Largest attack on Royal Navy warship in decades

Based on the people I know that work in the civil service, they were sat in their offices spinning around on desk chairs and twiddling their thumbs before clocking off at 3pm. The most deeply incompetent institution in this country is the civil service, and it’s up against some stiff competition

Do you include the 150000 service personnel working in the MoD?

No. Just the civil servants. Demonstrably poor at everything they do, could never compete in the private sector so leech off the public teat

I think that characterisation of civil servants is completely unwarranted and does not reflect the service at least nowadays. Do you have any direct experience of working in the civil service? Have you ever worked in any complex and/or large organisation particularly at a senior level and office based? If so you would realise there are many people working well beyond their contracted hours trying to keep the lights on. The military does not acquire new kit, pay salaries, build and maintain bases and perform R & D by magic. And no, uniformed personnel may not be a suitable substitute as they would typically either not have the necessary skill set (without extensive retraining) to deliver the role and/or would be more expensive than their civil servant equivalent (surprise surprise you typically get less pay for a given role, rightly so, for sitting behind a desk than risking your life for king and country).

If anything the cuts to the civil service have gone too far and need to be reversed so their uniformed colleagues have the support to concentrate on what they are good at (which is ultimately inflicting violence to his majesty’s enemies to support his majesty’s government’s objectives)

Completely agree.

Too many of our leaders have sucked up to China & Russia, courting their money, taking donations, while dismantling & running our defences into the ground.

Yes indeed. They all took in the end of history rubbish and for some reason though the west had won.

What do you expect them to do if HMT won’t make the funding available? In the end it’s down to ministerial decisions- CS can only advise. Defence spending was >5% of GDP in the 80s. Now it’s <2.5%, so do you think MOD CS have been actively supporting having their budgets endlessly cut in real terms to pay for runaway health and social spending? They have not.

It’s just above 2% this coming year and it’s only that level after the nuclear deterrent, pensions and other things that didn’t used to be in the budget were added. That accounts for around 20% of the budget I think. Don’t quote me on that figure

So the true defence budget is actually around 1.6% which is frankly ridiculous when you consider the extremely dangerous international security situation. The government are asleep at the wheel. Instead of panicking because the BBC has made them look incompetent prosecuting a load of ex Royal mail post masters (which was disgusting and not something I condon) they should have been pulling all the programme and project leads in giving them a dressing down. Call all the defence industrial companies into an emergency meeting. Tell them what they need and by when and get them to get the job done.
Budget needs to go up to at least 3-3.5% GDP to defence ratio. Crucial salaries need to increase and recruitment sped up and retention massively improved. Add 10,000 troops onto the army, 5000 extra navy , 3000 extra RAF and sort out the blinking mess.

It was ITV not the Beeb. They wouldn’t have dared to make that drama as it involves another Publicly funded gravy Train.

umm the post office is a private company.

No it isn’t. Royal Mail was privatised. The Post Office remains nationalised and was owned by the governments (Labour, coalition and Conservative) throughout the Horizon scandal.

Well I did not know that.

Times article today on this attack included a quote from Shapps that he would fight for 3% defence budgets. If he means it, good on him, but I fear that we will be met with an “I did my best”, then Healey from Labour, who actually seems to care about defence, “somehow” finds the money

I’m not sure if Healey is that committed, he is not an individual with any history of defence or foreign office expertise or experience. I’m pretty sure that Labour has a far greater will around rebuilding the nation and that will include investment in defence…this Conservative Party I don’t think they have any belief in anything.

I would go further..we are in as much or greater peril now as we were at the hight of the Cold War and our defence budge in the 70s and early 80s was 5.4 to 5.9% of GDP..every indication we have is that we are potentially running headlong into a world war…we come from a far lower base than we did in the Cole war as well…the end of history has lulled us into profound complacency that should have ended around a decade ago.

Government is doing constant fire fighting with a limited amount of hoses. Only once a situation gets out of control do they try to hose it down so it goes away. They commit to spend more money than comes in repeatedly but don’t really care as that’s some future leaders problem.

I agree with you but the problem is not with the transient workforce of elected plebs. Let’s be honest here. Their only interest is re-election and buying votes with handouts. The problem is the civil servants and the “advice” given. They spend decades in the departments and should constantly have the national interest/long game in mind. “But minister, the primary duty of HM Gov is defence of the realm, so think of the consequences ten or twenty years ahead.”

Strange how the alleged peace dividend coincided with the alleged recruiting problem. All the usual excuses are rolled out. Oh the young people these days are not interested in serving the nation. Or the cost of maintaining our modern society leaves no money for defence. Funny how they found the cash to lockdown the nation for two years but can’t find money to make joining the armed forces a very attractive career move.

Thanks David. I was not suggesting that there are not key navy jobs to be done ashore, in the UK or abroad.

It is a matter of priorities for the Admiralty as to which posts are left unmanned and which are filled, in the light of being understrength. I would have thought that priority would go to manning ships.

Perhaps they should have a policy of fully manning all ships that are available for sea duties – and de-man vessels that are undergoing significant refit or other very lengthy maintenance – perhaps they already do that. If so, is there really a problem?

Almost an inverse schrodinger’s cat.

Is the cat alive or dead in the box? For sure it will be dead one day if we don’t intervene…

Do you have RN Braid and support in Washington pushing T26 as the true Commonwealth Frigate for AUKUS? Or do you put them on platforms?

T26 is an order above FREMM and the initial FREMM buy is capped at 10, and yet Glasgow is in the water.

T26 programme will finish with 8 T26, with some more ‘Straya and canucks and yet if Braid in US worked for a T26 (give the FREMMs to the USCG) NATO would have a world beating ASW fleet for 2 decades that spanned the Globe and supported US ambition.

What would you do, Sir?

The issue here would appear to be around matelots and not braid?

Part of the issue, on braid, is the various missions RN staffs like it had 70 destroyers and frigates. This creates lots of desk jobs. The fear is that giving up these missions shrinks UK naval influence. Which it won’t get back as the operational punch increases.

I am not suggesting we don’t intervene in the conflict described in the piece, in a reactive, defensive manner. Our ships are there to keep sea lanes open and provide a high measure of protection for transiting commercial shipping. Allied warships, including ours, should open fire as required.

You are a little obsessed with ‘braid’ if you don’t mind me saying. I don’t think the issue is whether senior RN officers should either do staff jobs or serve on platforms. They are needed in both roles and are posted between such roles – and I am not aware that we are short of senior officers (Comdr and above) for sea duties. The issue of ship undermanning surely lies with the numbers of and the allocation of, the non-commissioned ranks in the General Service (seaman) branch ie the matelots.

Your T26 point seems to be very different to under-manned RN ships. I am all for generating high export sales of British equipment, whether that is T26 or any other equipment. It brings our country benefit and the RN benefit if unit price can come down and interoperability with similarly equipped allies improves.
Senior RN officers in certain relevant Defence Diplomacy posts can play their part alongside supportive Ministers and Industry sales teams, to boost T26 sales overseas.

Sir.

Braid. There’s too much and it costs too much. Simples. Pensions, school fees, allowances, staff.

Pray tell me the rank of a US officer in charge of a company? Simples.

Should you have a rotten tooth, would you keep having it drilled or just get the damp removed and replaced by an implant? For whatever the RN are doing in the ME there is zero News coverage, nothing on the channels and in the meantime, Grant Shapps can’t tell a lettuce from a cabbage when it comes to warships, then again the Opposition were slow on the uptake as well.

Export sales generate wealth and that gives funds to the Treasury via taxes on improved GDP and therefore the ability to fund defence. T26 should be pushed, even now.

How that cash is spent, on enlisted or officers brings us to the nub; pensions are a huge detraction from MoD funds so let’s cut the Braid by one rank and fund the enlisted. Simples Sir, very simple.

You use the word ‘braid’ to describe any officer of any rank – I would use the term to describe senior officers (Lt Col and above in the army). However…

In the US Army a young Captain who has done a SO3 staff job commands a company of about 100 soldiers. We are a different country with a different system – we have a Major as OC with a Capt as 2IC. Our companies can be slightly bigger.

But I believe our system is better. A subaltern in his early 20s commands a Platoon, a Captain in his mid-late 20s can be Coy 2IC, battalion adjt or SO3 at a HQ or command a complex, specialised platoon (ie ATk Pl or Recce Pl).

Then an officer commands a company in his early-mid 30s as a Major.
You are just thinking about saving money.
Our system allows enough good experience to be gained before moving up to command at a higher level. Commanding a company of 110-130 soldiers is huge responsibility and is multi-faceted – I would argue that is hard to do effectively before you reach your early-mid 30s and have 10-12 years experience.

No other career would give that responsibility to someone in their late 20s with limited experience. Lives can be at stake if our commanders are too young and inexperienced in wartime.

Incidentally the rank system was looked at by John Bett many years ago.

ME was the top story on the news this morning. I expect everyone knows what is happening now.

I continue to agree with you about the merit of strong defence exports, wehther T26 or anything else.

You use the term ‘enlisted’ so I guess you are American?

It’s a shame Dick Winters is not around to discuss his role as a Captain in WW2; my heavens, how did he ever cope?

With respect to your service, l’ll leave it there.

I was RMP, which I have told you before and I understand the difference wrt Braid.

David,
Dick Winters was exceptional – not every 26 year old Captain is going to do well at commanding a company in combat.

The other point about the US system as regards West Pointers is that American Army officers lose a lot of Regimental Duty time in doing that long 4-year commissioning course. Still they seem to be happy with their system. Our officers in command roles at all levels have more RD experience.

I am not sure that my service has got anything to do witth our discussion.

I think there are bigger issues to address in the British Army than cutting OCs down to Captains and cutting COs down to Majors, to save a bit of money.

I was being polite with regard your service.

However, you later on raise a point:

“I think there are bigger issues to address in the British Army than cutting OCs down to Captains and cutting COs down to Majors, to save a bit of money.”

That’s the nub, is it not; the officer Corps have no interest in reform to save money and while you blithely dismiss Dick Winters as exceptional you ignore all Sgt pilots in WW2, Sgts and Colour Sgts commanding companies in Burma, and then continue to career down the same path even though it is broken.

I would suggest we are done with this conversation, Sir.

Yes but RMP was your choice Barry not my fault……😂😂😂👍

David… my name is David.

Sorry Mr Barry, may I call you David? (Dark rum affects my comprehension) 👍

No, no, no, why break the habit of a lifetime, you can stick with Monkey – makes it easier for you to remember…

You are madder than me for sure 😂👍

Agreed, with the natural exceptions of nature, as we are all human, most of our DE officers are pretty good and have a decent attitude, most certainly since nearly half are no longer “posh kids” but uni educated working class kids! However the posh kids do develop a sense of attachment and reliance on “their men” and do go over and above for them! All in all our system is pretty good, and suits it’s purpose mate 👍

Thanks AB. I was DE but came from a comprehensive school in ‘rough old Crawley’. The ‘smart’ regiments have the posh officers from the ‘right’ schools – that is their thing.
My Dad was a salesman and Mum was a typist. In the various Corps (I was REME as you know) most of our DE officers were from quite ordinary backgrounds, many like mine.

The Americans have their officer training and appointment system which works for them and we have ours. I prefer ours, as more time is spent at Regimental Duty gaining experience with soldiers rather than attending very long academic courses – and considerable experience is built before appointment at Company command and Battalion command level.

I served alongside USMC officers in Bastion – they were polite and professional and did their job well, but were rather grey and humourless. Many could not easily speak to soldiers (professionally or socially) and did not really understand what made thir marines tick. They were moulded by their system and did everything strictly by the book, with very little initiative being shown. Still maybe that’s what you want in a very, very large organisation.

I have served attached to the Infantry (2SG LAD) and Sappers (twice) and been posted in Bde HQ or Bde Tps roles several times. Perhaps others might be interested that I sometimes saw Platoons commanded by Sgts when a unit was temporarily short of subbies – they did a great job, of course. The first time I was flown in a helo (Sioux) it was piloted by a Cpl – he was also excellent – we don’t need or want all-officer aircrew.

Cheers mate, while our forces are falling to bits regarding kit and forward planning, the average person in rig are in fact head and shoulder above others in regard to professionalism and pride in their job, sub unit and units! I have very rarely, regarding officers, come across many plonkers, compared to other NATO and certainly none NATO countries. No system is perfect but ours works and works best!

PS you boys in the LADs (and girls) always, always and always had the best bars and drinking dens, and any excuse for a party 😂

Thanks mate – and our metalsmiths made great BBQ cookers out of 50-gall oil drums. I always wondered why the BBQ scran tasted oily!

Hi Dave The U.K never got a look in with the FFG(X) no Braid from the RN we’re ever involved as it was completely pointless.
Due to the total foul ups of the LCS, Ford and Zumwalt classes they set it up in deliberate and laid down way.
Zero risks to be taken, no new tech and completely risk averse.
No ship that was not in service or that wasn’t a development of an existing in service design would be considered.
Not even the USN themselves, Gibbs & Cox, GD of HII were allowed to submit a Fresh design and BAe (US) really did try.
As it is the original Italian version of FREMM has now had so many changes made to it, to fit all the US kit in its unrecognisable as a FREMM.
They have even slowed the programme down due to be risk averse.
They insisted that the entire already proven machinery combination has to be shore tested before build. It’s a CODLAG system and the USN has never operated this system. LM2500 and MTU diesel’s but have to be completely tested.

Best bit is it’s as ugly as hell, will be slow, overweight and have zero growth potential.

And the T26 isn’t any of those.

I was in the Philippines last Easter diving and one of the folks I met was a recently retired USN senior officer (great pensions). He was a good laugh, drank like a fish and pretty blunt. His words were the USN has bought a clunker and they know it, but the only way they could go back to Frigates was jump through every hoop Congress and DID laid down.
What really annoys them is what Canada and the RAN are doing with the base T26 design, it’s going to be very embarrassing.

Thxs for that dit, it’s very informative and I hope feeds into the convo.

Crews do sort of disband.

Used to be a core group left to keep ships knowledge alive, supervise things, provide the core to regenerate. Don’t know about now but there is always an RN interface at the dockyards.

Ships are home – so there was loyalty to the ship and the crew looked after the ship.

I sense things are desperate now wrt to crews and manpower generally.

I hope I’m wrong but not regenerating a perfectly good MILSEC hull such as Albion when there is a shortage of hulls sends a very clear message. As I posted before Albions can take NSM/Ceptor as they have BAE CMS and ARTISAN which are integrated on T23 for both systems.

Albions would be fine for chugging up and down with merchantmen and providing a helo lily pad as well as umbrella. Good test for the PODS concept too.

Thanks SB – I thought as much. As we know, the key thing about the prospect of losing HMS Albion, one of only 2 LPDs, by sale,scrapping or mothballing, is that it hobbles our chances of using the RM in an assault role. That it can do other things is highly beneficial.

You cannot retain personnel if they dont have progression and promotion ( Pay increase)
As an engineer, my progression was tied to my knowledge and experience as a LH, PO, CPO, CC, WO2 and WO1. Each rank was a result of experience gained and knowledge that was then applied to the next higher position.

The exact same issues being seen now where in evidence with the Black hole in the 90s. Its nothing new. Lack of people create gaps. Gaps mean people double hat and increase workload. No work life balance, get threaders slap in notice and the lack of people gets worse.

The higher rates put up with it (PO, CPO, WO) because they are pension trapped.

Hi GB am I right in thinking that the Anti Air capability of the mk8 4.5 was decommissioned several years ago ?
In which case it is down to a CIWS or 30mm 🤔

Yep. When the ER base bleed 4.5 round came in the AA software wasn’t updated for the new ballistics and was removed.

You can track aircraft on the EO sight. You could put the gun on the end of the sight and follow but the prediction bit isn’t there anymore so it’s pretty useless.

I bet someone somewhere is busily trying to recode the software as we speak!

And yet at the last Cenotaph, several Chiefs were talking of a rating who was sub qualified and picked up extras for both diver and medic – iirc – and was on better pay than them, he didn’t want promotion!

Then again, you lot hit the spirits faster than a rocket, so my memory may be struggling 😉

I agree. There seem to be so many senior officer posts in corporate MoD that are new jobs/woke jobs/unnecessary jobs/jobs that could be done by civil servants.

Don’t ask me for examples! – I have been out of the mob for 15 years – its just a perception.

Add in 5-10% are probably off sick/not fit at any given time.
The recruitment process across services is not working properly. Time from application to joining is far too long. Some have said it’s been over 18 months. For a young person needing an income that is a lifetime to them.
Ideally it should be weeks. Week one apply, get paperwork done, week 2 medical and whatever else is needed. Week 3-4 placement sorted with start date.
For people in a difficult situation there should be places they can go. So a person that’s been thrown out of home can be put in accommodation while the process is fast tracked. School leavers should be also able to get a quick start.

Crikey that would solve the problem – can’t have that!

Hi MS,

there is lots wrong with the way we effectively treat our service people. Accommodation,pay,conditions of service, pensions etc, the list goes on. Not much has really changed over the past few decades to improve their lot either, perhaps a bit of tinkering around the edges but thats about it.

Getting youngsters into the service seems beyond the powers to be at the moment, getting people to stay seems another step to far! There is an awful lot that needs to change before we can dot the i and cross the t’s on recruitment/retention. I expect it is probably much the same with the RFA.

It does strike me as though HMG aren’t really that serious about these issues. BW was trying to make some headway, but was a pretty lone voice once BJ got booted into touch. The current incumbents are really to light weight to even aspire to change things. We will be bumping along, slowly possibly withering for some time to come I fear.

Thanks Deep. SM is submarine? So Navy has got 13,000 GS sailors and 4,500 submariners.
Why have 4,500 submariners when the navy needs just 1,900?

Not being critical. Just trying to learn stuff.

Hi mate, yes, SM is Submarine.

The Navy doesnt need 1900 Submariners, it needs more to keep Submarines at sea. The 1900 figure is for those serving in sea going billets/posts. IE onboard a SM in active service. The remainder will be those having served their period at sea(2-3 yrs is the average sea posting) and are now shore based(down time with their families etc, hopefully in their opted for port area) until they are due to return to a SM. It also baby submariners that require trg/ waiting to join a sea going unit, people on long term courses, walking wounded, and those serving in far off places.

As a rule of thumb, you require a manpower ratio of approx 1: 2.5 to keep your Submarines running manpower wise, hence approx 4500 Submariners all told. No idea about the FAA, but would imagine that GS works more or less the same. @GB will know more on that subject I imagine.

Dont ask about the ‘Royals’, haven’t a clue about those either, but imagine they work much the same as army units in that respect.

While 29000 sounds a reasonable amount, when you actually look at whose is actually where and what is required, its not really that many.

Thanks Deep. I think many will be surprised to hear that 4,500 Submariners are required to keep our SSBNs and SSNs operational and running. Clearly the politicians who set manpower caps have not got this message and a similar one for the surface fleet, no doubt.

And add the 4,000 plus FAA and several thousand RM into that 29000 figure.

Sorry Deep, just read that you covered that up thread.

NATO posts are the No1 priority after ships for manning up. They also need to be considered. To be a NATO top table player you have to supply the players.

So manpower for NATO HQs and Bases is also part of the equation. Add in Def Attache posts, Loan Service it all eats away at the numbers

Yes, very good point mate, forgot about that detail.
It does make you wonder if there is actually a manning masterplan, or are we just winging it!

Joe, the figure of 7,140 to crew all ships and submarines (single crews, not double crews) is included in the 29,000 figure. It is for all vessels, not just those that are available for deployment, as I understand it.

Don’t forget that within those 29,000 personnel are officers in staff jobs – not just shore-based sailors doing admin, support, repair, maintenance.

If the t23 can’t defend themselves against missile attack then they shouldn’t really exist as a platform as they would be useless in a war. We don’t have enough destroyers to escorts other escorts.

“Without a type 45 there how vulnerable is a type 23?”

Not particularly, Sea Ceptor is an excellent point defence system for the T23s.

This is all linked to isreal though and that war isn’t going to be long term. They fully have their gloves off and just mass killing people. If the US has the same approach in Iraq/Afgan they would have easily won. Once isreal finishes off the situation should settle down. New problems will no doubt happen but one issue at a time

Isreal is an excuse the houthi nob jockies are now spouting in line with their Iranian backer’s instructions! Fuck all to do with Isreal/Palestine, all to do with Iranian influence and its efforts at disrupting the US and the Western allies dominance in the area. Notice that China are not involved, but just watching and Chinese merchant ships piggy backing on US/UK escorts!

Apparently, not quite right, the Chinese seem to have an invisible shield where they are just not targeted. Strange that.

Should there ever be a time to turn green, turn off oil imports and foxtrot Oscar Chinese imports at the high port, it is now.

We need to cast off mid East oil and Chinese imports. Rant over.

Still, broadening the focus, I find it interesting that China’s State owned COSCO Shipping is rumoured to be negotiating with the Houthis over a ”structured payment plan’. Declared reason is to get Houthis to allow Chinese-owned commercial vessels to trade unmolested with their markets.
If this is true:-
a) not aware Chinese State ships have been ‘unduly targetted’; b) think China would be somewhat humiliated to accede to a ‘protection racket’; c) is not exactly lacking in naval assets; d) has a naval facility in adjacent Djibouti.
On the other hand, any such payments, by inference considerable, would hardly represent unwelcome funding for the Houthis. Along with Iran, they utilise ex-Chinese missile designs, among many others, I understand. Either increases in these numbers, or even possible improvements in targeting / electronic warfare capability, could be handy in any escalation resulting from Western reaction.
Purely hypothetical, but I do like to speculate upon ‘what if’s’.

The major powers need to stop messing around in the region, whether it was the UK in the 50s, us / Soviets in the 60s and 70s or now the Chinese. Not to mention US blind support for isreal. Until all the powers stop messing around with the region, peace will never really happen.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Pull out and watch the other team take over for good.

Yeah, but the average paratrooper was thinking about Friday P.M. in the Ratpit… come on, admit it!

How do you know these things? 😂

X marks the spot, normally on both sides of your temporal lobes as no sane person would jump into combat.

Mad buggers, the lot of you; and really happy that you had the Rangers to look up to when you wanted to go from mad to full on berserker mode in Helmand.

I started with 4RIR in London – your lot and Them were across the Court Yard at Duke of Yorks from us Irish.

Beserker mode 😂! Duke of York barracks, sold off for a few million, big waste, decent reserve units moved on! Sigh the early start of selling off the defence estate mate!

Us Oirish have a reputation to uphold, FAB.

Not right on Duke of Yorks. It was land leased by the Earl Cadogan, the first Earl had established the Guards on the swamps of Birdcage Walk after some European war. Ennobled by a delightful King, Cadogan was proffered to Sir Hans Sloane’s daughter and upon marriage inherited one of the greatest Estates in London including the Kings Road down to World’s End ish.

Biggest mistake? Selling the Freehold to Harrods; not a mistake they would ever repeat.

Now, every Cadogan has served in the Coldstream Guards, bar Edward who with dyslexia decided he could not read a map and so could not graduate Sandhurst (Officers and maps, who knew???)… I met Edward in the Cadogan vaults and he is/was a really nice bloke – now the present Earl Cadogan, I wish him well.

Gerald Cadogan, his father, was more interested in money than service IMHO and when the Leasehold on Duke of Yorks came up the Army were turfed out and you now have what you have.

True dit. On duties, I stopped a Sgt of 21 leaving the Duke’s gates dressed in full rig with his lid on – some people deserve to get slotted – this was 1993/4 when the PIRA were blowing up parts of London…

Had no clue about that, the going’s on of the Rich and powerful 😂! Doesn’t surprise me about 21, if I’m honest mate, that’s another dit for another day….👍

Not based on any actual facts though, so just silly as I said.

I actually think you are right. They are trying to provoke the UK and US to launching a campaign in Yemen.
The Houthis want an escalation and wider conflict in the middle east.
Anything to draw away Western military forces and consume expensive hardware.
I wonder how much it would cost and how quickly the RN could replace all its DS30mm mounts for 40mm Bofors and how long it would take to fit a deck mounted Martlett launcher with 12-16 rounds to every single surface ship we have?
We need to go for more lethality and distributed kill chains so we can leave type 45 and type 26 for high end conflict and have a smaller more cost effective platform engage drones. However by launching cruise and antiship missiles amongst a wave of drones the Houthis are compelling the alliance to keep high end warships engaged in the area and tied down defending the shipping lanes. Not a problem if our fleet was 26+ high end escorts, it is a problem when we have 17 or actually more like 15 active warships and only 7 or 8 available at any one time.

Exactly!

Hi Paul, the Houthis have initiated the downward spiral you talked of!

Once again, the value of having RAF Akrotiri as a launch base has been well demonstrated. Made up for our not having a carrier in the area.

Will the mothballing of the LPDs, the resulting marginalisation of ‘the Royals’ and the scrapping/selling of yet 2 more frigates go ahead? Its looking like ‘a John Nott’ moment for the hapless Shapps.

I share your concerns, as do so many others here….. I do believe however that the two T23’s will be scrapped as they appear to be beyond economical or logical repair…. What a mess these elected folk create and leave behind…..😥

Yes, Argyll and Westminster were commissioned in 1991 and 1994 respectively. The first of class, HMS Norfolk, was commissioned in 1990.

Assuming a 25-year life, new frigates should have started to be commissioned from 2015, with Argyll and Westminster being replaced in 2016 and 2019 respectively.

But of course that didn’t happened and T26 and T31 programmes deliver later than those idealised, theoretical dates. What a mess, that’s for sure.

….and to go down to 9 elderly frigates. We will be lucky if 3 or 4 are available at any given time.

Indeed, Akrotiri is yet another great and valuable asset the Uk has around the World… Aden should have been another but alas, that’s another story.

I hadn’t heard there was some sort of plan to retain Aden as a UK Sovereign Base, back in the day. Interesting.

There wasn’t, it was just that If we had somehow managed to stay, Aden would have been a Fantastic Strategic Base.

Hi Graham, 3000 mile round trip. Impressive capability. I think the government has done well so far. Cameron sounds positively statesman like. Was always going to happen given the psychological ‘oneness’ of followers of Islam. I wonder if the Mullahs watch the Sopranos?
Hopefully the T45s will complete the PIP upgrade soon and BAe and Babcock can shave some time off the new frigates.

T45’s will not complete the PIP upgrade for many years, It’s just not remotely possible and the new Ships are on a pretty rigid production schedule….. Nothing short of WW3 will change anything anytime soon.

Too bad :-(. What’s going on with Agyll?

Beyond Economical Repair apparently…. not enough Crew, it’s all a mess, She’s been in Devonport for 18 months now.

I agree. Cameron is in his element. I read that a HMG spokesman said there would not be any more strikes. I find that hard to believe.

I agree we need the new frigates ASAP but the first are still a couple of years away – they should have been fielded from 2015 onwards in my opinion. Sea trials etc will take some time even if build speed is increased.

I think their range is double that of the Harriers, or there abouts, so they can be launched from the Arabian Sea. Yes I am a fan of the F35B, just wish we had many more, I’m also a huge fan of the Typhoon. What a fantastic aircraft .