Royal Navy ‘to have more frigates and destroyers’

That is all very true Jonathan. The extent of marxist infiltration into the free world Great Britain in particular, is quite shocking. We are currently reaping the tainted crop of seeds continually sown for a century. The aims are exactly the same, regardless the flavour of marxism one encounters.

My Grandfather used to rant and rave about this, in particular that Arthur Scargill was being influenced by the Russians. As a kid I thought he was just making up anti-union stories, they were a collective that he and his family, being small business owners, had never liked. I had no idea at the time there was genuine exchange of ideas and frequent travel to Russia in the trade union movement.

This narrative is very one sided.

I’ll start mildly – Radio Free Europe
We can move on to the Peace Corps
And who will forget the British Council.

So, yes, there was funding and propaganda on both sides – Oberons were operating in the Baltic Sea, why? How did the Latvian and Lithuanian Forest Brothers sustain themselves into the 60s – strange that.

You’re becoming a stuck record.

I became the Branch Secretary for Ofsted in the early 90s – I negotiated pay rises, I got PAs moved to EOs when the PA grade was abolished, I got extended maternity leave AND 93/94 ish, got Paternity leave introduced, way before any political party.

I also served in the RMP doing more time than in my CS job – it’s OK, it was weekends because the IRA were bombing the f*** out of London and blokes needed breaks.

Not everyone is a red under the bed; we just serve(d) the United Kingdom.

However, I’m fed up with your spouting. Balance dear, try for some balance.

Now, drink your tea and try not to rant too much.

Someone else who can’t sleep. I understand it’s old news Barry but people do forget. I too was a union rep. for all the right reasons.

The younger generations spoon fed socialism at school, go into Trade Unionism as naive kids. Unaware of the guile and subversiveness built into the organisation from the very start. Thankfully in Britain, there were (? still are) plenty of observant right minded union members, willing to report “problems” to the correct authorities.

It is incumbent on the older more experienced of us, to ensure the lessons from the past are kept current for the benefit of the youth. Even if that runs the risk of sounding like a stuck record.

BTW Barry, something we Brits never say to each other but could learn from our American cousins. “Thank you for your service.” Particularly for your vigilance regarding the terrorist threat. When it comes to protecting our freedom and maintaining peace, there is always a cost. Most of it outside the scope of the bean counters. I wish you well.

Nowdays Russia & China infiltrate, seduce & subvert business & government with lots of dodgy money.

I am, yes. Because the Marxist Trotskyist movement did not end with the demise of the USSR and Warsaw Pact. If anything it is now far worse because the extremists are home grown and have evolved with lucrative global ties. ANTIFA and BLM having high profiles.

Do not reply until you have investigated the International Communist League (fourth Internationalist) and their affiliations with various like minded Trotskyist groups. The stated violent revolutionary aims and objectives are of particular interest to those of us who defend western democracy. As are the mainstream organisations they have infiltrated. The old adage of follow the money is applicable.

BTW do you know what the third and second internationals were. That should answer your initial question. (Not to be confused with the various congresses.)

or just building a new one from scratch…maybe in one of the dockyards that aren’t in Scotland …I mean who would complain about that….its a wonder no-one has suggested it.

Well the T31 can have whatever Load out you want to put on it, there is nothing wrong with that, even call it a T32, what we don’t necessarily want is a completely new ship design as the T31 as designed can have a huge variety of weapons fitted.

As for just defend, well if your building a pure escort or patrol frigate that’s actually what they are for so you can just go for a defensive fit..if you want a GP warship you do need some surface strike capability…but it’s very clear the the RN are sticking 8 NSMs on them so not sure what the issue is there.

It’s interesting and most people don’t know this the US government actually pay more per head per population on healthcare than the UK does for the NHS. Basically the US government safety net healthcare covers a percentage of its population…not the birth to death 100% cover the NHS gives.

so Medicaid and Medicare ( the state funded healthcare for the poor, old, children and veterans etc) cost 1.6 trillion dollars or around 38% of healthcare expenses….then around 0.5 trillion dollars on public health expenses ( again mainly government)..or 14%..which gives you 52% of US healthcare spending by the US government and state agencies….or about 9.5% of GDP…the sad thing for Americans is because they have a market driven private system that only buys a basic safety net for some of its population ( they should ask the NHS to do their healthcare as they would get a 100% coverage for that with better infant and adult mortality rates) so then to get the 100% reasonable coverage they then spend another 1.2 trillion on health insurance cover and .4 trillion on out of pocket ( personal payment)…..

in total they spend 4.3 trillion dollars a year or 18.3% of their GDP ( 13,000 dollars per year per person) on healthcare…..but only .8 trillion dollars on defence…so less than 1/5 spend on healthcare

UK spending on healthcare is around .22 trillion pounds government and 0.05 trillion personal payment and insurance for a total of .27 trillion ( around 11% GDP….pre covid it was around 10% GDP so 1% was a covid cost)…Uk defence spending was 0.07 trillion pounds or just around 1/4 spend on healthcare..so the UK when measured against the US health vs defence balance is more balanced towards defence than the U.S….the but the US manage to spend a total of around 21.6% of its GDP on both health and defence…we spend around 13.5% of our GDP on health and defence….that what most people who use the we should spend less on the NHS and more on defence don’t get…we are actually underfunding both systems….we need to look at what else our nations wealth is spent on.

Yeah Medicare alone cost the same % of GDP as the NHS, America gets really screwed on health care.

As a Brit living in the US Medicare – for the old – has huge gaps and while is “ok- but only just”- the money spend on cold
Calls by licensed sales men is obscene! And most here just would not pay a tax to have an enormous pile of cash to help everyone! It is just not in their DNA.

Havn`t seen a pothole ??????
Where are you ?

We do love a good moan, I live in the South West on the Cornwall/Devon border and weve got potholes you can lose a bus in, and loads of them.
Youre right about the NHS though, it can waste money like you wouldn`t believe, as can the MOD.

The UK is the worst for potholes but interestingly a major reason for it is choice of utilities.

Gas piped in almost every home is not normal in most countries and multiple telecommunications providers and fast broadband in major cities is also not normal.

All this and the massive changes the UK is making ahead of other countries like national grid upgrades for electric cars, plastic gas pipes that are Hydrogen ready and super fast broad band come at the cost of streets being dug up regularly.

That combined with chronic underfunding of local governments leaves our streets some of the worst in the world.

Not going to argue with that.

I read years ago that the Japanese have hit squads of pot hole repairers – they respond very quickly and use quick setting materials, possibly a fast-set concrete?

Yes, according to official statistics the US has the same per capita GDP as Switzerland. If you go to Switzerland you can literally smell the money on every street. If I go to the upper east side of Manhattan or Beverley hills which I have down in the past year it looks like a **** hole. I have no idea where this money is in America and the people seem to have a standard of living and consumption pretty much in line with the European average.

I can only surmise that US GDP figures are grossly inflated much like Irelands primarily due to large US corporations running money back and fourth that has almost no impact on individuals. Also due to its size the US has massive income and cost disparity. A person in New York on $100K will be just getting by but he cost if living in a Missouri trailer park filters in to US PPP.

Also the average tax take from the Governwmnt in the UK is about 36% of GDP but in the US it’s around 28%. We get a lot of services including free health care and university (outside of England) for that extra 8%.

Personally I think the UK strikes a good balance, people don’t pay a lot and get a lot back relative to other industrial economies.

Then you end up with the US. Spend more money & get less.

It’s a simple answer. If we don’t help Ukraine. Russia wins. Then who next will they invade? Estonia maybe. And also signals that the West is weak and won’t do bugger all. So. It’s money very well spent. And in the grand scheme of government spending, it isn’t much at all.

Estonia and the other 31 members of NATO are protected by the alliance and article five. Russia would never invade any member state because the results would be catastrophic. The deterrent worked right through the Cold War, when the Warsaw Pact was considerably stronger than Russia is today.

I still think the manor in which we are helping Ukraine is misguided. Given that both it and Russia are recovering soviet founding nations, with little or nothing to distinguish between them. Corrupt oligarchies both.

You must be aware of the leaked documents supporting the claims of current corruption. From the president Z. down, they are skimming cash from the military/humanitarian aid being sent. What’s more, the US intelligence agencies (probably ours too) have known this from when we initiated the 2014 coup. It is therefore reasonable to assume, only latent hatred of Putin and Russia is driving our combined support for Ukraine.

Don’t get me wrong. Dividing and conquering enemies is a strategy I fully approve of. Just not in this case. We have gone to great lengths to push Russia to war. While simultaneously highlighting to others, potential weaknesses in the collective NATO defensive alliance.

There is very little we can do about it now. Far too late to backtrack. Much credibility has been lost and the world is a more dangerous place because of it.

I think the world is a far more dangerous place if we let Russia try and invade a free democratic nation on our door step. Russia’s actions are completely indefensible. Now I’m sure corruption has been rife in the Ukraine, but that doesn’t mean that we should idly stand by and let a young democracy and its millions of innocent citizens suffer at the hands of a bully like Putin. If we had done nothing then the balance of global power would well and truly be in the hands of China and given them a massive greenlight to do what it wants with Taiwan. The biggest mistake the West made was being to soft with Putin back in 2014. A much bigger picture is at play here, and that is why the UK and NATO are investing so much in the defence of Ukraine. Its a crying shame its taken an attempted invision like this for EU NATO nations to pull their finger out and take defence more seriously. We need to be more independent and less reliant on the US to provide the bulk of NATO defence capabilities. The US will always be our closest ally, but the world is changing, and the US might not be able to operate in the EU on the scale its been able too.

I appreciate your stance on this but disagree Ukraine is a democracy, as we understand the term in Britain. It is still an oligarchy with institutionalised corruption on a scale far in excess of what we consider acceptable. Also, the country is on Russia’s doorstep rather than ours. It’s location with fellow founding soviet states on two sides being of primary importance in all of this. Moscow is just 4 hours drive from the Ukrainian border.

Ukrainian politics is also problematic and very different from our experience. It is complex and exists at the confluence of a dozen ideologies and often, divergent geopolitical interests. For example, without banging on about it again. Their hero worship of Stephan Bandera is an understandable bone of contention in the former soviet heartland. As is a wish by some to return to communism! Many people have written on the subject ad nauseam. No need for me to explain that further.

The biggest mistake we made with respect to post soviet Russia was giving them reassurances that NATO would not expand eastwards. The second biggest was either instigating the Ukrainian Euromaidan coup of 2014 or the lies told at the Minsk meetings. It makes little difference at this late stage.

As much as I dislike them all for inflicting socialism on the world. The relationship between the four founding members of the USSR is something they need to workout for themselves. Their recovery from communism is obviously proving the most difficult of all. As it should be. “What goes around comes around.”

The word from the Latvian Ministry of Transport (I taught them) was that Ukraine WAS very corrupt and trying to implement EU reforms was difficult.

Caveat.
This is from a Ministry that is implementing Railbaltic where when the Trace of a route is 25 – 30 metres, the Balts were taking 50; now, the interesting point.

Wage costs are far lower in the Balts
Land costs are far lower in the Balts
SOME construction costs are far lower in the Balts.

And yet, they landed the scheme costs per kilometre built trace, just under the European norms – project approved 😉

And the trace had already been bought by parties acting for the people… deciding the trace.

If you would like a prime example of this, let me know.

Morning David. As I said to George. I’m under no illusion corruption was rife in the Ukraine before the conflict, especially with easy to abuse EU rules. But, I can’t agree that’s an excuse to let them suffer at the hands of Putin, and the West leaves them to it. A much bigger global power struggle is at play. And, our response has been the correct response. It’s just a crying shame it’s come to this.

What’s your take on sending modern jets to Ukraine?

I’m confused as to how modern F16 can be sent to back fill the Mig 29s being sent to Ukraine from Central European countries and yet can not be sent to Ukraine – who technically will be as competent as their Central European peers?

As to your point re the conflict, we should give them all the help we can.

I think F16’s would be the best option for Ukraine. But MIG29’s are a good technical and political choice. They already have the engineering support and experience in place to operate MIG29’s, plus the ground support equipment, pilot training, technician training the lot. Plus their is no risk of Western tech falling into the hands of the Russians if an F16 gets shot down.

The main issue I believe is the plethora of air to ground weapons the F16 can carry, depending on the variant. Quite a few of these would be longish range. Which means there’s a likelihood Ukraine would use them against targets in Russia.

The US are trying to make a balance where they are giving Ukraine the weapons to not only defend themselves. But also to go on the offensive, albeit limited. Due to the type of weapons being delivered.

The reason for this is to try to prevent Russia from using these offensive weapons, as an excuse to go to the next level by using tactical nukes. It remains to be seen what aRussia will do if Ukraine’s counter-offensive is successful?

If Ukraine get their hands on the F16C/D variant. This then means they have access to AMRAAM up to the Block C version. Which should in theory put them ahead of what Russia is normally fielding with its AA-10 Alamos. AMRAAM has a proven track record, the Alamo has been less than great (India particularly not impressed). Though whether the later Su35, with its more powerful radar will be able to see the F16, before it is seen is debatable. As the Su35 has a significantly larger RCS than a F16.

The issue is the same if Finland are allowed to give their F18s to Ukraine.

Thanks for a very detailed reply.

I’d suggest that Russia has shown admirable restraint in its use of Western weapons, however, did anyone tell the RAF they couldn’t bomb Germany in WW2 because the aggressor wouldn’t like it?

Send them Canberra’s with standoff weaponry. That should do the trick.

Well said. Russia should face the fact they have lost Ukraine. Its been 100 years coming after the small farmers were trashed by Lenin when millions died. The Tartars were driven from Crimea in a genocide.
Russia itself is hopelessly corrupt and all opposition to the Putinist Government is at risk of death or imprisonment.
One can only hope for change there as probably 1/3 of the population wants a decent democratic country.

That’s nonsense, another Russian troll.

ignore him Jim, he isn’t worthy of a response.

Jim not sure he is a troll as on many occasion he does have and raise genuine points and concerns! George does seem to be pro defence oriented but very keen to be negative in regard to NATO and its aspirations and capabilities, which in that regard I will disagree with him 👍

Agreed 👍

Don’t be silly, I’m neither Russian or a troll. I See things differently to most on here. Ukraine is not a cause I would have chosen to support. Perhaps my opinions on the subject are Cold War and Ukraine’s soviet past. But they are what they are.
The enemy of my enemy is not always a friend.

All those points make you sound like either a troll sitting in st Petersburg farm working for the FSB or Jeremy Corbyn.

Beyond that I not aware of anyone else in the UK expressing the same view as you. Obviously these threads are inundated with Russian Trolls running counter espionage work pushing kremlin propaganda so I lean to the former explanation.

Perhaps your neither but it’s a tough sell to convince me when your literally pouring out the same propaganda that genocidal murdering rapists are using to justify the biggest invasion in Europe since World War II.

Perhaps you should re examine your own beliefs give the company your keeping.

What leaked US documents are you referring to? I wasn’t aware there was anything about money being skimmed by corrupt politicians and military in this latest crop of documents

Just received notification of this reply.
Yes, there are many documents released. Including internal CIA coms regarding a complete list of corrupt Ukrainian generals and politicians, who have been skimming cash from international military aid. Including Zelensky. One figure of 400 million is mentioned regarding the members of the Kiev military. Confirmed by communications between Ukrainian soldiers and their relatives at home complaining about it. This information was intentionally withheld from the the American public.
I do not know if the British government are aware of this but considering the closeness of the five eyes. I would be horrified if they are not!
Corruption is indeed a fact of life in communist and post communist oligarchies. The involvement of the White House in the corruption needs to be investigated. Remember all the “reconstruction” cash that went missing in Iraq and ended up in the pockets of various friends of the Bush neo-con administration.

George I have to say I’m quite content to have a certain amount of public funds to be “found” and allocated to Ukraine for weapons etc! As it’s money well spent, due to the fact western weapons and western money are being use to degrade the enemy we have been spending billions on for decades! If a Chally, or a Leopard, or a Jav is being used to kill and destroy/degrade the disgusting Russian Nazis, then I don’t care who is pulling the trigger! As for corruption, damn yes of course it’s happening, it’s a newly “democratic” nation, a certain percentage will of course be allowed to “disappear”! No different than the rest of the world mate, cheers!

Please, how many posts have you made on this website?

lol, lmao

Just figured out what “lmao” means ….😂

The problem is that those sort of fire suppression Systems require the infrastructure to be intact…if you blow up a data centre with a missile it’s fire suppression will not work…if you look at a lot of out of control fires after warships are damaged its because the fire main gets destroyed and is OS. You need to have distributed fire suppression and for that you need lots of Johnny on the spots.

Understood, but my point is that some of this can be taken over by technology.

it’s a balancing act.

Exactly.

Most accom spaces on ships have dry riser sprays fitted. it means you dont need to be in full fire fighter rig( BA, Gold Suit, Boots, hood, helmet gloves, 3 man team with TI and 2 hoses) to fight the fire. Plug in a hose and open the valve. Its a lot easier. You can then re-enter in a more relaxed manner with a hose not turned on which is a lot easier.

Post damage you do need bods on the ground. A T23 managed before all the extra accom up ticks where added for augmentee posts.

The most important thing is that you need to know the systems , secondary power supplies, emergency power supplies and how to cowboy the S*it out of a system to keep it running so that you can fight it. If nothing else a T23 taught a lot of people, me included, how to be “creative” doing FF DC and Battle Damage Repairs.

There is also the potential of crew loss. If you are running at minimum how many can you afford to loose? Whatever caused the damage is likely to have damaged more than the ship.

To escort carriers? Really?

Well, if you look back at the last deployment of the CSG, it was defence(diplomatic/trade) engagement.

One thing for you Graham – check out Task and Purpose on YouTube and the Polish AIFV – Rolls Royce and Perkings have a +1000 sets a piece from that order with more to follow. That’s some serious income for UK PLC.

(When was the last time a major naval platform visited Poland for “Defence Engagement” Hmm!).

CSG21 was as much a Freedom of Navigation mission and integration with USMC as a diplomatic/trade event. HMS QE sailed with a full complement of escorts albeit one was US (The Sullivans) and one was NZ – and a fair number of F-35Bs embarked.

Dear Graham, we have different perspectives – natural. Yes, I acknowledge there was a FONOPS conducted, and QEC rather than challenging the PLAN slipped away at night… Hmm.

So we have some similar experiences but different views; it’s not a bad thing.

Dear David, many thanks. I think most people considered CSG21 to be a success – I gained a favourable view on it from watching the recent ‘Warship’ programme.
As a maritime nation we need a strong and effective navy but I get somewhat despondent when people put the army 3rd in priority, seemingly forgetting that the army bears the brunt of warfighting for the nation and, with rare exceptions and until recently, soldiers fight and die in operational deployments pretty much every year.

The Army are not third Sir, they have put themselves there. A bit like Chelsea FC apparently.

I’d disagree with your assessment of CSG 21, one 45 tasked with laying up because – it couldn’t function, US Marines taking pro rata the bigger share of flying ops and then so many ships on Diplomacy visits, the QE ran away in the middle of the night.

China needs facing down with might, anything else is humiliating.

However, Sir, both our hearts are in the right place even if we disagree. God bless.

David, I have seen plenty of contributors here who have ranked the army third in priority, meaning that if they were DS they would fund the navy the most, then the RAF and only then the army because they perceive the RN and RAF to be more beneficial to the nation’s defences. The point was not about ‘quality’ or ‘quantity’ of each service

Perhaps you take too critical view of a complex escort vessel having mechanical problems – that happens – and I don’t think it denigrates the value of the group’s deployment. As for USMC doing more flying ops, that is surely because Boeing had not built enough F-35Bs for the UK but had built more for the USMC. Again, I don’t decry the CSG21 achievement because our allies had more aircraft embarked.

Don’t know about QE running away in the middle of the night – I didn’t know QE had to aggresively confront the Chinese as part of their mission.

Its good to disagree, sometimes!

Graham, sure you meant LM, not Boeing? Not sure QE was ever ‘alone’ at any time.

Yes, Boeing, you are right.
I agree that QE would not have been alone – she had her escorts. I was just puzzled at David’s thought that she let the side down by running away in the dead of night; aggressive confrontation was surely not required.

That’s the popular upcomming fashion. But what happens when your totally autonomous sub breaks down on deployment with nobody onboard or nearby to fix it? “Can we have our Sub back please?”

I was stationed at RAF Cottesmore, and the Sargeants and Officers mess had real character, smelt like an old pub and a maze of corridors. It was great. Large comfortably rooms too, just the older style. When stations are closed down I think of the memories and good times had in these places. Once full of life and young men and women enjoying the unique lifestyle being in the Force’s is all about.

Agreed. Think of all that accomodation in Germany that has probably now been bulldozed. All those memories for British service personnel over a period of 70-odd years. A unique lifestyle indeed.

I watched a YouTube video recently of a guy driving around the old RAF Bruggen in Germany. Most buildings and married quarters are still in tact. Just very sad to see it all overgrown and abandoned. Used to house 4 frontline Tornado Sqns and was a very busy and important strategic camp. At least RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus has survived and has a secure future. Some RAF lads I used to work with said it was fantastic serving in Germany back in the heyday.

Not sure it’s that sad, there use to be 3 million Warsaw pact soldiers and 45,000 nucleur weapons pointed at us which is why those Tornado squadrons were there.

Now we can afford better health care and higher pensions with lower taxes because they are not needed.

Sounds like a big win.

Germany can guard its own boarder now

Think you are missing my point, Jim.

Better health care? What planet are you living on???

Mate my much older bruv was in the 4/7RDG in Detmold from 84-91, me and our younger bro visited him a few times before he left the mob, Detmold was a very well laid out and organised 1930s German Army base (still had the old rifle racks in each accommodation corridor)! But since early 2000 ish was turned into Asylum seeking person’s accommodation and community! To include the families accommodation the “hack”! Now a dump, blocks and buildings still there, but all ruined and forgotten and surrounded by disrespectful, selfish, none German dross!

Hi mate. Yeah, I understand a few of the ex Germany camps are now holding asylum seeker’s. I guess for somebody working in government, they are a good place to put them, but for people who have served and lived in these places they hold many fond memories.

You didn’t have the pleasure of Olen on the E313(to Aachen?) then?

I’ve watched the same vid, showed my dad it then went down memory lane with him remembering when we lived there back in the mid eighties. Walking to Douglas Bader school then waiting for the kids who lived off base to arrive from Elmpt and Dodenburgh on the bendy-buses. Loved it and can only imagine how enjoyable the lifestyle was for young service folk. It really is sad to see once vibrant stations overgrown and unused. Same with all the stations, camps and barracks in the UK we’ve lost over the last 20 years. Can only close them once.

It is sad to see abandoned stations. When I left the Navy, I did my resettlement course at Cottesmore. It was handing over to the Army then, but it just didn’t feel the same. It was very quiet and the airfield was closed. I wish I hadn’t gone back and seen it that way from how it was as a busy Harrier station.

I guess the notable decline of defence infrastructure will only really resonate with those people such as yourself that lived through the ‘halcyon’ days of Cold War but for me as a RAF brat of the day I like to think I have an appreciation of the way things were back in the day.

The Cold War was a bit before my time, but it’s always a shame to see these camps close down. So much history and life. But I guess we can’t keep these stations going for sentimental reasons. They cost big money to operate. RAF Scampton has just closed, which isn’t far from me. A lovely classic RAF station, another one gone. Fingers crossed, it is ear marked to become an aviation heritage centre and museum and a technology enterprise site. 👍If it isn’t filled with asylum seeker’s.

Most if not all accomodation used by BAOR/BFG has been returned to the German Government who have re-purposed it for civilian use. I have not heard of any demolitions.

Well according to Google Maps out of 3 locations i was in in Germany Mercer/Imphal Bks (completely bulldozed) and Roberts Bks (at least 4 accomodation blocks gone) in Osnabruck. Barker Bks in Paderborn still looks intact but certainly not used as it was. My point is that these were living breathing communities full of common purpose, good times and regimental tradition. They certainly aren’t now but I understand that times move on.

Morning Robert – re your comment “Officers mess had real character, smelt like an old pub”  Our Air Force officers mess was full of both character and many characters too! Happy days! Geez, I miss the ’80s and the Cold War. 😀

Happy day’s eh. It’s hard to explain to those who haven’t experienced it first hand the kind of atmosphere and good times had In these camps designed for war. An RAF station on a summer’s evening can be a magical place. I know that will sound ridiculous to some. But if you know, you know. 👍🍻

sure were Robert – wouldn’t trade the experience! Stay well.

You too mate 👍

Mushrooms?

I’ll get mi coat.

Ah Ilchester. Went out with a farmers daughter from Ilchester. Seems a long time ago now. 😄

Ilchester? Nice but if Roman history there mate but I digress lol

Yeah I was thinking more about the ex girlfriend 😆👍

What you’re trying to tell us is that you’re a Captain Wales wannabee who lost his virginity in a field behind a little country pub…
…

Baaaaa

Avionics Tech pal on Sea Harrier FA2’s, who just happened to have a girlfriend from Ilchester back in 2001. That ok for you David.

I was attempting humour, obviously, I failed.

It came across as taking the piss.

Lancaster? FFS David I had a big fuckoff caravan at Glasson Dock lol 👍

You studied? for a… Degree? How the foxtrot could you remember anything after the double lobotomy?

Nope….my daughter did, I visited and pretended to know what the fuck the conversation entailed 🤪👍

I’ve had that in Latvia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic – all had Masters. Although the providence of the Slovak students quallies is questionable given their propensity to wear short skirts, black, thigh high, stockings and blouses with an extra button open revealing their heaving bosoms held within black bras while defending their thesis work.

Luckily, I could 100% resist any temptation.

The Latvians were straight laced, DOUBLE Masters with long skirts, there was an inherent challenge that I took upon myself to discover the truth, that I undertook with the alacrity of the RMP training instilled within me.

Life has been SO tough!

It’s a good job you were highly trained in RMP resistance to interrogation techniques! My time in Slovenia on a number of range packages (and a job or two) gave me the exact same problems and a similar outcome…drunk, garbled a load of top secret shit, fell asleep and woke up minus my wallet…..

Er… I was an English teacher, they all fell to my suave interrogation technique, where I really placed emphasis on the position of the tongue… when discussing techniques… and they couldn’t rob me, I had no money 🙂

Damn! I wish I had your RMP pay scales, I would have been ok as couldn’t even have afforded to fly there…..you boys know how to do covert ops!!!!! 😇😂

But the question I posed on another thread is what tactical help would you buy?

40 year old Black Hawk design or AW149 to replace the Pumas etc al?

(Serious question).

Serious question deserves a serious answer and that will be timescale to numbers! Blackhawk quicker delivery as available, but older and will require replacement sooner! AW more modern (expensive) fewer procured but longer in service hence cheaper in the long run! But, when push comes to shove, we need a replacement within 2 years and it’s Blackhawk for me mate!

@John Clark, there’s your answer.

Thanks Airborne.

And which of your blokes did you say wore the stockings?

I’d been MP, not Royal.

Hi David, I used to write Unit Establishments (UE) for REME. The UE is of course the document that is the authority for a unit to hold x soldiers, y vehicles, z weapons etc – and is based on the unit’s mission. There is no way the army would want to reduce its Establishment number of soldiers (PIDs, as some people are now saying) otherwise that could not properly do its job. Strength, of course is the real world figure reflecting real world inflow and outflow and should ideally equal the UE figure but in reality never quite will.
If strength is low this doesn’t mean you cut the Establishment. If a football team has an Establishment of 11 players, you need 11 players to do the job. If you only have 9 men, you can’t do the job – you don’t cut the Establishment to 9 and transfer 2 posts to a rival team!
You only cut the Establishment if the Military Tasks reduce.

Dear Graham

Thank you for your explanation – many of us will have been educated by you.

However, may I take issue with a few points you made?

1st Bn Royal Scots were and are drastically undermanned; their tasks did not decrease, merely, they were given augmentees from other Regiments; paradoxically, that left the other Regiments undermanned to fulfil tasks.

A true politician would have cut the Regiment from the Orbat – cue incoming flack from SNP.

Secondly, giving PIDs to the Royal et al. would not and is not giving them to the opposition, merely allowing the other services to stand up in full, in their defence of the Realm, a task the British Army was/is having trouble doing.

Dear David, perhaps I did not explain very well. With Establishments, the only reason they get reduced is if politicians reduce the funded headcount (nothing to do with actual strength of the army) to make financial savings in a ‘Defence review’ or if the army decides that it wants a smaller level of manpower in a unit. Otherwise a unit cannot do its job – if you reduce the establishment of an infantry section from 8 to say, 5 or 6 soldiers, then it is unlikely to be able to do its job, unless some radical tactics or weaponry have been introduced to compensate.

If a battalion is understrength and under remit to do a battalion operational task, then of course it must be brought up to strength and several mechanisms are available – use of a sister battalion(s) as donor personnel or use of suitably trained and available Reserve Army manpower. This augentation has been done time and time again, all the way back to the Falklands conflict and probably before.

I am not that familiar with the expression PIDs (I think it is American), but if what it meant is ‘posts on the Establishment document’, then agreeing to a reduction (to gift posts to the Royals, means that the army would have to agree to reducing rifle sections from 8 to 5 or 6, as an example. Then the MCMs would only post 5 or 6 people in for that role – you are then stuffed!

If the army is understength by 10K people – then the last thing you should do is cut (for example) :
either 20 infantry battalions from your Orbat
or
15 infantry battalions, 2 tank regiments, a gunner regiment, an RLC regt and a REME battalion – or make some other such change to Establishments. You would be so screwed if you ever wanted to deploy at large scale of effort without those units. They just won’t exist and you cannot top up a non-exisiting unit with donor manpower.

Dear Graham

I do understand your point perfectly well, however, those establishment posts were never filled, those in phase 2 training were counted as trained, those medically downgraded and undeployable were kept on strength as the disaster known as Capita turned off the recruit pipeline, and circa 10k posts remained unfilled for several years and there was nothing the Army was capable of doing to come back up to strength.

Changing demographics, a very poor Army offer as against a Royal who have a good offer along with the Royal Navy and RAF could have filled those posts; can you see my point?

Dear David, I understand that you consider that if the army could not recruit/retain manpower such that strength matched Establishments, that the other services should have been permitted to increase their strength.

Establishments would have had to be amended – army Established posts reduced and RN/RM/RAF established posts increased. Reason – it is the Establishment that gives the authority to hold manpower (and vehicles, weapons etc).

BTW, soldiers who are in a unit filling an established post but who are medically downgraded, or otherwise non-FE, are on a long career course etc are still counted as being on the strength of that unit. That has always been the case. A unit will never be able to deploy all of its soldiers on its books for these reasons.

100%; however, the Army had to offer up those posts and the case made to the SecState Defence to transfer them.

In the 70s, 80s and into the 90s service personnel were medically discharged, it changed in the naughties and indeed that exemplar of killing machine, the SAS kept on blokes who, limbs lost, could impart knowledge – no bad thing for Tier 1 SF, however, line Bns and Corps Regts don’t have that luxury for deployment – they need every capable body deployed.

However, from the naughties, there was leeway – and the Army took advantage – meanwhile the Royal, RN and RAF were crying out for people.

I wore green by the way.

My point is that if the army offered up 10K posts to another service (RN/RM/RAF) they would have had to dis-establish 20 infantry battalions or the equivalent. I doubt you would find a CGS who would sign up to losing that (probably permanently) from their Orbat.

When units deploy they are made up to strength with all FE personnel, drafted in from other units. Its what has happened for donkeys years – robbing Peter to pay Paul. I recall seeing quite a few war-disabled guys in 16 AA Bde in Colchester whien I was there 2006-2009, including one who was minus a leg – I doubt they would let him deploy again but would have replaced him with A.N. Other for the next op tour.

Graham, can I ask an off thread question, please?

With the smoke dispensers on the Chally, Forces News always shows them banging out all the grenades. However, are they reloaded internally or externally?

I always thought they were externally reloaded and given their ability to break weapons lock on laser guided atgm, how the heavens can they be reloaded under hostile threat conditions?

On each side of the turret are five L8 smoke grenade dischargers; the smoke dischargers are loaded/reloaded externally.

Challenger 2 can also create smoke by injecting diesel fuel into the exhaust manifolds, so reloading the L8 smoke dischargers in contact is not required.

Making smoke is an occasional and not a near-continuous activity, despite some ‘exciting’ videos.

That would be as ballsy as Airborne jumping out of a plane capable of flying and landing, when the tank was in an NBC environment; God in Heaven.

Yep, thats why they would not reload the smoke grenades in contact – just switch on the other smoke producing system.

Plenty of times a crew has to get out of a tank – to refuel, bomb up, do maintenance etc – do that in a laager (not lager!) when out of contact, of course.

Hi TW it was another one that specifically did a critique of the design process and philosophy. If I can find the reference I will stick it on.

I can’t believe that any munitions are included in T31’s price.

I think the Mk41 VLS and a 5” gun plus a full sonar suite and quietened hull/drive train may have made the difference.

So I think some pruning is required back to closer to T31 specs.

The NS100 radar isn’t the Artisan sets off T23? So that and the CMS are all new.

More the launch cells etc for the Sea Ceptres are carried across from the T23. Hopefully our stocks of Sea Ceptre missiles are more numerous than that.

I can’t believe the requirements for the T32 included
“ the Mk41 VLS and a 5” gun plus a full sonar suite and quietened hull/drive train”
That’s essentially a T26 you’ve described. Why would they do that instead of simply building more T26s?

The CMS is likely to come down to who wins the contract for T32.

So take T31 as a starting point.

Assume it is £300m a copy due to inflation.

Then what is added to beef up the costs?

MK41 VLS – £25m
5” gun – £45m £183m for first three including training setup
Sonar 2150 – £4m

That leaves £26m to make things quieter.

Sounds about right to me.

It won’t, of course, be T26 quiet but it will be quite enough for active sonar use.

If it really was £500m then something quite expensive was being done to them.

‘Standard’ missiles?

That is really unlikely.

RN is going down the Aster / Ceptor combo (various flavours) as they are a really great system and work as well as not hitting ITAR.

NSM and FCAS are the other systems that will be there. I’d guess that FCAS might will be on T26 and might end up on other ships with VLS?

As it can probably be fired from SYLVER VLS that might be why T45 isn’t getting Mk41 and that it is getting CAMM-ER?

Haven’t heard that T45 is getting CAMM-ER. Just CAMM.?

Speculation, but there is a project with Poland to develop CAMM.

I’d don’t think the press releases specified the CAMM model number for T45 so it is all open.

SB, I think it was CAMM-EX, not sure if it siloed or quad packed vls. Hope they can squeeze in more than 24 CAMM on the T45s and fully utilise the MK41s space.
It’ll be interesting to see if the CAMM-EX can fit into the CAMM silo which if it can has great potential for even upgrading the T26s later on.

Nothing has been announced in any detail yet.

I think we will have to wait until T31 is further along before we know for sure.

In these times of heightened threats things are, clearly, a lot vaguer than they were set that against a more consistent drip of MOD press releases is also reality.

CAMM is under active development so it unsurprising that range and other capabilities are increasing. With announced collaboration and projects.

Tend to agree actually. So what are the missile targetting limits of the T31 radar?
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/04/thales-ns110-radar-for-uks-type-31-frigates-passes-test/

As I’ve said elsewhere that may not be the limiting factor is other radars and sensors are networked together.

It might acquire the target from a T45 or QEC with a very powerful radar suite and then send a missile to the location which then self guides using its own seeker.

It is a mistake to think of a platform in isolation.

Like Mk 41s, Sylvers come in different sizes, and the Type 45s use Sylver A50s, not the A70s needed to fire a cruise missile. This is why the French can fire MdCN, the naval version of Storm Shadow, from most of their FREMMs and we can’t from the Type 45.

I’m not sure why the French haven’t fitted Horizons or AAW FREMMs with the A70s and the MdCNs, but I’d expect we’d have a similar reason not to put FCASW on the Type 45s.

There is apparently space to swap out A50 for cells A70 on T45 – according to NL.

Do we know which length slot FCASW needs? There might well be versions with different ranges if Aster is anything to go by?

It would strike me as unlikely that T45 wouldn’t be able to fire them as it has the best radars.

Sounds like that’s still £100m off to me. Of course the Sunday Times may not printed the right numbers so I wouldn’t worry too much about trying to make things add up.

Exactly – my point is if you start with. T31 then you have to add a lot of warship to get to £500m.

It isn’t worth adding that much to as you are getting close to T26 money on a much better hull.

No need to go quite that far to make par, but yes. I put T23 GP as roughly par for a frigate that can fit in anywhere with anybody & do just about anything to some degree. T31 currently can’t do that. T23 can. Anzac frigates can. FREMM frigates can. F100 frigates can. One can hope you are describing T32.

T31 with NSM has plenty of firepower.

So I’m not sure what more you’d want really?

The medium frequency sonar piece can be added for relatively modest cost.

They are currently looking at 8 NSM (maybe – some time down the track – as the last 5 ASW T23 start to retire). That’s it. There is no backup for the then & nothing for the now. This is supposed to be a global deployable frigate capable of operating on its own. How? When? NSM is a very good missile, but first they need to get it on board. The sonar is not expensive, but is not fitted. The expected helo does not have sonar. There is no shipped launched LWT torpedoes. The guns don’t have a FC radar & a turning radar is blinded 50% of the time. Subsonic missiles are bad enough, but supersonic & above don’t give much margin for error. Most modern AShM use random movements in the terminal phase. EO is not all weather. Most frigates have 8 AShM, but some have 16. So it needs 16 AAW missiles minimum (this is a 6,000t class frigate). All of this could be added, but it means another refit & another delay & more money (even more than at build).

Ukraine must be teaching some lessons to someone somewhere.

I think T31 will slot in directly for T23 so the missile fit will be moved across.

I’d see NSM on the first one from the off for trials purposes.

We have no idea of the CAMM fit – it wasn’t announced.

When George does a drone fly over when it is in the drink we can count the hatches.

Things are being kept quiet about deliberately.

There were 13 hull mounted sonar bought for T23….so it isn’t impossible……

I do find it odd that Artisan wasn’t recycled although that would mean a CMS integration risk.

I’d like to see at least some T31/32 fitted with a 5″ gun rather than the 57mm, to enable decent NGS capability on out more expendable escorts. Having a decent sized gun only on our hugely expensive & too few AAW destroyers & ASW frigates is idiotic.

But it was designed when there were to be 5 GP versions?

So the GP versions got chopped to form T31 which was the spiritual successor to the Skoda class (T23). All down to budget.

I do accept the usefulness of NGS and often argue for it on here.

The thing is what is NGS for? Soft targets 57mm is fine for. Bunkers even a 4.5” might struggle with depending on concrete thickness etc. At that point you need a missile or an iron bomb.

Sure in ‘82 troops were very glad of 4.5” NGS and the various T21s and Counties did sterling work with their best assets. Although missile support was a bit of an issue as when Glamorgan tried to fire off its Sea Slugs in a show of shock and awe. After the first missile was fired off, the only shock and awe was the yelling of cease fire as it had hit the wrong mountain and nearly wiped out an SAS contingent! It did make a very big bang.After that nobody else dared suggest using Sea Slug in ground attack ‘mode’.

Here is a good account of NGS during GWII involving HMS Marlborough. Bunkers, troops in the open, supporting fires all done by her and her crew. She never received the GWII Battle Honours other vessels received because she was paid off not long after and it would be a tad embarrassing to issue the honour and then pay her off. She was a great ship and had a top crew.
HMS Marlborough’s Account of the Iraq War, March 2003 – Naval Historical Society of Australia (navyhistory.au)

Makes you remember how large RN still was even at GW1 & 2……

What’s being reused on the Type 31s from the Type 23s? A few missiles, some decoys, and maybe canisters for NSM (and maybe not). It doesn’t feel like a lot. I’m not even sure if the GPMGs and miniguns will be handed down.

All the major equipment items on the Type 31 — CMS, main guns, radars, sensors, sonar 270, ESM — are all new.

I expect the cost of Type 32 was because someone asked the Navy what they wanted, wrote down the laundry list and priced it up. Not enough questions about why the captain’s niece’s new pony needed to be on the list.

Spot on.

Love the “laundry 📃” bit… Lol 😁

Yes the T31 as designed ( without the navel strike missiles which will come) is a very defensive fit….and for a general purpose vessel that’s what you really want…something that can stick itself in front of the high value ship or merchant ships and but out a lot of defensive fire…also being able to take what comes at you and survive…seems to me that is exactly what the RN has got itself…never could quite understand all the moaning.

Even better it’s got bags of space to add and evolve as budgets and needs develop..ASuW…surface strike, carry whatever new autonomous systems the RN buys….home for the RM to do RM things….increase the AAW fit it’s all possible on these hulls.

So long as not FFBNW AShMs. CAMM is a great SAM & far greater range than the old seawolf or obsolete even in 1982 seacat. One major lesson of the conflict was a lack of AAA. Better SAMs help, but one thing T31s do have is excellent AAA. It always worried me when the normal AAA position in recent decades was given to autocannon only useful for defeating fast attack boats, with negligable AA capability due to a very slow rate of fire. Any other light AA could do that role while keeping AAA. Tere’s also the vital need to have some redundancy in case the SAM system or main gun is taken out, so the ship can stuill have some AA/anti missile capability.

CAMM-ER is comparable with Sea Dart in terms of range. It is a very, very serious AAW weapon. It is also faster and a lot cleverer than Sea Dart ever could have been.

As far as I’m aware the only differentiation in launch tubes is length.

Which is why I’m a bit puzzled why people as so ‘it only has CAMM on it’ and ‘we need more ships like T42’ – for AAW a T31 is way better than a T42 ever was even after all the upgrades.

There is no CAMM-ER in RN, enemy missiles have an increased range compared to 1982 and much more widespread..
We now have 70kg class missiles capable of being launched from out side CAMM range, so it is much easier to saturate a CAMM installation when the launching vector is not at risk.

I agree that the ER flavours are not currently in RN service.

But we can be pretty clear that they will be in the future. CAMM family is evolving.

Exocet exceeded the range of Sea Dart in ‘82…..

Some current missiles gave 1000km ranges.

Yes, but you needed an Etendard to launch an Exocet and it could take 1 only, you need an airport to take off etc , 1000km missile are even more expensive and rare. You can have several Bayraktar TB2 drone with 2x 70kg missiles with 50km range and CAMM cannot do anything about except trying to kill the missile.
What i am trying to tell is that you can get a mission kill on the cheap comparatively with technology that is much more widespread too with many more actors even not need to be countries.

I agree.

But those cheapo drone launched missiles are for EW / decoys / 57mm / 40mm / CIWS to deal with.

The systems assess the inbound target and assign the measures appropriately to the threat.

You wouldn’t waste a Ceptor on a cheapo inbound.

In ‘82 it was semi automated for Sea Wolf and very much man in the middle for Sea Dart – the other missile systems were IRL manual.

You cannot compare the layering connected to the CMS from now to then.

I agree 1000km missiles are more expensive and in the hands of a few and as we have seen with the Russian ones they are unlikely to find their target. These are not FnF missiles.

The Harpoonski missiles that were used against Moskiva were British tech assisted.

Exocet, as used in ‘82, would be little use in a modern context and even the updated versions put the launch platform in range of A15/30.

CAMM-ER/EX will be a thing as UK has a really good system to keep developing.

If you are preventing a mission kill of a 300M$ ship you should use everything at hand. Just the eventual damaged radar and the trip to the shipyards costs more and a CAMM.

No you don’t.

That way you deplete your big hitters against small fry.

Noise reduction was a specific option for T31 that Babcock offered which would have allowed T31 to operate as a more effective ASW platform however the option was not taken in cost grounds.

It makes sense given the respective roles of T26 and T31.

Yes it does make sense mate, especially as the Danish IH class, which the T31 is based on is already NATO ASW compliant in terms of quietness – whatever that standard is? Reasonable to assume that T31 will be no worse.

The Danes are in the process of converting their Absolom class to ASW frigates and fitting a TA. Not sure what the whole package entails, but, their propulsion system is the same as the IH bar two Die engines less. The IH are loosely based on the Absolom class, so, if the Danes are happy to use them as ASW assets, there is no reason why our T31s couldn’t perform the same as is, if fitted with a TA.

Purchasing and fitting a TA system probably leaves you some change from £10 million, not overly expensive I think!

A competent crew to operate it, much more difficult to conjure up.

Hi Jim
Where did you get this from, both the noise reduction option and the RN choosing to not take it up?
Thanks

Babcock have publicly commented to the fact that rafting of machinery is an option, but it needs to be taken up at build (not a retrofit). Have a look at the A140 website. They have various specs for different orientations of the A140 (including ASW). T31 is a down graded version of their base GP design. You can of course meld your own version. The Polish version spec shows how bad the T31 really is.

So perhaps the high T32 cost = T31 + noise reduction at build.

A DG will be on AV Mounts but those mounts wont be on a separate mount isolated raft. So the DGs wont be bolted directly onto the hull and any pipework will have flexible couplings between the engine and the ship systems anyway.

100%
T22 had a tail and DG x 4 and 4 x GT.
AB has GT and even GT Alternators….and a tail

CAPTAS 4/ Sonar 2087 is Active LF/Passive. If you know how a tail works, is constructed with vibration isolation module and operated with consideration for the length of stay and ships speed , a “noisy” tow ship isn’t a great issue as you will be dipping the tail below a layer at a long distance from the ship.

Drones can operate thin line arrays away from the ship

A number on here keep mentioning 24 CAMM. I must have missed the announcement. Last I heard, it was still 12. Both are well short of the T23.

Most front line frigates carry 8 AShM. Some 16. So anything less than 24 AAW misses & you need a friend to help out & hope they didn’t bring a friend.

In regards to the AShM the navy has purchased 11 sets of NSM…that is the exact number of type 45s and ordered type 31…so essentially it’s already ordered and procured the AShMs for the type 31…As for CAMM there are no fixed numbers just the up to 24…I would also note that there are plenty of frigates running around with a far less effective load out than even 16 CAMM…la Fayetteville class is just one example with nothing more than a close in last ditch SAM…or even the Aquitaine class FREMM..a large 6000ton high end escort has only 16 ASTER 15s and a far less effective AAW gun fit than a type 31….so if you were under air attack in enclosed waters the type 31 would likely outperformed and Aquitaine class….although I would be very surprised if the T31 ended up with 16 CAMM as the whole point of the soft launch silo is that they are very cheap.

It should be noted that RN is moving away from Aster 15. I expect all other Aster 15 users to follow. Convert Aster 15 to Aster 30 & replace with newer smaller quad packable options. The soft launch single silos are cheap but waste space. Every single Aster 15 can be replaced by 4 CAMM / CAMM-ER / ESSM etc. So a FREMM could be carrying 64 CAMM-ER rather than 16 x Aster 15. Ukraine is just an example of what’s coming down the pipeline (more on land, but a cruise missile is still a cruise missile). Who cares if your ship gets hit by a smart HIMARS rocket or up to date AShM. They are both going to hurt (one more than the other, but quantity counts).

Yes but the French are not moving away from Aster 15, the point was a hell of a lot of front line escorts only have 16 or so short range AAW missiles or not even that with only Close in defence missiles..so the type 31 whatever the fit will not be an outlier. As for MK42 silos used for CAMM, if you have free silos why not. But a strike length set of MK41 silos is massively intrusive into the ship, has a far greater weight and costs a fortune..the only reason to put them in is if you are using them for strike or other larger missiles..using them for just CAMM, but weight on the ship, takes up massive amounts of space and money compared to soft launch systems..light, cheap and not a lot of space…

personally I think the RN should leaver the hell out of CAMM and fit them in large numbers but that’s in soft cells…otherwise your just sort of making one key bit of CAMM pointless ( the soft launch) and spending cash for no reason…but 48 CAMM on every escort would be doable….leave the MK41 silos for other nasty stuff and make potential enemies wonder what is in them….if they know they are full of CAMMs they are not worrying about If the ships has 16 tomahawks hidden away.

I don’t think anyone uses a MK41 for NSM not even the USN. Besides which why use up a VLS slot when it can be loaded with other weapons that can’t be canister mounted (TLAM etc).

T26’s Mk41 VLS is for hypersonic something (FCASW). In other words, expensive missiles, maybe several millions of GBPs each.

NSM is a different class of missile.

Also, FCASW will come in 2030? I doubt.

Maybe.

Maybe T26’s 24 slots will contain

8 x Hypersonics
8 x NSM
8 x Cruise

Who knows?

For some targets a multi million pound hypersonic is a total waste of time.

I don’t believe the Sea Cepter cells will be recycled. The T23s recycled those from Sea Wolf, but all the illustrative models of T31, T26 and T45 have a different 6-cell block arrangement. Given that most of the expensive stuff comes in the canister, not the cell (the missiles being soft-launch, and without even a flip-top lid), I can’t see why you’d transfer the cells.

To be honest the cold launch silos are pocket change items, so agree I would not think it would be economical to reuse these.

The T23 fit was a means to an end.
There are no cells to transfer. The SC rectangular box fits into an adaptor in the round legacy Sea Wolf silo deck hole. Below decks in the SC mag ( Legacy SW) has some lower and upper SC cannister securing arrangements. No SW legacy gear to be seen except for the mag sprays.
Its just the way the RN fitted a square peg in a round hole to keep costs down and to get a far better system to sea as quickly as possible.

There should be no reason why the square SC cannisters cannot be closer together as they are on a DROPS pallet for Sky Sabre.

You could add NSM above the mid Bay as on the Canadian and Australian T26s which are looking like having NSM, TLAMs, SM3/6s, CAMM/ESSM. Quite a mix.

FCASW does not yet exist. If they were doing live fire testing, then you could be reasonably certain of a date within +/- a few years. If FCAWS does not turn up til much later, you need a plan that allows for that.

Have you looked at how far it is till the last T23 goes? What happens between now & then?

Well not being privileged with the RNs plan…but as around 30% do the escorts are in some form of refit at anyone time I would suggest that 11 sets are very adequate. Also. The last of the type 23s will be probably limited to spending most of their time as part of the ASW screen for either a carrier or amphibious groups as by that point the RN will at most have 8 dedicated ASW platforms ( so probably only having 3 type 26 and 23s active at a time)…I would therefore imagine the GP type 31s would get the NSM it makes a lot of sense.

“Expecting” the 5 T31 to get 5 NSM sets is reasonable, I agree.

But, expecting T26s to get FCASW “on time” is, very much unlikely. T26 will be “a frigate without anti-ship missiles” for at least several years. In that case, one possibility is to mount NSM take out from T23ASWs to T26s.

“CVTF’s ASW frigates having NSM”, situation will not change in this case.

Just as a possibility.

All clear. No charge has been recorded! 😆

Relieved to hear it, I’ve never even had so much as a library book late! 😏

Well it’s a nice number….far more shall we say rounded that 57.

Well 56 is even, whereas 57 is very odd 🤷🏻‍♂️

I suspect it may be a legacy of the dark-side of the force…
57mm is close to 2.25 Imperial inches

Not too mention our own 114mm 4.5″ guns!!

Oh, sorry Master, tis I is getting old 🙁

I’ll remember the head slapping. Thank you Master.

😉

Sean put me in my place, it is photon torpedoes and hyper drive now.

Sean, just a bit of extra. Not sure where I saw this but with the T31 based design offered for the Greek corvette program I believe they squeezed in 6*6=36 CAMM. And the NZ Anzac’s have a 2*6+2*4=20 configuration in their old MK41 slot, so you can chop and change it around a bit. When you see what the Danes put on their IH’s there’s huge potential for way more. 😆

Until the problem of how to reload a VLS at sea is solved, having more is always better in case a ship comes under sustained air attack.

And one of the beauties of the T31 ( and T45s too) is that there is a lot of spare space for additional weapon installations in the future. Given the way the T45s are being up-armed with Sea Ceptors and NSM, I suspect that getting the Mark 41 (or future replacement) installed on the T31 will happen sooner rather than later.

SC in its square container is a two man lift if you are feeling strong. It would not be beyond a Herbet Lott award to design a simple pivoting hoist , operated by hand, to lower a SC into a silo at sea. Its a lot smaller and lighter than other missiles.

I imagine the RN would want some type of powered system to reload them, and it being capable in conditions beyond flat calm. From an engineering perspective it’s certainly doable but it raises other thoughts…

Where do you store the extra Sea Ceptors? If it’s just below deck, and you have the deck space, why not just have more launch canisters.
If it’s deep in the ship, that raises other issues…

Or do we need a system to allow reloads from an RFA alongside.

Reload is going to be so slow, you’re unlikely to be able to do it mid-attack. So the ship has to survive an initial air-attack by using the Sea Ceptors available, before it could then think about reloading.

But for all those issues, it won’t be a capability that could easily save a ship.

KISS. Secondary ammo resupply to guns onboard is by hand using cruets , blocks and tackles and good old muscle power. 9 out of 10 times its quicker than using the powered systems.

Reload of SC. I would do a RAS to midships. Carry fwd, reload. To be fair reloading is always an issue for VL systems.

SW ( T22) needed the launchers to be reloaded. There was a ready use mag adjacent but you needed to get the missiles from the 4 Deck deep mag via a lift and then a hoist up to the launcher to refill that. It took time. Same goes for any weapon system. Reloading takes time but you do what you can as quickly as you can between breaks in the action.

Torpedoes take time to prep to go on an aircraft. 40 mins max for 2 x SR. ( It takes less than that)

Further on from my comment. We have RAS’d Exocet cannisters at sea. Broadsword and Brilliant both damaged exocet cannisters (doors) when down south in 83 during storms. Brilliant rafted next to Fort Austin and we craned off the damaged one and put on a new one.
The Fort boats apparently carried 8 spare exocet at the time!
Unlike Broadsword we on Brilliant removed the water from the cannister first so we didn’t nearly pull the crane off of its mount!

Same thing happened again years later when I was on BRAZEN. Damaged door flooding the cannister. We drained the canister and grp repaired the door. This time we removed it when back in Guz at the ammo buoys.

Sean – in reverse order.

Gun dueling is what happens when you run out of missiles or your missiles don’t or can’t perform. Remember, a lot of them (not all) are not reloadable at sea. How would you rate the current gun dueling in Ukraine? They are firing thousands of rounds a day (each). 19th century? More like early – mid 20th century except it’s 2023. Note that Russia & Ukraine are hardly 3rd world militaries.

There is space dedicated to 32 strike length mk41 cells. You can fit anything you like in this space – mk41, SYLVR, ExLS, single cell soft launch or a mix there of. There is also dedicated space for canister deck mounted launchers (8). You can fit systems elsewhere but that may effect other systems or below decks. So anything you fit in this space automatically reduces other options. If you fit 2 mk41, then you have halved your single cell soft launch space. If you fit 4 mk41, you have no space left.
You can of course fit CAMM in mk41.

Onboard torpedoes are on most NATO frigates. Perhaps they are all wrong? Then again, there is all these new unmanned small submarines. Perhaps a new lease on life? If your helo can’t fly, what your plan B? Plan B’s suck till you need one & don’t have one.

Yes the guns are controlled by the CMS. So? The CMS acts on the picture that it can see. If there are gaps, it extrapolates. Sometimes it gets it right & sometimes it gets it wrong. Dedicated AShM use random movements for just this reason. A FC radar stares at the target. It doesn’t ‘blink’. It works in fog, darkness & rain.

Aircraft for onshore bombardment requires either long range aircraft, a friendly airfield or a carrier. Using missiles like NSM work really well if you have a really well defined target, but you only have 8 so don’t get it wrong. Ukraine shows what artillery bombardment actually is. The last major NGFS moment in Iraq was supposed to be via aircraft, but they got repurposed & the fall back was RN & RAN frigates. Sometimes plan B becomes plan A. At least there was a Plan B. I doubt the RM cared how much one of these frigates was worth.

Since when is 2035 not the mid 2030’s? That by the way is 12 years from now. If the replacement missile for the T26 doesn’t turn up by 2030 as planned, then what?

Must have missed the sonar announcement.

If the max CAMM is 24, when there is room for 32 mk41, (= 128 CAMM), then surely every 8 cell bank of mk41 fitted reduces that number. I would have thought the max single cell number is closer to 48.

Please advise which ships are currently engaged in gun duels in the Ukraine-Russian war? To the best of my knowledge there are, and indeed have been, none so your “claims of thousands per day” seems rather fanciful.

Yes know fully about the Mark 41 VLS which are to be FFBNW on the T31s. Though the RN seems keen that these be fitted from the start. Yes correct, they can be be quad-packed with CAMM / Sea Ceptor.

While dedicated FC radar for each and every weapons is better, the integration with the CMS is better than your EOS suggestion.

If you don’t have aircraft available for close air-support of your troops as they are landing then you shouldn’t be landing them. Not only does it mean your troops are at risk but all your vessels. It’s pretty basic that first thing you establish is air superiority, which coalition forces did at the very start in Iraq.
(Pretty sure the RMs would be concerned if the frigates that escorted them were being sunk because someone thought it a good idea to sail them into range of shore-based anti-ship missiles just to impersonate artillery.)

Don’t be so disingenuous. You said the Type 23’s would start to be withdrawn from “mid-2030’s”.
I pointed out the plan is that the last Type 23 will be withdrawn by 2025.
Huge difference between these two.

Even if you missed the sonar announcer, it’s good practice to check facts before posting them as being gospel.

I’ve not seen any diagrams indicating where or how many Mark 41 VLS could be fitted. However, there only appears to be a single space for missile silos – the central section between the radar mast and communications mast.
So the RN will need to figure best use to accommodate Sea Ceptor silos, NSM canisters and Mark 41 VLS. As Sea Ceptor can be quad packed in the Mark 41, best space utilisation would possibly be to have all Sea Ceptor CAMM missiles quad packed into these.
The NSM is not Mark 41 compatible, though the JSM could be. So a major factor in the RN choice of how many Mark 41s it will decide upon is whether FC/ASW (which is Mark 41 compatible) will be delivered on time, or whether to leave deck-space for the NSM canisters.

How simple do you think fitting missing systems is? Over simplified is exactly how you view things not me, I live in the real world where just replacing stocks of existing systems is a process measured in many months. Never mind procuring something new from scratch. To add to that, if things are going down hill in terms of tensions building we won’t be the only nation to be looking to buy, we will find ourselves in a queue of potential buyers for systems that are not quickly produced.

How long have we gone before nsm arrives having little more than bad language to fire at a potential enemy?

We have capability gaps left right and centre across all the services, none of which are in a fit state to carry out the range of missions that’s required from them.

Whilst things don’t go to hell overnight they don’t always give the luxury of years of warning either which is what the policy you support is 100% reliant on.

And what systems are missing from the RN? or better still, how star spangled awesome do you think our enemies are? There are very good reasons why we haven’t until now purchased advanced anti ship missiles. You need over the horizon tracking and targeting to make them effective. And as someone who has served in a warship during real operations, I can assure you, the RN has everything it needs to deploy and fulfill any task that is asked of it. low end or high end warfare.

I bow to your superiority admiral. All those years of peeling spuds have clearly served you well.

And that comment is the perfect example of the kind of uninformed whopper you are. Every modern Navy on the planet has capability gaps. They all want new equipment and weapons delivered quicker than they are actually getting them. The RN performs better than most with warship availability and equipping them for operational deployments. Even the US Navy struggles.

All of NATO countries of which most are militarily incapable of defending themselves due to financial neglect, Sweden, Japan, Australia to name a few that are official as well. Not to mention all the wars the US drags us into as their vassal that waste our resources such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Our current military cannot defend them all if attacked simultaneously, we would not be able to defend more than 1 if even 1 at all on our own since we are so weak.

My questions to you – why are you so weak minded? Would you expect us to do nothing if our commonwealth friends were attacked also?

Example link below of Japan, the rest can be found with Google.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9704/

I knew from highly emotional tone and sweeping inaccurate generalisations of your comment, that if I set and baited a trap, then you’d walk straight into it… and you didn’t disappoint.

There is NO treaty obligation to mutual defence with either Sweden, Japan, Australia, or any other country outside of NATO.
Our only treaty obligation is under the Atlantic Charter, where if there is an attack on a NATO member, and they invoke Article 5, and this is confirmed by the Atlantic Council.

NATO is the most powerful military alliance ever seen. If one or more members were attacked then we would not obviously be fighting single-handedly. The entire alliance would be fighting.

You’re showing cognitive dissonance first saying that we should defend our NATO allies, then complain about our involvement in the Afghan war. The ONE occasion that Article 5 has actually been invoked after an attack on a NATO member.
Or perhaps you’re schizophrenic?

Given how well Ukraine has done with only aid and without a single military ally fighting alongside it, your claims about the U.K. are patently absurd and bordering on the hysterical.

The Commonwealth is not a military alliance. How many Commonwealth members committed military resources to the fight in 1982 when British territory was invaded?…

Tell me, if Pakistan and India got to war (again) on whose side do you think we should fight? Both sides presumably as they’re both members…

Welcome to the forum. You’ve now made 3 postings and you’ve managed to embarrass yourself publicly in every single one of them.
That takes genuine stupidity 👏🏻

I wouldn’t waste your time with him, pal. Clueless.

He certainly is, maybe now he’ll realise just how much… ok, it’s unlikely I know, but I try to remain an optimist.
Hopefully he won’t bother posting any more drivel like this.

Scared of my words are you?

😂🤣😂🤣😂

Scared that you’re probably entitled to vote and exercise other adult responsibilities, given your childishness.

Shivering in my boots over here.

More likely bootees, whilst sucking on your dummy…

Cuban heels actually. I’m a man of taste. Let me guess, you are wearing a pair of flip flops to go with your chicken legs.

Cuban heels 🤣😂🤣😂🤣

Can’t believe you actually admitted that.
Let me guess, paired with a pair of tartan flares, a woollen pullover knitted by your nan, a paisley shirt, and a kipper tie? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Joseph, Sean has given you a detailed and comprehensive answer to your post, do you not think its good practice to debate and defend your point of view? As Sean has demolished your post, do you not want to verify and defend your thought process?

It’s not semantics, in fact, you’re right about Treaty obligations. However, I’d suggest the Defence Agreements signed between AUKUS, and our ancestry would mean we would absolutely sail to her should she be endangered… and if we had any spare platforms.

It’s for another thread; interesting point.

Agreed mate.

Exactly, we are not dominant and have no empire. We are weak and you have submitted yourself to such weakness.

No vision, no dreams of strength and power. What national pride is there to be had in this country? There is no pride in being someone else’s bitch which we are. There for the beck and call of the USA only, incapable of launching our own military campaigns.

Only bitch around here is you.

Incapable of launching our own military campaigns? Guess I imagined the Falklands, Sierra Leone, Libya… all without the USA.

Falklands – defended our own territory which is the bare minimum. I don’t recall us invading Argentina to conquer them, do you? Argentina is not part of the British empire today and still Argentina talk about taking the Islands back.

Sierra Leone was completely pointless, the outcome was not Sierra Leone being British territory. We were the bitches of the Sierra Leone army beating up a bunch of rebels at their beck and call. Are we mercenaries now?

Libya – good lord, we were the bitches of the USA again here.

Oh I get it now, you’re a fascist!

I can’t think of another reason why we’d invade Argentine. To overthrow the regime behind the Falklands Invasion? Well the Argentines did that themselves, and it didn’t require British servicemen having their blood shed invading Argentine.
Sorry, you wanted us to invade Argentine to make it part of an empire that no-longer exists….
Yes, you’re a fascist.

We ended the civil war in Sierra Leone, that means less innocents dying… but being a fascist you don’t care about things like that.

The intervention in the Libyan Civil War was sanctioned by the United Nations Security Council and undertaken as a NATO operation. So you’re also ignorant, in addition to being a fascist.

How does it feel to be one of the Kremlin’s “useful idiots” – you’re too stupid to be actually be paid by them.

I’m not a fascist, I am an imperialist. Get it right for christ sake. I very clearly want to rebuild the British empire again. With it we can actually eradicate slavery once and for all as well as take back Hong Kong amongst many other glorious ambitions.

I’d rather be a imperialist dreaming of British power then whatever blob of weakness you are. Get on your knees and suck on Joe Bidens shlong, you are a vassal of the American empire.

No, you’re a fascist.

And clearly you’re a repressed homosexual too, given you quickly resort to such imagery for insults. But historically a lot of fascists seem to have been repressed homosexuals, and pederasts.

Are you from ROI? Your writing has a Catholic stink to it.

Interesting you project homosexuality onto me, is there something you need to tell the world? We can’t hear you from how deep in that closet you are. Say it louder.

Nope, I am an imperialist. Losers also resort to calling others fascist, what’s next? Am I racist, sexist and homophobic as well? Labels thrown around by the weak minded

Joseph, I really think it would help your mental health if you came out of the closet and admitted to the world that you’re gay. We live in enlightened times, you won’t be rejected or ridiculed for it. You’ll no-longer have to feel guilty about “sucking shlongs” as you phrase it.

Freeing yourself of this self-loathing might even release you from your fascism and religious discrimination.

One thing is pretty clear though, you’re not a Brit.

Still banging on about homosexuality are you? Has the catholic church still not come to terms with it? Does it consume your mind because you have no reply to my visions for the nation and dreams of empire?

I know you have no visions and are OK being weak, feeble and a vassal bitch of the US. there there, have a glass of warm milk. It’ll be alright. Hush little baby don’t say a word.

You’re the one that raised homosexual acts into a geopolitical debate. Clearly such acts are never far from you waking mind.

It’s patently obvious to any Brit that you’re not one of us, so stop with the phoney “visions of the nation” fascism, nobody takes anything your posting seriously.

Twat.

As a proud imperialist, perhaps you can advise whether my eight year old would best be sent up chimneys, risking permanent lung damage and limb breakage due to falls, or to the wollen mills with the inevitable deafness and where he might have a limb severed as he crawls under the machinery to collect scraps. I need to know which is likely to leave him most fit for military service. He’s small and has his heart set on being a powder monkey, but I said he must wait until he’s twelve. We need the income.

Lions led by donkeys. Ah yes, those were the days.

Are you Polish? Naturalised British?

And your knowledge of the issues around Sierra Leone would appear to be lacking. Bit more than “beating up” rebels, I can assure you.

You are living in the past, mate, by about 150 years. National pride and influence isn’t solely based on the size of our Armed Force’s.

Ignore him mate, he’s pretending to be a Brit. He’s too stupid to realise his choice of vocabulary and phrasing betray his impersonation.

Think you are right pal. Complete fruit cake 😄

Yes mate, that’s agreed. I was ref to his benefits culture comment only.

Its a delicate balance between quality and quantity, and mass does not make a military on its own. We know the variables. 👍

The truth hurts so it’s easy to comfort yourself in lies and weakness like a sheep in a herd scared to stand out. We are no longer the lion but the sheep and you’ve embraced such mediocrity. How old are you? You must be old and part of the useless generation that made us this weak in the 1st place squandering the efforts of our forefathers so you can get free money for providing little use.

This country lacks ambition, it lacks a desire for power. We can’t live off the reputation of our empire forever. It is the empire that ended slavery and freed the shackles, it is the empire that gave us economic strength and the capability of enacting our wills and change on the global stage.

Now we are a nation of beggars, welfare queens who squabble over benefits and scraps while the other nations chase power to mold the world in their vision and not to ours. We’ll be back in shackles once again.

50. And give the insults a rest, you know nothing of what I’ve contributed to my community or not.

Yep part of the generation that made us so weak in the 1st place. No wonder you defend the welfare state, you are one of them. A waste of over 240 billion GBP a year that would be better spent on our military, infrastructure as well as research and development so we can start colonising again and rebuild the empire your generation handed over to violent thugs in exchange for nothing. Things are going great in South Africa aren’t they? It’s not like we left the front door open so Russia could walk right in and steal our influence.

Beautiful! 😂 I’ve never claimed a £ of benefits in my life as it happens, but say what you like. If you read further up thread I did say to Robert you had a point in that regard.

As for the rest. I’ve read some luny posts in my time, and you’re right up there with the best of them.

Start colonizing again? 😆 As Arnie once said, WTF are you???

Huge doubt on your zero benefits claim.

I am an imperialist who wants to rebuild the British empire so we can eradicate slavery once and for all, take back Hong Kong amongst many other glorious ambitions. I despair at seeing castrated slaves being bought on Arab slave markets which I know you have no awareness of because you live a sheltered life.

Yes of course we need to start colonizing, our birth rates are leading us to extinction and replacement. We need to get shagging already and no better way to do it than colonising. We need to also colonise the stars too as the next era will be the space age.

Have some vision and ambition. I have zero shame in mine.

🤣🤣🤣. That’s a weapons grade crack pipe you’re smoking!!

You want in on some of my stash?

I’ll pass. I’ll stick with the homebrew. It does less damage. I’m with you on the more shagging though.

😄🤣

Doubt away. You’ve come on here like a whirlwind insulting left right and centre, making accusations, and will probably be gone or banned as quickly as you appeared.

“which I know you have no awareness of because you live a sheltered life.”

At it again.

Agree on the Space point BTW.

Let me borrow your comment – “Have some politeness and respect, I have zero shame in mine.”

Some advice, I think the UKDJ is the wrong forum for you! I wonder if you have any subject matter knowledge at all beyond your fantasies of Imperialism being resurrected.

Whirlwinds are forces of nature, symbols of strength, being polite for the sake of being polite has no use in a world of intolerance and evergrowing numbers in power enemies.

Insults are simply words, not violence. If I’m banned for that then it simply confirms my perspective that we are too weak as a nation to stand up and seek power. We’d rather protect each others pointless feelings then rip the bandaid off and face the reality we are a dying nation bereft of strength.

Respect is earned, not handed out like welfare checks. You don’t have to respect me and I don’t have to respect you.

This is a UK military website. Where else can I push my visions and views of military power for the sake of glory?

I’ve seen some whoppers in my time on this forum, but you take the biscuit

Ok then Joseph. What have you done for king and Country? Because I don’t believe for one second they would let a whopper like you in the Armed Force’s. I served for 14 years in the Royal Navy. What have you done??

“Where else can I push my visions and views of military power for the sake of glory?”

An incel chat room maybe?

DM , eloquent as always. An excellent reply.🙏

See what I mean mate.

Indeed. Mate, my conversations with this guy are at an end, no point.

Yep, utter nut job.

What’s George Parker normally like? he’s having a right old rant at me about Ukraine. Not sure what to make of him.

If I’m thinking of the right poster, he has differing views due to his Cold War experiences which colour his view on Ukraine.
But he’s never shown any disrespect to me personally, so to me, not a Troll.
I’d not seen these exchanges I’ll take a look.

He’s being very polite. Can’t fault that.

He’s a Russian troll.

Morning Danielle. It seems George’s posts have vanished from this thread, so I can’t reply to him. (George if you see this, sorry, pal). Saw last night more money has been released for Tempest, which is positive, but it’s still relatively small change in the grand scheme of things. £650M I think it was.

Morning mate. Yes, I saw that on Twitter. I fear for that program.

There seems to be lots of positive news, but until serious money is committed, it will always have a massive question mark against it. If the technology demonstrator sees the light of day, that will be another major step forward. We haven’t even seen the official RAF requirement for what they want this system to do.

I will be highly surprised if anything comes of that program- there will be some on here in 5 years still grasping at the straws/crumbs but I think the realists will know its all smoke and mirrors way before then.
Although some of the content of some posters is questionable some of the sentiment is not.
If we look at where the UK is defence wise as a whole surely we have to question UK governments commitment to anything substantial.
I dont think we know what we want to be – we most certainly do not provide the monies needed and when we do we seem to squaff money up the wall.
We are not and never will be anywhere near the force we puport to want to be without an overhaul of strategy, doctrine , procurement policies.

I agree, will be amazed if anything comes from it.

Even if it does, it’ll be in so small numbers it will be bordering on being irrelevant.

He’s trolling. Stick a Russian accent onto his words and hey presto… he’s a Russian troll.

Maybe he is, maybe not. I once said that of another well known Troll in MK, as I like to give the benefit of the doubt, and I was wrong.
My learned friend Airborne is the Troll sniffer in Chief around here, what is his take?

He has 16 ranting posts, getting worse over less than a 24 hour period mate. Certain terminology which isn’t in common usage, and a narrative which is anti UK and NATO allies. Limited knowledge of global politics….he is now on the “watch and shoot” troll monitor 😂👍

😆 Crikey, I’d better look him up.

And now you insult Daniele, a poster who never insults anyone, has vast subject knowledge and is an advocate of a strong, deployable UK military. How sad, as your posts are now appearing as the simple comments of a troll. Why give abuse when none was warranted?

Well said 👍

Babcock say that ASW noise reduction of propeller and machinery can be built into the Arrowhead 140 hull. I don’t know whether these features were incorporated into the RN T31.
https://www.arrowhead140.com/modular-system-specific-roles/

TBH, I’m not sure what Noise reduction features are being built in either. It might be that some of the requirements for a ‘quieter’ vessel are designed in from the outset, as long as they remain within the constraints of the overall budget?

Read somewhere but lost the link that the noise reduction would have to be incorporated at build time. No doubt it would push the price up substantially….maybe that’s the issue; you can’t adopt a FFNW strategy to reduce the cost like you can with weapons fit.

Afternoon Graham,

There were 16*T23
3 sold off
2 more have gone Montrose and Monmouthshire (?)
Leaving 11
Argyll is dry docked until Year End
Iron Duke is prepping for sea

Westminster 2024.

Northumberland LIFEX, available

Richmond LIFEX and PGMU, available.

Somerset. LIFEX. Post FOST

Sutherland. Back in 2024

Kent prepping for sea pre FOST.

Portland On ops

St Albans LIFEX reft and PGMU upgrades. Out of dry dock, prepping for sea, pre FOST

So, quite a few prepping but pre FOST…
And when they do come online have Exercises pencilled in for them. Most need the pgmu programme to keep going.

Destroyers
12 planned
6 cut

Leaving
Daring 2024

HMS Dauntless pipped. Prepping for sea.

HMS Diamond prepping for sea.

HMS Dragon. Back in 2025

HMS Defender on ops

HMS Duncan not PIP’ed. On ops.

NavyLookout is your friend.

Good over view David.

Thank you Daniele.

Thanks David. I had not realised we were down to 11 Type 23s on the books – surprised there has not been a big fuss made about it in Parliament by HCDC & other pro-Defence MPs etc – or by The Sun newspaper!

Hey Klonkie-talking of Frigates-we were down at the club last night having a braai and some old guy was playing music from 70’s including Tully Workshop(Saffer group from those days)-the song ‘Bucaneer’
“But the Royal Navy Frigate came and rescued me at last
She put one across the bow and fired one into the mast..”😀

Hi Geoff , geez I remember that song so well! 1977 I think it was. Trust the braai was lekker!

I’d like to make the crucial point that the ‘Sonar 270’, to be fitted to Type 31 is a Torpedo Countermeasure & not anything to do with Submarine detection, it’s a replacement Nixie.

Even the popular but limited Type 21 Amazon class had two Sonars & two triple ASW torpedo launchers & it was sold off because it couldn’t have Towed Array. The Type 31 has No ASW capability, if the Russians or Chinese wanted to sink it, they’d send a Submarine… The First Sea Lord stated ‘the T31 is a low end frigate’. It’s designed to escort tankers & merchant ships to keep trade sea lanes open, against piracy.

What it needs is Mk41 8×4 & a 5′ Mod4 gun, although due to cost constraints, no chance & they’ll be no NSM to put on them. It’s funny how the export versions built by Poland & Indonesia will be far more capable than our T31. Even the Iver Huitfeldt class with their Mk41 8×4 with ESSM & SM-2 & long range radar are superior.

To be fair I don’t think either Poland or Indoneasia intend to operate their 31’s 6,000 plus nm’s from their homebase.

thank you CGH . re your last paragraph, you have my complete agreement.

Send code settings, over? Diky moc.

Thanks David. So you doubt the veracity of the 24 escorts target figure?

6*45
5*31
8*26

Does not make 24 Escorts by End 20s

And Ben Wallace, iirc, repeated this fallacy, this object misrepresentation of the truth.

Lab or Con, anyone who undermines or misinforms about our Armed Forces should be reported to the Standards Committee and banned for 10 days, so that a recall vote can be issued.

(Traitors Gate is too good for them).

I am very impressed that the Navy and the RAF can actually achieve upgrades to in-service kit, be actively planning the next platform (or even cutting metal) and also be thinking about and scoping the one after that.

The army used not (over 20 years ago) to have a problem in regard to delivering upgrades and fielding replacement kit in a timely fashion – but now so many of our AFVs are 35-60 years old and are often little modified!

Given the situation we got ourselves into it was a good decision to rejoin the Boxer program. Seems to be a good if pricey, vehicle but the build rate seems glacial. Once again we are having to rebuild industry skills as we go. We are relying a lot on our competent German friends; the BAE – Rheinmetall partnership. Of course we could ask GD to put the CTA turret on Boxer – speed things up? What do you think 🙂

Boxer always was a good choice to replace Saxon and residual FV430s (ie those not replaced by Warrior in the 80s), as was the original intention, way back.
Boxer was a good choice for the infantry of the two medium-weight Strike brigades – since abandoned.
Boxer (if not equipped with a beefy stabilised cannon) is a terrible choice to replace Warrior – it would have ben much better to complete the Warrior upgrade programme 9WCSP).

Agree that the build rate is glacial – the army needs a swift build programme.

I agree that we need to see if the CTA turret would fit on Boxer for those vehicles that are intended to replace Warrior, but that turret was built by LM, not GDUK.