Defence firm Plasan has signed a contract with BAE Systems to provide armour for the second batch of five Type 26 Frigates being built in Glasgow for the Royal Navy.

Plasan is currently delivering composite armour for the first three of eight frigates as part of the earlier Batch 1 contract.

The new Batch 2 contract includes composite armour for five Type 26 frigates that will be placed in key locations.

According to a news release:

“The unique installation approach that was demonstrated as part of Batch 1 deliveries will allow simple and cost effective integration for the entire Type 26 fleet of eight. Plasan’s world leading armour technology, flexibility and innovation is well suited to the Type 26 approach and has helped to secure this important programme. 

The quality and production processes within Plasan underpin the confidence that has been shown in selecting Plasan’s solution also for the follow on orders.  Working together with Design Authority partners has strengthened the ethos of Plasan’s success.”

The new Type 26 Frigate designed and built by BAE Systems is the new class selected for the replacement of eight anti-submarine frigates of the Duke class currently in service with the Royal Navy. Type 26 will provide increased capability and flexibility through a design that includes a multi-role mission bay, large flight deck and hangar that can exploit a range of manned and unmanned systems. There will also be great scope for future development.

Avatar photo
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

153 Comments
oldest
newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 year ago

Interesting development and I dare say someone will ask why Israel ? I’d like to know if we have any ballistic armour on other warships like the T45 or QE’s ?
I know it was part of the Original Alpha spec carrier design but no idea if it was progressed to the final build.
Anyone know ?

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Weight and ballistic protection. Plasan is well known for addon armour. But details in a secretive stuff like armour are difficult to come.

Jonny
Jonny
1 year ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

I remember seeing that armour was on the original design for the aircraft carriers but was removed for cost reasons (as usual). Now they don’t have much armour at all. Sorry don’t have a source.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny

There were 4 main designs of aircraft carrier alpha being the one with all the bells and whistles and most costly.
The navy lookout web site has some great info about the proposals.
The carriers still have some armour just not as much would have been included with the most expensive alpha model.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Exactly.

That version had Sampson as well.

This is the kind of thing that can be added in maintenance periods anyway.

Nothing is going to stop a modern 4-6” shell – there is too much kinetic energy. This is more to do with 20-30mm shells and splinter damage or making sure damage is localised and does not spread to critical compartments.

grinch
grinch
1 year ago

Unlike those old 6″ shells, no kinetic energy at all. Useless really 😎

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Ok – badly put I agree.

The front end of a modern armour piercing naval shell is pretty sophisticated as are anti tank shells. We’ve seen that in Ukraine. We’ve seen how useless mass steel armour is on Russian tanks.

grinch
grinch
1 year ago

Just kidding

Ian
Ian
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny

What would the armour weigh, and what impact would it have on the displacement of the ship versus the amount of usable space? The QEs barely fit into Portsmouth as it is.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian

It would radically shrink the ship. The structure has to be stronger to deal with the non-structural deadweight.

Then next issue is that the main functional bit of an aircraft carrier is above the waterline so the metacentric weight / CoG would be messed up.

Ian
Ian
1 year ago

That’s what I assumed. It also occurs to me that if a CSG is having to rely on armour protection then something has already gone badly wrong.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian

Some armour is needed to prevent a recurrence of the Argentine attack on a T22 which severed the Sea Wolf loom with 20mm cannon fire.

Some compartments also need armouring to prevent shrapnel damage to critical systems.

Making the ship survivable and fightable is the name of the game. Not trying to produce a WWII heavy cruiser!

GR
GR
1 year ago

Can the Israelis be trusted? It wasn’t that long ago when Menachaim Begin was supplying the Argentinians with weapons to destroy the task force during the Falklands. Is Israel a reliable ally now?

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

Same time that UK was supplying weapons to Arab states to destroy Israel?
Or that Cheftain tank was started with Israel cooperation and they were booted out to not upset arms selling?

Last edited 1 year ago by AlexS
GR
GR
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

“Whataboutery” isn’t even relevent here, we shouldn’t be buying military hardware off countries that aren’t reliably allied to us. Is Israel buying anything off us that could at least give us leverage over them if they think about helping our enemies again or is this display of trust in their good intentions entirely one way?

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

We already buy loads of kit from Israeli firms: Laser detectors, Spike NLOS (Exactor) to name two.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian M.

Trophy for C3 is an Israeli system

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

So you bring stuff from 1980- 40 years ago – and that is not a bit whataboutery?

Why you did not bring the Exactor(Spike) that Israel supplied to British Army in a special request at time of Afghanistan, that was already in XXI century?

Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

You beat me to it. People who fain uncertainty to mask steadfast opposition are weasels.

Jack
Jack
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

Do we build anything they want or need ? They do.

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack

They buy Martin Baker with aircraft seats for example.
Note also the reality is not only what appear here or in the other news. Lots of small essential components do not appear in the news. Even intellectual property like an algorithm.

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

Not that long ago? 40 years!

DaveH
DaveH
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian M.

The Falklands war is the mid-way point between now and the Dieppe raid. The Falklands was actually quite some time ago.

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian M.

Yep, 1945 ended WW2.
That was a real war between Britain and Germany.

40 years later 1985 they trained side by side.

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

Yup, I was there (not 1945! In BAOR in ’85)

Rokuth
Rokuth
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

Odd response since it seems forgotten that the UK ditched Israel back in the late 1960s as a partner in the Chieftain tank due to political pressures from Arab countries. From Israel POV, it was the UK that was the unreliable partner. Especially when the UK then turned around and sold Chieftain tanks to Israel’s enemies.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rokuth
Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  Rokuth

Don’t mention how we’d already shafted them in Suez in ’56.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon

?? We were allies with Israel in Suez operation = secret agreement made to combine forces against Egypt.
US shafted us all – UK, France and Israel – by calling time on our operation.

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Yes, in that one was US.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Rokuth

👍👍

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

German armed forces were resurrected in 1955, so we were NATO allies from 10 years after the War.

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

Maybe it’s Plasan North America Inc. or Plasan US Defence Composite Structures or Plasan Carbon Composites US Inc?

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

What do you think they are going to do, make bad armour? I would be far more concerned about the ELINT equipment they supply to us than composite ship armour. They won’t even be fitting it.

Ron Stateside
Ron Stateside
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim

Indeed. NSO Group’s Pegasus spyware is likely responsible for the compromising of countless politicians. Lindsey Graham anyone???

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  Ron Stateside

Yep and sold to evil people and regimes the World over with little concern for who the end user is or how it’s used. Military equipment manufacturers are by their nature hardly reliable citizens but Israel is about as bad as it gets when money and influence is to be had, not to mention. Russia has been only second to the US as an influencer there. I would avoid them as far as possible though not at putting extra risk on our armed forces. The bigger question mind is what happened to our long promoted lead in creating composite armour?… Read more »

Jon
Jon
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

We’ve been using Plasan armour for some years. For example Scimitar Mk II uses Plasan ceramic armour and it hasn’t been an issue. We were looking to buy the US JLTV and Plasan designed the cab on that. If you mean the Israeli government, they can’t afford to cripple their military export industry.The Americans, who won’t even trust NATO member Turkey with F-35 deliveries, gives Israel unprecedented access to F-35 software. So they are definitely on the side of the West. As far as Argentina and the Falklands goes, Israel uses UK components in its equipment and the UK has… Read more »

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon

👍

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon

As many on this site have counseled, all is fine, as long as HMG’s check (or cheque) clears. 😉😁

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

We recently chucked Elbit off a couple of big sensitive projects…

Explanation was very brief but involved Sovereignty…

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

Yes one has to ask is their sensitivity in upsetting the Russians have anything to do with that change of mind, generated by difficulties when it comes to prospective transferring of stuff to Ukraine. It seems they are rather more casual about insulting and humiliating the US it’s ultimate protector than they are Russia which I would say is because their constituency and influence inside the US allows such latitude in ways Putin and co would never tolerate. However worth noting in light of that what their likely view of the rest of us is even if it’s a contrived… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Spyinthesky
grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

What the heck’s the matter with you? Are you from Palestine?

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

What a stupid reply.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

I think there is some kind of Russian leaning representation in Israeli politics or something like that. I’ve not really looked into it.
What matters to Israel is there survival and doing whatever it takes to achieve that.
They do things I don’t really like with territory etc and they do have some crazies in the country but so do most places.
They do make some nice kit and things like armour don’t really rely on a support package that can be cut off.
Hopefully the world can move to a better place where we can all get along.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Well there is.

In Soviet times Jews were only allowed to work in certain Soviet scientific institutes.

When The Wall came down they exited to Isreal.

There was/is a large, official, setup to enable Jews to leave Russia and come to Israel.

So you get lots of people who are good at maths and sciences….where do they work?

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 year ago

Part of my family are Russian Jews that came to Britain before the Cold War. There is indeed a large Russian supporting caucus in Israeli politics as until this century they were quite unmolested there apart from a brief period between the mid 50’s and mid 60’s when they were useful political scapegoats (which led to many emigrating to the young Israel when it was desperate to attract immigrants). To make staying in the USSR more attractive the Soviet government set up an autonomous region within itself that mirrored Israel. The Russians in Israel tend to be more right wing… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Watcherzero
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

“ Part of my family are Russian Jews”

Part of my family are Ukranian and Polish Jewish (take your pick as the borders have been quite ‘flexible’) so I have some real Iron Curtain insights too!

There was a family Rabbi not that far back….

I’m very pro Jewish but sceptical of Israeli politics.

Last edited 1 year ago by Supportive Bloke
Rob N
Rob N
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon

The Sky Sabre control centre is Israeli an based on Iron Dome. However the radar is Swedish and the missiles are UK.

I do not think buying Israeli armour is an issue. The UK should be prepared to buy what it needs from the world marketplace.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

I suspect if Sky Sabre was ever proposed to be sent to Ukraine permission from Israel would be required and it’s a big question as to whether they would allow it, given their own refusal to supply air defence due in no small part to their own strong reliance on Russian good will and indeed influence, there is at least one former Israeli politician of Russian origin who is actively promoting the Russian message to the World. Indeed despite other systems being given to Ukraine I do note that there hasn’t been even a whisper about a Sky Sabre system… Read more »

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Someone said the uk only has 1 sky sabre system so far and that’s in Poland.

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Isn’t one Sky Sabre in Falklands?

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

France, Ireland, Spain…all a bit dubious at the time. Also pretty much the whole of South America. Not Chile who stuck by us.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

The Chileans are not stupid. They want the right of first refusal of purchase of a flotilla of second-hand, yet serviceable and effective, ASW frigates, in due course, for an attractive price…🤔😳

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

I hope you’re right. Always good to sell kit on. With a T22 and three T23’s already buying again may well make sense.😉

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Almost a guaranteed slam dunk. If Chileans pass, there will be others in the queue. Many will want an ASW frigate; should also be a seller’s market for BAE (T-26) if HMG permits and encourages sales.

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Don’t be ridiculous. There’s no market for T26. Too expensive.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Have you told the RCN and RAN this ?

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

They’re building T26’s under license, not buying them.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Thanks, Captain Obvious. Everyone understands the sales were under license.

.BTW, presume you did not factor in discount for Batch II?

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Maybe get 3 frigates for $2.5b or 5 for $4b. If a foreign navy wanted them. There could also be ways to make them cheaper. Drop the armour, MK 41 launchers, ECM suite reduction etc etc. When compared to other large high end ASW frigates on the market they are reasonably priced.

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Name the last country that bought a $1billion ASW frigate from another country.

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Apparently David Steeper didn’t.

PS there’s no market for T26’s. I challenge you to name one country that would buy. BTW, the UK government would fall over in their rush to approve any such sale.

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

I’d just like to put on record that after careful reading of all your comments on this site in recent days I deeply respect and admire your personal charm and obvious intelligence. 😐😐

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Thank you. Happy New Year 👍

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Really?!? Sorry your perspective is so limited. Envision at least ten plausible candidate navies potentially seeking acquisition of a world-class ASW frigate, half w/in NATO, dependent upon Russian and Chinese submarine force development.

grinch
grinch
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Name them

Nol.
Nol.
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

Strictly business ! Revenue is king now. Alliances built on mutually shared values and friendships are obsolescent. Yes, we can all pay lip service to each other on state visits and summits in front of the media, but it all means nothing anymore. Look at how deftly the US & UK pulled the rug from under our supposed French allies after signing an agreement to supply the Aussies with their brilliant new diesel electric attack boats. Honestly, with friends like us, the world doesn’t really need enemies. I think the Isrealis should be more concerned about our integrity !

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

Hmmm… that is an excellent question, from the perspective of an outside observer. Shall we stipulate that diplomatic relations have been complicated ever since that unpleasant episode at the King David Hotel during the Palestine Mandate? Israel onside during the Suez crisis. Varying degrees of cooperation during multiple wars and conflicts since, partially due to economic (principally petroleum and/or arms sales) considerations. UK has many residual interests w/ multiple states in the region, which have varied relationships w/ Israel. (Usually envision some poor bugger at the Foreign Office dragging out a virtual scale to weigh the balance of options whenever… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

Israel more than on-side during the Suez operation – they were part of it. Secret agreement between UK, France and Israel for combined op on Egypt, 1956. All rather spoiled by President Eisenhower.
No surprise that the Wilson government refused to commit British troops to the US operation in Vietnam a few years later.

dan
dan
1 year ago
Reply to  GR

Israel will always put their own self interests above all else. Perfect example is the war in Ukraine. They’ve done really nothing to aid Ukraine because they don’t want to upset Putin and make things harder for the IAF when they bomb Syria. They helped the Chicoms with their military for decades until America finally put a stop to that by threatening to withhold billions in military kit to them.

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  dan

Ridiculous. Look in the mirror.
If you had an war against Russia occupied France would you risk ballistic missiles and rockets near your door? You got V1 and V2 and it wasn’t nice, now think what would be that today…

And no one helped Chinese more than USA.
And i am not talking about the US Administration support to Mao and Communists in 50’s

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago

I’ve no issue as such buying from Israel.

Just curious whether we have our own provider of such armour?

From a nation that came up with Chobham Armour and in which DSTL has expertise to this day, thought there’d be a home product.

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago

Permali, Daniele, although I’m not sure if they make large ballistic plates. They supply composite armour for the “A” word.😁

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian M.

Hi mate. Permali? Not heard of them, thank you.
You just had to slip it in didn’t you!!

Ian M
Ian M
1 year ago

😁🤣

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago

UK have not made any AFV for a long time. Wiki says last Challenger 2 produced 2002 so +20 years ago.
I think you can expect most industry related to that went away at least top level ones.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

I guess you are not counting Ajax! Because parent company is American or because vehicle is not in service?
Trojan and Titan built after last CR2 was, but still early 2000s.
A really shocking situation that we have not successfully built AFVs in 20 years, or even done major upgrades at the factory to exisiting fleets. The army is in a total mess with AFVs.

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Obviously i am not counting Ajax. 😀
You need an active industry doing stuff continuously otherwise engineers go elsewhere with their knowledge. Also being in tip of the spear and with casualities is what made them develop APS Trophy and Ironfist.
If you are not operating you have at most theoretical improvements. I don’t believe that simulations are really honest. Who fires missiles to say 20 Challengers as a test for their strength and vulnerabilities?

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

Thanks Alex, as a former chartered engineer and REME officer, I certainly agree with you. It does not seem long ago that we had 5 British AFV manufacturers who all produced good kit quite quickly and at reasonable prices. They all truly manufactured and were not just assembly shops. They often developed good PV kit with their own funds.
BAE swallowed them all up, which wasn’t necessarily a problem if only BAE had been given orders to factory upgrade our AFVs over the last 20 years and ultimately replace them.

Coll
Coll
1 year ago

Permali? Composites & Defence Technologies Inc (Manufacturing UK. Turkish, I think) I guess It’s hard to tell unless they mention what level of protection Plasan is providing.

Mark B
Mark B
1 year ago

I suppose sometimes you have to buy the best (assuming that is the issue) and hope that British companies will up their game. That said if the demand for armour is low in the UK at the moment it might be tricky for firms to justify the R&D maybe? .

Coll
Coll
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark B

Maybe this is why they set up ARIA (Link)

Mark B
Mark B
1 year ago
Reply to  Coll

Good point. It will be interesting to see the impact of ARIA over time. In theory it is an excellent method of investing public money.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 year ago
Reply to  Coll

That had slipped by me, interesting that the politicians feel they need to reinvent the wheel. Wilson created the Ministry of Technology in 1964. Heath closed it down in 1970 with the research and development roles being spread around other ministries and gradually being allowed to wither. The last big reduction being the sale of QinetiQ, my old firm… If history does go round I give it less than 10 years… Technology is another area where there needs to be a long term national strategy that goes beyond political party lines – no chance, sadly. Cheers CR PS Happy New… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

There may be a resurgence in R & D in all participating countries under the auspices of AUKUS. Both sponsored university research and private industry activity. Remember there are a number of areas listed in addition to SSN development, to wit: AI, Cyber, Hypersonics (and Counter), Quantum Computing, Underwater ISR, etc. Broad and meaningful areas, spanning activities from research through production, w/ both potential commercial and military applications. Read an article on topic from Stanford University Research Institute. Bottom line assessment was quite positive, given sufficient funding and time. (Unstated subtext–everyone will become wealthy from university commercial spin-offs, ala ‘Son… Read more »

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 year ago

Some armour is better than no armour – these sort of ceramic tiles have a multiple hit capability problem, in that they cannot sustain successive impacts around the original hit without quickly losing much of their protective value. To minimise the effects of this the tiles are made as small as possible, but the matrix elements have a minimal practical thickness of about 25 mm. The end result is armour that is a compromise between weight and effectiveness. In the old days the RN had high-strength steel armour plate maybe 14inches thick, but our battlecruisers still blew up when under… Read more »

Knight7572
Knight7572
1 year ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Yeah remember HMS Invincible, Indefatigable and Queen Mary were victims of dodgy ammo handling practices and Hood was the victim of sheer bad luck

geoff
geoff
1 year ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Admiral Beatty spread the blame more generally when he said 😁“There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today..”

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 year ago
Reply to  geoff

I think the ammo handling procedures are better enforced these days. I have never been a fan of David Beatty or his tactical handling of the ships during the infamous Run to the South

David
David
1 year ago
Reply to  Knight7572

Hood’s armour protection was based on that of the Tiger class battlecruisers, albeit with some modifications. She also never received the additional deck armour that would have been installed during her cancelled modernisation. The basic problem was that she was in essence a first world war battlecruiser, and as such was no match for a modern fast battleship some twenty years her junior.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

What does this new armour protect against – clearly not Anti-Ship missiles or torpedoes?

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

An educated guess would be anti-spall protection in sensitive compartments (like the galley😃)

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

If the ship is able to successfully engage incoming ASM, due to the close range and high speeds debris may well strike the ship. My guess is that the armour would protect the ops room, maybe the vertical launch missile silos or perhaps the deck around the gun

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Modern torpedoes explode under the ship to try and break the back of it.

Part of the design will be to resist that.

Torpedoes penetration detection and blast deflection will be via the fuel and water tank arrangements.

grinch
grinch
1 year ago

(eyes roll) None of this armour will be used for torpedo defence

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

Ummmm where did I say it would be?

grinch
grinch
1 year ago

So your comment is irrelevant rather than incorrect. My bad.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  grinch

If you look up the thread others are commenting about torpedoes.

So it isn’t irrelevant to the thread.

Basically it is refined WWII schemes.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 year ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

The statement “some armour is better than no armour” is not always true. If armour is defeated all it tends to do is break up and disrupt the shell or round and that just allows more energy to be dumped into what you are trying to protect or just helps ensure all the energy is kept in the place you don’t want it. I admit my experience is around people and impacts of penetration, but one of the big factors on how much damage is done is the kinetic energy dump and you work that out using E=1/2 m (Vi2-Vr2)… Read more »

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
1 year ago

Believe NP Aerospace make armour as well.

We also came up with Super Bainite a few years ago that has seen some limited use. Not composite though, steel. Tata bought a licence.

farouk
farouk
1 year ago

I personally don’t have any issues with sourcing anything which will improve the capability of our military, but it does highlight how years of a swords to ploughshares mentality amongst our political elite has degraded our ability to build our own kit. Now whilst I don my tin lid and await the now customary incoming  here’s a picture taken at the latter end of WW2 in the Pacific when HMS Sussex fitted with extra British made waist armour brushed off a kamikaze strike by a Japanese Mitsubishi Ki-51 “Sonia” which resulted in just a 5 inch dent
https://i.postimg.cc/CKqBr8rX/Opera-Snapshot-2023-01-05-150358-www-reddit-com.png

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

Splat!

DH
DH
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian M.

Oi vay, never mind the quality, feel the width, my boy

Ian M
Ian M
1 year ago
Reply to  DH

Plenty of width on that!

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

I have never ever seen that picture before! Damn, looks like the crew painted it on!

Jim
Jim
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

There is a difference between building your own kit and building every component. Even the USA a can’t do anything like that. Ballistic protection on a warship is hardly a strategic capability. Most don’t even have it.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

FFS that is an amazing photo! Not seen that before.

Jon
Jon
1 year ago

I might make it my wallpaper

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 year ago
Reply to  Jon

😆

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 year ago

Happy new year Mate!

Tin Foil Hat Nutjob
Tin Foil Hat Nutjob
1 year ago
Reply to  farouk

That pic is what similar to the one, one would have expected on Pentagon 911…but all there was, was a suspiciously relatively small hole.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago

No issues from me, good kit, decent and experienced supplier with proven track record. But, like many others on here, I think it’s a bit of a sad state of affairs when we are having to buy pretty basic stuff such as armour/composites from an external source when we should be producing this sort of thing ourselves. But this isn’t my area of knowledge so to me, a layman, as long then as it’s good, and does it’s job, no issues from me. Cheers.

Ian M.
Ian M.
1 year ago
Reply to  Airborne

Hi Airborne, we do make it, see my previous post. Maybe not to the size / spec needed though.
cheers

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian M.

Ok mate got it, cheers. Not a glamourise pointy end subject but absolutely essential all the same 👍

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 year ago
Reply to  Airborne

Hi Mate, Hercs and our rotary aircraft use composite armour. Some is Israeli and some is UK made. Much better than the ballistic 10mm steel plate that was used before. The composite stuff on the Chinook easily stops multiple hits from 7.62mm NATO rounds, even stopped a 14.7mm DShK round.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  DaveyB

👍👍👍

Cymbeline
Cymbeline
1 year ago
Reply to  Airborne

https://www.zerohedge.com/user/190979

AB, just found everyones mate on another website only his comments are even more laughable.

Cymbeline
Cymbeline
1 year ago
Reply to  Cymbeline
Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Cymbeline

Troll wanker eh good job mate!

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Cymbeline

Good work. If I was wearing a hat i’d be tipping it right now.

Cymbeline
Cymbeline
1 year ago
Reply to  David Steeper

I’d like to say it was some sort of good detective work, unfortunately its just Google. Just type the name into it and see what comes up.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Cymbeline

Oh dear, Farouk sniffed him out a while back and now you have got him by those tiny bollocks. Conformation he is a full time sad Russkie troll with more than likely a number of bots operating as a group! Sad wankers! Good job mate!

Cymbeline
Cymbeline
1 year ago
Reply to  Airborne

Yeah, you read his stuff and his technical knowledge is very good and he does put a lot of NATO and UK references which makes the casual reader think he is a knowledge person speaking with an element of truth, but it always has a Soviet slant which can put an element of doubt in the readers mind. Good job you, Farouk and others sussed him out. Could he be Russian special Information/Disinformation Unit? Maybe.

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Cymbeline

One of many online Russian trolls infecting the internet with its version of the truth! Utilise someone’s genuine online details fully, or in part, use their history of knowledge, experience and dits, and post with an attempt at legitimately! Twitter is full of those bot wankers, pushing the Russian narrative, either blatantly or with subtlety. Either way in every country there are morons who fall for it! Good on you for making the effort and confirming his troll status! 👍

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 year ago
Reply to  Airborne

Happy new year Mate!

Airborne
Airborne
1 year ago
Reply to  Klonkie

And you mate, all the best!

Expat
Expat
1 year ago

Like the picture, 8 T26 steaming towards you looks quite formidable

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  Expat

If that CGI is ever replicated in real life, should be reasonably assured that someone haa seriously pissed off the RN! 😂😁

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF
1 year ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

…has…🙄

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago
Reply to  Expat

Would have liked it to be “9”…just for a little bit of excess for once… Lol 😁
But 8 will have to do.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 year ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Hope we hear soon what’s going into them MK41s. Also curious if the 6 pack CAMM silos will be able take CAMM-ER if that’s adopted by the RN? Could give the T26 (and T31/32s) a decent increased AAW ability on top of everything else.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 year ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Well it would be a symmetric image then!

geoff
geoff
1 year ago
Reply to  Expat

My favourites are old photos of RN battleships steaming in line in the days of Pax Britannia or Pax Americana

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 year ago
Reply to  geoff

Happy new year Mate!

geoff
geoff
1 year ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Thanks Klonkie and to you my friend! Just got back from a few days in the Berg no comms

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 year ago
Reply to  geoff

lekker man – have a peacefull 2023!

OldSchool
OldSchool
1 year ago

Not sure how accurate the ksmiksze pic is – might be a bit enhanced. But there is an original copy of it at:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C353415

So definitely genuine.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 year ago
Reply to  OldSchool

What this backs up was the documented evidence of how ineffective kamikaze attacks were against armoured warships vs unarmoured warships. The 8 kamikaze attacks that hit British armoured carriers only caused 20 deaths, where as a single attack on one U.S. carrier causes over 300 deaths. But the balance was the British armoured carrier had less effective air wings.

Simon
Simon
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Armoured flight decks, unlike the U.S carriers. However as you say limited the number of aircraft that could be carried

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 year ago

T23 has steel armour around the MTLS and air weapons mag. Thick steel plate and bloody heavy which if you ever had to open the doors over the tubes you would know. Other spaces on other ships have protection.
A lot of it can be for RATTAM protection (Response to Attack Against Ammunition). You don’t want someone shore side in harbour putting a 7.62 or 50 cal bullet into ammunition or magazines that contain stuff that isn’t IM compliant.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 year ago

Off-topic, but very good news nonetheless”

“Germany and the US have agreed to join France in sending armoured fighting vehicles to Ukraine – a move seen as a significant boost to its military’s capability on the battlefield.”

LINK

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 year ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Yes, welcome news: 50 Bradleys and 40 Marders; with lots more where they came from. Anything that goes bang is useful but I’m not sure how the AMX-10s would be used. Good gun but very light.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul.P

AMX-10 RC is a recce vehicle.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Ah! Thx. Sort of an Ajax then?

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul.P

A bit better than that😂😂😂
The french are replacing the AMX10 with the Jaguar wheeled vehicle with the 40mm CTA cannon.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 year ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

So give or take the 40mm CTA
Jaguar looks like a sort of economy model Boxer.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Virtually no similarity. AMX-10RC is wheeled (6 wheeler), is very old (designed in 1970, fielded from 1981), is light-ish at 16 tonnes and has a dual role as a Tank Destroyer!! It sports a 105mm tank cannon.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Same as Scimitar then?

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Errrr no.

Scimitar –
role – armoured recce only
weight – 8 tonnes
propulsion – tracks
armament – 30mm cannon

AMX-10RC –
role – armoured recce AND Tank Destroyer
weight – 16 tonnes
propulsion – wheeled
armament – 105mm tank cannon.

Tom
Tom
1 year ago

So there is no British company who can produce this armour?

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom

Same weight performance ratio? probably not in this class.
Put in the box of advantages of not being shot everyday with war level calibres.

Last edited 1 year ago by AlexS
Jonathan
Jonathan
1 year ago
Reply to  AlexS

Necessity is the mother of invention.

AlexS
AlexS
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Indeed.
They don’t have the dolce fare niente of having newspapers filled by days with a prince mental breakdown.

Last edited 1 year ago by AlexS
Oleg Olkha
Oleg Olkha
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom

https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/56923Plasan Sasa, an Israeli manufacturer of survivability solutions for land, air and naval platforms for the defense and military market, announced this week they have signed a contract with BAE Systems Australia to armour the first three Hunter class frigates for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN)” As may be expected…