F-35 jets have once again landed onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth ahead of training exercises before the warship and her Carrier Strike Group deploy.
Our jets have arrived! The Dambusters are here in their latest aircraft, demonstrating their capability to deliver on operations as we prepare for #CSG23. #KingsFlagship #GlobalModernReady pic.twitter.com/AkzCV6lNrt
— HMS Queen Elizabeth (@HMSQNLZ) July 13, 2023
HMS Queen Elizabeth recently sailed for trials ahead of a Carrier Strike Group deployment later this year.
The Royal Navy say here that “Carrier Strike offers Britain choice and flexibility on the global stage; it reassures our friends and allies and presents a powerful deterrent to would-be adversaries. Protected by a ring of advanced ships, submarines and helicopters, and equipped with fifth generation fighters, HMS Queen Elizabeth is able to strike from the sea at a time and place of our choosing; and with our NATO allies at our side, we will be ready to fight and win in the most demanding circumstances.”
HMS Queen Elizabeth also announced on Twitter that the first female Flight Deck Officer (FDO) on a Queen Elizabeth (QE) Class carrier has overseen the landing of the first batch of aircraft in preparation for the upcoming deployment.
The tweet from the HMS Queen Elizabeth account stated:
“The first female FDO on a QE Class carrier has brought on the first of our aircraft as we make preparations to sail. Flying jets and helos, the next two weeks will prove our Carrier Strike capability as we prepare for our #CSG23 deployment.”
This historic milestone highlights the ongoing diversification in roles within the Royal Navy. Over the next two weeks, the female FDO will be responsible for coordinating the launching and landing of various aircrafts, including jets and helicopters, as part of the readiness training for the #CSG23 Carrier Strike Group deployment.
Sick to death with all this pandering to “Diversity” very few people in uniform give a toss on the colour, gender ,relgion, or even sexuality of a person selected for a job. What they do care about is if that person can do it and as we are seeing time and time and time again, those selected with a cultural agenda in mind fail when the going gets tough.
You have hit the nail on the head.
I see your relentless crusade against diversity continues. Why does it bother you so much?
I think it’s fairly easy to understand why it bothers him, he’s clearly explained it.
Net wrote:
Appears my reply bothered you even more.
Well I can always depend on you banging on about it so I was curious to understand why. If you don’t want to answer that’s fine too.
If you have to ask that question, therein lies the answer. It’s actually quite insulting to this young lady to make such an issue of her gender when she won the job on her merit, not her gender.
How many women held the position previously? Considering how massive the recruitment problem is for the UK military, isn’t it fair to play this up as much as possible to appeal to a wider potential recruiting pool?
If you can’t read Netking there is nothing it can’t be done.
I read well thank you. I see understanding larger underlying concepts and ideas might be an issue for you though.
Its not diversity that is the issue. That is to be lauded. It is the relentless virtue signalling.
I can see your point about virtue signaling and many minorities find it just as annoying. Diversity however is still a problem to many and the idea that a minority could be just as, or even more qualified is something inconceivable to them.
Absolutely! Most frustrating is that somebody is being paid fo come up with this crap, week in, week out.
The fact such a big thing is made about a female being in the position is the exact opposite of being diverse and equal!
She should just be the FDO, nothing more or less than any other FDO that came before or will come after, that’s what diversity and equality truly is.
Not this PR stunt bull shit that screams out she is something out of the ordinary.
“The fact such a big thing is made about a female being in the position is the exact opposite of being diverse and equal!”
How many times have a female been in this position before. This that rarely happen are usually celebrated. Why is celebrating this so offensive to some?
Because it marks them out as being different! The polar opposite of what equality should!
Exactly right! 👍
If Farouk has a similar view to mine it’s the hypocrisy of the whole LGBT/woke/trans argument that annoys him. Not the people. Whoever is best for the job should get it, full stop.
“Whoever is best for the job should get it, full stop.”
I think this is the ideal for any sensible person or organization. Unfortunately this is aspirational and not the case currently regardless of ethnicity or gender.
So what do you suggest can be done to improve the situation?. Life is awkward. Someone wins a race, someone comes second; someone gets a job, someone doesn’t. 🤔
Why is it a relentless campaign against diversity – Didn’t he just say in his opinion nobody really cares about diversity its just whether they can do the job …or not as the case may be.
Surely first & foremost you want our armed forces to be full of the best people to do the job and not what boxes they tick.
Its not like we are talking about x-factor, or football or anything else not particularly important.
.
Because people get injured or die if the choice of people for a difficult task is based on vague diversity quotas, rather the best talent for the job.The fact that they are pushing this suggests the choice of her was more about political brownie points, than capability
Exactly a safe pair of hands that has got your military back – the rest is window dressing.
Promotion on ability and competence please.
“Promotion on ability and competence please”
When has this ever been true, regardless of ethnicity or gender?
Net wrote: “”Promotion on ability and competence please” When has this ever been true, regardless of ethnicity or gender?”” Report writing changed around 20 years ago, with the introduction of the OJAR and SJAR which required 6 monthly appraisals to back them up where O grades were binned and people in line for promotion had to have the requisite courses under their belt. At a stroke this put to an end favouritism and the promotion of weak candidates simply in which to get them posted out of the unit and pushed onto somebody else. All that good work was… Read more »
You might have to explain that remark. Do you have evidence that promotion boards are rigged?
It is the way I tell them: you see?
Aircraft Handlers mantra, “safe in these hands” (nostrils in manibus Tuti. 👍👏And obviously the Lady’s qualified.
Nostrus. Ooops
So true Farouk ticking a box for the sake of an ESG score doesn’t count for shxx when it hits the fan the average Fod plodder couldn’t give a toss unless the FDO is seen as incompetent at their job and puts Deckhands and Aircraft in danger
Well it’s the first female FDO so I’m hoping that’s the only reason for the announcement.
If this gets announced every time a non white male does something then it will appear the diversity nuts have taken over the asylum
I recently applied for a job with a leading American aerospace manufacturer. A friend of mine is a manager at the same department. I was told a week before my interview some top exec had mentioned there were too many middle aged white people in the position I was applying for. I was told that the job had been offered to a ‘trans’ person. I have absolutely no problem with any race, gender etc. provided they were the best person for that job; However, I cannot help but think I was a victim of ageism, sexism and racism. Positive discrimination… Read more »
I once went around to a local company with CV in hand and best bib and tucker on. Trouble is when I got there I found there were steps up to the front door and being disabled that presented me with a problem. I ended up having to get on all fours to get up the step to knock on the door to deliver my CV. They happened to be interviewing at the time, so gave me an interview there an then to their credit, but I still didn’t get the job. The building was listed so I think my… Read more »
Now I think i know where your name tag comes from. Top posting as always “CR”! Can’t be easy. My elderly mother is in a wheel chair too, can’t walk and can’t even use her wheelchair either. But has had a long life. We take a lot for granted. It’s all very sobering. Regards to ol’Blighty 🇬🇧 from 🇦🇺!
Oh mate. So true. In my job one has to climb stairs to even get into the building. With so many legacy buildings around though the costs to convert all must be astronomical?
Not sure what point you’re making. Are you comparing yourself to people of different sexual persuasions or people of different race? My brother is physically disabled, a trans person or a person of race is not. I can’t see the comparison relating to my post which relates to able bodied people.
You could sue David A.
I’m not the type to do so. Anyway, my point is that we are now in a situation of extreme positive discrimination which has become discrimination by another name.
It’s not pandering. They’re trying to get the best people, and you do that in part by showing people of all backgrounds that it’s a job that is open to people like them.
It’s not an accident that most of the powerful jobs in this country are generally held by white men – and it’s not because they’re more capable, or better suited, or necessarily because women wouldn’t be interested.
Phil wrote: “”It’s not an accident that most of the powerful jobs in this country are generally held by white men – and it’s not because they’re more capable, or better suited, or necessarily because women wouldn’t be interested.” The UK has an Asian Prime Minister and has had 3 female PMs It has a black female Home Secretary, the second NW female in that position and the fifth female to do so The Secretaries of State for: Culture, Media and Sport, to the Treasury, International Development, Minister without Portfolio for Education Northern Ireland International Trade Environment, Food and Rural… Read more »
My main source of Information for the above:
Nice job cherry picking the times when you claim minorities didn’t meet some standard. Did you make note of the ones doing an exemplary job in the other cases and would you mind documenting those? Did you make a list of what we see in the news everyday of white men totally screwing up at something?
Well said!
They announce these things because outside of the Force’s it is something that might inspire somebody to join up. Men and Women. 👍
“They announce these things because outside of the Force’s it is something that might inspire somebody to join up”
Thank you. Exactly the point I was making. This should be considered progress and an opportunity to appeal to a larger recruiting pool. But some people are showing their true mindset when the promotion of a female in this position makes them uncomfortable.
Yo netprat, another first for QE. Get over it. 😱
No if you take some time to look at it from the proper perspective, I think you are part of the group that should “Get over it”. 😉
Yo netprat, having cracked out 25 years in the RN., the greater part of the 70,80,90’s, wrens into sailors, triggers to buttons, carriers, piston aircraft fixed&rotary, fast jets (FAA), working with many forms of prats and their points of dubious views, I say simply, Get over it!
👏
All lovely, but I can tell you’re not looking forward to the future with any optimism. To you I say simply, get over it!! 😂
Yo netprat, did you by chance, as you have the hump with regular/ex forces, ever been refused to serve the Crown or your record stuck.?? 😳
I think that might have been a more recent thing as there were reportedly 60 women on HMS Victory at Trafalgar. Surprised me too when I read it on a plaque nect to the great ship last time I visited the Historic Dock Yard. They apparently served as powder monkeys along side the children… They were not officially part of the crew, but were married to members of the crew and effectively served as part of the crew. Link.
Cheers CR
Yes, recall same. Other nationalities and races also well represented in age of sail. Practical crewing solution at time. Just as likely mention of FDO here less to do with ‘diversity politics’ and more to encourage wider recruitment base; so same objective as in the past
I fully agree mate. The first female officer in REME was always seated next to the General who was guest of honour at dinner nights. She was interviewed by the Press from her home town. She hated that sort of attention, just wanted to do her job. She left the Corps in the end, when it got too much and the attention had become too ridiculous.
I’n the Drive, Warzone, I’ve read of plans to deploy F35s to “bare bases” in the UK and Typhoon’s to highways, probably in Finland to start with as they do that regularly and we have not since the Cold War. Kinloss is a suggested and obvious location do to the co location of 39RE. 12 dets of 4 Typhoon each are also planned, dispersed around the UK, though how we would have the personnel to arm, fuel and defend so many locations if it went hot I’m unsure. It’s also noted that SHORAD for such locations is non existent since… Read more »
Frost will be along soon Daniele, “all very interesting comrade Mandelli, you don’t happen to have what 3 words location for these dispersed operations do you????”
Only interested, that’s all 🤣🤣
Wouldn’t help Mad Vlad’s scrap heap challenge systems……probably find their wonder missiles are guided by a domestic satnav connected to a washing machine programmer…..they haven’t worked out what to do in the terminal phase…..when it gets to the spin cycle…..
Chances of hitting the right country – LOW
Chances of hitting the right county – NIL
Probability of hitting a target within 500m…..incalculable
🤣🤣🤣🤣😂 biggest laugh I’ve had all day SB
Russian air force spokes person’s reply. Aka Frost62 and Johnski’s Mad Vlad lovin buddies. “How dare you comrade Unsupportive bloke. The mighty Russian air force deliberately bombed one of our own cities in mother Russia as a key stage in a civil defence and disaster relief operation. Unless we cause a disaster by bombing ourselves 50 miles away from Ukraine. How do you expect the mighty Russian air force to be proficient in a war with the weakling Westerners? The brave Russian emergency services and civilians of Belgorod requested a bombing run to test their emergency response capabilities. Besides the… Read more »
I think Major General PopOfSki has popped out of a 6th floor window to test his flying skills…..?
Well, we do have plenty of options mate, if it came to it. But if I can know the likely places and what airfields have the relevant supporting infrastructure I’m sure Russia will. They won’t be hiding in barns!
It’s certainly interesting, I remember one of the last times dispersed operations were practiced in the UK, Harrier GR7’s at RAF Kemble, just before the MOD sold the airfield in the early 90’s.
I missed that mate. I believe they ( USAF ) tried it on the A1M too?
I think they did mate, wonder if there are any pics out there….
The RAF did as well with Jaguars and Tornadoes
Assume you mean dispersed. Yes, the Coltishall Wing was meant for NATO flank I think. Don’t remember Tornado dispersed myself beyond F3s at Stornoway but yes must have happened.
With 7 Sqns at Bruggen and Laarbruch, or was it 8, I worried at the time how long those stations would last despite hardening, AD, and the RE ADR teams. Though one GR1 pilot I met at Farnborough said his Sqn didn’t expect to return or if they did, to a relocation airfield as B and L must have been priority targets.
I do wonder is some of the concrete section motorways were constructed that way to allow them to be repurposed. In a lot of cases the concrete is still there under the tarmac such as on the original bit of the M40 that goes to Oxford. The original bit of the M11 is concrete too underneath. It would be pretty obvious as they would be straight sections with no bridges over the carriageways for 2x runway length. There would also have to be somewhere semi protected for fuel and munitions to be stored as well as some nearby accommodation which… Read more »
Yes, the A1M is my candidate for this, I forget where I heard the story.
Motorway landing and take off was part of TTW planning in the 60ts and 70ts if bases had been taken out, The Transition Too War , would have put motorways out of bounds too Civilian traffic , and supposedly for the use of military vehicles and aircraft ,a Jaguar fighter jet was used too test the possibility of emergency runway landing and take off
I was aware of that.
However, I think this element of planning was dropped when Tornado was introduced as it was ‘too complicated’ to maintain in the field….
Thanks SB , service stations , as Aprons, was thought of as well but as you stated The Tornado would have required a full workshop fit out , for maintenance, .I would of thought that motorway landing was a stopgap whilst Airfields could be repaired if damage through enemy action ?
Yep, fervently but uselessly chased by panda cop cars for speed infactions. 🐼👮🤣🚀
Usual pulling over offence sratbelts brake lights, and obstructed numberplate DM
Yep, had to call International Rescue. 😁
😄😄
But it did, Andy. No 3 and 4 Sqns RAF, based at Gutersloh dispersed into the German forests regularly. No 1 Sqn at Wittering didn’t as it was earmarked for ACE MF so would possibly have moved to NATOs flank rather than remained in the UK, as would have the Jaguars.
Daniele wrote:
“”But it did, Andy. No 3 and 4 Sqns RAF, based at Gutersloh dispersed into the German forests regularly””
That was why 10 Sqn RE was based at Mansergh Barracks also in Gutersloh under their remit for Harrier support. We once (not 10 Sqn) carried out a load of training on building harrier hides entailed a lot of metal planks, we also had a huge black rubber mat for Helicopters to land on
Precisely.
Ahh the plan of how the RAF is going to grow the number of typhoon squadrons. 4 aircraft in each.
That’s been mooted before!!! To have flights with Sqn number plates to resurrect famous Sqns!!
The RAF plans to disperse its fighters is an acknowledgement its 3 fighter bases are vulnerable to Russian attack. An idea would be to disperse its F35B to the carriers, at least giving the flat tops a function.
No.. it’s called training and evaluation. Something that your third world Russian air force would know nothing about.
It’s an acknowledgment that any base, any time anywhere is vulnerable to any attack by any aggressor not just the Russian clowns! Sigh!
It’s another fortunate positive (for the west) of Putins disastrous attempt at invading Ukraine, and one of the many many positives for NATO of his illegal invasion. Ukrainians are taking it on the chin, dealing death and destruction to the Russians, and all the while NATO gets stronger and more aware of its previous neglect, and Russia gets weaker!
Well with all the moans about the QEC and supposed lack of point defence weapons, they are already the best defended airfields we possess.
But your snipe there was at the end wasn’t it. “function” As you know full well they have a function already, with or without aircraft. They give the UK options most others lack, as demonstrated in 2021.
Talking of point defence weapons here is a close up of a Russian TOR in action
That is amazing to see.
I think the most amazing thing is the donkeys multi million dollar air Defense system can shoot down a $600 quad copter. 😀
They have recognised since the battle of Britain days that fixed airbases are vulnerable. Why do think we invented the Harrier? Conventional jets practiced dispersion decades ago at the height of the cold War. On one occasion the ability of Jaguar to use a section of motorway was tested though ultimately probably not a real prospect of actual use.
Have you not read up on history Frostski?
Ps… the f35s are currently embarked on a carrier, to go to sea, without a tug boat. Imagine that, a carrier that can power itself. A wonder of the world.
Aha, 01’s mate 🙄
Did you just mention “shorad” being “non existent” for years? Hopefully some actual necessity might change the thinking on that.
I think we need to double down on our large airbase strategy because affording a dispersed system just results in less planes more cost, the reality is front line countries like Finland probably need dispersal, countries in the rear like the UK and US don’t, that being said we are vulnerable to cruise launched missiles from submarines, everyone of our airbases should have a permanent CAMM based air Defense system at a minimum.
The UK should look to Israel. Similarly sized airforce, similar number of airbase, qnd a tiny land mass to operate it all from like the UK. It achieves a successful air defence umbrella using the Iron Dome and David’s Sling Sam systems. Russia on the other hand has a vast land mass to hide its fighters, and has been practicing dipersal for decades. Also all it’s Sam systems are highly mobile, and it’s jet fighters are designed to operate from remote bases for long periods.
True, though only so many places they can hide them unless they want them totally non effective. And Russia do not have the vast number of airbases intact with supporting assets compared to the Soviet Union. That, at least, is the conclusion of a website that tracks Russian airfields. Historically, you must surely know the old VPVO was located to protect the motherlands key targets, which are overwhelmingly around the Moscow Bastion, eastwards in the central belt to the Urals and Novosibirsk, in the Kola and around Arkangelsk, and on the Black Sea. All within range of NATO and especially… Read more »
Apologies on spellings of those places, no doubt incorrect.
I agree regards CAAM. I used to try to see the MoDs PoV, but I’ve changed my mind.
Dispersed sites flying happened all the time in RAFG.
As you can identify as you please these days does anyone really know what it was that supervised the landings of those planes ?Pity it was not a darker skinned tranvestite then the navy would have ticked all the boxes. I bet Putin’s biting the back of his clinched fist right now. Thinking why did I attack Ukraine when I could have attacked the UK. Now that would have been over in a fortnight. The US left saying we could have done something, should have done something, but it’s too late now, and we can’t risk WW3 ! I hope… Read more »
Article describes how someone qualified and capable of fulfilling the FDO role just happens to be female. You go absolutely off the rails in response rather than just being thankful there’s someone doing the role or discussing the deployment or outcomes or whatever.
Would suggest that the simple fact a woman FDO triggers you shows perhaps you are closer to the snowflakes against whom you no doubt rail than you might like. Get over it, basically.
It is not it just happens; It was announced. The annoucement did not say what is the professional story of that person, what she achieved. It only said she is a woman like if that was the most important thing for the job.
Article doesn’t say how many jets are being deployed. We are up I think to 32 in total now, including 3 in the OEU in the USA. So 16 front-line would be about the max available.
Doubt they would all go off on the carrier, but maybe 10-12? Any more info?
Think it’s only a couple for trials ahead of the carrier group deployment in the autumn.
When it comes to the actual deployment i’d be surprised if it was more than 8-10 jets.
Uncertain whether USMC will supply a squadron to QNLZ for summer cruise in the Med, largely a NATO ‘lake.’ On the other hand, it would be valuable integrated training. 🤔
Presume that Naval Air Station Pautuxent River (NAS Pax River) will be able to supply sufficient a/c, pilots ground crew, etc., to support RN trials aboard PWLS during the autumn. 🤞
…Patuxent…🙄
So whats the timeline now then? Has the 48 and 2 full squadrons by 2023 fallen by the wayside?
Bear in mind that even now the USN only deploys a maximum of 12 F35Bs onto an America class. That’s when they are using it as a “lightning carrier”.
So the QE with 12 F35Bs onboard is still a reasonable capability. If we could pan the numbers out with some US marines, Italian F35Bs that would be great. Would love to see more than 24 aircraft onboard for at least part of CSG24
OT, the reason behind the MOD allocating £20 million for a rear view camera (with wiper) For the Warrior has been revealed
That’s a Big Bang, stick to the road.
Mines and artillery appear to be the main items causing the most death and destruction in Ukraine.
I have it on good authority that “Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition”!
So having a coffee and looking at the photos on the above tweet
https://i.postimg.cc/85GhrYwk/Untitled-1.jpg
and I didnt know that:
Yeah, the F-35 has a quite a few doors on it. I used to call it the flying door.
The RAF pilots have clearly mastered the technique of the ski-jump launch. Note that the one in Georges’ pic did not dive over the edge and into the drink. The F35B is an amazing warplane.
The big flap at the front is for the lift fan, the two smaller flaps behind give extra airflow to the engine to make up for the slower forward speed.
Cheers
Yes, why are there 2 sets of fan doors on the upper side?
The big ‘bonnet’ was an afterthought as they were having turbulence at the lift fan. Must raise the EGT as the engine will be working harder to overcome the drag increase and a shorter engine TBO. I can only hope they eventually modify this in future trances.
No word of the US Marines joining in on CSG23 as they did in ’21, so one is left wondering how many F-35s we can cobble together for the deployment this time around? Irony was that the US had 10 F-35s on our carrier two years ago and we could only muster 8. Hopefully we have received a few more since then. To be fair, I understand the number of qualified F-35 pilots – or lack thereof – that we have available could also be a limiting factor. Not knocking the RN but is it me or is it every… Read more »
We are threadbare in terms of escorts(16 or 17 max), H-K subs(6 to 8 max) & heavy stores/munitions ships(1 on a good day). Tankers we’ve just about enoungh of, a few more F35Bs than last time, but numbers improving slowly. 2 big carriers are great but limited by escort, resupply & F35B numbers. POW should be operational sometime late autumn after getting her prop shaft fixed.
Not a nadir we should ever have let happen, but this is where we are.
Alas Frank, you are correct my friend. It’s a national disgrace that government after government have raided the defence ‘kitty’ for decades now and left our Armed Forces just so hollowed out. Even when it comes to Armed Forces pay raises, Sunak wouldn’t pony up the money from HM Treasury – he’s making the MoD pay for it from their budget. It makes me wish Truss had survived in office longer than she did. For all her faults, she took defence seriously and committed us to spending 3% of GDP – how different would our Armed Forces look if 3%… Read more »
Interesting that Ben Wallace frequently comments that Defence was hollowed out when he was serving – yet we had a Corps of four divisions, large force in NI etc – and strong RN and RAF at the time.
Defence really is hollowed out today.
We dropped carrier operations for 10 years – Tory decision. We have had to rebuild it from scratch.
The inaugural CSG deployment in 2021 was pretty impressive but the problem is we have very little depth of capability. RFA Fort Vic is a potential single point of failure and scraping together enough aircraft, escorts and an SSN strains the entire fleet cycle well beyond the CSG operations and leaves very little held back to react to the unexpected. Rebuilding frigate numbers, getting FSS into service and building up the F35 fleet will all potentially help but it’s all still a ways off and right now it does sadly feel like a bit of a hollowed out force /… Read more »
All good stuff. Leonardo progresses Excalibur with second 757 airframe acquired for flight-testing14 JULY 2023 by Gareth Jennings “Leonardo has acquired a second aircraft (tail number G-POWH 3) for conversion into the Excalibur FTA (new tail number is G-FTAI). (Leonardo) Leonardo has acquired a second 757 airframe for its Excalibur Flight Test Aircraft (FTA) project to de-risk the Tempest future fighter that the United Kingdom is developing for the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) with Italy and Japan. The sensor lead for the Team Tempest industrial group announced the development at the Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) at Royal… Read more »
Pretty sure that 757 have been acquired by 2Excel to run and modify for the testing.
Cheers!
No worries. From what I have read, one out of the two 757s will be used to bring the other to flight testing standard.
More than 8 fighters on this aircraft carrier this time?
Seriously, how many F35Bs are available in the UK?
Has the last loss been replaced (ordered)?
We have 32 at present, although 3 are in the US and early models so not really usable. All 48 of the original order will be delivered by 2025. The lost aircraft is to be replaced as part of a follow on order of 26, although no contracts have been agreed so who knows when or if that will happen. We won’t find out for a few years.
Any idea when the FAA will get its unit. F35 appears to be an all RAF thing at the moment. Not so much a joint force as the RAF do carriers…
I think all UK F35 airframes are owned by the RAF. It would be good to see the RN having permanently allocated FAA F35.
It’s not. Lightning force is entirely joint, it just so happens that the initial Sqn numbers are RAF. 617 is roughly 60:40 RAF:FAA both pilots and engineers. The first FAA numbered Sqn (809?) will be the other way round.