Contracts have been awarded to four consortia, which the Ministry of Defence insist “include significant UK involvement”, to develop their bids to build three new Fleet Solid Support ships for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.
The Ministry of Defence said in a news release:
“The award of the Competitive Procurement Phase (CPP) design contracts, each initially worth around £5 million, means the Fleet Solid Support competition has successfully moved to the next stage. The contracts, negotiated with industry by Defence Equipment and Support, the procurement organisation for the Ministry of Defence, deliver on the UK Government’s promise to progress the design and build of the FSS ships to support the Royal Navy’s Carrier Task Groups. The final manufacture contract will be awarded to a UK company acting either solely or as part of a consortium.”
Welcoming the news with industry leaders at a CPP kick-off event, Defence Secretary and Shipbuilding Tsar Ben Wallace said:
“I am proud to see UK companies stepping up to the challenge of the Fleet Solid Support competition as we begin the next chapter of this British shipbuilding success story. I wish all the competitors well as we work towards realising a programme which will deliver ships essential for the UK’s security as well as vital jobs and skills.”
The contracts will enable bidders to develop their design proposals and the next stage will seek details of how they would fulfil the wider delivery needs of the programme. Assessment of these proposals will lead to the selection of a preferred bidder and award of the manufacture contract.
The Ministry of Defence also said in the aforementioned news release:
“The FSS competition remains on track to deliver the ships the Royal Fleet Auxiliary need to support the Royal Navy, whilst maximising the social value contribution shipbuilding can make in the UK, including encouraging investment in domestic shipyards, whilst balancing the need to deliver value for money. The commitment to this vital capability was outlined in the Defence Command Paper published earlier this year and is supported by the £24 billion uplift to the defence budget over the next four years. The FSS ships will increase the capability and development of the Carrier Strike Group to operate globally by replenishing its stores and ammunition.”
The four consortia awarded contracts are (in alphabetical order):
- Larsen & Toubro, which includes UK company Leidos Innovations.
- Serco /Damen, which includes UK company Serco.
- Team Resolute, which includes UK companies Harland & Wolff and BMT.
- Team UK, which includes UK companies Babcock and BAE Systems.
Will they be built in the UK?
The vessels will be constructed by “British-led teams”, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has announced.
While international companies will be invited to work in collaboration with UK firms, “the successful manufacturing team must be led by a British company”.
“This will have a huge impact on the local economies across the UK where shipbuilding is a prominent feature. Hundreds of highly skilled jobs will be created as a direct result of today’s announcement, with many more in small and medium sized enterprises throughout the supply chain for the new builds to follow over the next few years.”
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said:
“Shipbuilding has historically been a British success story, and I am determined to revitalise this amazing industry as part of this Government’s commitment to build back better. The Fleet Solid Support warships competition will be the genesis of a great UK shipbuilding industry, and allow us to develop the skills and expertise for the shipyards of tomorrow.”
According to a statement from the Ministry of Defence:
“The Fleet Solid Support ship competition will build on the success of the Type 31 programme, which will be built primarily in Scotland and is expected to support 1250 highly skilled jobs and 150 apprenticeships across the country. The Fleet Solid Support warships competition will be designed to challenge the shipbuilding industry. The goal will be to build ships fit for the future, while boosting homegrown skills and leading to a highly competitive shipbuilding industry. The warships will incorporate next-generation technology with a purpose-built design and will eventually support HMS Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales as part of the Carrier Strike Group, which will undertake its first operational deployment next year.“
The build competition was initially offered internationally, meeting strong criticism from all sides of the political spectrum and even the UK Defence Journal. The tendering process for the ships was even suspended last year before beign restarted, with some suggesting the process was being restructured to better favour British bids.
So these ships are still, what, 5 years away? Meanwhile the RFA has ONE seaworthy solid support ship……
The rumour mill is that the grown ups did realise that this was a bit of a flaw so one of the two mothballed ships is at a higher state of readiness. It seems to have sunk in that it would be a bit embarrassing not to be able to use two advanced carriers for want of a stores ship. I know someone will pop up and say USN / USMC can help out but the key word here is Sovereign – particularly given the Biden approach. The only direct evidence for this is the withdrawal from sale of both… Read more »
The two mothballed ones must be nearly 50 years old, so doubtful what high readiness means in that context. Makes the premature scrapping of Fort George look even more stupid….
Yes, I believe you are correct, they are both around 45 yo. Fort Vic was in dockyard hands for a considerable time to complete all the improvements required to bring her upto modern standards. As she also carries fuel, certain parts of her had to be double hulled to comply with current Marpol legislation. This all took money and time, so as you say, bringing one or both of the mothballed vessels upto standard is somewhat relative, certainly more then a few months work!
That is very certainly true.
But they are not actually needed for fuel as there are plenty of modern tankers for that role?
So they **could potentially** have a more limited upgrade to make them usable only for solid stores/munitions which is the real gap?
Otherwise there would be zero point in keeping them on the books and periodically running up the engines etc at all….
Hi mate, absolutely, cant for the life of me understand why they thought Ft Vic to supply fuel, as she will slways be with the CSG, along with a tanker!!!!
Still think any potential upgrade to get them to sea involvrs lots of money and time, ‘high readiness state’ yes so long nobody minds several months work first!
It think it is a doctrine thing. In a hot environment ships are thought to be more vulnerable during RAS etc as they are un-manoeuvrable and there is potential for AVGAS spills etc. And they cannot be in a fully hot weapons state. BTW this is, I think, one of the reasons for Ceptor as it can be launched during refuelling as it does not fire until clear of the ship due to the cold launch. That is a guess before anyone tries to…… So the idea is that they hook up once and get everything pushed across pronto. Thus… Read more »
Isnt it handy having a second tanker along
just incase, even if she has limited supplys.
But we have the Waves and Tides to cover that. Would be a lot easier to resurrect Wave #2 than to get Fort #2 up to MARSOL standards.
Is the plan to bring the dutch and germans on any future expeditions with the Karel Dorman?
It’s so sad Fort George was scrapped.. the forts are lovely ships.
And I prefer the original FSS replacements that were similar looking to the forts.
The scraping of Fort George seem totally bonkers now
It was at the time along with selling of Largs Bay whilst keeping older ships which were very soon after 2010 then removed from service as well. Of course Dave, George and Nick knew what they were doing.
Laughing all the way to the bank while punishing the poor & making the UK less defensible.
Looks like we will be limiting carrier ops around the globe them..l
Might be daft but why not build three L&C class here? Helluva lot of space for dry goods and can act as secondary oilers.
And the list goes on-Hawks,Frigates,Minesweepers,Typhoons,Army numbers,Hercules. We have some world class men and women and equipment but………!!! When we got down to 19 frigates/destroyers I thought there is no way the RN can function with less than this but now 17 and counting!
And yet we are still maintaining our global commitments, and can support a carrier strike group with 4 escorts. Not to shabby I would say.
Tosh. Remind me which T45 has been laid up recently…
Tosh? remind me again, apart from the US Navy, how many other nations are doing this?? Vessels brake down from time to time, belive it or not, but other Navy’s also run into reliability problems and brake downs, and have to come off task to get fixed. And other Navy’s also don’t have fleets to escorts sat around in port ready to go incase another breaks down.
Don’t go into a hizzy fit with me. I calked you out on numbers so please put a brake on the deflection and instead concentrate on the break down of that platform.
Hugs.
Called
yes Buttercup i think you need a hug
So Angry
Oh, thanks Darling.
You don’t have a sense of reality mate. And what’s involved in keeping warship availability high.
The Marine Nationale has been doing that for a number of years with the CdG carrier group.
The CdG is less reliable than any single T45. French escorts have little to escort.
Haha, still with excuses for the embarrasing Type 45 it seems.
Yeah, cheers for that contribution.
she blew an engine, total failure not something that happens often, and needed dockside assistance.
It’s not embarrassing at all. Warships break down from time to time. It happens to all nations who operate complex warships. Why do people make out it only happens to us. 🤦
Vessel availability planning is very difficult. And this is not the only deployment the T45’s have been involved in. They have been extremely busy over the last few years. And enjoyed very good reliability overall. the RN have done a very good job to have 4 escorts available for CSG21 without affecting other standing commitments. You don’t see 4 escorts following the French CDG around. And they only have 4 Destroyers in total. We are not the US Navy, and we are not trying to be. Vessels brake down, it’s just a fact of life. You deal with it, you… Read more »
Damn RN should have more but till the cash issues from terror wars rebates and uplift in cash kicks in they are doing great with limited cash
Also we can’t sent vessels that have had PIP as none of them have finished PIP yet?
Warships need upgrades, refits, and maintenance periods, that’s how we keep them operational. PIP will further improve the availability of T45. We have OPV’s forward deployed as are some of our T23’s, and agile crewing. Global operations isn’t simply about the number of hulls available. It’s how you crew them, and maintain and support them when far from home. And if T32 happens, the escort fleet will grow to 24. T26 will also be a step change in capability. And T31 will also be forward deployed. Using OPV’s for policing and anti piracy, will help free up the escorts for… Read more »
Global Britain doesn’t mean we are suddenly going to spend lot’s more on defence and expand the RN. We have two fantastic aircraft carriers with a growing fleet of F35’s. T26 is coming along with T31 and hopefully T32. Astute class is deadly, and world class, and the new Dreadnought class is a long term commitment to our nuclear deterrent. We have always been a Global Britain. Not much has really changed.
Would be difficult not to put 2 destroyers that didn’t have the PIP update, since HMS Dauntless, the first to get PIP, only finished the installation during CSG21’s deployment.
Also the RN has more than 1 available destroyer. Dragon has been available this whole time, it’s crew has just been on their well earned time off. Had the situation been critical they could have been recalled.
A typical US Carrier Strike Group only has 4 escorts (3 AB’s and 1 Tico), so… someone should tell the USN, but fortunately with 2 Dukes, 1 Daring, and Arleigh Burke and a 7 provinces, CSG21 has more than that, so that’s okay.
Yes suffered overheating and shutdowns, which is now managed, but a full failure is fairly rare. just everyone sees the engine problem
And I think while in Asia both t23s underwent repairs (sorry ‘ maintenance ‘ ) while in port in Guam and Japan respectively . Not good for CSG and not good for ‘buy British ‘. …..ohhh just had a thought. Paint them british racing green and call them HMS Triumph, Jaguar, MG, Rover,………and TVR
At least HM gov can carry out repair sorry maintenance without setting the vessels on fire 🔥 they should send the wee yanks and their wee Ruskies pals over to learn how to do it right. you can’t get better than a quick fit fitter we’re the boys to trust 👍🏻 As they say in the navy 😂
😂 nobody does it better ……👍🏻
🏴🇬🇧
There is that indeed ..cheers
Is that the ships that have been used for 30 plus years yet are still working pretty damn well. Love to see some foreign ships have their useage snd do as well!
Exhibit A of what happens when you don’t conduct routine maintenance after a round the world trip:
All for maintenance Dern. Understand there may have been breakdowns of kit which is slightly different.
Ensuring designs have reliability as well as capability built into design philosophy is where there is scope for improvement in results.
Things break;
They fix them;
so –
Where is the new news in that?
If you go backwards in time the usability of the older classes like Counties was awful. You could count on you fingers the days the whole get up was fully operational there was always something major broken.
I am very proud of the CsG doing what it is doing but, IMHO, we have to stop pretending that everything is ok.
When you have global ambitions and intend operating far far away defending something like a QE class then lack of redundancy, coupled with reliability issues coupled with limited functional capability per vessel type becomes an issue.
Will be interesting to see the root cause analysis for the T45 engine issue. I hope it was something like wear and tear rather than a bad / substandard component batch or a latent design issue.
I suspect we will never know what caused the “engine failure” – whatever that means in real money!
That would be a tiny bit too much granular detail to make public IMHO.
Unless, of course, there is a fix and someone has to be hung out to dry? Or maybe a sacrifice to the Gods of Ego or Public Opinion?
Not shabby atall, only a handful of nations can achieve that. But when South Korea has a Millitary far bigger and army more powerfull by allot and navy with more and some better escorts we have to wonder WTF is going on…yes yes they don’t have nuclear subs or large carriers but still.
Those nuclear attack subs make all the difference. To them there’s only other submarines and targets.
Or a nuclear deterrent ect. We also don’t have North Korea on our door step. South Korea also doesn’t deploy very far from it’s home waters. Same with it’s Air Force and Army. And that makes a huge difference.
Yeah, SK are pretty much a local power.
But they have 500+ fighter aircraft and we only have 140 odd, it’s kind of shocking. And they have thousands of tanks many are half decent and we can barely manage 150!!.
look I know they have a crazy neighbour , but my point is they can have these numbers in an economy much smaller than UK. And an Army 500,000+ and 2 million reserves.
And how many of those 500 fast jets are available at any one time? especially old F4’s and F5’s. same with the tank numbers? What real world experience have all those crews got? Numbers are easy to look impressive. Reality is often very different. And what are the Korean people going without to pay for this large military?
And also being a local power means they don’t spend billions on bases repairs refuelling parts training other powers, policing , Fleet aux and a million other things needed to project power
‘THE’ UK!
Only having one Fort class ship is a major week point though. Ideally we really needed the 2 extra type 45 which were not ordered. Most of the other points we have been able to work around
2 more T45’s would have been very nice. But we do extremely well with what we have got. And with T26, T32 around the corner, and hopefully T32. The future is bright.
T31
And only 8 of our new Frigates will actually be more powerful than what they are replacing…someth8ngs wrong with that, next generation should always be better.
OK think about how fast modern systems are designed and improved. They fitted systems to the FORD class that were state of art at the time. but didn’t work so being removed, we cannot afford to spec ships with un-proven tech, we dont have that sort of money to waste, and so we develop platforms as we go, Type 45 getting upgraded thru its life span. its how the UK works its programs.
In many ways the Type 31’s are “better” than the Type 23’s.
And even on the “powerful” front… 24 CAMM, 8 ISSGW, 2x40mm, 1x57mm may even be better than a Type 23 (depending on ISSGW vs Harpoon).
I thought it was 12 CAMM Dern.
Hi Reaper,
12 CAMM is the number extrapolated from the Babcock Renders, RN tender is for “up to 24.”
Everyone is assuming 12 as a worst case scenario.
on the tired or obsolete kit, how old is your family car and how many miles on it.
stuff wears out.
I would guess 5 years is on the optimistic side. Probably another year or so of dithering around selection and then another year or two agreeing a contract, then the build starts, no doubt slowly as funds won’t be released.
It would be interesting to know how long from the above stage to delivery, the tides took.
It is a political imperative for the QEC to fly the flag so anything needed to make it real will happen.
I’d be surprised if some rather pointed questions are not being asked about PIP on T45 given what happened on CSG21.
It’s polictically required to have the QEC on sight near major cities, so it can restock whilst there. I can’t see QEC being used in combat operations anytime soon.
It has already gained its spurs, when both the UKs and USMC F35s conducted air strikes on Isis targets in Iraq. Though this was still in range of main base support via Cypress and Souda Bay. Judging by the ineptitude of the current US Administration, they will probably let things quiet down, before embarking on anything else. However, judging by what’s happening in Africa, especially down the East coast, I suspect a carrier group may be sent there to provide support to African Nations fighting there against the Islamic factions. Boots on the ground is probably doubtful, except in a… Read more »
Well we know they flew armed overwatch missions but not that they actually were required to drop any weapons, the gov. U.K. website hasn’t been updated since june. (Of course this wouldn’t cover us marine f35’s).
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-air-strikes-against-daesh#history
Agreed.
More back to Sierra Leon style operations.
Unfortunately the success of those interventions gave Blair the chops to bite of more than he was prepared to chew/resource.
Tides was a strange one, as none of the UK Yards bid, so the process had to go around again. but came on budget and program.
Your not reading between the lines, British Led teams, not built in Britain, Hulls could be built anywhere and then fitted out in the UK, if its built on an existing hull design, steel could be cut quickly.
That displays a lot of faith in the sclerosis procurement process……
Interesting enough. Not sure if the first bid ha smuch hope, I assume if Damen wins it will be built in Romania and then fitted out in the UK. The babcock/BAE and H&W BMT offering could be a tight race. Probably more down to politics than anything else
I suspect you’re right that politics will have a large part in the decision and I can see it going to Belfast rather than Rosyth for that reason. Just my take on it, for selfish reasons I’d love it to come to Rosyth.
I think we need to spread things out and rebuild capacity back in Northern Ireland to demonstrate with value their role in the UK. It’s been a long time since they have had investment. We should build more type 26 frigates as well (offer more to Scotland). Having eight type 26 frigates which are underspec in terms of weapon and defence systems makes no sense. I would like to see at least 15 type 26 frigates with weapons that make them truly a useful in high level combat missions. We can then have some of the type 31 and 32… Read more »
I’m genuinely intrigued why you think the T26 with a fitted 24 cell Mk41 VLS, Ceptor and 5″ & 2 x 30mm guns and Help/drones is underarmed?
I’m a bit confused as to why/how an ASW frigate should be more heavily armed in fact.
To be perfectly honest I would say T26 has one of the more balanced weapons packages with plenty of space to increase it with deck mount if needs be.
Fitted for but perhaps not with….
Good question mate, good question.
The Type 26 is probably the best armed escort the RN has ever had..
Batch 3 Type 22’s weren’t too shabby in that respect.
Yeah I love the batch 3 22s. It’s such a shame what we do to our fleet.
In what alternate universe can the defence budget be stretched to 15(!) Type 26’s and then have even more Type 31’s and 32’s?
Remember the 13 Type 26 order was judged to be unaffordable, and the Type 31’s where ordered specifically as an alternative to them.
Plus, if there is one ship in the RN’s arsenal that isn’t underarmed, it’s the Type 26, as Supportive Bloke pointed out.
And how would you pay for that wish list?
And are we affording these by a) scrap the nhs or b) scrap the airforce? Both about as likely.
Also as others have said if t26 is under armed, especially with sea lord saying will have land attack cruise missle, next gen anti ship plus all the other kit I think the only people that call it weakly armed would be the cousins
Well we have scrapped half the Air Force so it’s a start.
I think raf need to go with high/low mix like navy with t26/31/rivers. Not everything needs to be gold plated. Maybe tempest/typhoon at top end and something cheaper to make up few squadrons bought cheap at low end for hitting isis snd non peers. Hawks fitted for combat like export models able to use modern weapons s as nd would give pilots experience before going to top end planes.
How important do you think H&W is to NI? It’s been in decline for decades, the people of NI could most likely suggest plenty of better uses for the money that would be needed for this in H&W.
Like some agenda politics and transgender stuff. Plus more shops, restaurants and had along with homes that are affordable which means most are not. Service sectors like more law firms that extract wealth and produce misery, etc…
Yup would love to see Belfast get the work.
MOD Procurement is not political, has to be approved contractor and complete the paperwork to the letter of the procurement paper. and usually, if they complete the required elements the cheapest will regardless of value for money. DRIVES ME NUTS as you can see what’s coming with a shit bid, but meets the paperwork exercise.
Reading between the line this already sounds like a done deal to me. (Serco/Damen winning bidder). The early talk was it was going to be built in the UK, however now the messaging has changed to (will be constructed by “British-led teams”).
damen have to build the Netherlands support ship in the Netherlands under a evoked articul.
Not being built in Romania like previous ships. But we have to look at a huge loss of tax claw back. No U K taxpayer funded ship should be built elsewhere.
I can’t help agree, but those 4 Tides for £550 million seems pretty dam appetising..😘
They were around 1 billion pounds mate. They were terrible value.
Must be between Team Resolute and Team UK in terms of having the industrial capacity to provide a significant (whatever that means) proportion of British content/work.
Will be built in UK they say
so why have tax payers given money to
Complete waste of £10m giving money to the final 2 as they have no chance. Leidos are US and are just a consultancy. As for SERCO what can they offer?
£10m to give the illusion of competition.
The only bid that makes the slightest sense is Team UK. Team Resolute makes zero sense as H & W haven’t built a ship in decades….
Sometimes you learn something from listening to people. Same here: the competition is an option for MOD to listen and learn from four experienced players at least as far as design goes.
So I’d be more positive than that.
H & W have to start again somewhere, and it’s just one big block puzzle these days.
But somewhere should’t be a very high priority class of ships that need to be delivered on time. The Naval service can’t wait for H&W to put its self back in the shipbuilding business.
H&W should be a Cruise shipbuilder. I wish the GOV would get behind that type of thing, seeing the nation build great things goes along way to a nations happiness, well-being and pride. And the “we don’t build anything anymore” bullcrap needs to stop.
No that is not what is going on here, that Leidos and Serco led consortiums have been contracted to do initial design work for a proposal means they very much are real players with a chance of winning this and not ‘make weights’ to give the illusion of a competition. Tight contracts will be drafted up now and if either of those consortia think they are being played to give the impression of a competition that has been artificially tipped in Team UK or Team Resolutes favour they would legally challenge it and collapse the whole process again! As for… Read more »
H&W & BMT is actually the only one that makes sense, if the vessels are to be built in the UK. Team UK probably don’t have capacity to meet the timeline due to Frigate building commitments.
The most complex steelwork on the QEC (i.e. the Bulbous Bows) was actually produced at H&W Appledore Site (Babcock Appledore at the time). LE George Bernard Shaw which was commissioned in 2019 was the last ship built there. BMT are the design agent behind pretty much the whole UK Navy.
Hi Steve, In the announcements above they talk about British shilpbuilding not a British shipyard, which I take to mean there is some wriggle room on where the ships or some of the ships are built. British yards could, for example, build blocks and the wider supply chain would also count as Britsh Shipbuilding. Having said that I agree with you that Team UK and Team Resolute have to be the front runners as it would be politically very difficult for the government to give the construction to a foreign yard having stopped and delayed the FSS programme – but… Read more »
Possibly to make sure Team UK/Resolute keep their pencils sharp, and come in with a competitive bid…
expensive way to do that !!!!
Expensive compared to the price differential between T31 and T26?
That will be the T31 that BAE didn’t want to build because it was too busy?
OK: there is a level of difference between T31 & T26 but you get my drift that T31 was a pencil sharpening exercise.
Wonder if Babcock are glad they won T31?
Yes, it got them the RN stamp of approval for building a warship solo.
It also got them into UK warship building and therefore tech licensing.
They can leverage that.
There is a big market for mid range frigate/destroyers and T31 is a great platform.
Look at Babcock’s deal with Korea on the carrier etc.
The Parker report made a huge difference to UK gov thinking thankfully.
£10m is peanuts in the defence budget. If this keeps the winning bidders on their toes it will pat for itself.
They are probably column fodder; in the competition to put price pressure on the likely winner.
Well it looks pretty definite that they’re going to be built here. When you look back to when the program started that’s a big deal. This looks like it’s the first fruit of the Treasury including other benefits like Income tax, VAT etc from domestic over foreign orders. ☝
Please could one of you computer boffs look at the article entitled :Changing the Guard and see why we cannot comment on same? Is it a glitch in the page or are we not allowed to comment?
I usually email G direct geoff.
Hi Daniele. Hope you are well. I sent an email to the address on the contact page but haven’t heard back-not the end of the world-didn’t want to bother George but thanks for advice.Now here is something amazing- for the first time EVER, snow fell within the boundaries of greater Durban near my sons house. settled on the ground and started to turn white but melted before the next day. Still the world is upside down and we are all doomed! hope the sun holds up in Surrey. All the best my friend Geoff ps will try and send you… Read more »
I had the same result when I tried to inform “The Management” of the Uk buying 10K new weapons for the Specials operations brigade
https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/51203
I’ll simply bide my time until a story about gats opens up
Very interesting, although like most MOD decisions I’ll bet it’s made by someone that’s never picked up any of them.
LMT like New Zealand, maybe same as sharpshooter rifle, BREN2? newish design, maybe swap for an old t23?
Hi my friend.
In Surrey, Sun?? Not had much for weeks! Very poor summer here.
I know you jest, but don’t let the doom mongers get you down.
The UK is still somebody despite the Afghan shambles. ☝️
Rule Britannia Daniele!!
Crikey Geoff- and I thought Auckland was cold! No doubt you have an endless supply of electricity to keep nice and warm? Seriously though, I hope those rolling blackouts are now a thing of the past .
Howsit Klonkie ! As you know such cold spells are rare and short lived here in Durban but it is a first for Durban Metro although someone once told me they had seen snow from the top of a Ridge road Berea block of flats that melted before it hit the ground!!
ps bought a battery and inverter but Eskom been behaving lately
Nice mate!
Interesting that CL isn’t involved, possibly they’ll tack onto one of the bids that lack available UK yards (Also interesting that BAe and Babcock bid since…. you know… where might they build them?)
Rosyth build to a Bae design. Blocks from all over.
Rosyth is building Type 31’s, would require major uplift in size to build.
Turns out CL is part of the Team UK bid though, so that’s probably where it fits in.
The carriers were assembled at Rosyth,. It’s plenty big enough.
The workforce is busy building Type 31, and the space that was used for Aircraft Carrier construction has largely been redeveloped to accommodate the “Frigate Factory.”
If the Type 31 (and prospectively the Type 32) were not being built there, then Rosyth would be big enough, as it is…. not so much.
The carrier blocks were built elsewhere and assembled in a Rosyth dock by a combined Bae & Babcick’s workforce. All Rosyth facilities are still in place to repeat that process.
*mostly built elsewhere. Some simple carrier sponsons were built at Rosyth.
They will be busy refitting the Waves as solid support ships…..
Why would the Waves be refitted as Solid Stores ships when 3 massive solid stores ship contracts are going out?
Also as I pointed out, apparently CL is part of the BAe/Babcock bid.
For three reasons I think. Firstly right now Fort Vic is a single point of failure for global deployment of CSG. Secondly this exposure will be for about 5 years on current plans. And thirdly a refit contract will even out the budget spend and probably make the Waves into attractive mixed stores and liquid vessels at resale.
But by the time a refit is designed, the contract awarded, and the Waves refitted it will have been 5 years anyway… and as you pointed out, it’ll fill up yards that will want to be building the FSS.
You may be right. Without knowing more about any refit options it’s hard to say. And I for one am not expert in ship building. But it occurs to me that the Waves can handle a Merlin so basic vertrep is an option straight away. Depending on the stability of the ship maybe there’s a quick and cheap option where they avoid going into the bowels of the ship and just flatten the deck for containers, which could be lifted by cranes or Chinooks from the carrier. Maybe I’m putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 but they have… Read more »
It’s less the getting the stuff from one to the other, the problem is (as I understand it) that there’s a lot of work that has to go into making a ship safe for carrying explosives in large enough quantities to keep a CSG supplied. Otherwise you could just take a container ship up from civilian trade, bolt a crane on it and have a solid stores ship for peanuts.
Ah, good point. We’ll have to leave it there then and see what happens. Cheers.
The issue for the UK is we have denuded our skills and industrial base so much. I liked many of Margaret Thatcher’s policies but her industrial strategy was non-existent. This was quickly followed by John Major and then Tony Blair put the final nail in the cofin. The government is trying their best with an industrial strategy but it still isn’t cutting the mustard. We really neeed a full civil and industrial science, engineering, technology strategy and maybe if this includes tarriffs on some Chinese goods so be it. China is using slave labour and an undervalued currency to literally… Read more »
Well said that man.
The West seems to be oblivious to the fact that the Chinese have been waging an economic war against us for decades, destroying our industrial and manufacturing base without having to risk a single long-range bomber…
Not any more we’re not. Ask the Chinese. Mr Xi might be going Putinesq in the south china sea recently because he knows he’s been rumbled and has nothing to lose anymore.
I think your totally correct, the first sign was getting rid of real apprenticeships. When I left school it was university for everything, they looked down on technical and trades. Now 20 years later you can’t get sparky. Bae are restarting there tech school. Hopefully ship building will be put on a schedule that will make it sustainable. Other countries manage to back door subsidise and keep defence companies going so why don’t we? Haven’t government bought a specialist steel company? We need to follow america in protecting strategic industries. Haven’t they just asset striped chobam armour?
Absolutely essential to our future deployable and sustainable carrier capability. The RFA is one of a number of assets we can provide which not many others can. These ships must be built, even if it means reducing other assets (although we are so thin on the ground on kit and people I wouldn’t like to guess where else we can cut). Hopefully these are in the core budget and they are built with no cost overruns or any attempt at kicking the can down the road.
Team Resolute is Spanish Navantia built to a BMT design with some window dressing by H&W. Basically giving 90+% of the work to the folks that give Gibraltar a hard time.
There’s only one UK bid here and that’s Bae/Babcock’s.
Ron wrote:
“”Basically giving 90+% of the work to the folks that give Gibraltar a hard time.””
What is interesting about that. is the UK gave the contract for Ajax to the Spanish in which to buy them off regards Gib, So glad that worked out
That is so not the reason GD UK won the Ajax bid.
The UK has just built two bloody great aircraft carriers. Surely we can build these support ships in the same way – in sections in different shipyards. Reopen Portsmouth for shipbuilding (In case Scotland votes for independence).
For God’s sake YES!
Get Appledore working again they should have been given the Rivers to build as they can do up to about 13k Tons / 130 Mts (HMS Scott), Scottish Yards should have given frigates earlier, they can build blocks for bigger ships.
Appledore is now owned by H&W and should be back on stream soon.
They have owned it for some time. Still no sign of any orders or workforce.
The problem with that was the River B2’s where ordered specifically to keep the workforce at Govan in, had the Frigates been built earlier the Rivers simply would never have been ordered.
True but navy seem quite happy with using them to free up top assets from constabulary and disaster duty
In retrospect they are a brilliant purchase, and I think they are worth their weight in gold, but that doesn’t change the fact that in the mid 2010’s the Navy didn’t want them, and would never have ordered them if it didn’t have to meet it’s obligations to keep Govan open for the delayed Type 26 order.
Absolutely. I love the B2 Rivers. I’d build 10 more if we had crew. Tweak a bit for drone support and increased ELINT. Global presence on the cheap.
Similar issues to building more Carriers:
A&P Tyne is busy with civilian contracts.
BAe Govan is busy building Type 26.
Babcock Rosyth is busy building Type 31.
BAe Portsmouth closed.
That leaves:
H&W Belfast (almost certainly part of the H&W bid)
H&W Appeldore (looks to be building things from Ukraine)
CL Birkenhead (part of the Team UK bid).
We can obviously build them. However can we build them on time and can we build them for a good price? That is the question. The UK has limited capacity and is already in the middle of building all the Frigates. Where is the extra capacity going to come from? Also there is a case for paying a bit more for UK built ships but if they are too costly then we are simply wasting money. We are fantastic at building complex high tech warships. We are not so good at building commodity ships that come off production lines for… Read more »
Off topic
According to Navy Lookout website Twitter feed HMS Diamond engine repairs are complete, out of dock and back to sea for trials 🙂
Be interesting if we find out what took them so long.
Good news, at last!
Not too sure how the UK work content is going to work if only 2 of the 4 bidding groups includes a UK shipbuilding capability, and one of those is not currently in use.
Servo? I guess they would manage the otherwise foreign designed/built vessels, god save us. Will probably deliver them to Iran if they ever get involved in this project…. You had one job Serco.
God we need these fast support ships now, not in five or ten years time. The next issue is with some of the consortia, e.g H&W when did they last build a ship for the RN or RFA. I think it was 1994 with Fort Vic. The last ship was in 2002. So using H&W would take time to bring those skills back. Then comes Babcock, where would they build a 30,000-40,000 ton ship Rosyth? Thats not possible due to the T31 program. That leaves Liverpool. So you can see the issue. Not only that but we also want to… Read more »
The RN is already making noises about the Type 32 being a direct follow on from the Type 31, so Rosyth probably has a bright future.
National Flagship will probably go to whichever yard (CL or H&W) doesn’t get the FSS to be followed by MRSS, and I’d be shocked if Albion-Bulwark aren’t replaced by a pair of MRSS.
Will the waves get scrapped after these are built?
Hopefully not. Waves are fast fleet tankers so should have no relation to the FSSS which is to replace Fort Victoria Austin and Rosalie. But they will need replacement, along with the Bays and Argus, and the idea seems to be that they will be replaced by MRSS.
Ok thanks eclipse
What did the Tides replace again?
I believe they replaced the Leaf-class tankers.
Hopefully not. Waves are fast fleet tankers so should have no relation to the FSSS which is to replace Fort Victoria Austin and Rosalie. But they will need replacement, along with the Bays and Argus, and the idea seems to be that they will be replaced by MRSS.
No, they are completely different sorts of ship. Waves are tankers these are solid stores ships.
I know the Difference buddy, i was thinking the Gov always seem Keen to scrap ships when new comes along even if they are slightly diferent replenishment ships.
To be fair to ATH, I also took from your post you didn’t know the difference.
Ok mate fair enough.
Old Forts are well passed it, but i reckon one will come back for a season or 2. Solid stores is whats needed and these ships are perfect for that, old yes but they could do a few more years. And with little expense. Wave converted sounds good but why would you when you have the old Forts. Sell the other Wave ( you were planning to do so any way ) Throw funds to old Fort for a few years.
Seems like the UK needs 20-30 years notice to fight the next major war & even then will be lacking the numbers & sustainability to do what’s needed. FSS program is way beyond foot-dragging. Hopefully this step in the right direction will be followed by progress rather than turning into another damp squib.
I am excited to see other countries around the Pacific starting to join the US Navy as owners of aircraft carriers. It only strengthens all of us!
For me this is a no brainer…should go the way of H&W Belfast with Navantia oversight. Others yards have plenty of work and with Navantia involved will re-input the required skill sets back into the UK workforce….dont see another way this contract would work. Maximum benefit to UK yard regeneration, UK build (final) whilst building up UK skillset…without over commiting existing yards.
Navantia is not in the least interested in creating a competitor in Northern Ireland. Their plan is to build the ships in Spain and do the military outfitting (a relatively minor task) in NI.
Hi Ron, I agree that would be Navantias take on it but I think you’ll find the way the 4 contracts have been given is to extract as much UK work as possible…with rival contenders they know they’ll not get it based on outfit only. I dont like this process for one minute but the realists will realise the goverment/MOD have actually been quite clever with this.
Perhaps. Time will tell.
When the UK project will be finished? How much it will cost? What quality it would have?
I am actually mildly surprised that no one except the Spanish have entered in it. It shows the MoD is not much trustworthy.
You mean besides India and the Netherlands?
You right. And there is also Damen. My mistake.
I will probably get blasted by the knowledgeable contributors here but I am curious; why not “dust off” the Vic’s design plans and build a modern version of that? Wouldn’t it save time and money?
Wouldn’t meet today’s rules, regulations and standards. Besides, Vic wasn’t designed to support carriers at all. That class was designed to support a small fleet of Type 23’s performing ASW.
By the time, you’ve fixed all that, you might as well start with a fresh design. In fact that would be easier.
Thanks for the reply Ron5. The answer was quite simple, I didn’t consider that the regulations/ standards would have an impact. That makes sense.