Greece has signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) making official its intent to procure 35 UH-60M Black Hawk helicopters built by Sikorsky, a Lockheed Martin company, via U.S. government Foreign Military Sale.
“The latest generation UH-60M Black Hawk will support the Hellenic Ministry of Defense’s ongoing modernisation and will serve as a dependable helicopter for vital national and allied security missions,” said Paul Lemmo, president of Sikorsky.
“Trusted and operated by more than 35 nations, including a growing number of NATO allies, the multi-role Black Hawk helicopter provides unmatched global interoperability, significantly increasing Greece’s deterrent capability and that of all NATO member countries.”
In addition to the aircraft, the procurement also includes personnel training and training equipment to ensure the helicopters’ smooth integration into the Hellenic Army.
“We are honored to expand our existing partnership with the Hellenic Armed Forces with the addition of the UH-60M Black Hawk to their growing fleet,” said Costas Papadopoulos, international business development director for Greece at Lockheed Martin.
“The Black Hawk is the best solution for Greece’s multi-mission requirements with capabilities enhancing the nation’s effectiveness in the 21st Century Security battlespace.”
With its existing S-70B fleet and newly acquired MH-60R maritime helicopters for the Hellenic Navy, Greece will operate several variants of the Hawk family and benefit from the operational and sustainment advantages of fleet commonality, say Lockheed.
Let’s hope we can finally get and order some too.
Perhaps with a UK arm assembling them from kits. Maybe Leonardo could bid to assemble them to preserve this ‘vital sovereign Italian helicopter capability’😉.
The British would not buy the Black Hawk as the AW149is the better helicopter
I knew you would bite😂😂
By better, I assume you mean reassuringly expensive , so it must be good?
No
When I say better, I say modern design as the UH-60 Black Hawk is still a 50+ year old design that is at the end of useful development life
You could say exactly the same thing about Chinook, except that’s 60 and still an indispensable ‘go to’ asset… I say Blackhawk is the only one of the contenders that has been specifically designed from the ground up to be a survivable battlefield helicopter. The Americans were in a unique position to design such a helicopter, directly from Vietnam combat UH1 experience. It’s 40 plus years of service are actually a plus, not a minus, any niggles and faults routed out, upgraded with the latest avionics and engines that are constantly being improved. Both Leonard’s and Airbus offerings are derived… Read more »
not true the 149 is a ground up military build as well….it’s a bit of an old wives tail that the 149 was a civilian rotor first…the 139 was a civilian rotor adapted to military usage. The 149 was a ground up military build that was later adapted as a civilian rotor and called the AW189.
the AW 149 has everything a military rotor requires….it’s also got better crash survivability than the Blackhawk and can take a heavier landing.
UK should have purchased the Blackhawk years ago, back when the Westland 30 was the “better helicopter”
Yep the helicopter the Army and RAF have wanted for 30 years, but let’s not let that get in the way of a long drawn out mock competition that will get a handful of AW149’s ordered at huge expense.
A competition that will be as valid as Putin’s election….
Let’s start taking bets …
Requirement for 40 plus helicopters:
I put £10 on an order for 25 AW149’s
May the best helicopter win on range, speed, payload, value for money and whatever else! 🚁 🇬🇧
It’s not “Top trumps”
Merlin looked great on paper, until we tried to use it in a non-marine environment, where it sucked.
Merlin HC3 was yet again a politically forced solution and as you say, simply found wanting in Afghanistan.
Not Tonka tough, while Chinook and Blackhawk went into the fight, day in day out.
A fair competition is absolutely the right way to go, White elephant Wildcat, shows what will inevitably happen when the all conquering ‘ but what of the Wasteland workers’ lobby gets into high gear.
Result, an absolutely minimum order of a complex, extremely expensive and fragile civilian devised platform.
We all know it….
Talking of “Wildcat”, let’s hope that gets the RNZN 9 helo requirement. At least a good sniff at it anyway… Lol 😁
yeah Mate – you and me both! 😉
They’ll look a bit stupid if they don’t get enough helos for this requirement, kind of defeats or reduces their purpose doesn’t it? Let’s be positive, the new Chinook ER order was a bonus and we might be surprised on this one. If there’s an emphasis on speed, range, agility, capability there’s no room for a Iemon.
I’ll try and be positive, you are absolutely right Quentin 👍
The requirement is for “up to 44” Numbers will be cut again and people here will complain, but AW workers and Yeovil’s MPs will be happy. Is the priority in our budget kit for the military at a good price for the number needed, or money paid into the UK MIC? I suggest the later in most cases. Sovereign capability is always welcome and necessary, but not in all cases, and for me, medium helicopters are one such area. I’d like to see a cost comparison of BH vs AW, with the tax benefit excluded because that money does not… Read more »
Seconded sir….
You have to wonder what goes through the minds of whomever is in charge of procurement at the MOD!
The delay to the programme to allow for ‘further analysis of the delivery timeline’ to name but one reason for the delay, has added £500 million to the whole programme costs (£150 million for extra through life costs, £320 mill for extra 3 yrs support for Puma). Oh, and we still don’t have an order for a replacement – yet!!!
Laurel and Hardy couldn’t make this up.
Cretins. It’s been shown time and time again stretching stuff out costs more longer term.
Who is responsible for the oversight of these acquisitions? Someones doing a first class job in wasting and mismanaging huge amounts of taxpayers money here. Kind of “smart but stupid”. Where’s the accountability? That’s the price an extra T31 and maybe 2/3 of a T26!
I find it bewildering and absolutely incredible that we make such decisions.
By all accounts NMH has a funding line (£1.3 billion) in place. Puma needs a replacement now. We have three examples in the running, so must know what we want!
Yet in our wisdom, we have decided to p**s some 25% of the available readies up the wall by extending Pumas OOS date by three years, all for some 24 remaining examples.
F***ING unbelievable!!
Unfortunately not unbelievable, it’s entirely the norm depressingly….
Morning Daniele, yes to the quantity and value for money. Don’t know if they’re options for new and some refurbished to bring costs down? Being slightly flippant here, but get 40 full priced and 4 free or reduced? My partner was telling me that Saab were offering 2 free Grippen if the Phillipines ordered the full 12! Sounds like some supermarket deal! Not sure if this can be verified.
That is hillarious Q.
Yes, it’s pretty amazing if true. My partner is Filipina and I’m not sure where she read it or misread it! Lol 😁. I’ll try and find out.
The new Chinook ER order cost us 2Bn pounds for 14 airframes. That’s more expensive than 14 F-35Bs.
I’d hardly call that a ‘bonus’.
Agree. I meant bonus in capacity and capability but yes that’s very big money which still seems to be around. Maybe they can/will do the same for this requirement?
But the ER model offers excellent capability that’s just as important as the F35B.
Should Yeovil and environs go full on Liberal, then perhaps their voice might be lost in a Labour victory, every cloud…
Well quite possibly….. I would like a three helicopter, head to head competition taking them into the desert, jungle, arctic and aboard ship, really thrashing them about to the max with heavy loads ( including underslung) and standard squaddy abuse. Put all three under maximum stress. Let’s see what breaks first…. I would like to see battle damage field repair assessment carried out on all three, maritime pitching deck limits and forward sea basing abilities. Ease of maintenance in the field and ability to up arm with pylons/ refueling prope etc for possible future SF roles. The helicopter needs to… Read more »
The wildcat is a profoundly good rotor for what it does…but is a light utility and naval rotor not a medium lift…. im not sure what civilian design platform is in the picture for the medium rotor..if your talking about the 149..it’s not a civilian rotor and never has been….the civilian rotor is the 189 which was designed and built after the 149. The 149 is able to protect its passengers in a 56feet per second impact…black hawk is designed to be survivable at 38 feet per second. The simple reality is if your in a crash you would have… Read more »
Hi Jonathan, I’m afraid I don’t buy into the Wildcat is profoundly good at what it does, given that we have been discussing Army Wildcat in particular. In what way is it good for anything quite frankly??? The Army Wildcat was certainly profoundly good at keeping a factory open, but I’m slightly at a loss to see anything it’s useful for in the AAC. Re the 149, you would make a great car salesman mate, I almost had my wallet out😂😂 Best case I’ve heard for it yet! A couple of observations, the 149 is developed from the 139, that’s… Read more »
Sounds about right.
What with the new entente cordiale and French troops taking part in the changing of the guard my money is on H175M and Broughton. I’ll bet they match the Black Hawk price.
I’d love to see a “Black Adder” take on all this… can you imagine? It’d be hilarious 😂
In all seriousness it’s good we’re still standing by each other and Europe. Hope the French put up some top security for the Olympics after reading ISIS was threatening some athletics events. And we’ll have to keep an eye on Russia and her friends while we’re distracted with it all.
Absolutely, political bun fighting aside, we work closely with our European neighbours, particularly the French, if things turned hot with the Russians, you could guarantee anglo french forces would coordinate very closely.
LOL.
I can’t believe it takes this long to make a decision…..other factors at work?
I’m fairly sure George is in charge of the procument process mate 😂😂
🆗, we’ll blame him then… Lol 😁
In interesting gamble there Paul, long odds, but you never know……
Yeah except we have the same problem as by now the Westland WS-70 would be up for replacement but there would be the history of the last betrayal of the British Aerospace industry by the Tories which would have had a ripple effect
Had the WS70 actually been ordered, we would now be replacing them with new WS70 M’s. Who knows, Westland might have actually had a hand in the product improvement plan over the intervening years and might have done quite well exporting and maintaining the type and been a regional support hub for the Blackhawk. But alas, we made absolutely sure that Westlands didn’t produce a helicopter that the world market actually wanted … A top business move there! Instead we spent years ringing out the last drops out of the Sea King, spent an absolute fortune on Merlin that though… Read more »
The 🇺🇸 sure knocks up their military sales quickly! Like a machine! This on top of the the Greek Constellation frigate sale, thoughnot sure if that’s finalised? And maybe Patriot too.
Greece wants co-production. The Greek request is in limbo since the Constellation frigate program is now three years behind schedule. The USS Constellation probably won’t be delivered until 2029. In fact, all US Navy ship building programs are in severe trouble. There’s a skilled labor crisis in the US that started during COVID and has continued. It’s not an issue that management or funds can solve.
I thought the T31/A140 had a chance for the Greek frigate requirement?
Read that schedule slippage pronouncement recently. 🙄 Dunno, perhaps should have revised the competition criteria to permit BAES to enter a T-26 derivative. May have kept Fincanteri more realistic in terms of program timeline. 🤔
Need to know how much they paid for their 35 BH so it can be compared to the fortune we will spend for no doubt far fewer AWs when FMH is finally ordered.
If we get to 30 FMH I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
Impossible to say in these deals. The Greek one includes all maintenance, support, spare parts and training for about a decade.
I found these unit costs submitted in 2021 for the medium helicopter.
Sikorsky S70M – 22.72M Euros ($25.69M at today’s prices) Leonardo AW149 – 24.35M Euros ($27.53M) Airbus H215 – 31.59M Euros ($35.72M)
Surprised the Airbus is quite a bit more and that Blackhawk and AW are close.
Had hoped Blackhawk would be substantially cheaper as it’s built in Poland so needed something to sweeten the deal.
Hi MS. Thank you.
I hoped it would be too, if there is no big difference then go with AW, though I remain suspicious at how we are able to pay top prices almost every time in buying kit for what really should be a simple OTS purchase.
The key will be how much is all the Addons.
Also how is the program structured? Are the numbers fixed? Will more helicopters be allowed if it fits in the budget? If there is a set number of cabs then the addons and package become important.
If one deal has 40 cabs with 5 years spares and training and the other has 40 cabs, full package, 10 years spares, 1 million rounds, guns and all the bells and whistles.
Black Hawk was originally designed in 1972, and the updated UH-60M was produced from 2006. Is it not a little ‘old hat’?
Bog standard Puma can carry 16 rather than Black Hawk’s 11 passengers.
Why the obsession with Black Hawk?
I’ve always thought that there was some logic to replacing Puma with Puma.
It can be carried in a C-130, A400, C-17.. It can external load lift more than a Puma, AW-149.. anything in its class really. Unlike the Puma it has a low enough CG to use in all naval applications, it has navalized variants and it’s designed to extreme survivability standards.
It’s parts supply and availability is world wide and they’re cheap too boot. It’s an extremely capable helicopter.
Thanks. I was to some extent playing ‘Devils Advocate’. Due to the smaller passenger numbers carried compared to Puma, we will have to buy more of them, but if they are cheap then the bean-counters may actually fund all that we need – that would be ‘a first’.
The AS149 can be carried in a C17 and A400 also.
I’m still puzzled how the Blackhawk can fly over 2000lbs heavier than AW149 when it has weaker engines. The rotors aren’t substantially bigger. I suppose the question would be what can they do with certain similar payloads.
As they are both similarly priced a fly off would be great. Also support costs, spares package etc costs will have a big impact.
Sums it all up really……
To add to Chris comment, I keep hearing that the military actually want it?? Including a certain Regiment in the West. What a concept.
Can we have a compromise and mixed fleet? BH for those SF that want it and WE (whatever else) for the rest? Isn’t Poland producing and adopting the two BH & AW149 types? Not sure on their numbers.
You could, but they’re looking to simplify things moving to a single type.
The non deployable side of SF aviation already use a different type which is optimised for UK CT. The wider RAF Puma fleet which is to be replaced by this order also has a small SF element, so a SF modified type for that flight is also required.
Fair point. So long as its cheap (as Chris says) and bests Puma in every regard…and we buy more aircraft than we had Puma due to Blackhawk’s reduced passenger carriage.
Because people has been mislead over the decades by American propaganda that it is better than anyone’s else stuff
Maybe. I am ex-army, but obviously have an interest in troop-carrying helos. We would need 3 BH to carry a Platoon rather than 2 Pumas.
The debate somewhat reminds me of those who advocated strongly buying Leopard 2 rather than Chally 2 back in the day (even though CR2 was better armoured) – German propaganda then, probably.
Yes, bizarrely if measure the AW 149 against the Blackhawk the 149 beats it in almost all areas…it carriers more troops, it’s got a longer range and it’s faster…it’s got a smaller rotor circumference ( by around 2 meter etc..but the same old tropes are wheeled out Blackhawk was a ground up military rotor it’s sturdier..ect…yet the 149 was a ground up military rotor…that is actually more crash worthy than a Blackhawk…you will walk away from a 56feet per second crash in a 149 and a 38feet per second crash in a Blackhawk….the 149 is designed to survive hits from… Read more »
Your stats are completely false. AW-149 useful load 3800kg UH-60 useful load 4400kg AW-149 slung load 2600kg UH-60 slung load 4100kg (it can sling a 105mm howitzer) AW-149 cruise speed 150knots UH-60 cruise speed 152 knots The UH-60 has a larger blade diameter and chord for high altitude operations. It was the only medium lift helicopter that could do the job in (hot and high) Afghanistan, the UK army saw that first hand. The UH-60 has been crash tested to vertical and horizontal velocities of 50fps and 42fps with full twin 230 external fuel tanks, something the AW-149 isn’t even… Read more »
My stats are not completely false…you have just picked a few extra….does not remove the things the AW149 is better at…my facts are all from the official data on each aircraft…you cannot get away from what the AW149 is better at….
Which is what? Being an expensive warmed up civil helo? 😂
Maybe have a good read of the development of the 149 ans what it actually is mate…the 139 is a civilian rotor…the 149 was based around some of its design concepts…but was a military build up and a different airframe..which is why the civil version of the 149 which uses concepts from the 149 is a completely different rotor again… essentially it’s like calling a spitfire a civilian plane because it uses concepts from a civilian racing plane….there needs to be an actual proper balanced holistic look at what is the most appropriate rotor for the UK is not what… Read more »
Completely correct. Until we see the actual bids it’s all hot air. A fly off would be great.
The AW149 is a great medium military helicopter and it will be built in the U.K. with at least 70% U.K. content.
The unit costs are basically the same between the 2. The add ons costs are what we need to see.
Also the forces already operate AW helicopters.
The USA has shown its self to be an unreliable ally partner. Unfortunately that could only become more of a problem.
Well said 👍 🇬🇧
The numbers carried don’t really tally in real life. As that’s pax minus kit, i.e. no bergens, heavy weapons etc. The Puma is closer to 10 when carrying pax with a full war load. This also affects the Blackhawk, whose numbers are also reduced. Both aircraft have fairly low cabins, so you have to stoop to move about in it. Though the Puma’s is slightly taller. The Blackhawk has a dedicated side window for a mounted weapon, whereas in the Puma, the weapon has to be mounted on a beam in the main sliding cabin door. This means that when… Read more »
Thanks for the details. It is a bit of a moot point about carriage in a Herc, as we are phasing them out.
How did I know this thread would go into a BH vs AW … discussion?
How much commonality is there between the 1972 BH as designed and those being fielded now? If it has moved on and developed, then if in VFM terms it is the best, buy it.
Oh, Daniele, I think ‘them’ don’t want BH, they want a gucci, aly, the one of those super stealthy, knight rider types that went down over Pakistan… just saying 😉
Morning David. Yep, John and I always kick things off. The version used by the 160 SOAR is I believe a little less specialised than the 2 used over Pakistan!
I think there is more chance of Putin joining the WI than the US selling those.
And yet did we not supply pilots for their U2s or Blackbirds, we certainly flew their RB57s over Warsaw Pact, as well. Stranger things might happen although I agree about Putin and the WI.
Not aware of any British pilots on the SR71. We operated our Canberra aircraft into the Soviet Union too.
Due to the special relationship there is an exchange of tech and knowledge in several areas, so if anyone was allowed to operate those helicopters it might well be us. The RAF and USN were the only nations to have exchange pilots on the F117 program I understand, quite early on too when Jaguar and Harrier pilots were sent over. And there was a proposed F117B for the RAF.
Over on Prune, U2s were flown by the RAF, SR71s were not.
Indeed.
I can’t help myself mate, the fact that we didn’t just buy the BH many years ago simply grinds my gears…
Like many of us, I totally dispare of seeing our precious defence budget thrown away on politically mandated procurement interference….
Yep. For me it narrows somewhat if the prices are the same or v similar, as I mentioned to MS up thread. His quoted prices for the 2 were close.
But I remain suspicious! We are masters at it!
Don’t know if it’s true, the price I heard many times on various defence sites decades ago now was 350 million for 40! We spent a billion plus on….ahem…your fav heli instead as it kept MPs in Somerset happy.
And who knows, may be some ex braid had crawled into the board as well for a bit of nudge nudge old boy stuff.
I will join you on the suspicious table. 😂😂😂
I think Pakistan have a tail boom on eBay DB, that’s probably all we could afford anyway 😂😂😂
Doubt it, made of super rare earth metals only available from… China, that boom will cost a fortune.
Agree with your thoughts about testing and the best VFM wins.
It goes back to a wider point, Defence needs taking out of politics, and for some projects just an idea. Should we place LE officers into project acquisition / scoping and let them progress to Full Colonel as the project matures?
Their experience alone might rein in blue sky thinking, gold plating and keep projects grounded.
Just a thought.
A ‘massive’ slice of common sense there DB…. Unfortunately political interference is always front and center with our procurement. We could fill an entire forum with political tinkering that’s cost us an absolute fortune… The 1965 decision to buy the F4 for the RN instead of the P1154 was on paper, a sensible idea.. However, instead of simply going for a UK assembly option of a modified F4B, we just had to reengineer it. We fitted the reheated Spey, an engine totally unsuited to the airframe, leading to major modifications, MD flagging this redesign up as a huge mistake very… Read more »
Never heard that gem. Thanks for sharing!
One of the unbuilt variants in my Phantom book, very few references to it online. The interesting thing about the Delta ‘K’ is that MD had the confidence to propose a fully costed programme, having already wind tunnel tested and confirmed the general arrangement. Using existing engines and avionics would obviously mitigate costs to. BAC would have helped refine the wing design, build 50% of the airframe and assemble it in the UK. The export potential is obvious too…. Canada and Saudi Arabia come immediately to mind for starters. So an Anglo American 50/50 programme, with a single UK production… Read more »
Always remember Tomorrows World did a feature on the Tornado and a BIG if IIRC, they slated it. And yet, there’s a YouTube where Wing Commander or some such states that on a ‘Red Flag’ the tonka’s were asked to leave their transponders on. A little bit like me feeling nostalgic for BR, Class 87s and Mk3 carriages in intercity swallow livery?? What also comes out is throwing Vulcans into low level attacks which ripped them apart and a tactic only walked away from after GW1 and our disastrous tonka losses. Could the Vulcan have been another B52, if left… Read more »
It’s interesting isn’t it….. The Tornado, as an ultra low level, high speed striker had few equals, but it had drifted far from its multi role roots at Inception and morphed into a designed by committee, dedicated short range strike aircraft. If you step back to its roots, we go back to the Anglo French Variable Geometry aircraft. The design had a passing resemblance to the Tornado F3, but with circular intakes and shock cones. Designed as the affordable multi role stablemate to TSR2, it was scuppered by French withdrawal. The design was revised and improved, becoming the UK Variable… Read more »