The 6,000 direct jobs in the sector support a further 9,055 jobs in Scotland.
Ian Waddell, head of The Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions, recently told the Scottish Affairs Committee:
“Shipbuilding makes an important contribution to the Scottish economy. Multiplier estimates produced by the Scottish Government suggest that each shipbuilding job supports a further 1.51 jobs in the wider Scottish economy: implying that the 6,000 direct jobs in the sector support a further 9,055 jobs in Scotland. Each £250 million of shipbuilding expenditure in Scotland – the nominal average cost of a Type 31 frigate – will support an estimated 2,223 jobs.
It should be noted that defence manufacturers are more likely to place orders with local suppliers than non-defence firms, magnifying the benefit of shipbuilding orders to local and regional economies. There may be good opportunities for Scottish shipbuilding under a long-term pipeline of work. Our members delivered the successful Carrier programme. Workers at BAE Systems on the Clyde have designed and are building the Type 26 frigates, while workers at Babcock at Rosyth are building Type 31 frigates, adapted from a Danish design.
If the UK MoD awards the competition for the three Fleet Solid Support Ships to Team UK then the ships would be integrated in Rosyth. There is further potential for large vessels of this class as other ships such as landing platforms and casualty receiving ships are replaced. Babcock workers at Rosyth were also poised to build Fast Missile Boats for the Ukrainian navy prior to the February 2022 Russian invasion. A collaborative, modular approach to fulfilling large orders could also secure work for Ferguson Marine on the Lower Clyde. The National Shipbuilding Office has recently set up the Shipbuilding Enterprise for Growth (SEG), which will oversee industrial strategy for the sector. Scotland has a strong influence on this group, with John Howie of Babcock as co-Chair. It is early days for the SEG, with only one meeting having taken place at the time of writing, but it is a positive step in bringing the key industry players together with senior defence and other government department officials. Workers also have a voice as the General Secretary of the CSEU has a seat on the SEG.”
Summarising, Waddell added:
“Up and down Scotland, communities depend on the defence industry and a steady drumbeat of work for their jobs, for a future for young people, for economic security and in some cases, their economic survival.”
You can read more from his submission to the committee here.
I’m impressed that the National Shipbuilding Office is already making its presence felt. let’s hope Shipbuilding Enterprise for Growth is a success across the board, Scotland included.
And how many South of the border?
15,000 in Cumbria alone according to dreadnaught program stats based on same model. Cumbria gets more than the whole of Scotland. Off course I think a few commentators south of watford put Cumbria in Scotland but it’s been a while since the boarder was that far south (Macbeth)
Cumbria is a strange old place, I once went out with a girl from Cumbria, lovely but a bit odd.
Cumbria or the Girl? 😀
The girl. But she was a very lovely happy, 6 foot blond with Valkyrie like plaits so I sort of did not mind the oddness.
I love Cumbria and I went out with a lass from eggramont, she was sweet but odd as well.
I once went out with a girl from Yugoslavia before the country broke into lots of pieces. She had black hair and wore glasses..
PS she also had a dog called Pogle which from memory means “Dog” in Serbian
Is that but with one T?
😂😂 the Double TT was nice as well
Is that a size or Motorbike race ?
Oh well that’s all right then. Sounds like a fair apportionment!
👍👍 spot on bill and of cousre miss Krankie will say its all down too SNP policies that has secured this Scottish Jobs for Scottish workers although there seems too be jocks south of the border than north ooops
Pompey has a strong maintenance team as does Plymouth, but the heavy build is dependant on Scottish yards.
other UK Yards abandoned ship building for the easy option of oil works and wind turbines.
Not just that. With so few new builds it was inevitable that the Clyde would get the overwhelming share of naval shipbuilding. We all know it’s political.
POMPEY, did build some of the Hull/ superstructure for the QE class in the BAE shed in the Dockyard ok they were big builds and parts were built in various dockyards and assembled in ROSYTH so unless those in the know would be willing too do the same ,it looks like Scotland will be the Navy’s go to shipbuilders
I had no idea it was so few given the noise made by many over it, out of 2.5 million jobs in Scotland juts 6,000 or 0.24% are employed directly and a total employment of 15,000 or just 0.6% of all jobs. I think it’s fair to say Gregg’s Bakers employees more people in Scotland. These figures should perhaps frame the debate about the importance of UK naval orders to an independent Scotland.
Shipbuilding is a totemic issue in Scotland. Hence why Crankie wasted so much money with Fergusons. She would have been better off giving the money to BAE and Babcock to improve site facilities and competitiveness at those locations.
Belfast let go of it but might have a resurgence.
Only issue is that Nippy as we call her has bailed out everything from airports to shipyards and offshore construction yards all with much the same result. The “success” of the Scottish shipyards is more to do with new labour after the Tory’s tried to kill it off in the 90’s. For sure it is more of an issue in Scotland however as governments in England wales and Northern Ireland have made little if any effort to preserve ship building over the past three decades. People in England are rightly angry about that but their scorn should be turned south… Read more »
Don’t disagree Martin, I have not problem with the SNP supporting Scottish heavy industry and tec, I just wish we had a U.K. wide approach to protecting and development of production…
But do we want the £4b spending black hole the SNP have created that goes with it. The reality is its individuals like Henry Ford have had a far greater impact on manufacturing growth and not governments. Governments need to provide the frame work for growth, they’ve never been good at the doing part leave that to those with vision.
Unfortunately the world we live in is very unequal, once you could have free competition and not intervene, but that has ended with globalisation and the Merchantile strategy being used by developing economies. China can and will almost always be able to build cheaper as it has a completely controlled and poorly paid workforce, that means western industries simply cannot compete when China decided it taking that industry as part of its mercantile strategy. If the west keeps on with its neoliberal market rules all approach We will be part of a chinese hedgmony, as China can always make it… Read more »
But that’s simply not the reality western businesses remain competitive, people are not clamouring to buy Chinese cars for instance people want quality at a price point hence why German car sell so well. Products are not just about price. The raspberry pi computer manufacturing was repatriated to the UK from China. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/raspberry-pi-factory. JCB continue to be competitive https://www.rermag.com/news-analysis/headline-news/media-gallery/21145754/jcb-founded-in-a-garage-celebrates-75-years-in-business I was at reasonable large UK company last week that has quadrupled in size in 3 years, guess what they make electronic components, an industry that is right in Chinas sweet spot. They using robotics, AI, machine learning etc to stay… Read more »
interesting you talk about JCB, as if you look at the British components in a JCB it was 96% in 1976 and as of 2010 it had dropped to 36%. When asked why the chair of JCB put it firmly on a crappy U.K. industrial strategy. He did actually quote Germany as doing it right as the state protects its industrial workforce during downturns, so they can stay employed at lower hours ( same wages) and the skills are still there ready to be turned strait on during the upturns, very particularly he quoted the German car manufacturing industries..in the… Read more »
Industrial strategy and advocating government ownership are 2 different things. You’re original comment was in support of nationalise industries. East Germany had a nationalised car industry you could join the 10 year waiting list for a Trabant whilst West Germans chose between VW, BMWs etc. 9 out of 10 times government ownership ends in crappie product, expensive and subsidised by the Tax payer usually in a death spiral. I work in manufacturing and I could benefit from lots of government support but I understand it all to easy to over rely on it. The focus for the UK must be… Read more »
It’s more of a mixed model I prefer. Sometimes the government does need to take on state ownership ( we were happy to risk hundreds of billions on the U.K. state buying out a bank). If an industry is suffering for a specific reason that is transient and it would be impossible to regenerate if lost then it can be justified for the state to take ownership…but it should have a plan to then take it back to a normal business model. The other side of the the coin the state should be willing to provide state backing if an… Read more »
To be fair UK manufacturing biggest decline was due to own goals. Take automotive UK customers deserted UK brands not due to Germany and Japan being cheaper but UK producing a product that even British people did not want, bad designs and rubbish quality. Japan had implement quality techniques developed in the west(Read up on Edward Demming, US engineer), whilst UK factories refused to change working practices mainly due to Unions and Management constantly bickering rather the working together to save jobs. Make that management a Tory government vs Unions who back Labour then all common sense goes out the… Read more »
Interesting comment on Demmings, his work is brilliant especially for manufacturing, although we also use his work in healthcare, mainly the elements around common and special cause variation and the requirements to understand the system, identify its problems and then try changes that you then measure before full implementation. I love Demmings ( I have my own modified version of the red bed game I use for commissions and contract managers in healthcare). I do agree with you the 60s to 70s was a tragic time and at that point British industry killed itself…lack of investment by manufacturing industries and… Read more »
As for China whilst everyone blames companies for offshore jobs the reality it was the Clinton administration that made it possible, you’d think it would have been the pro business Republicans and whilst some voted for it the party was sceptical. Bit ironic I think as its spun as the political rights fault. https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/research/public-opinion-survey/republicans-and-democrats-split-china-policy. I hope we’ve woken up to the threat, US seems to have finally with Biden continuing Trump politics on China. Interesting watch is War Factories. They looked at war time manufacturing in Britain, they state that actually UKs diverse supply chain ment we very rapidly out… Read more »
Completely agree, companies are there to make money for their investors and have to move as profits dictate. So it is the job of the politicians to ensure companies can compete and still stay in a nation, that means good industrial policy investment and protection as well as development of strategic workforce and the market place ( this means sometimes developed nations need to make it more difficult to trade with a nation that has massive advantage and a mercantile strategy so China). But I ageee, it’s not a left or right issue in the U.K. or US as all… Read more »
TBH the reason why the shipyards had to be killed was the intransigent unionisation. Building them back up pretty much from scratch has meant that cultures abs common sense could be baked in. The alternative was to subsidise a monumentally inefficient hotbed of unrest that held everyone to ransom as it suited the unions. If the yards had been able to reform as technology progressed and shed the surplus labour it would be a different story now. As it is, just like the manning of RN warships shrinks, the cost differentials for building ships abroad are shrinking as automation plays… Read more »
Yep the fact that last RFA ship they tried to build on Tyneside only just managed to get it to float and it had to be towed to Clude to be finished 🙁 didn’t help with keeping ‘English’ ship yards open. Only yard i know that was building ok was Appledore which would have be perfect to build the B2’s while Clyde built the T-26’s
What RFA was that?
Lyme Bay
They took it to Barrow to finish did they not?
They did.
The incomplete Lyme Bay was towed to Govan for completion by BAE.[5][6] Lyme Bay was dedicated on 26 November 2007; the last ship of the class to enter RFA service.[2] The ship was the only warship built by Swan Hunter but not completed; she marked the end of shipbuilding on the Tyne, as soon afterwards Swan Hunter sold its equipment to India and reinvented itself as an engineering consultancy
Issue was the B2 were only built as the T26 was not ready yet and the yard had to keep the work flow going. A yard only big enough to build small warships or blocks does not provide much utility so there is very little point in keeping it open. Atleast some where like Ferguson marine can build civilian vessels like Ferry’s and fishing boats then chip in with blocks for larger vessels. If you want a yard in England it’s probably better to keep work going to Cammell Laird as it’s a major facility capable of ship repair as… Read more »
I was more talking about the late major government that magically re tendered the Vanguard submarine work to Devenport leaving Rosyth with 18 months before closure and a £500 million hole in the ground, Govan yard ran out of work about the same time.
That Vanguard thing was very odd. That said maintaining some ship building capacity on base at one of the main bases probably looked quite sensible at the time. It would probably look quite sensible now to be able to build blocks there for assembly elsewhere. I’d be fascinated to know how much it would cost to set up a proper production line for the panel sections, automated QA etc. Not I suspect as much as you might think. We know how much a build hall is: not that much IRL. The main issue is how to train the labour that… Read more »
100% I watched a video of US ship yard. They had a robot welder which was AI driven. It recognised the hull section then welded the correct sections together, it was capable of one off production runs. One person oversaw the whole process.
Independent Scotland won’t get any UK naval orders because if they do I’ll be the first to picket Downing Street.
They can’t as not allowed to build ‘warships’ in foreign country, i would say that any hulls not already in build should not be allowed to be started.
Surely the promise of the article is the don’t really need them it 0.2% of their working population.
It’s the amount of money Billions which the MOD spends North of the border. Would you be happy if part of the independence agree is allowed to continue.
Its a little more complex than that. I would think a lot of those jobs are above average wage which means they contribute more. That’s also 15k to be pensioners again who have probably good pension pots. Its also money coming in from outside Scotland from HMG so its essentially export work if you like.
I don’t think anyone would think that would happen. Pretty sure no Scottish people are under that illusion. As pointed out it’s not a massive part of the workforce. As someone said greggs employs more. Now if only we could make a submarine from sausage rolls powered by the heat from inside a steak bake
Instead of the bake burning the roof of your mouth…..
You can order subs from American fast food outlets, so there’s no reason Greggs couldn’t branch out. Alternatively we could figure out how to launch Trident from a pasty.
Don’t bring Cornwall into this they’ll be asking for Independence as well Jon
I know the Americans are gun crazy, but I don’t think they’re quite to the point of being able to acquire naval assets from the Dollar Menu yet.
Well whose going to build them then?? They’ve got orders for all the ships we’re building, or will be building in the next ten years. McMerkle will be long gone if she hasn’t dragged Scotland out of the UK in five years. It’s just an opinion.
Devonport and Belfast have the trained work force but because of the narrow view of this government putting all our eggs in one basket. Plus if and when you go your separate way its illegal to have UK military ships built by a foreign country, so they have to invest some money in Devonport or another place to transfer building back south of the border. If part of the independence agreement they continue to build them north of the border I’ll be the first outside Downing Street protecting. BTW I’m not anti Scottish I’m anti SNP. They had their chance… Read more »
Thing is the shipbuilding jobs are concentrated in very specific areas. Lose them and you condemn whole communities.
I agree Mark. Just like mining. The closure of pits devastated communities for years.
Some of them have not recovered to this day, they are now some of the most deprived areas in the country. I live pretty close to Durham which was a particularly hard hit region.
If there is no ship building they wont be any need for Greggs as they will have any money.
thats SNP logic, and how many UK Service personnel and resources are supported in the MOD bases across Scotland.
I don’t know how many are employed in England, Wales, or NI as a proportion of the whole, but that is probably also should be compared when to comes to whether Scotland is being fairly treated or not. At an objective level, though, 2.4% direct employment isn’t a lot- and you are likely right about Greggs. But the quality of the job in terms of skill level, earning potential, tax revenue, and productivity of the economy is likely relatively high for a defence industry bod. You’ll have a lot of specialists, such as welders, electricians, plus higher grade engineers, project… Read more »
People in the south are getting more and more upset with the attitude of the nationalist government in the Scotland. With the state of things it would have been better to move some of those jobs down south: I thought it was total madness they decided to build the T31s as well as the T26s in Scotland.
You say it’s madness but Babcock won a tender to do the work at Rosyth fair and square with easily the best ship. By all accounts they are doing an amazing job. Would you rather have the T31 being the Leander class just so it could be built in England? Would it not be madness to accept a less capable ship with a higher unit price form an unreliable supplier just to be built in a part of the country you think is more deserving?
Babcock could have built the T31 elsewhere in the country – in fact they originally said blocks would be built across the country. I actually think it’s a matter of time before Scotland goes it’s own way so it would of been logical to build the T31s somewhere else so that the capability to build complex warships would be retained when / if independence happens.
Yes but it was cheaper to build them in Rosyth which is why they are building then there. Babcock’s main facility in the UK is Rosyth why would they build them somewhere else? The UK government can not have a referendum on Scottish independence win it then start planning for independence, that would be a violation of the democratic mandate and about the most retarded piece of planning possible.
Team 31 say construction will be done using 4 collaborating shipyards, blocks will be built at Babcock Appledore in North Devon, Ferguson Marine on the Clyde, Harland & Wolff in Belfast with the final assembly and integration done at Rosyth. https://www.navylookout.com/babcock-announces-new-arrowhead-140-design-for-the-type-31e-frigate-competition/
You’re a bit out of date there, Grant. That article is 2018. Since then Appledore has closed down To be bought up by H&W’s owners, who are now in administration, as were Ferguson’s, now nationalised. So, three men down.
Babcock said they were willing and able to take on the whole job themselves, and that’s how it’s been progressing.
They are now…. The point is there were other places in the Uk they could of (and should of) been built rather than Scotland.
Like?
That only leaves CL on the Mersey and they were committed to ‘Leander’, BAE’s competing design. So in fact none then.
No there was not, the other yards went bust before the bid. Stop blaming people in Scotland for yards in England going bust. It’s nothing to do with people in Scotland.
If they had got some of the work they would have continued. The workforce down South and North Ireland felt betrayed it even ran the story in national press. This was all about the government appeasing the SNP by giving the contract north of the border.
Good Morning Grant-Shurely should be”..could have(and should have) ..??
The only reason it went north was to appease the SNP to honour the once in a lifetime independence vote. That has failed now the country has lost the ability to manufacture in other places.
Slightly off on the H&W timing Shelley. H&W went into administration, then bought by Infrastrata, who then went on to purchase Appledore. Infrastrata now renamed as H&W Group Holdings plc.
However, it is true that H&W has to regenerate shipbuilding at Belfast and Appledore, so unlikely that Babcock would outsource modules to H&W for T31 builds.
Yes but the UK was not willing to pay for it, so it went to Rosyth on a sole yard basis. Sorry to burst the nationalist bubble here as well but three of the 4 yards you mention are in places with pretty strong independence movements. You want them punished as well for not accepting the DUP? I’m not sure retaining Appledore will do an independent England much good.
Appledore should get the new Border Force cutters, a £200m project, perfect to regenerate the site, but the Home Office apparently wants to offshore the build to Damen in Holland.
Does Devon and Cornwall have an independence movement? 🙂
No they won the contract to appease the SNP into honoring the independence vote, it could and should have gone to Devonport or Belfast.
Why would the Tory’s want to appease the SNP? it’s nonsense. Although do remember a very very clear statement was made to people in Scotland before the referendum on ship building by all UK parties. People in Scotland then voted by a pretty decent margin to stay in the UK. In fact Scottish people are the only people to ever actually vote to be in the UK both in 2014 and in 1707. Are you in favour of making pledges to people then punishing them when they do what you ask? It’s attitudes like that that are fuelling nationalism and… Read more »
I’m British but fed up of the SNP and threats of independence, I’m at the stage I don’t give a fig if Scotland leaves the United Kingdom. This government did appease the SNP with these contracts at the expense of non Scottish jobs.
The SNP lost the independence vote that should be the end of it but its not, its the same as Brexit I voted to remain in the EU but I lost the vote, I disagree with the remainers who keep going on about it and especially the ones that want a vote on rejoining the EU. The point of a referendum is to decide and its what the majority want and the minority should abide with that and not go on and on. As for me been a English nationalist I disagree with you I’m a fed up Brit the… Read more »
That’s a coincidence because people in the North are getting really fed up with the nationalist government in England as well. Should we start punishing them? Maybe we should close Portsmouth and teach then a lesson. 😀
Hahaha! You make a fair point….
The usual topic we all hate each other. They get all the good stuff and we get nothing. Blah blah blah. Bring on the purge. With the internet anyone can say what ever they like without having to look at the horror/disgust on other peoples faces when something silly is said. Then find out that nobody wants to talk to them due to the doom and gloom spouted out.
Past caring, as we have been a Union for a little while now. yet there is a Bitter salty party trying to divide that Union.
as i do wonder what would happen if the Vote was given to all members if they want to keep the union.
and to vote you must return to your country of birth,
so just imagine if England Votes out N/I, Scotland and Wales, what do you think would happen.
dont think there would be cheering, they would be thinking Oh Shite
No some of these jobs but all!!!
Both BAE and Babcock have been quite clear that operations would have to be moved on independence. The Unions have also echoed that.
Given the clarity of these statements there will be sites earmarked for for this.
The workforce will be paid handsomely to up sticks.
Given the smallish numbers working in the Scottish yards the effects won’t be the devastation that they once would have been. RN/MOD money is to buy warships and not gerrymandering.
I think it’s mainly because we know that independent Scotland will happen one day. When you have a party campaigning for the vote constantly and no real counter point and people in the don’t know side of the vote will swing either side from time to time as world events impact their opinion, it’s inevitable that sooner or later there will be a period where the majority of voters will be in favour and it will be then that the SNP will call an election. It’s not really a fair vote when one side can choose the when and it’s… Read more »
Isn’t that the point ? They’re in no position to choose when or even the question on the ballot paper. In my opinion Cameron got that horribly wrong with « Do you believe Scotland should be an independent country. Terribly loaded in favour otherwise perhaps the majority against would have been greater . Next time , if there is one , I’m sure it will be more along the lines of « Do you believe Scotland should secede from the UK « . Also exiled Scots and military personnel will be permitted to vote .
Good post
They changed the law on yes no referendums in the run up to Brexit. However I think it’s pretty insulting to people in Scotland and anywhere else to think that the difference in a Yes No language choice would impact such a major political choice. Also take note there is not going to be another Scottish referendum for a long time if ever. The referendum was done fair and square its only the SNP in Scotland and the Tory press in England that keep banging on about another one for their own political cause. Neither even wants one but it’s… Read more »
Martin , I think they should change the question , think of the boost to the economy for the yes voters to buy no flags and vice versa, on another note the shipyards prove good well paying full time jobs and apprenticeship opportunities, Greg’s will probably provide 10-16 hours per week top up with benefits
Hi Steve. I don’t think an Independent Scotland is either inevitable or desirable. Scotland and indeed the other members of the UK can have the best of both worlds with unique identities as part of a larger British identity. The Quebec example is a good analogy. Nationalism peaked there and has now receded.Being part of a centuries old established Union makes sense in every department and if we remain as a Union then the fact that shipbuilding is centred in Scotland does not matter.
Britain’s taxes keep a shipyard in Scotland.
Without sturgeon and SNP, this is a legitimate investment in Britain and there is no dispute.
But are the costs of maintaining the shipyard included in the price paid to the sturgeon?
You know you sound like the Kremlin. If you don’t elect a local government that is backed by central government we will punish you. Just now SNP is what works for local Scottish issues that are dealt with in the Scottish parliament.
Instead of blaming the SNP perhaps the question should be what are they doing right that the other parties are doing so wrong.
Also Scottish parliament was set up so no party should have an overall majority. This was to encourage parties to work together for the best of the country instead of the usual party BS
It’s a story from another dimension where the SNP’s sturgeon is an ideal, flawless one.
Kierstamer was also on the verge of being punished for breaking the law, and so was Boris. However, there is no punishment or investigation for the sturgeon. Britain’s judicial system is broken in front of the sturgeon simply out of fear of the SNP’s independence slogan. The Ferguson Shipyard is clear evidence of corruption, but is there an investigation?
Everyone knows that the sturgeon will not be investigated for corruption or for breaking the law.
The sturgeon is morally perfect and innocent of all charges of corruption.
Of course, I’m the only bad guy because I sound like a Kremlin.
I never realised that so few people were employed by Scottish shipbuilding, changed days indeed from the halcyon days of yesteryear when shipbuilding was a mass employer. Interesting.
10% of all Scots live and work in England. 10%.
I would expect the number of English in Scotland to be similar. Where I live on the west coast of Scotland there are more english accents now than any other
The SNP still control Scotland and their intentions are very clear.
I would still take every one of those jobs and orders back, as a matter of national security. Places such as Tyneside would give their back teeth for the investment and jobs. With the added bonus of not threatening to leave the United Kingdom.
Why would jobs be lost to an Independent neighbouring country ? An ally ? You can farm out contracts to places like Malaysia, why not Scotland ? Only spite would prevent this .
Off topic, but any news when Dauntless will be coming out to play again?
Its not just shipbuilding there a lot more jobs depending on the UK mod.
Should independence be a reality Leonardo would have to look long an hard at there operations along with BAe, Spirit, GE Aviation, Thales, Rolls Royce, Qinetiq, Boeing, Airbus, Raytheon, UTC, Meggit L3…. the list goes on.
Some duel use civil/defence sites may consider just moving south as removing the defence part increases the fixed costs making the remaining business unsustainable so better just consolidate in rUK and keep cost under control.