A defence analyst has claimed that Scotland could generate £1.1 billion a year leasing Faslane back to the United Kingdom.
Trevor Royle has argued Scotland could follow what Iceland done for 50 years and lease the naval base back to the UK. Iceland leased an airbase to the United States for decades after becoming independent from Denmark.
In an article in the Sunday Times at the weekend, Royle said:
“Faslane is an extraordinary asset, but it will be the elephant in the room should Scotland gain independence in the immediate future.
This represents a challenge and an opportunity. Given the strategic importance of Faslane and the undoubted importance of submarines in modern naval operations, not least in intelligence gathering, why doesn’t Scotland follow Iceland’s example and lease the base to Nato, just as our northern neighbour did with the air force base at Keflavik — a crucial asset from 1949 until 2006? Under a bilateral agreement with America, Iceland provided the alliance with land and facilities as its main contribution. Operating under the title of the Iceland Defense Force — the host country does not possess an army — Keflavik emerged as a key asset in the Cold War. There were winners all round. For a country with a modest financial sector, Iceland benefited from the boom created by the US connection.
The nuclear issue could still prove a sticking point for all that the SNP did a U-turn over Nato membership in 2012 and for all that political parties have not been unknown to trim policy when it suits changed circumstances. I am opposed to nuclear weapons on grounds of cost, morality and lack of effectiveness, but an independent Scotland will not be so awash with cash that it can ignore an asset such as Faslane, which could attract a rental of £1.1bn a year. The SNP promises Faslane will be ‘a vibrant and sustainable conventional naval base’ but it makes no sense to house conventional naval forces in a modern, purpose-built base designed to operate nuclear submarines — and which newly independent country needs such an elaborate facility? Iceland makes do with three patrol vessels and smaller boats operated by 200 sailors.”
What about moving the base if Scotland leaves the UK?
If you’re reading this and are asking ‘Why not just move the base?’ then I’m sorry to say, it’s not that simple. Moving the base quickly isn’t an option, the facilities required don’t presently exist elsewhere in the UK.
Stuart Crawford, a retired regular officer in the Royal Tank Regiment and former SNP defence spokesman had previously said the lack of an alternative sites means Trident carrying submarines based at Faslane would take 20 to 25 years to remove.
She had recently returned to her home port, Faslane Naval Base, after a successful operational patrol.
He said:
“An independent Scotland cannot really sensibly insist on removal of the UK’s nuclear deterrent from its waters in the short to medium term. Therefore some pragmatic solution has to be adopted. The pragmatic solution is, in my opinion, to rent the Faslane nuclear facilities to the rest of the UK until such time as some other arrangement can be brought about.
If there is any chance of Scotland becoming an independent country in 2021, it would take the UK government at least 20 years to build the equivalent to the Faslane/Coulport facilities elsewhere in the UK.”
Mr Crawford added:
“It is the most emotive defence-related issue in the whole independence debate. The difficult thing for the SNP leadership would be selling this to the foot soldiers. The broad base of the independence movement is very much grounded in the CND movement. I am completely sympathetic to that. The SNP Government might look at this plan and say it doesn’t deliver our promise to remove Trident, but it would be the biggest bargaining chip that an independent Scotland could have.”
An SNP spokesperson said:
“The SNP does not support Trident either as part of the UK or in an independent Scotland. We have continually opposed the renewal of Trident at the cost of conventional and cyber defences and continue to do so. In 2014 the Scottish Government set out a responsible approach to the removal of Trident from Scotland and in the event of independence securing the speediest and safest withdrawal of nuclear weapons would be a priority for an SNP Scottish Government.”
As an unknowing but curious reader, could the facilities be replicated long term around Pembroke Dock and Milfird Haven?
What, relocate them to another country which could turn around and go independent somewhere down the line? If they move them, it’ll have to be to England. We can’t stab ourselves in the back
No. Both of these sites have been ruled out for environmental legislation and physical reasons. See Trident, Nowhere to Go at https://www.banthebomb.org/index.php/publications/reports/1427-trident-nowhere-to-go-revised-edition
Firstly I would imagine that if Scotland caused the break up of the UK there would be considerable acrimony and the rUK would be in no mood for such an arrangement. A quicker and better solution would be to relocate to a US facility. This could be achieved swiftly and at less cost and would be in line with existing close military co-operation with the USA
Barrow could be expanded to support the submarines, would be bad economics to invest 1 billion and jobs in a country that doesn’t want nuke subs?
Indeed Peter
It’s not the submarine basing that’s the issue, Devonport already does the Trident submarine refits and easily has the space and facilities to handle the sub fleet. The issue is with Coulport and it’s missile handling facility.
The reason we use Faslane is that it has quick and easy access to deep water . Barrow does not.
A better alternative would be Falmouth with the added advantage of being a big boost to the Cornish economy.
Agree Falmouth would work. I would be happy to pay more tax to ensure our own national defences are moved out of Scotland into rUK, whilst giving SNP ruled Scotland precisely nothing of my hard earned taxed £.
Me too…:)
Mister Bell, The SNP currently runs a minority administration in Edinburgh, kept in power by the Greens. It speaks as a political party, it does not speak for “Scotland”.
As a home-based Scot who is a UK tax-payer, I have no issue in my hard-earned salary being taxed by the UK Exchequer and used to support services in England – and elsewhere in the UK.
Posted in error. Deleted
Hello Alan. I was there for the first indy ref and I soon saw how the maniacs who ran that show spoke for themselves. Thatcher destroyed the Scottish Tories, not that she cared. In 1959 Scotland returned more Tory M.P.’s to Westminster than Labour. All those seats went to the S.N.P. who played a canny game depending on which constituency issues to pursue; I doubt even now those voters across the country are desperadoes or revolutionaries. Too many English think all Scots are rabid Nationalists. They are not; but neither are they going to be messed about. A shrewd government in the Kingdom would see how best to play this to their long term advantage. Throwing in a winning hand makes no sense whatsoever, and I trust that’s what many Scots will conclude.
@ Alan Reid – I fully agree with your point that the SNP is not Scotland by any stretch of the imagination. Well said.
But I would just gently point out that because all ‘domestic’ matters are devolved none of your taxes paid in Scotland go to England as such. Your taxes like mine do however fund non devolved UK matters like defence and foreign policy which do of course have benefit for England as well as Wales, Scotland and NI.
Actually Chris, if he pays tax in Scotland most of it does go to HMRC. It’s just that a chunk then finds its way back again.
Nevertheless. I would completely agree that getting Trident out of the Gareloch and Loch Long ASAP would be the smartest approach as the SNP are not trustworthy and would use any long-term lease as a lever at every opportunity. Also in initial divorce negotiations it’s one of the key cards they think they have to extract concessions. Swift removal would deny them that approach.
I suspect the lease of equipment and facilities from the US may be an option, moving to a tender and floating shiplift set up in the medium term at a suitable UK location before a more permanent solution is found.
Exactly.
Secondly(PC playing up so have to split post)-if any believe that the logistics of splitting from the EU will be complex and costly then the break up of a Union that started effectively over 400 years ago would be a nightmare. Duplication of armed forces, Embassies, infrastructure, institutions etc. and another cherry on top-how to split the 16 overseas territories that are BRITISH-not E I W or S! Then there would be a hard Border with the rUK as Scotland would of course re-join the EU!
The simple answer Geoff is to remain in the EU and take the wind out of the SNPs sails!
Agree Herodotus and it solves the Irish problem at the same time. I have genuinely been on the fence about Brexit for a long time and cannot make up my mind which way is better. I would prefer to stay in and fight for change from within but then again I think Brexit would create opportunities for the UK but(and I should not give in to these feelings) I am angered by the EU’s stance which effectively makes it almost impossible to leave other than by a No Deal situation. For me the solution is a Second referendum. This is undoubtedly the most important decision to have faced the UK for decades and it deserves a confirmation.
I concur with your views entirely! I think that there is considerable pressure within the EU to ‘hold the ship’ together. By making Brexit as bloody as possible, they will effectively deter other nations from taking the same path. This could be an existentialist issue for the EU. Stay in the EU and give ’em’ what for!
“Making Brexit as bloody as possible” is exactly why the UK must leave this vile little eu empire. These could be words from the 19th Century.
Well, the EU it is neither vile nor little! And the stance of the EU is understandable whilst being regrettable. If you want to look for blame…try Cameron! As the Queen pointed out…our politicians don’t seem able to govern!
The EU’s mandate has expanded far beyond what we joined into. It is vile and its never going to the USA, no matter how much politicians in Germany and France want it to be… They don’t even spend properly on defence which underpins much of the US strength! Honestly the pair are worse than us and are trying to make a superstate out of the EU and that’s wrong. You cannot blame David Cameron for that and you cannot blame British people for not wanting a part to play in the system.
Mate, I am really hacked off by the EU’s attitude and stance. Partially I believe to deter anybody else from even thinking about leaving. I’d be more than happy to go back to the fundamentals behind the common market when it was first formed. But now it has become a political power struggle to be a “United Europe”. As soon as Blair and Brown signed up to closer ties and integration pretty much handcuffed us to the EU. In some ways this is just a typical divorce and clearly getting less and less amicable. I really don’t see what benefit holding a second referendum will achieve. If anything I believe people, by and large, have seen how arrogant and belligerent the EU have been with us, thus cementing and entrenching the Nation’s views.
Whichever way we turn, the no deal is fast becoming the only route available. Which will be bad politically for everyone. Who really knows how it will play out commercially, as it hasn’t been done before, so it’s all new ground with claims and counter claims of either recession or expansion. With a no deal, the Republic of Ireland is in the s**t, as the majority of their imports/exports travel through the UK. Thereby they will incur massive levies if they go through the UK or require the goods to complete the journey by sea, again pushing up costs.
This will be the same for Scotland, everything will have to travel by sea if the don’t want it taxed going through the UK. Have the SNP really and I mean really, thought the process through with independence? Everyone in Scotland will require a new passport. But more problematical everyone from Scotland will require a visa to work/live in the UK. How much of the population born in Scotland actually live there rather than in England, Wales or NI? Do we send everyone back to Scotland without a permit? The list of questions is endless and I hate standing on the soapbox, so I’ll stop.
With regards to the nuke deterrent, Devonport in the short term has the capabilities to host the boats, but a better long term solution will be required. Especially as every man and his dog can see what’s going on in Devonport.
It is more likely that a no-deal Brexit will mean no Brexit. A reasonable deal with the EU would have ensured that Brexit actually happened. I think that the Brexiteers in Parliament may well have shot themselves in the foot. They might come to regret rejecting Theresa May’s deal! As far as the SNP are concerned, I don’t think Scottish Independence is any more risky than no deal Brexit.
@ herodatus – Keep dreaming. Get used to the idea that no matter what tricks our Remainer Parliament try to pull now we are leaving on 31st October with or without a deal.
We all know the Remainer tactics: They say its about ‘no deal’ but that is a charade, a false image for their real intent which is to revoke Article 50. They know that by removing ‘No deal’ off the table that will entrench the EU’s views and so they can peddle more Project Fear Mk 83 crap. And they have the support of most of the MSM, the BBC, Ch 4, SKY UK etc etc. The BBC produces an anti Brexit story every day. 2 days ago we were being told that a hard border in Ireland will mean NI cannot move its milk (like the rUK does not consume milk?) and so 30,000 cattle will be culled. The same day they were also peddling the Green agenda and saying that we must stop eating meat and cull cows because their farts are causing climate change.
In those immortal words of Littlejohn:
“You could not make this sh*t up!”
But Remainer sh*t we have to deal with and you just peddled a goodly set of examples.
Don’t count your chlorinated chicken’s Chris. I’m sure that your paranoia about the media is well founded…in the USA that is! I am pleased that you are keeping an open mind over a no-deal Brexit.
@ Herodatus – Bang straight in with the Chlorine trigger phrase! How pathetic. Is that the best you have? Best not eat any EU sourced salads because they are washed in chlorine, the water you drink has chlorine added and of course every swimming pool has chlorine added. For hygiene reasons. And of course who was it shipped horsemeat labelled as beef to us? Not the USA methinks. And you do know where some European spuds are grown? In sewage treated land. Enjoy!
Unlike you Remainers I have had an open mind about the EEC and the EU since 1972. And why I voted remain in ’75 and Leave in 2016. Give it another 38 years and you might change your mind. Oh wait no ….
Actually Chris, I thought the chlorinated chicken phrase was rather good…I expect that you did really too! If it is any comfort, I voted to remain in 1975 as well…and so did 67% of the electorate. A real democratic choice…not a cheap couple of percentage points as in 2016. An advantage gained through downright lies and misrepresentation that was focussed on a section of the electorate that felt disenfranchised by a lousy government! Tell you what, lets have a second referendum on the issue…it would solve many of the issues that confront us. Well, what are you afraid of?
@ Herodatus – No the chicken comment was a trigger to draw discussion away from your lauding of the betrayal of democracy to defy Scots their right to a democratic vote. So it was many things but not in any way ‘clever’. More like too clever by half.
I see you are again trying to divert the debate without answering why you think its a good idea to betray democracy. OK but others can see the tricks you Remainers deploy. The decision to Leave the EU was by a margin of 4% (52 to 48) which is not a ‘couple’. That is 2. they weren’t cheap at all. the Government alone spent a dubious £9 Mn peddling a pack of lies and threats in that leaflet we all got. So sorry the snide remarks don’t work. Again.
“An advantage gained through downright lies and misrepresentation that was focused on a section of the electorate that felt disenfranchised by a lousy government!”
Blimey now who sounds like a martyr? You really are a sore (or is that sad) loser…. what goes round comes round.
I am not afraid of you or anyone else Old Son. I waited 41 years for the 2nd EU referendum so you can wait another 38 for the 3rd. And since when is it democratic to have another vote before the first vote from 2016 is enacted? Oh wait sorry … you don’t do ‘democracy’ do you unless it suits your agenda. And what if we vote Leave again? Do we keep voting as Jo Swinson wants until we deliver the ‘right’ vote? She won’t accept any Leave vote at all. So why bother with another vote? You will all just keep whingeing, lying and misrepresenting. Oh and abusing.
If there is a vote and its Remain we will of course have to make it ‘best of 3’ right?
#FacePalm
I know the next time we have a GE and the party I vote for doesn’t win lets just wipe it away and have another? After all according to the Swinson School of Logic Manchester City didn’t win the Premiership as all the other clubs combined had more points……
As I said … You couldn’t make this sh*t up …
Chris….like many of your fellow brexiteers….you are completely deluded. Overcome by emotion…unable to square your gut feelings with reality! Which, of course, is the realm of extreme politics. Many people felt like you in the 1930s….and look where it ended! I challenge you again…if you think that you and your ilk are so bloody right…put it to the country. As the blessed Margaret said….what’s the matter, are you fritt!
@ Herodatus – Oh look the sanctimonious fool projects yet more sarcastic crap:
* No delusion Sweetcheeks as I am on the winning side. You are deluded you think you won and can stop Brexit.
* No emotion either. Well apart from sniggers at your puerile jottings.
* I am perfectly OK with reality which is that we are leaving on 31st October. As is written into two Statutes – The Article 50 Act and the EU Withdrawal Act.
* Because I disagree with you I am engaged in ‘extreme politics’? Dear God now who is the deluded soul out of touch with reality? Nice try at sarcastic projection again though. Shame its crap.
* Yes nice try again at projecting a falsehood. Your confirmation bias must in overdrive but yes I noted your inference I am a Nazi. So screw you.
* Now you show your selective memory – we HAD a vote. it was in June 2016 and we decided to leave the EU. No further vote is needed. The decision was requested of us by Parliament, we gave that decision and they triggered Article 50. So what point another vote?
* Your short attention span is really bad now. As I said before when you accused me of being frightened – no I am not frightened of you or anyone else. Again nice try at projecting a falsehood
So once again all you have done is eloquently demonstrate the self righteous superior attitude of the Remainer. You people never engage in factual discussion because you don’t do facts and if you did you would lose every time. No all you do is project the most abusive and disgusting crap you can while thinking its ‘really clever’ and feeling ever so smug. It isn’t and you are just looking the verbal moron you are.
What is going on at Devonport?
There is no way on earth all of the SSNs and SSBNs will go into Devonport unless you know of somewhere mysterious.
Why not, in the past we had most of our subs there, they have the infrastructure to repair the Vanguard class and their keyside is mostly underused.
I agree, the Northern basin can be dredged for SSBNs to be alongside. Convert the berths to X berths. Build a shiplift shed at Ernesettle. Upgrade for storage of warheads. Will see me into retirement 🙂
Totally with u, I voted remain but having seen there arrogant attitude I’m now a brexiter. Don’t want no deal but if they push us they going to get a surprise. Why can’t we just have a Canadian or Swiss deal? Oh yeah because they are terrified if we make a go of it Italy and Greece follow. Can any one tell me what’s wrong going back to a real common market.
Thanks for comprehensive reply Davey
@ Davey B – I meant to compliment your post earlier but got sidetracked by someone. You just about captured everything that needs saying and I fully agree. Well said.
@ Herodatus – “The simple answer Geoff is to remain in the EU and take the wind out of the SNPs sails!”
Wrong. That is neither simple nor right by any measure. We have voted to leave the Eu and leave we must. With or without a deal. That is the law of the land as specified in the Article 50 Act and the EU Withdrawal Act which both set out the date of leaving as March 29th (subsequently amended in law to the 31st October).
And to argue we must betray British democracy to deny the Scots their democratic rights is just an amazingly ignorant contradiction. I am a Brexiteer of some 20+ years now but if Scotland wish to leave the UK they have the right to such a vote (as they did in 2014) and I will defend that right as much as I defend MY right to have my vote respected. As was promised in that £9 Mn leaflet we all had and as promised in the 2017 GE where 80% of the electorate supported the two main manifestos that promised to respect that referendum result.
Having said that of course I must observe that the SNP and Remainers like yourself share common values apparently. You are both happy to ignore referendum results you lost and therefore dislike. Two peas in the anti democratic pod.
But how can ANY democrat argue the point you just made?
What a pompous load of claptrap. Why is it that when Brexiteers speak of upholding democracy that they sound like martyrs that have endured the Spanish Inquisition? Happily, your missive is the sort of nonsense that everyone can ignore with impunity.
@ herodatus – Well as usual no reference to any points made let alone sensible discussion. You provide just the usual Remainer sarcasm and projections to suit your confirmation bias.
At the risk of getting into Monty Python sketches with Cardinal Fang (which i suspect is far more fun) where exactly was the inferred martyrdom in anything I said? Nowhere. Just your need to project a sarcastic put down. Well keep trying Old Son its water of a duck’s back to me after 3+ years of you Remainers’ throwing crap. ITs OK we understand its all you have left. Bless.
Yo write:
“that everyone can ignore ignore”
And then promptly do NOT ignore it. Outsatnding duplicity!
And I know this may offend your evidently huge ego and self righteous superiority but you do NOT (as you fabricate) speak for ‘everyone’. Indeed given we are still the majority, as last June proved, after 3+ years lets say ‘not everyone’. Possibly not even ‘some’. Its what Remainers do.
I was comparing your ability to betray democracy over Brexit to defy someone else’s right to a democratic vote and I was defending THEIR rights as well as mine. I guess the subtlety of the argument went over your head. never mind someone will explain it for you. It speaks volumes for your hypocrisy…
Dear me…’it’s all water off a ducks back’….clearly it isn’t…you seem rather exercised! Tell me Chris, when you pass on, who will be God’s next representative at the table of democracy? If I can point you back to my comment ‘that everyone can ignore’ …this was the last comment and I added nothing further….so my statement was sound!
@ Herodatus – and meaningful and relevant comment was there still none ….
Because your sarcastic abuse means sod all to me don’t confuse that with my not enjoying nailing your comments for what they are. And in any case I mostly reply so others can see your nonsense for what it is. Remainers like you add nothing to discussions and just divert everything on to personal comments and irrelevant crap. Like ‘chlorinated chicken’. Precisely what THAT had to do with the Scots right to an Indyref beats me …..
@ Geoff – There would be no issue for British assets abroad as they and the territories would remain British. Nothing costly for the rUK at all. It is Scotlandshire that will have to sort their new foreign, defence and other currently non devolved policies as well as a currency, central bank and establish a credit rating. Of course it would also need to show how it will fund its 8% share of the current £1.8 Trn National debt to which it adds some £15 Bn a year.
Sadly you peddle the ‘hard border’ as if its a given just as all remainers do about the Irish border. It is not. Now while I care not one jot if Scotland stays or goes I presume sensible heads will prevail as they will not be immediately subsumed into the EU fold and their intransigence. So I am sure we will establish a Free Trade Deal and if not there will still be no need for border infrastructure even under WTO Rules. Just as there is not (for Customs purposes) any need for Irish border infrastructure. In the 21st Century we can do it all online (and trust me I did this for over 20 years) as we do now with two currencies, two VAT rates, two different agrifood structures and a different power system.
While it bemuses me that the SNP demand independence from a 400 year old Union it will then apply to give away said independence to the 27+ year old EU. Quite extraordinary. But if they did well still no need for a ‘Hard Border’.
I have never regarded Scottish Nationalism as anything other than a legitimate set of beliefs even though I am a fervent Unionist but one has to believe that there has been and is ongoing some serious stirring up of bad feeling between the four nations by extreme Nationalists and Foreign nations who would benefit from the break up and weakening of the UK
Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t the Sovereign bases on Cyprus a condition of independence there? So there is a solution on the shelf, it seems.
Has an independent Scotland any desire to join NATO? I would have thought that a Nuclear disarmament agenda and NATO would be a clash.
Better RoUk moved the whole thing south. The building of new base would be a massive boast for jobs in the UK. Combined with the ongoing running of the new base in the UK which is worth 270m the economy. Employees would be better off as Tax in the RoUK is also lower.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/fact-check-many-jobs-depend-faslane/
Absolute rubbish. Sorry to get political, but Scotland had a vote and voted to stay ( of which I was happy about ). There is no chance the rest of the Union would base all of our nuclear subs and infrastructure in a foreign country. Especially one which keeps saying no to Trident. We keep getting these tinpot ideas about splitting our country up , just so some little politician can build there own fan club and power base. They don’t give a **** about this fantastic country that has taken 300 years to build or about the people that had died to protect it.
Well said. With regard to my earlier remarks about Scottish Nationalism-the belief in an Independent Scotland is legitimate and the Democratic right of those Scots who pursue such an end. I had a close friend who was a Nat in the 1960’s when it had minimal support. His beliefs never interfered with our friendship. If the sorry day should ever arise when it happens I will become spiritually stateless but I would hope that we can persuade people that we really are better together as happened in Quebec where from a 50:50 knife edge the canadian nation is now supported by 70% of Quebeckers
Well said
Lee, you’ve hit the nail on the head. A handful of politicians in Westminster care much more about their own individual interests and ambitions than those of this country. That is putting the Union at risk and has the potential to radically change the country in which we live.
And whilst I loathe the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, the one thing I’d say about his lot is that at least they’re acting out of a genuine conviction and a belief the UK would be better off outside the U.K. The most despicable individuals are those who are using Brexit for their own selfish interests. The PM would have been leading the charge for Remain if it had been in his interests and gotten him into No.10.
@ Lee – Back of the proverbial net Sir … Well said.
If there is another Scottish referendum then it should be held after Brexit and when they know fully what it means to be outside of the EU within the UK. IMO this would be 3 to 4 years after the event. Only then can anyone really get an idea of what it is like and make an informed choice.
I voted remain in the Brexit ref but do not support another ref on that topic. There is obviously a large part of the country that wants it and they will not give up until it happens. Only then can we move forward together, possibly rejoining in 10 years or so if it doesn’t work out (if they want us). By then the Brexiteers will likely be silenced. Another ref would just be more divisive than the last.
As for Faslane, the rUK cannot have its nukes on foreign soil so a new facility is the only answer. Choice between leasing Faslane in the short term or re basing in the US, depending on the terms of each.
Sod off Scotland
no way should we hand a benefit to them if they choose to be independent.
It would be a major headache for the Uk to find a base else where, but that we must do and let Scotland get on without any help from us
Hi Peter. I understand your anger but let us remember the SNP does not speak for all of Scotland so maybe better-Sod off SNP! 🙂
Agree. I find the the comment that the articles author links the SNP with the CND telling. Weren’t the CND heavily infiltrated by Soviet intelligence? Probably says something about the SNP today likely.
I remember a TV talk show between a lady representing the CND and a Tory politico on the Disarmament issue. The guy defending the Nuclear Deterrent made a really bad job of it. If I had been there I would have asked two questions-do you think Russia, China etc. will EVER give up their Nukes and if the answer is No then who would protect the UK from Nuclear blackmail in a world where for example the USA abandons it’s role as the Global Cop.
Well said, I have never seen CND camping outside the American, Russian, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, French or Israeli embassies who have officially stated they have nukes.
Too young to remember Greenham Common then. I think that there is still a small presence nearby….sort of a life-style choice!
@ Herodatus – Greenham Common was an RAF base used by the Yanks. It was not an embassy which was the point DaveyB was making. Joke is there were more nukes further west up the M4 at RAF Welford. You won’t see a sign for it but there is one for ‘Works Unit Only’ which isn’t actually there.
Can’t say why I know this of course …
Ha! The famous M4 red “Works Unit” sign.
You see that driving London bound that is how one knows!
The legend of the nukes at Welford has done the rounds for years. Supposedly CND were in the wrong place all along.
Not sure about that myself when you see the lack of actual SSA bunkers there.
I think it more likely they were at RAF Woodbridge and RAF Bentwaters.
Yeah mate it’s those SNP idiots! I’m Scottish, and I’m pro British just like most of my friends, some of my family and none of my enemy’s. People forget Scotland voted to stay part of the UK and it was once in a generation vote, we won’t vote again or leave anytime soon I can guarantee that no matter what that slippery fish sturgeon says. Please Hate the SNP just like many Scots do and not Scotland ???
@ Cam – An excellent post to differentiate between ‘SNP’ and ‘Scotland’. Yes I do despise what the SNP stand for which is the destruction of a 400 year old Union that has served us all so very well with no downsides whatsoever. But I do not have any bad feelings about Scotland let alone hatred for the Scots. Until we play them at Rugby. I think they are a bit daft to keep supporting the SNP as they do because they are also a very poor Government that wastes money to give benefits to Scots that are denied English, Welsh and Irish British people. Its a deliberately divisive policy. But such is their democratic right which I will defend anytime.
It is this same argument I keep putting to Remainers when they peddle the lie we Brexiteers hate Europe and Europeans. We do not and I certainly rejoice in the diversity of languages and culture across Europe (which is of course bigger than the EU but that seems to go over Remainers’ heads). But I am at the front of the queue in my hatred for how the EU was created and what it has become and more importantly where it is heading. Again like the SNP it is the politics, methods and ambitions I hate not the people they rule.
I make the point elsewhere that there is an uncanny similarity between the SNP over the Independence referendum and the Remainers over the EU Referendum. They both got defeated in a democratic vote. Both refuse to accept the result. Both seek to fabricate reasons it was invalid. Both use every political means possible to force another vote and tell us ‘we didn’t realise what we were voting for’. They are despicably deceitful peas in the same anti-democratic pod. To hell with them both.
What about the Cyprus solution and maintain sovereign enclaves.
I think the problem would be access would still be through Scottish territorial waters. But the concept of an enclave is sound if the SNP was willing to so a deal which I doubt.
The referendum on Scottish departing the UK was in 2014. It is not going to be run again ”for a generation”.
No matter how much wee nippie jumps up and down the fact is the UK remains a complete country and talk of splitting it up is simply a tactic (one of many) of remainers to ”scare” us all back to changing our minds about leaving the EU.
You remind me of Stalin’s strange decision on receiving RAF PR photos of the German build-up in occupied Poland. It’s a British trick.
Be careful, that is not a tunnel ahead…it’s just been painted on a brick-wall. Oops, too late!
Please can you explain how the Scottish Government can legally undertake a referendum without a section 30 order given by the UK Government?
Prior to that being given, UK Parliament would have to vote for this – and the Conservatives are not going to do that as far as I am aware.
I understand the sentiment – but the reality is we are governed by law and this must be in place prior to another referendum taking place. Unless we take the Putin approach.
I think that your question ought to be directed at Ms Sturgeon….I neither want, nor have advocated, another Scottish Independence referendum. I was merely pointing out that, for some, every potential problem on the horizon is down to remainer scare-mongering.
Fair enough – my point is that in this case it is scare mongering as the actual reality is a referendum on Scottish independence is not really on the table -but the story promulgates only because it is something for remainers to gather behind.
I was in Scotland for the last referendum and that is the last thing we need and to be honest I think beyond the 35% hardcore there is little appetite for running that again.
Who knows what sort of deal Corbyn and Sturgeon might cook up if, as has been widely mooted, there is a general election in the autumn. We are moving into uncharted territory!
With all the issues with Brexit it would inevitably mean that should Scotland ever get another opportunity to re-visit this issue both sides will want to hammer out the withdrawal agreement and future relationship before any vote. On Defense the remaining countries will want to ensure that their defense is not compromised and that Scotland actively defend their land in force, are part of NATO, 2-3% GDP etc. etc. for at least the next 100 years. The Scots are a proud nation and would not in my opinion be interested in being compared militarily to Iceland.
I think I read that if Independence happened then Scotland would have some 2 or 3 regiments, 3 MCMVs and 2 T23s plus a squadron of fighters.
The problem would be who would support those units?
More to the point who would man them?
Most people I know on Scottish based MCMVs cannot wait to get away from the place!
How many people would stay in a Scottish Defence Force with little prospect of promotion, to few units and no where to go other than tours of the Highlands and Islands.
I can see these and probably many more problems. Their issue would be treaties committing to a certain level of defense. They might even need to compensate the remainder of the UK if they fail to do so and/or the rest of NATO needs to prop them up. This flies in the face of any ideas Scotland might get that others will defend them and they can charge them for the privilege. The reasons for the Iceland exception are well known. Independence comes at a price for everyone they should understand its unlikely to benefit them financially in fact possibly it might be quite the reverse.
Wonderful way to incentivise the rest of the UK to relocate their facilities
Pointless debate as no sane U.K. prime minister will ever give permission for another Scottish independence referendum. And if the SNP ignore the law and hold one anyway… we’ll we saw how successful that was in Catalonia.
Agree about withholding another referendum. How long has the Union lasted ? So perhaps they can have another ref in a few hundred years. I find it interesting that no one thinks about why the Union came about – err wasn’t it something to do with Scotland being bust. Oh and who bailed them out ….. mmm I wonder……
Scotland joined the Union in 1707 as they were bankrupt.
England joined as Queen Ann wanted to remove the threat of a Jacobite rebellion after she died. She wanted Scotland to accept the Hanoverian line. So it was a win-win. The best type of treaty.
Plus in the years that followed the Union Scottish trade boomed. A lot of rich Scottish people.
I can only see an economic downside to Scottish independence. One island one country.
Yes the Scottish middle and upper-classes were bankrupted by the disasteroud Darien Scheme in Central America. One of the conditions of Union was England taking on the debt…. And then a few hundred years later the Bank of England has to step in and bail out Royal Bank of Scotland.
As the French say, “plus ca change, plus ca meme chose”…
I think a large part of the reason we are having to discuss the breakup of the UK is down to government being too London centric imo. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all fairly poor regions who have lacked funding and support to develop their local economies. This is why we now see places such as Scotland see the relationship with the EU as more important than the union as they gain more from it. It should be the other way round, with the EU being an added extra.
It has also happened within England, with many northern and midlands towns and cities being a shadow of their former selves. I also think bringing prosperity to Northern Ireland could help immensely with their political/religious issues. Poverty always deepens divisions that might otherwise be forgotten when enjoying the fruits of economic success.
If we want to save our union, which I very much do, we must give the other regions needs much more importance and help them build specific key industries that do not compete against one another ie – Scotland as a big green energy player and ship building. By giving the different parts of the UK high tech specialisms we can all work together to spread the wealth and be greater than our sum of parts again. As it is now, I can’t really blame them for seeing greener grass elsewhere.
I do agree. Even when living in a town only 40 minutes outside of London, with most of my relatives working there, i certainly fill that are government only seems to care about London and London only.
Good point. Boris seems to get this and is trying to say so with his talk of coastal powerhouses etc. How effective he will be is debatable and of course any money allocated will only benefit England unless there is buy-in from the devolved administrations. I personally am always keen to listen to anyone who wants to roll their sleeves up and sort out these problems. I just hope there is effective action to follow because as you say it would sort many problems for all of us.
T.S
“This is why we now see places such as Scotland see the relationship with the EU as more important than the union as they gain more from it. It should be the other way round, with the EU being an added extra”.
As a counterpoint, from a home-based Scot: most of us don’t see the relationship with the EU as more important than that with the United Kingdom. Two-thirds of Scotland’s trade is with the rest of the UK (the EU comprises only about 15% of our trade).
We all have some issues with central government in London, but Scots have a disproportionate influence in the fifth largest economy in the world, and as such, punch above our weight in European councils. Will our interests still be as protected as the 28th country in the EU? Some separatists think London is a long way away – but I’ve checked the map, Brussels, Paris and Berlin are a long bus journey!
Personally, I don’t favour Brexit – although there are about one million Brexiters in Scotland, mostly under-represented by the Scottish political class.
Based on some conversations with Scottish separatists, it unlikely a newly independent Scotland would rejoin the EU on the terms probably offered.
I agree with the First Minister’s opposition to Brexit, but she is also using the situation as a vehicle to engineer separation – and hardly being subtle about it! Also very disappointing to see a British Prime Minister recently booed in Edinburgh by a small SNP rent-a-mob.
Good to debate with you.
Alan, good to know a large number of Scots still value the union. My statement is of course my own interpretation of the current situation and would not speak for all or even necessarily the majority of Scots. I think I should have added a ‘probably’ in front of more important! I am not a Scot and am therefore going on my impression which is feed by the media, and there appears to be an increase in those wanting independence and who are unhappy to be leaving the EU. My observation is that Scotland appears to Be far more socialist than England and that maybe a combination of lack of wealth sharing AND a more similar political outlook with the EU is driving this increase in support to leave us.
Hi T.S,
EU membership has never really featured greatly in Scottish political consciousness (IMHO). We’re much more exercised by our relationship with London (always have been) – than Brussels. It’s why Ms Sturgeon has struggled to gain much leverage with the Brexit issue in Scotland.
North of the border, the Labour vote has collapsed; today our politics appears much more about identity (Unionist-v-Separatist), than political ideas like socialism. It’s a phenomenon that has seen the renaissance of the Conservative party in Scotland.
My mothers a Highlander, Im a Londoner, Scotland is a fantastic, beautiful place, with lots of good people, intelligent people. Great history. Plus the Fringe too. I don’t want them to leave the Union, as they have made significant contributions to the Union for over 200 years. Not least during conflicts. But Im sick of hearing about how they want to leave and am at the point of giving up asking them to stay. If they want to go, then go. But you’re get nothing from us, those you leave, left in the Union. Nothing. That includes no Faslane, no RAF stations, no Army posts, no more investments in infrastructure. I don’t want a penny of tax money to go to Scotland if they leave. Use all that money to invest in Davenport, Barrow, and other locations. The SNP and that wee woman are driving this split. They and she should look at how the EU has treated the Uk for a model of what will happen if they leave. The SNP and its independence movement are acting as obliviously as Cameron and may did regarding the UK EU relationship. Sorry for the rant, but I’m not going to pay any rent to the SNP.
So whilst we are angry at the way the EU are treating us when we want to leave, we would then do the same to Scotland? I personally would want to make sure that if Scotland did decide to leave us that we could remain the closest of friends. In order for it to work with minimal pain, Scotland would probably require a fair amount of good will and understanding from us, and in some ways, us from them. For me that would include financial and practical assistance whilst they get themselves set up.
We have to be really careful we don’t isolate ourselves further in the world. We have burnt bridges within the commonwealth due to a lack of focus on them during our European escapade, we will likely be out of favour across much of Europe for some time, especially when the row’s really kick off after no deal. we seem to have a love hate relationship with the states that could tip either way in the blink of an eye, and then potentially fall out with Scotland our neighbour as well?
Sorry TS disagree totally. Red line in the sand. Scotland votes for independence any time in the next 10 years then they should receive precisely zero support from rUK. Like the EU you are either in the UK or out.
No you cannot use sterling, no we will not base any of our military there, no we will not give you any subsidies. A hard border, import taxes etc will have to be paid. That is the hard reality of any independence vote
Mr Bell, I’m afraid you’re in danger of acting as an unpaid recruiting sergeant for Scottish separatists! LOL
I support the union, as my posts have demonstrated – but a potential divorce like you describe would not be in the interests of the rUK, anymore than Scotland.
Incidentally, Sterling is only a means of exchange, not an economic asset. In general terms, there is nothing to stop an independent Scotland (or another country) using Sterling – although certainly holding the currency reserves to support such a policy would be challenging.
Anyway, such a day is not one that I wish to see!
Interesting thing here is that Brexit and Scottish Independence are being discussed here – and the comments made by non-Scots could just as easily apply to how non-Brit EU citizens think. In other words, the deal you get when you leave is going to be far worse than what you’ve got now. For Scotland leaving the UK I think it would be worse than for the UK leaving the EU – Scotland depends a lot more on the UK than the UK depends on Europe.
To lease something don’t you have to own it? I’m pretty sure this is a MOD site, therefore, the property of the MOD, not a fictional Scottish independent government.
So the SNP dont want nuclear weapons in Scotland…..oh but they are happy to have them based there if the rUK pays them. Or alternatively, as said before, rUK pulls out of Scotland. Bye bye Barnet formularly, bye bye uk taxpayers propping you up and paying for services not available freely in rUK.
Upto the Scottish voters. Believe the poison little witch that is NS or remain with the uk as a united kingdom. Definetly cannot have it both ways.
As Rob Young said above, just take that argument and apply it to the UK/EU situation and you can see why the EU are intransigent.
We share an island so if the Scots do decide to leave that does not change. From a defence perspective it makes sense to be as close to them as possible, so yes that would likely mean support from the rUK. After all, our north flank and the Russian’s access to the Atlantic are really only defend-able with the Scot’s assistance. That would likely mean both financial support for a while and military cooperation, including basing assets north of the border if possible.
So Skybolt was cancelled on 11 Dec 1962, yet nuclear strike responsibilities transferred from the RAF to the RN Polaris fleet on 1 July 1969. So six & a half years. So we could build a Trident base in Cumbria within six & a half years if we had to.
So pay a rent to the Scots for six & a half years. Take it out of their share of the national debt. They are about 10% of the population, so 10% of £1.8 trillion is 180 billion. The rent should knock £7 billion off that. Still leaves £173 billion owing.
Move the trident subs to the USA if Scotland gains independence. The rental costs will be minimal and actually locating them close to where the ballistic missiles are refurbished might lead to significant cost savings. However, decommissing costs associated with the subs and Faslane will be shared…that will be pretty much wipe out the chance of having the SNP run Faslane as a naval base (whatever that means to the SNP). The SNP are living in fantasy land as per usual. They will be lucky to run three patrol vessels..There is no appetite in Scotland for independence whatever the polls say…maybe some Scots might think that after watching the braveheart movie with Mel Gibson but in reality the Scots, the English, the Welsh and Ireland (before the 1920s) made the most successful union on the face of the planet. Therefore, most Scots will reject the SNP in terms of independence. I strongly respect their very poor track record of running Scotland will also catch up with them soon too.
Consider our national security and its primary interest is our main land, i would rather the subs based a few hundred miles north of the border in a crisis than having them a few thousand in the US.
Take out the whole nationality mentality and emotions from the story and it actually makes a lot of sense. If Scotland decided to go independent, this could be a good solution for both sides, at least for a period.
I doubt the Royal Navy would want to share their nuke missile base with other NATO members though as it would compromise the secrecy around the place, but if its that or not having a base it is probably an acceptable compromise.
“Sovereign Base Area” as in Cyprus. The Westminster parliament will do the dictating here, and the impecunious Scots will have to put up with receiving most of the Faslane wage bill. If we leave Faslane, that idiot Sturgeon will threaten to offer it to the Russians. In that case, Scottish independence might be very short-lived.
Where does one begin?
The S.N.P. has tried and failed to get Independence. The S.N.P. is not Scotland. The Scots are no more pro-C.N.D. than the rest of the U.K. Iceland was ‘occupied’ by Great Britain in 1940. It’s facilities were handed over to the U.S.A. as a price for Lease Lend in 1942. Iceland’s ‘boom’ ended in a catastrophic financial disaster. Am I the only person around here who reads the press?
How does one answer anyone who simultaneously holds the view that nuclear weapons are morally repugnant but sees a chance to make cash on the back of the r.U.K.’s deterrent?
The Scottish Nationalists I have read on the subject of defence clearly demonstrated that an Independent Scotland (Republic?) would have a defence posture against the r.U.K. the whole point of Independence to those, admittedly fanatics, I spoke to living and working in Scotland.
Faslane is naturally uppermost in the minds of readers of this site; it would be a smaller part of any protracted negotiations any break-up, should that occur. The position of the Crown would be first and foremost, Scotland’s international entitlements deriving from being part of the U.K. (e.g. leverage in the United Nations; borrowing terms on the international markets and so forth) and would need a lot of goodwill from England to achieve anything like the status it currently enjoys and possibly – probably – could kiss goodbye to on breaking the Union.
Taking any Nationalist anywhere at their word is fraught with the same problem. The sentiments won’t carry over as easily into reality as all that.
As someone moved to tears at the sound of the pipes in a lonely glen, I can understand the pull the country has on the imagination. But a cold eyed look at reality even for a few minutes, shows Scotland and Scots have done a huge amount since the 19th century with little beyond self belief because, like others, they learned and learned well how to swim in a Anglosphere ocean and provided the United Kingdom with outstanding personalities. I rely on their noted common sense to see where they are better off.
So Scotland leaves the UK and part of the SNP argument to win over the Scottish vote is they don’t want nukes on their soil. Scotland then joins the EU, with no veto They will have to join on the EU’s terms. Could then end up participating in the EU army, which could commit them to having nukes on their soil if the EU commanders dictated that in times of crisis it was necessary for the defence of Europe. Not an unlikely scenario that could emerge imo. The irony of SNPs vision of independence.
I have a bit of an issue with this article
To float the idea that Scotland could earn money is pretty bad. What should happen is Scotland needs to fund its replacement, just like the UK has to pay its commitments to the EU
close it down, yurn the site into a giant car park
The issue has nothing to do with moving from Faslane to Falmouth (Non starter). Yes Faslane gives access to deep water before they are out of the loch. The issue is the storage of the missiles. There is a viable alternative site, its just not in the UK !!!. The leasing of Faslane to NATO is laughable, nobody would want it, it serves no purpose other than for in the case of scotland leaving the UK, British Submarines basing from there – why would they, scotland has decided to go it alone with its huge industry of whiskey and shortbread. So they can defend themselves with 1 type 23 and a couple of OPV’s. The P-8 wil be moved south of the border and scotlands second biggest emploer – the MOD – wont be there
Barrow no good as hugely tidal so restricts access. Probaly Isle of man would be better, but logistics is an issue there. Northern island better base for the hunters as the bombers will be outside the UK with all the facilities all ready in place now, so could be out of scotland in a few months