Defence Secretary Grant Shapps MP has thanked the crew of HMS Diamond for their heroic service in the Red Sea.

“Yesterday saw the largest attack on a Royal Navy warship in decades. I’d like to thank the crew of HMS Diamond for their heroic service in the Red Sea, as they continue to defend innocent lives and global trade from these intolerable Houthi attacks.

The successful destruction of seven incoming attack drones was a powerful demonstration of the expertise, bravery and leadership of all sailors aboard and an undeniable display of the importance of the entire Royal Navy in keeping Britain safe from growing threats.”

The Iranian-backed Houthi faction launched unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and missiles targeting international shipping lanes frequented by merchant vessels.

The unified action comprised HMS Diamond, the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69), USS Gravely (DDG 107), USS Laboon (DDG 58), and USS Mason (DDG 87), resulting in the downing of eighteen UAVs, two anti-ship cruise missiles, and one anti-ship ballistic missile, with air support from F/A-18s embarked on the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower.

U.S. Central Command said:

“On Jan. 9, at approximately 9:15 p.m. (Sanaa time), Iranian-backed Houthis launched a complex attack of Iranian designed one-way attack UAVs (OWA UAVs), anti-ship cruise missiles, and an anti-ship ballistic missile from Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen into the Southern Red Sea, towards international shipping lanes where dozens of merchant vessels were transiting.

Eighteen OWA UAVs, two anti-ship cruise missiles, and one anti-ship ballistic missile were shot down by a combined effort of F/A-18s from USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69), USS Gravely (DDG 107), USS Laboon (DDG 58), USS Mason (DDG 87), and the United Kingdom’s HMS Diamond (D34). This is the 26th Houthi attack on commercial shipping lanes in the Red Sea since Nov. 19. There were no injuries or damage reported.

On Jan. 3, 14 countries, including the U.S., issued a joint statement stating, “The Houthis will bear the responsibility for the consequences should they continue to threaten lives, the global economy, or the free flow of commerce in the region’s critical waterways.”

This isn’t new for HMS Diamond, the warship had previously downed a Houthi attack drone fired at merchant shopping.

This comes after British owned vessels were attacked with drones launched by Houthi militants in Yemen. Recently, shipping firms Hapag-Lloyd and Maersk announced a suspension of all container shipments through the Red Sea until further notice amid Houthi attacks on commercial vessels.

British warship shoots down attack drone

Avatar photo
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

189 Comments
oldest
newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Mike Gill
Mike Gill
2 months ago

All warships perform as best they can within the limits of their weapons/defensive aids. however it is only one ship and can only stay on station and closed for action for a finite time. She will need refuelling. We haven’t deployed a tanker so we are dependant on allies or she heads for port. A single ship is not able to cover this. Even the eventual arrival of another type 23 into the area would allow Diamond to replenish her munitions etc but would not be as capable as a type 45. The answer is another type 45 but do… Read more »

Blessed
Blessed
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Gill

The decision to have only six may come to bite us in the arse although with personnel numbers where they are would having anymore do any good?

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
2 months ago
Reply to  Blessed

I think it’s Chicken and Egg ! Which came 1st ? The lack of ships increases the usage of the available ships and crews, that increases discontent and drives resignations. The lack of crews reduces the number of ships that can be crewed and that again drives folks leaving. So if we had kept the 16 T23’s and built 8 T45’s the load would have been shared around and lessoned. So the Defence cuts are indirectly driving shortages across all 3 services and the £¥€{ing Politicians then have an excuse to cut more kit on the grounds of insufficient personnel.… Read more »

George
George
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Very well said. You realise that between us in very few words. We have described the problem our armed forces face. Identified what caused it and thereby suggested what needs to be reversed to fix it. So why can’t HM Gov not do the same?
Why didn’t the civil service see this coming decades ago and do the bleeding obvious to correct things?
Answer, they didn’t want to!!!

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
2 months ago
Reply to  George

Based on the people I know that work in the civil service, they were sat in their offices spinning around on desk chairs and twiddling their thumbs before clocking off at 3pm. The most deeply incompetent institution in this country is the civil service, and it’s up against some stiff competition

nicholas
nicholas
2 months ago

Do you include the 150000 service personnel working in the MoD?

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
2 months ago
Reply to  nicholas

No. Just the civil servants. Demonstrably poor at everything they do, could never compete in the private sector so leech off the public teat

Something Different
Something Different
2 months ago

I think that characterisation of civil servants is completely unwarranted and does not reflect the service at least nowadays. Do you have any direct experience of working in the civil service? Have you ever worked in any complex and/or large organisation particularly at a senior level and office based? If so you would realise there are many people working well beyond their contracted hours trying to keep the lights on. The military does not acquire new kit, pay salaries, build and maintain bases and perform R & D by magic. And no, uniformed personnel may not be a suitable substitute… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Completely agree.

Frank62
Frank62
2 months ago
Reply to  George

Too many of our leaders have sucked up to China & Russia, courting their money, taking donations, while dismantling & running our defences into the ground.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank62

Yes indeed. They all took in the end of history rubbish and for some reason though the west had won.

Ian
Ian
2 months ago
Reply to  George

What do you expect them to do if HMT won’t make the funding available? In the end it’s down to ministerial decisions- CS can only advise. Defence spending was >5% of GDP in the 80s. Now it’s <2.5%, so do you think MOD CS have been actively supporting having their budgets endlessly cut in real terms to pay for runaway health and social spending? They have not.

monkey spanker
monkey spanker
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian

It’s just above 2% this coming year and it’s only that level after the nuclear deterrent, pensions and other things that didn’t used to be in the budget were added. That accounts for around 20% of the budget I think. Don’t quote me on that figure

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  monkey spanker

So the true defence budget is actually around 1.6% which is frankly ridiculous when you consider the extremely dangerous international security situation. The government are asleep at the wheel. Instead of panicking because the BBC has made them look incompetent prosecuting a load of ex Royal mail post masters (which was disgusting and not something I condon) they should have been pulling all the programme and project leads in giving them a dressing down. Call all the defence industrial companies into an emergency meeting. Tell them what they need and by when and get them to get the job done.… Read more »

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

It was ITV not the Beeb. They wouldn’t have dared to make that drama as it involves another Publicly funded gravy Train.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

umm the post office is a private company.

SteveP
SteveP
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No it isn’t. Royal Mail was privatised. The Post Office remains nationalised and was owned by the governments (Labour, coalition and Conservative) throughout the Horizon scandal.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  SteveP

Well I did not know that.

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Times article today on this attack included a quote from Shapps that he would fight for 3% defence budgets. If he means it, good on him, but I fear that we will be met with an “I did my best”, then Healey from Labour, who actually seems to care about defence, “somehow” finds the money

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

I’m not sure if Healey is that committed, he is not an individual with any history of defence or foreign office expertise or experience. I’m pretty sure that Labour has a far greater will around rebuilding the nation and that will include investment in defence…this Conservative Party I don’t think they have any belief in anything.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I would go further..we are in as much or greater peril now as we were at the hight of the Cold War and our defence budge in the 70s and early 80s was 5.4 to 5.9% of GDP..every indication we have is that we are potentially running headlong into a world war…we come from a far lower base than we did in the Cole war as well…the end of history has lulled us into profound complacency that should have ended around a decade ago.

monkey spanker
monkey spanker
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Government is doing constant fire fighting with a limited amount of hoses. Only once a situation gets out of control do they try to hose it down so it goes away. They commit to spend more money than comes in repeatedly but don’t really care as that’s some future leaders problem.

Pete ( the original from years ago)
Pete ( the original from years ago)
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Spot on. I would add scrimping on certain capabilities on each vessel possibly leaves the crews feeling more exposed as threats mount compounding the retention spiral.

For example, +/- 48 nations now operating attack summaries of various capabilities spread across the globe. How many RN escorts are adequately equiped to mitigate such threats, especially when operating alone in littoral environments

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Absolutely.
Doh! Oh, Dear! …………………………which will bring you back to Doh!

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Indeed.

Rob N
Rob N
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

I suspect if we paid are military better we would not have such a problem. More sailors more crews more active ships….

George
George
2 months ago
Reply to  Blessed

The so-called recruiting crisis is deliberate. If government wanted, they could have ques at recruiting stations waiting for the doors to open. The truth is, it makes cutting back defence spending that much easier if they blame recruiting.

Redshift
Redshift
2 months ago
Reply to  George

Nothing that this government does is deliberate, they aren’t competent enough for that.

George
George
2 months ago
Reply to  Redshift

I agree with you but the problem is not with the transient workforce of elected plebs. Let’s be honest here. Their only interest is re-election and buying votes with handouts. The problem is the civil servants and the “advice” given. They spend decades in the departments and should constantly have the national interest/long game in mind. “But minister, the primary duty of HM Gov is defence of the realm, so think of the consequences ten or twenty years ahead.” Strange how the alleged peace dividend coincided with the alleged recruiting problem. All the usual excuses are rolled out. Oh the… Read more »

Expat
Expat
2 months ago
Reply to  George

Agree they have design a system where is more rewarding to live of the state than join the services.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Blessed

I recently read that to crew all of the navy’s ships and s/m require just over 7,000 personnel (not considering any double crewing here). The Navy has 29,000 regular personnel plus some reservists. Time to rethink how it uses those 29,000 personnel to close out some warship under-manning?

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Well back in late November early December, there was an article about Faslane – iirc, 5,000+ are based there. Royals are circa 6 – 7,000 (Hence, the Navy transferred PIDs from Royal to RN) Barrow-in-Furness, with 5, 6(?) subs under build has a healthy number of Royal Navy The same will be for the T26 and T31 yards. Devonport and Plymouth will have shore based matelots. Not sure it will be 5,000 a piece, but, a healthy number for the surface fleets. Was it Deep or Gunbuster related their experiences of moving ship – 6 months+ Take into account that… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Thanks David. I was not suggesting that there are not key navy jobs to be done ashore, in the UK or abroad. It is a matter of priorities for the Admiralty as to which posts are left unmanned and which are filled, in the light of being understrength. I would have thought that priority would go to manning ships. Perhaps they should have a policy of fully manning all ships that are available for sea duties – and de-man vessels that are undergoing significant refit or other very lengthy maintenance – perhaps they already do that. If so, is there… Read more »

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Almost an inverse schrodinger’s cat. Is the cat alive or dead in the box? For sure it will be dead one day if we don’t intervene… Do you have RN Braid and support in Washington pushing T26 as the true Commonwealth Frigate for AUKUS? Or do you put them on platforms? T26 is an order above FREMM and the initial FREMM buy is capped at 10, and yet Glasgow is in the water. T26 programme will finish with 8 T26, with some more ‘Straya and canucks and yet if Braid in US worked for a T26 (give the FREMMs to… Read more »

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

The issue here would appear to be around matelots and not braid?

Part of the issue, on braid, is the various missions RN staffs like it had 70 destroyers and frigates. This creates lots of desk jobs. The fear is that giving up these missions shrinks UK naval influence. Which it won’t get back as the operational punch increases.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

I am not suggesting we don’t intervene in the conflict described in the piece, in a reactive, defensive manner. Our ships are there to keep sea lanes open and provide a high measure of protection for transiting commercial shipping. Allied warships, including ours, should open fire as required. You are a little obsessed with ‘braid’ if you don’t mind me saying. I don’t think the issue is whether senior RN officers should either do staff jobs or serve on platforms. They are needed in both roles and are posted between such roles – and I am not aware that we… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Graham Moore
David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Sir. Braid. There’s too much and it costs too much. Simples. Pensions, school fees, allowances, staff. Pray tell me the rank of a US officer in charge of a company? Simples. Should you have a rotten tooth, would you keep having it drilled or just get the damp removed and replaced by an implant? For whatever the RN are doing in the ME there is zero News coverage, nothing on the channels and in the meantime, Grant Shapps can’t tell a lettuce from a cabbage when it comes to warships, then again the Opposition were slow on the uptake as… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

You use the word ‘braid’ to describe any officer of any rank – I would use the term to describe senior officers (Lt Col and above in the army). However… In the US Army a young Captain who has done a SO3 staff job commands a company of about 100 soldiers. We are a different country with a different system – we have a Major as OC with a Capt as 2IC. Our companies can be slightly bigger. But I believe our system is better. A subaltern in his early 20s commands a Platoon, a Captain in his mid-late 20s… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Graham Moore
David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

It’s a shame Dick Winters is not around to discuss his role as a Captain in WW2; my heavens, how did he ever cope?

With respect to your service, l’ll leave it there.

I was RMP, which I have told you before and I understand the difference wrt Braid.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

David, Dick Winters was exceptional – not every 26 year old Captain is going to do well at commanding a company in combat. The other point about the US system as regards West Pointers is that American Army officers lose a lot of Regimental Duty time in doing that long 4-year commissioning course. Still they seem to be happy with their system. Our officers in command roles at all levels have more RD experience. I am not sure that my service has got anything to do witth our discussion. I think there are bigger issues to address in the British… Read more »

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

I was being polite with regard your service. However, you later on raise a point: “I think there are bigger issues to address in the British Army than cutting OCs down to Captains and cutting COs down to Majors, to save a bit of money.” That’s the nub, is it not; the officer Corps have no interest in reform to save money and while you blithely dismiss Dick Winters as exceptional you ignore all Sgt pilots in WW2, Sgts and Colour Sgts commanding companies in Burma, and then continue to career down the same path even though it is broken.… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Yes but RMP was your choice Barry not my fault……😂😂😂👍

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

David… my name is David.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Sorry Mr Barry, may I call you David? (Dark rum affects my comprehension) 👍

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

No, no, no, why break the habit of a lifetime, you can stick with Monkey – makes it easier for you to remember…

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

You are madder than me for sure 😂👍

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Agreed, with the natural exceptions of nature, as we are all human, most of our DE officers are pretty good and have a decent attitude, most certainly since nearly half are no longer “posh kids” but uni educated working class kids! However the posh kids do develop a sense of attachment and reliance on “their men” and do go over and above for them! All in all our system is pretty good, and suits it’s purpose mate 👍

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Thanks AB. I was DE but came from a comprehensive school in ‘rough old Crawley’. The ‘smart’ regiments have the posh officers from the ‘right’ schools – that is their thing. My Dad was a salesman and Mum was a typist. In the various Corps (I was REME as you know) most of our DE officers were from quite ordinary backgrounds, many like mine. The Americans have their officer training and appointment system which works for them and we have ours. I prefer ours, as more time is spent at Regimental Duty gaining experience with soldiers rather than attending very… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Cheers mate, while our forces are falling to bits regarding kit and forward planning, the average person in rig are in fact head and shoulder above others in regard to professionalism and pride in their job, sub unit and units! I have very rarely, regarding officers, come across many plonkers, compared to other NATO and certainly none NATO countries. No system is perfect but ours works and works best!

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

PS you boys in the LADs (and girls) always, always and always had the best bars and drinking dens, and any excuse for a party 😂

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Thanks mate – and our metalsmiths made great BBQ cookers out of 50-gall oil drums. I always wondered why the BBQ scran tasted oily!

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Hi Dave The U.K never got a look in with the FFG(X) no Braid from the RN we’re ever involved as it was completely pointless. Due to the total foul ups of the LCS, Ford and Zumwalt classes they set it up in deliberate and laid down way. Zero risks to be taken, no new tech and completely risk averse. No ship that was not in service or that wasn’t a development of an existing in service design would be considered. Not even the USN themselves, Gibbs & Cox, GD of HII were allowed to submit a Fresh design and… Read more »

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Thxs for that dit, it’s very informative and I hope feeds into the convo.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Crews do sort of disband. Used to be a core group left to keep ships knowledge alive, supervise things, provide the core to regenerate. Don’t know about now but there is always an RN interface at the dockyards. Ships are home – so there was loyalty to the ship and the crew looked after the ship. I sense things are desperate now wrt to crews and manpower generally. I hope I’m wrong but not regenerating a perfectly good MILSEC hull such as Albion when there is a shortage of hulls sends a very clear message. As I posted before Albions… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago

Thanks SB – I thought as much. As we know, the key thing about the prospect of losing HMS Albion, one of only 2 LPDs, by sale,scrapping or mothballing, is that it hobbles our chances of using the RM in an assault role. That it can do other things is highly beneficial.

George
George
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Interesting numbers Graham. The rank system is top heavy after four decades of trying to retain trained personnel with pointless promotions. Rather than creating real potential opportunities for advancement with some job satisfaction. An inverted pyramid has no solid base and is destined to topple over. Not something a nation like ours can afford in this dangerous world.

Our armed forces have fallen below the minimum size to ensure sustainability. We couldn’t even spare people to train conscripts and fight a war if needed.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
2 months ago
Reply to  George

You cannot retain personnel if they dont have progression and promotion ( Pay increase) As an engineer, my progression was tied to my knowledge and experience as a LH, PO, CPO, CC, WO2 and WO1. Each rank was a result of experience gained and knowledge that was then applied to the next higher position. The exact same issues being seen now where in evidence with the Black hole in the 90s. Its nothing new. Lack of people create gaps. Gaps mean people double hat and increase workload. No work life balance, get threaders slap in notice and the lack of… Read more »

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
2 months ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Hi GB am I right in thinking that the Anti Air capability of the mk8 4.5 was decommissioned several years ago ?
In which case it is down to a CIWS or 30mm 🤔

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Yep. When the ER base bleed 4.5 round came in the AA software wasn’t updated for the new ballistics and was removed.

You can track aircraft on the EO sight. You could put the gun on the end of the sight and follow but the prediction bit isn’t there anymore so it’s pretty useless.

I bet someone somewhere is busily trying to recode the software as we speak!

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

And yet at the last Cenotaph, several Chiefs were talking of a rating who was sub qualified and picked up extras for both diver and medic – iirc – and was on better pay than them, he didn’t want promotion!

Then again, you lot hit the spirits faster than a rocket, so my memory may be struggling 😉

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  George

I agree. There seem to be so many senior officer posts in corporate MoD that are new jobs/woke jobs/unnecessary jobs/jobs that could be done by civil servants.

Don’t ask me for examples! – I have been out of the mob for 15 years – its just a perception.

Deep32
Deep32
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Hi Graham, yes the RN strength is approx 29K, but not all are ‘general service(ships)’ sailors as @DB posted. A really rough split people wise is; GS – 13000 SM – 4500 FAA – 4000 RM – 7500 This doesnt take into account any current gapping due to lack of joiners etc, so might well be +/- 10-15% out. As a further example, for submariners, it requires roughly 1900 sailors across all ranks/rates and specialisations to crew our 11 SMs at any given time. You cant just parachute Royals into SM positions or vice versa, the same across all 4… Read more »

monkey spanker
monkey spanker
2 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

Add in 5-10% are probably off sick/not fit at any given time. The recruitment process across services is not working properly. Time from application to joining is far too long. Some have said it’s been over 18 months. For a young person needing an income that is a lifetime to them. Ideally it should be weeks. Week one apply, get paperwork done, week 2 medical and whatever else is needed. Week 3-4 placement sorted with start date. For people in a difficult situation there should be places they can go. So a person that’s been thrown out of home can… Read more »

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  monkey spanker

Crikey that would solve the problem – can’t have that!

Deep32
Deep32
2 months ago
Reply to  monkey spanker

Hi MS, there is lots wrong with the way we effectively treat our service people. Accommodation,pay,conditions of service, pensions etc, the list goes on. Not much has really changed over the past few decades to improve their lot either, perhaps a bit of tinkering around the edges but thats about it. Getting youngsters into the service seems beyond the powers to be at the moment, getting people to stay seems another step to far! There is an awful lot that needs to change before we can dot the i and cross the t’s on recruitment/retention. I expect it is probably… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

Thanks Deep. SM is submarine? So Navy has got 13,000 GS sailors and 4,500 submariners.
Why have 4,500 submariners when the navy needs just 1,900?

Not being critical. Just trying to learn stuff.

Deep32
Deep32
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Hi mate, yes, SM is Submarine. The Navy doesnt need 1900 Submariners, it needs more to keep Submarines at sea. The 1900 figure is for those serving in sea going billets/posts. IE onboard a SM in active service. The remainder will be those having served their period at sea(2-3 yrs is the average sea posting) and are now shore based(down time with their families etc, hopefully in their opted for port area) until they are due to return to a SM. It also baby submariners that require trg/ waiting to join a sea going unit, people on long term courses,… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

Thanks Deep. I think many will be surprised to hear that 4,500 Submariners are required to keep our SSBNs and SSNs operational and running. Clearly the politicians who set manpower caps have not got this message and a similar one for the surface fleet, no doubt.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

And add the 4,000 plus FAA and several thousand RM into that 29000 figure.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 months ago

Sorry Deep, just read that you covered that up thread.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
2 months ago
Reply to  Deep32

NATO posts are the No1 priority after ships for manning up. They also need to be considered. To be a NATO top table player you have to supply the players.

So manpower for NATO HQs and Bases is also part of the equation. Add in Def Attache posts, Loan Service it all eats away at the numbers

Deep32
Deep32
2 months ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Yes, very good point mate, forgot about that detail.
It does make you wonder if there is actually a manning masterplan, or are we just winging it!

Joe16
Joe16
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

That’s a handy figure- thanks. Assuming that covers the ideal crewing number for all available vessels (so that the ones that are tied up alongside due to lack of crew can sail again), that’s a tooth to tail ratio of 1:3, or looking at it another way 25% of the Navy’s personnel are “fighting” personnel, while the rest provide administration, support, repair and maintenance, etc. That’s not actually a bad ratio at all for a western military arm. If I read you correctly, though, the implication is that the 29,000 does not include 7,000 “fighting” personnel, so the ratio is… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Joe16

Joe, the figure of 7,140 to crew all ships and submarines (single crews, not double crews) is included in the 29,000 figure. It is for all vessels, not just those that are available for deployment, as I understand it.

Don’t forget that within those 29,000 personnel are officers in staff jobs – not just shore-based sailors doing admin, support, repair, maintenance.

Steve
Steve
2 months ago
Reply to  Blessed

This is shooting down low complexity slow moving drones, a frigate with camm would do the job also just fine. Which increases the number of platforms above 6. How many are actually available to be deployed is another question, I suspect less than 6.

Blessed
Blessed
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

This is shooting down low complexity drones for now. It’s not beyond the stretch to see some quite sophisticated missiles being supplied. If I was Iran or even Putin I would look at this as a good opportunity to test or humiliate ( or for revenge). I think this has only just begun. Without a type 45 there how vulnerable is a type 23?

Steve
Steve
2 months ago
Reply to  Blessed

If the t23 can’t defend themselves against missile attack then they shouldn’t really exist as a platform as they would be useless in a war. We don’t have enough destroyers to escorts other escorts.

ChrisJ
ChrisJ
2 months ago
Reply to  Blessed

“Without a type 45 there how vulnerable is a type 23?”

Not particularly, Sea Ceptor is an excellent point defence system for the T23s.

Last edited 2 months ago by ChrisJ
Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

It’s also attrition, of course. In real terms, cheap / mass produced air threat taken out by very sophisticated, expensive anti-air radars & missiles, plus logistical cost. A long term ‘insurgency’ where water replaces sand.

Steve
Steve
2 months ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

This is all linked to isreal though and that war isn’t going to be long term. They fully have their gloves off and just mass killing people. If the US has the same approach in Iraq/Afgan they would have easily won. Once isreal finishes off the situation should settle down. New problems will no doubt happen but one issue at a time

Last edited 2 months ago by Steve
Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Isreal is an excuse the houthi nob jockies are now spouting in line with their Iranian backer’s instructions! Fuck all to do with Isreal/Palestine, all to do with Iranian influence and its efforts at disrupting the US and the Western allies dominance in the area. Notice that China are not involved, but just watching and Chinese merchant ships piggy backing on US/UK escorts!

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Apparently, not quite right, the Chinese seem to have an invisible shield where they are just not targeted. Strange that.

Should there ever be a time to turn green, turn off oil imports and foxtrot Oscar Chinese imports at the high port, it is now.

We need to cast off mid East oil and Chinese imports. Rant over.

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Still, broadening the focus, I find it interesting that China’s State owned COSCO Shipping is rumoured to be negotiating with the Houthis over a ”structured payment plan’. Declared reason is to get Houthis to allow Chinese-owned commercial vessels to trade unmolested with their markets. If this is true:- a) not aware Chinese State ships have been ‘unduly targetted’; b) think China would be somewhat humiliated to accede to a ‘protection racket’; c) is not exactly lacking in naval assets; d) has a naval facility in adjacent Djibouti. On the other hand, any such payments, by inference considerable, would hardly represent… Read more »

Steve
Steve
2 months ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

The major powers need to stop messing around in the region, whether it was the UK in the 50s, us / Soviets in the 60s and 70s or now the Chinese. Not to mention US blind support for isreal. Until all the powers stop messing around with the region, peace will never really happen.

Chris
Chris
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Yeah, good luck with that.

Pull out and watch the other team take over for good.

Redshift
Redshift
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Gill

She is not alone, she is part of an international response, the UK is not conducting this exercise alone, why are you pretending that she is?

Steve
Steve
2 months ago
Reply to  Redshift

Whilst true, the exercise needs more ships. Taking out of a merchant ship would have serious consequences to our economy at a time where its already in trouble. All shipping would need to be rerouted resulting in significant increase in time taken and therefore cost and in turn inflation. Madness not to send more ships to help stop that in a period where we have isolated ourselves from our biggest trading partner and already suffering seriously high inflation

Last edited 2 months ago by Steve
Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Agreed, crazy to think that efforts at saving money by reducing the military can increase costs for everyone and everything by that very reduction of capability! Governments, fuck me, all are incompetent short term thinkers!

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Yeah, but the average paratrooper was thinking about Friday P.M. in the Ratpit… come on, admit it!

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

How do you know these things? 😂

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

X marks the spot, normally on both sides of your temporal lobes as no sane person would jump into combat.

Mad buggers, the lot of you; and really happy that you had the Rangers to look up to when you wanted to go from mad to full on berserker mode in Helmand.

I started with 4RIR in London – your lot and Them were across the Court Yard at Duke of Yorks from us Irish.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Beserker mode 😂! Duke of York barracks, sold off for a few million, big waste, decent reserve units moved on! Sigh the early start of selling off the defence estate mate!

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Us Oirish have a reputation to uphold, FAB. Not right on Duke of Yorks. It was land leased by the Earl Cadogan, the first Earl had established the Guards on the swamps of Birdcage Walk after some European war. Ennobled by a delightful King, Cadogan was proffered to Sir Hans Sloane’s daughter and upon marriage inherited one of the greatest Estates in London including the Kings Road down to World’s End ish. Biggest mistake? Selling the Freehold to Harrods; not a mistake they would ever repeat. Now, every Cadogan has served in the Coldstream Guards, bar Edward who with dyslexia… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Had no clue about that, the going’s on of the Rich and powerful 😂! Doesn’t surprise me about 21, if I’m honest mate, that’s another dit for another day….👍

Charles Verrier
Charles Verrier
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Gill

With only 48 Aster (at most) on board they’ve got to be slightly concerned about resupply. Does Bahrain have the capability to load missiles? It’ll not be a good look if we have to quietly scoot back to Blighty for stocks while admitting we don’t have many ships with even SeaCeptor (let alone Sea Viper) ready to take over.

Charles Verrier
Charles Verrier
2 months ago

…aaaand by way of an update HMS Richmond is heading out (with Sea Ceptor)

Chris
Chris
2 months ago

Duqm Oman has a RN sea base correct?

Tim
Tim
2 months ago

Italy use Aster missiles, so we should in theory be able to arrange a re-stock there. I suspect though another T45 is being identified now to be made available to take over and the planners are hoping Diamond doesn’t run out first. She must be down to about 38 by now so maybe 3 more weeks?

Chris
Chris
2 months ago
Reply to  Tim

You won’t run it beyond half empty, under the possibility it has to defend itself from a mass-saturation attack.

Expat
Expat
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Gill

Trouble is even with more hulls we weren’t considering a sceanrio where we may have to do continuous airdefence for what might be years. Rather we designed carrier strike force. Where the airdefence was for a carrier group that would blunt the enemies abilities to launch these missiles in the first instance.

Last edited 2 months ago by Expat
monkey spanker
monkey spanker
2 months ago

These guys really are a pain in the backside. Hopefully they give up soon but that’s doubtful. Second are they going to stop when Israel is finished in Gaza. Another thing is where are they getting the targeting information? Where is it being gathered and where are the orders being given from. That will be where to strike and is a legitimate target. Large strikes will just inflame the situation unfortunately. Perhaps the Saudi led coalition could do some strikes if they are even still active over Yemen. Main thing is to make sure it’s military targets and that after… Read more »

farouk
farouk
2 months ago

“”Largest attack on Royal Navy warship in decades”

 
 
 
and when asked by the media the Uk Defence minister replied with:
“Watch this space.”
Revealing he is not fit for purpose.

Last edited 2 months ago by farouk
Chris
Chris
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Agreed, that was an absurd statement. This isn’t a business school project.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

The international situation is much more complex than that. Hence why the Americans haven’t launched any strikes yet. Don’t let your dislike for one politician blind you. Strikes for both nations might come very soon.

Farouk
Farouk
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Robert,
I was referring to the fact how the British Def Sec, knocked out a populist sound bite which wasn’t pertinent to his position.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  Farouk

Yes.But he’s not going to give much away when talking about potential strikes in another country.

Jim
Jim
2 months ago
Reply to  Farouk

The guys a clown, what’s worse is he’s been known to be a clown and turn everything he touches to shit instantly.

And yet still sunak gave him the job.

Frank62
Frank62
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

“Watch this space.”

….For the next round of defence cuts? No wonder our enemies feel so confident.

Andrew D
Andrew D
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank62

Spot on

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank62

Unfortunately true. The best friend of our enemies are the internal threats to our national security and our ability to wage warfare eg the Tory government embodied in it’s full glory by Sunak, Hunt and Shapps. The three utterly gormless amigo’s

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Absolutely 💯

farouk
farouk
2 months ago

“”Largest attack on Royal Navy warship in decades”       No it wasn’t, as reported by U.S. Central Command aka Cent Con on their twitter feed::       Houthi Attack on International Shipping On Jan. 9, at approximately 9:15 p.m. (Sanaa time), Iranian-backed Houthis launched a complex attack of Iranian designed one-way attack UAVs (OWA UAVs), anti-ship cruise missiles, and an anti-ship ballistic missile from Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen into the Southern Red Sea, towards international shipping lanes where dozens of merchant vessels were transiting. Eighteen OWA UAVs, two anti-ship cruise missiles, and one anti-ship ballistic missile were… Read more »

George
George
2 months ago

Will the MOD need to decommission more frigates to cover the cost of expending so many expensive missiles.

Redshift
Redshift
2 months ago
Reply to  George

Of course not they will they will pay for it directly from Rishi Sunaks pocket..what exactly are you trying to say? Come out with it and say what you actually mean.

George
George
2 months ago
Reply to  Redshift

Ho ho ho it’s above my pay grade to understand such things.

Frank62
Frank62
2 months ago
Reply to  George

But it seems for decades those paid to lead(PMs, COEs, Defence ministers etc have blatently failed to address the dangers we are in, cutting forces consistantly, dangerously, naively while the threats have grown.

Charles Verrier
Charles Verrier
2 months ago
Reply to  George

The missiles are already bought and paid for, and they would have been due for rebuild to Block 1 in a few years anyway, so continuous recycling and replacement is built into the budget.

That’s why we can ship Storm Shadow to Ukraine – they are otherwise just sitting on a shelf depreciating towards scrap status anyway. All that’s needed is a bit of an uptick in replacement rate (although the UK may be wishing it had bigger stockpiles right now)

Mike Gill
Mike Gill
2 months ago

The MOD despite all the sometimes nasty/inaccurate slurs at it does try to manage its financial (limited) pot to address its needs.
A wish list of things we should have are just that, but I do think that if they can’t squeeze more money out of the treasury they might have be radical to free up more cash….dare I say postpone purchasing any more f35b to release that spend to address the surface fleet problems? Not a quick fix but they need to be creative??

Gareth
Gareth
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Gill

They should point out how much the treasury gets from maritime through the Red Sea (I imagine for the UK it’s a significant % of our exports/imports which pass through this area).

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
2 months ago
Reply to  Gareth

Mmm and how many of the ships are British / US registered and pay taxes here ?

Charles Verrier
Charles Verrier
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

It’s not the ships we care about so much – it’s the security of the access route to Suez. If everything has to go the long way round, then shipping prices are going to double

Sjb1968
Sjb1968
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Gill

Unfortunately after 35 years of working on large construction projects 25+ for the MOD, NHS and DFE they still have largely top heavy, incompetent and some very lazy managers that waste a fortune. The forms of procurement are protracted, overly bureaucratic and slow. When reforms are proposed they are normally redesigned by the very managers who like the status quo so hence very little change. Accounting procedures are archaic allowing no clever management of budgets between capital, running and maintenance streams with the same year end cliff edge cuts or spending splurges. The only real change is the outsourcing of… Read more »

Expat
Expat
2 months ago
Reply to  Sjb1968

Yeah, get some top people in from the airlines and oil industry, they manage big asset purchases and would run rings around he average CS procurement bod. We’d actually get cheaper kit, contracts that hold suppliers to account.

You ask any supplier who supplies the civilian industry and MoD which they prefer, they’ll say MoD as they get harrassed less and make more margin.

Frank62
Frank62
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Gill

F35b are the teeth of the carriers, therefore a key part of the surface fleet.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Gill

Sorry Mike but it is 100% down to PPP = PPP in MOD and Government short sited incompetence. I hope you know what that means ! I will give you an example of the contrast between Industry / Private thinking regarding the provision of Defence and CS/MOD/Senior Officers. Presently BAe, Babcock, H&W, and my old lot here in Derby are investing huge sums of money in new production facilities, recruitment and training. That is all being carried out “at pace”, seriously prioritised and is being delivered on schedule. The need to provide all of this was rammed down MOD/HMG throats… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Well written and accurate response ABC. 👍👏👏👏👏👏

John Williams
John Williams
2 months ago

Largest attack on Royal Navy warship in decades and yet the Royal Navy plans to scrap two frigates.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
2 months ago
Reply to  John Williams

Look at it in detail and scrapping two now means nothing in the short term and affects mid-term only. Neither frigate is operational and won’t be for 12-36 months if you started work on them now. That has didily effect on the current situation. A ship in refit is not instantly a Sleek Grey Warrior of Death crewed by Steely eyed matelots with cutlasses between their teeth ready to reign death and destruction down on the Kings enemies the second it moves past the dry dock gates. Harbour trials, Sea Trials, Sea Safety Work up, Training and FOST take around… Read more »

Adrian
Adrian
2 months ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

While very true, sea trials etc in an emergency could be reduced dramatically but yes I agree with your point. The biggest concern is that once these ships are lost it becomes the new minimum quantity and they never get replaced, I hope the orders for the new frigates are so water tight they cannot get changed without massive costs. The other problem is that if you a requirement to crew 20 ships, they vacancies are there and showing a shortage, if you 18 ships suddenly you’re not showing as big shortage and the target becomes crews for 18 ships… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

“Sleek eyed warrior of death etc” 😂 mate nowadays I was thinking more of a lumbering old wreck, crewed by half trained kids who were rushed through training to bolster numbers, running about wide eyed making shit up as they go crying to each other about having to hand their phones in on a deployment! Hang on…..sorry mate that’s the Army!!! 😂😂😂😂.

Ok ok I’m just taking the piss, stop typing angry replies……hang on, sorry, I meant the RAF Reg!

Chris
Chris
2 months ago
Reply to  John Williams

A bigger issue is the T45 availability crisis. The PiP has turned into an unmitigated disaster. Even if all 6 are magically ready and staffed tomorrow, only two crews are truly worked up and ready. It would take months of training to get the crews of the other 4 ready for combat.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
2 months ago
Reply to  Chris

I think 2 are deployable on relatively short notice.

PiP was speeded up probably as the frigate disaster came into focus.

Paul T
Paul T
2 months ago
Reply to  Chris

Both Dragon and Daring should be reasonably close to the finishing line with their PIP Upgrades,i think the work involved has proven to be more costly in time than originally envisaged.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
2 months ago

Pity the RN can’t return fire right back to the launchers! Those T31s were needed yesterday. Why not order another 3-5, so at least 4 can stay in the mid East and the rest can do their thing elsewhere?

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

The type 31 programme does need another batch. The RN is 5 frigates short now. God help us if we do stumble unprepared into another serious war (Russia, Iran and China) as the RN with just 17 or actually 15 active escort warships is not going to be of much use. The type 31+26+32 frigate programmes need to be capitalised and invested into so the RN returns to what was once considered the minimum required for NATO tasking and national interest which is 26 frigates and destroyers. We are way off that number now and dangerously low, as we are… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Interesting article on the BBC website today. The Houthi know they have us in a bind at the moment. The mixed salvo they launched means that, if it is targeted, a single warships needs a weapon for the drones, the AShM and their new ballistic missile which has an optical seeker. As you say T31 would be well suited in cost and capability. Even so it’s an expensive business and the Houthi know it. I’m sure US satellites are locating every single launcher, warehouse and assembly plant as we speak. I think we will see a significant strike by the… Read more »

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
2 months ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Iran supplied the weapons, and they tend to make their launchers disguisable as ordinary commercial trucks, so unless you spot the actual launch taking place, they would be hard to track down.

Andrew D
Andrew D
2 months ago

How long can the RN keep this up 🤔 well done to them. But shortage of ships manpower supplies , not good .Let alone talk of the two Assault vessels for the chop , what do HMG want our RM do jump off frigates and Destroyers and swim to the Beach.For this red sea business no doubt the USA will take the strain but other European nations need to step in .There again missiles are expensive . 🇪🇺 😕

Pete ( the original from years ago)
Pete ( the original from years ago)
2 months ago
Reply to  Andrew D

It’s interesting..the Egyptian navy is the largest, most modern and capable fleet in Africa…its impressive…but where are they?I know there are sensitivities but current situation is fundamental to their Suez revenue.

If true, the decision not to maintain AA on 4.5″ mk8 is looking like an economic disaster, and a lost risk mitigation / capability

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago

Bring back the real HMS Belfast!

I need 100,000 signatures for a petition, who’s up for it?

😉

Chris
Chris
2 months ago
Reply to  Andrew D

The US and UK do the needful while the rest of the European community stands by and watches.

Oh and thanks to Canada, NL, and Australia for the moral support. Really useful in defending against a ballistic missile attack.

The only positive is now the USN and RN know what defending against a real Ballistic missile attack on a ship looks like, and what works. Only navies in the world to do it first hand so far.

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
2 months ago

It would be interesting to know the exact type of anti-ship missiles the Houthis are using (Noor?, Fatah 313?)

I see the Iranians have sent the Alborz (frigate) to the Red Sea, I no have idea why they think this 55-year-old 1100-ton ship would have any deterrent effect on the coalition of US/UK ships in the region.
Possibly using her as a platform to spot targets for the Houthis ?

Last edited 2 months ago by Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
2 months ago

To answer my own questions (got this from another site)

Asef – an anti-ship derivative of Iran’s Fateh 313
Tankil – version of the Iranian Raad-500
Al-Mandeb 2 an anti-ship cruise missile

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago

Might the Houthis have been targetting merchant shipping rather than aiming for the warships?
Of course I am not criticising the warships’ response in case anyone thinks that I am!
I fully support the response. The warships are there to protect civilian vessels.
There is a need to have low cost, effective weapons to counter the cheaper, less sophisticated drones.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Yes there is a need for low cost options, I fully agree with you.

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

See above.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Yes mate I have seen.

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

There is a low cost solution to the problem.

It is to target the Iranian Head Shed with a nearing life expiry, bringer of instant sunshine nuclear missile and let them enjoy Allah’s embrace.

Also make a great car park afterwards; if only we had a way of harvesting all that instant sunshine!

And think of writing off the costs of re-recycling said warhead; it’s for winners and accountants aka HM Treasury.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Iran edges closer to having nuclear weapons (surely) and supplies odious regimes (eg. Russia) and terrorist groups with weapons (much as Libya did under Ghadaffi). These weapons actually get used and cause a massive toll in loss of human life and limb.

I think the West (and Israel) has been far too lenient with Iran. Marginalisation, some sanctions, an occasional US armed drone attack on a key figure.
Perhaps your option is a bit extreme though!

AlexS
AlexS
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Precisely, do not waste resources with Houthis, go to the head of the snake.

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

At the risk of being accused of conspiracy theory, I have no doubt that the Houthis were testing Diamond. The political and psychological value of a hit on a RN warship would be enormous. It would almost as provocative as the USS Cole incident. It is the Islamic fundamentalist mindset to provoke an overreaction and draw the US and UK into downwards spiral. Same as Hamas did with Israel, same as Al Queda did with 9/11. It’s part of the fundamentalist culture.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Rubbish, you know nothing about it or any other event that actually happened…… Just stop right there with your silly Theories…. OK ?

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

As I said, at the risk….:-)

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Not based on any actual facts though, so just silly as I said.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I actually think you are right. They are trying to provoke the UK and US to launching a campaign in Yemen. The Houthis want an escalation and wider conflict in the middle east. Anything to draw away Western military forces and consume expensive hardware. I wonder how much it would cost and how quickly the RN could replace all its DS30mm mounts for 40mm Bofors and how long it would take to fit a deck mounted Martlett launcher with 12-16 rounds to every single surface ship we have? We need to go for more lethality and distributed kill chains so… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Exactly!

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Give some credit – Chicoms will be watching this and learning lessons, which they might pass on to other commie nations.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Diamond responded with fire as did other US warships who were presumably close by. HMS Diamond is deployed on ‘Operation Prosperity Guardian, a new international task force to ensure freedom of navigation in the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden. Alongside HMS Diamond, the task force currently includes three US destroyers, and a French warship is also in the region’.

Thus the Houthis may not have been uniquely targetting Diamond but the international task force as a whole.

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Hi Graham, I understand and admit my comments have an element of gut instinct. Could be I’m reading too much into Shapps tone of voice last night. In any event the UK cabinet is sitting as I write this and Keir Starmer and John Healey have been summoned to No 10 for a briefing. Looks like we will see action soon.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Hi Paul, the Houthis have initiated the downward spiral you talked of!

Once again, the value of having RAF Akrotiri as a launch base has been well demonstrated. Made up for our not having a carrier in the area.

Will the mothballing of the LPDs, the resulting marginalisation of ‘the Royals’ and the scrapping/selling of yet 2 more frigates go ahead? Its looking like ‘a John Nott’ moment for the hapless Shapps.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

I share your concerns, as do so many others here….. I do believe however that the two T23’s will be scrapped as they appear to be beyond economical or logical repair…. What a mess these elected folk create and leave behind…..😥

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Yes, Argyll and Westminster were commissioned in 1991 and 1994 respectively. The first of class, HMS Norfolk, was commissioned in 1990.

Assuming a 25-year life, new frigates should have started to be commissioned from 2015, with Argyll and Westminster being replaced in 2016 and 2019 respectively.

But of course that didn’t happened and T26 and T31 programmes deliver later than those idealised, theoretical dates. What a mess, that’s for sure.

….and to go down to 9 elderly frigates. We will be lucky if 3 or 4 are available at any given time.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Indeed, Akrotiri is yet another great and valuable asset the Uk has around the World… Aden should have been another but alas, that’s another story.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

I hadn’t heard there was some sort of plan to retain Aden as a UK Sovereign Base, back in the day. Interesting.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

There wasn’t, it was just that If we had somehow managed to stay, Aden would have been a Fantastic Strategic Base.

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Hi Graham, 3000 mile round trip. Impressive capability. I think the government has done well so far. Cameron sounds positively statesman like. Was always going to happen given the psychological ‘oneness’ of followers of Islam. I wonder if the Mullahs watch the Sopranos?
Hopefully the T45s will complete the PIP upgrade soon and BAe and Babcock can shave some time off the new frigates.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

T45’s will not complete the PIP upgrade for many years, It’s just not remotely possible and the new Ships are on a pretty rigid production schedule….. Nothing short of WW3 will change anything anytime soon.

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Too bad :-(. What’s going on with Agyll?

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Beyond Economical Repair apparently…. not enough Crew, it’s all a mess, She’s been in Devonport for 18 months now.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I agree. Cameron is in his element. I read that a HMG spokesman said there would not be any more strikes. I find that hard to believe.

I agree we need the new frigates ASAP but the first are still a couple of years away – they should have been fielded from 2015 onwards in my opinion. Sea trials etc will take some time even if build speed is increased.

Expat
Expat
2 months ago

Some are critisiing fleet numbers but reality is our force structure and vessels weren’t designed to provide continuous point defence, rather we have design a ‘carrier stirke force’, the name should give us all a clue. We desinged a naval force that would go on the offensive removing the enemies ability to strike by hitting their military complex supply lines and launch sites. Better to spend £1m on a missle and take out a factory that will supply a thousand drones or missiles than fire 1000 missiles to take out 1000 drones/missles. Any enemy will learn, they will improve their… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Expat
Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Expat

So you want the UK to attack Iran then ?

Expat
Expat
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Not suggesting anything, just highlighting where we have failed over 25 years to anticipate how our navy would be depolyed.

Perhaps Lbaiour are right, why get involved outside our tur stick to the Europe and NA, especially when our force structure is not suited. Whilst its a bit more expensive to go around Africa large cargo vessels mean the price per item is a little more expensive, if that make Chinese goods more expensive than home made is that a bad thing. If China have an issue then they can step up.

Not my opinion just suggestions.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Expat

I’m of much the same thought process re Chinese goods…. have been for decades, all we are doing is helping them to build an offensive capability to enable expansion and dare I say Empire building…. Although it’s not just the Commercial trade with China here, If you look at any ship tracking site, you will see a huge proportion are Tankers and as we all know, Oil is the life blood of the major world economies, hence why once again “We” are getting seriously involved in that region…… Personally I can live without endless amounts of Chinese crap but Oil… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Expat

It’s very hard to work out where the navy will be deployed in future, but we could have guessed that the ME in proximity to narrow shipping lanes (Straits) would continue to be a trouble spot!

It’s a lot more expensive to go around South Africa – I heard it would cost a container ship another £1.5m

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Expat

The RN is not just about a Carrier Strike Force. Indeed for 10 years or so we did not even have one. Even when we depoly a Carrier group, most of our naval vessels are not in it, just one or two destroyers, one or two frigates and maybe one sub – plus the usual support ship(s).

Not sure that a Carrier group operating dangerously close to the Yemeni shoreline is the best way to deal with the Houthis – more strikes from Akrotiri will probably happen.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

The F35’s do have a pretty decent range though….. so the Carrier/s would not have to be very near the coast….. It would provide a fantastic opportunity to “Blood” them though….. After all, it’s just what they were built for….. just like the T45’s.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Frank, most folk here do down the F-35B’s range. You might be the first to praise it.
I hadn’t meant that the Carrier should be very near the Yemeni coast, just that there is not much sea-room in the Red Sea – and some of those Houthi drones and missiles have a fair range.

Frank
Frank
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

I think their range is double that of the Harriers, or there abouts, so they can be launched from the Arabian Sea. Yes I am a fan of the F35B, just wish we had many more, I’m also a huge fan of the Typhoon. What a fantastic aircraft .

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
2 months ago

Question, with the current using of the Aster Viper stock, and hopefully resupply is happening, have there been any studies into quad packing the Sylver 50s, like the MK41s, with anything else that might cheaper like CAMM-ER/MR, or single/dual/tri-packing with Sea ASRAAM or Meteor? And will the MOD now look at putting MK41s into the T45s as well as additional CAMM? And with all deck the space available, fit 4*4 NSM if possible? And they could also build a couple of A140/T31s more in the AAW role to bolster and complement the T45s.

Last edited 2 months ago by Quentin D63
Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Need to check with an expert but I believe the idea is to upgrade the Sylver A50 VLS tubes to A70 for the Aster Block 1 and then I presume Block 1 NT upgrade. I would think NSM is a sure bet. They would fit in place of the Harpoons.

Paul T
Paul T
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I’ve said many times that Type 45 should have been built with Sylver A70 from the get go – as it stands currently A50 is sufficient for the Aster 30 upgrade that the RN has planned.

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul T

Better late never I guess. Overall I think the planned missile upgrades to T45 are excellent; cost effective, relatively quick to implement and an order of magnitude increase in capability. I might replace the Mk8 with a 57mm or at least reinstate its AA capability. Mk45 would be nice but is expensive.

Paul T
Paul T
2 months ago

There seems to be more information now regarding what Weapons were used,it is now clear that Aster was fired first, and the DS30’s were used as the threat (s) got closer to Diamond.

Something Different
Something Different
2 months ago

8 type 83s and we cannot wait!

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago

Well done to the crew of HMS Diamond! And also to the crews of the US ships.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I agree. I wonder what the French warship did?

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 months ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Probably lunch 🙂 Nice to read that Canada, Australia, Bahrain took part in some way. I see today the Danes are sending a frigate. Very welcome.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
2 months ago

Re-asking this, can any counter terrorism parties like special forces be used against those vessels that have been captured before they get out of reach?
Separate question, has HMS Diamond got her Harpoons as these might be useful but maybe not if too short in range for land attack? And has just one Wildcat or two?

Last edited 2 months ago by Quentin D63