest of the world so what exactly is your point?
I live in Ireland and this is a topic I have often raised with friends over a few drinks. The reality is that the current situation suits Ireland just fine, it’s the best of all worlds for them. However the government has recently accepted that it needs to spend more on defence in order to avoid constant criticism from fellow EU members, the USA and (least importantly politically) the UK. The Irish defence budget will thus increase from €1.1 billion in 2022 to €1.5 billion by 2028 in constant prices. I.e. to about 0.5% of GDP. The extra money will fund projects such as… Read more »
So just Say. Ireland is invaded and overun because Dads Army are in the Sunday mass.
who would run to there assistance. A Strongly Word letter to Brussels is there best bet, as UK MOD still has deep memories of the previous. and actually, Not My Country defend yourself