The Ministry of Defence is looking to buy up to 44 New Medium Helicopters (NMH) to replace existing helicopters.
The plan is to replace the existing fleet of Westland Puma HC2, Bell 412 Griffin and some other helicopter types with one type, the New Medium Helicopter, say the British Army. It is understood that the helicopters will be operated jointly by the Army and RAF under Joint Helicopter Command.
According to a news release:
“The announcement was made in the Defence Command Paper. It will form part of the Army’s programme of transformation, Future Soldier, which will deliver an Army that is leaner, lighter, faster to respond, and more effectively matched to current and future threats. The New Medium Helicopter Programme will see four of the medium-sized helicopters currently in service across Defence replaced by one new helicopter. This will include the Bell 212 that is used by the Army Air Corps in the jungle areas of Brunei.”
The scope of the contract will also include the provision of training capabilities and a maintenance/spares package as well as design organisation scope.
The purpose of the contract notice, say the Ministry of Defence, is to invite potential and interested suppliers to formally express interest in participating.
Here are the specifics, according to the contract tender notice
The high-level requirement for this procurement consists of:
i. A range of up to 44 platforms.
ii. Design Organisation integration services for Government Furnished Assets (GFA) and Mission Role Equipment (MRE).
iii. Up to 2 x aircrew and rearcrew Flight Simulation Training Devices (FSTD) at the UK Main Operating Base (MOB).
iv. Training courses for Qualified Helicopter Instructors (QHIs), aircrew and groundcrew maintainers.
v. Courseware material for enduring aircrew and maintainer training.
vi. An Initial In-Service Support Package, to include:
• Initial Provisioning Spares.
• Deployed Support Packages (DSPs).
• Ground Support Equipment and Specialist Tooling.
• Technical Publications and Aircrew Publications.
• Logistics (Spares) Management.
• Forward and Depth Maintenance.
• Design Organisation (DO) modifications and technical support.
The Ministry of Defence say that the ‘New Medium Helicopter’ intends to rationalise its existing multiple rotary-wing requirements into one platform.
“NMH will provide a common medium-lift multi-role helicopter, fitted for, but not with, specialist Mission Role Equipment (MRE) and able to operate in all environments in support of defence tasks.”
Any other information?
According to the contract tender, the Ministry of Defence “anticipates that there may be a requirement to procure additional work through this contract”.
Additionally, the contract duration is anticipated to be 7 years (as referred to in section II.3) but “will be determined by the agreed production schedule that will reflect the supplier’s ability to complete delivery of aircraft and an initial support phase”.
The support solution duration is anticipated to be approximately 5 years from the first aircraft delivery, taking into consideration the manufacturer’s delivery schedule, or until aircraft production is complete, whichever is later, according to the tender.
Training services will commence prior to first aircraft delivery to support entry into service.
What are the options?
These four have been offered by their manufacturers.
Airbus Helicopters H175M
Airbus Helicopters has indicated that it will offer a military version of the H175, designated as the H175M. It would be manufactured at Airbus’s Broughton facility located at Hawarden Airport in Wales.
Bell 525 Relentless
American manufacturer Bell Textron indicated in February 2022 that it intends on offering the Bell 525 Relentless.
Leonardo AW149
Leonardo intends on offering the AW149. Leonardo said in a 2022 press release that Yeovil will act as a ‘final assembly facility’.
Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk
Sikorsky has indicated it expects the latest generation of the S-70M to meet the requirement. It is understood that the firm plan to assemble the aircraft in their factory PZL Mielec in Poland.
S0, Airbus H175M it is then, made in Wales. Boxes ticked.
Lets hope its not another AJAX.
I doubt it it looks like it has all the Vim required in such a platform… well 99.9% anyway.
No, it won’t be. It will be supplied by a proper company that knows what it is doing.
The H175 was actually a joint venture with CAIC of China, Airbus said they are doing the work to take out all of the Chinese components, but would be the worst option. They will largely be final assembly so no design skills either…
As is the latest offering from Leonardo.
The difference is that Airbus hasn’t broken quite so many promises in the past.
https://uk.leonardocompany.com/en/news-and-stories-detail/-/detail/aw149-skills-sharing
It’s more the Chinese content I would be concerned about. What can we expect, the Government would rather buy American kit then domestic (see latest Apache purchase) and should really be ordering additional and replacement Merlins but they are trying to do a ‘me to’ with the yanks on exotic tilt rotor aircraft which will be unaffordable and probably not suitable to our needs. In the background why would Leonardo invest here? As with ships we should be looking at a regular drumbeat of orders or accept we won’t have domestic helicopter production. What we are doing seems to be… Read more »
PMSL Not possible like much of the current aviation industry and i quote from a French based company. 75% of its electrical switch gear and controls includes parts made in china. assembled in different European countries, so then becomes a complete part made in the EU.
Whitehall party game, preferably played whilst naked and blindfolded. Who can think of a new way of robbing the British taxpayer of billions of pounds that we then give to our friends, while the public carry on thinking that we are doing them a favour.
There’s only one serious contender here, isn’t there?
It depends on what the ‘contending’ is?
Is it to
I suppose the question is UK prepared to take a COTS solution as is and say here is the budget now deliver it. Get paid when done as is any commercial contract?
Or are we going to get sucked into the usual well worn routine of ‘optimisation’, ‘refinement’ and ‘gold plating’?
I’m sorry but how can you possible expect the army to buy of a shelf stocked with so many proven solutions. None of these will have the correct boiling water device installed and all will lack sufficient power for the heavy armour required in 25 years time. Clearly the only solution is to take an existing proven design and spend several billion f**king/future proofing it up.
Why can’t i “like” your comment ? 👍 That’ll have to do.
I think voting on posts was a brief experiment a few years ago, long stopped.
It will need tracks as well as…..and a hotel booking system for the RAF.
Yes, Blackhawk
Why can’t Merlin be in the running?
Surely offers far more cost savings as being an existing platform.
My opinion on those shown is blackhawk is surely too old a platform, and the others just look commercial to be military.
The Merlin is a heavy lift helicopter. This procurement is for something more lightweight
We could have gone something NH90 like back in the day and used it to replace everything but the MOD thought having a medium light medium medium and medium heavy lift helicopter fleets was a much better idea.
Australia has ditched their version of NH90s I believe. Getting UH-60M Blackhawks instead. I think that says something.
That and I believe Sweden and even a few others bought Black hawks to fill in roles for the NH90 because it was over promised under delivered. Black hawk might no the the prettiest bird in the air, It might be yank, But it works and the knowledge base, costs, and just global supply chain for it makes it a safe bet for an aircraft you know will do what it promises to do.
Frankly, anything other than NH90 is a much better idea…So good the Australians are replacing theirs with new Blackhawks that their NH90’s were originally replaced!
You have to ask, why the Australians have decided to replace the NH90’s with Blackhawk’s…
Because it’s a pile of steaming pup that’s why Australia is dumping them as fast as it contractually can, along go with the equally poor Tiger….
I like the NH90, but it does seem expensive to run.
NH90 Has some serious issues with running costs per mile, a lot of users are cutting is inflight hours. Australia has back tracked and gone back to Black Hawk
NH90 has failed to meet requirements in Australia so No! for some reason Australia is going for the Blackhawk, another bad idea, but let the users decide they should know what they want.
Chinook is heavy lift, Merlin is medium lift. This procurement is for Medium lift.
Merlin is a Heavy lift, why the RAF Dumped it didn’t need its capacity.
Merlin out of service date is 2030.??
Chinook is heavy lift. The RAF described the Merlin HC3/3A as a medium support helicopter, although I agree that it carried far more payload than Puma. Maybe Merlin was Medium+, rather than Heavy. Why would the RAF suddenly not need the capacity of a transport helicopter? It was surely because the RN need was greater. In 2012, the RAF’s Merlin HC3/3A fleet began to be transferred to the RN for use by the Commando Helicopter Force, due (I believe) to the demise of the Sea King. Wikipedia: “The Merlin HC3 replaced the ageing Sea King HC4 as CHF’s medium-lift transport… Read more »
Aw149 is a fully genuine military design. AW189, its civilian brother, has been derived from AW149.
Merlin is massively expensive to procure and maintain.
My point being in that we have crews already trained, spare parts being available. In the long run, especially for having small numbers in numerous types it’ll be far cheaper to have a larger single type
Haven’t we already procured Merlin?
Yes of course.
But it is for high load / high endurance use.
The design is a pain from a maintenance point of view particularly wrt gearbox maintenance hours.
It is a great platform but totally overkill for medium cab.
I alwasy through Merlins were supposed to replace Sea Kings and Puma’s which is why RAF got them in first place! would make much more sense for everyone, simpler supply lines. all ground forces would only have 2 types to have to be trained in for enplanning/deplanning.
If anything, Merlin replaced Wessex in the RAF.
Wessex was such an amazing design, I can remember my father and myself building airfix models way back when
Yes, 60 Sqn operated the type at Benson alongside the Puma force from 92 on.
28 Sqn in Hong Kong till handover in 1997and 84 Sqn in Cyprus, through to after 2000 when I left, both Wessex Sqns.
That was even smaller lol, Merlin is listed as Medium lift Helo, ther puma carrys 12(16 if you put centre seats across door which restricts access) the Original Lynx used to carry 8, so why do new improved (wildcat) only carry 6 not even a squad. Merlin can carry full platoon
wild cat has a 3rd crew station in the rear.
I get it would be nice to have options for different airframes etc but with our purchase history if surely makes sense to streamline. Merlin might be slightly large for the intended role and more expensive but can take a heck of a lot more damage than a converted commercial type, and offers plenty of redundancies and options going forward. If the army wants smaller helos then what’s wildcat for just order more of those (although personally they should be for the navy too)
This is for battlefield lift. Wildcat is crap for that, beings used as a recc asset primarily in support of the Apache force.
Wildcat is already operated by the FAA as the HMA2 and successor to Lynx and could do with more.
It is a shame the Wildcat did not get the foot longer cabin of the Lynx 3/civil 606 prototypes.
The Merlin is a glass jawed aircraft. By that I mean it cannot take small arms damage without needing a lengthy maintenance period to repair it. The reason is the upper fuselage is composite, which was used to safe weight. But is an absolute bitch to repair with full integrity. Case point is its performance whilst in Afghan. An aircraft would be off the flight line from 4 to 6 weeks awaiting skin repairs due to small arms damage. As the damage had to be assessed by Yeovil, who then produced a work plan to repair it. This meant the… Read more »
That’s why we need Blackhawk, relatively simple ( in comparison to the new converted civilian types on offer) and sturdy, easy to patch battle damage and back into the fight….
I had a mate who served a few tours in Iraq, he always laughed at the patchwork quilt US Army Blackhawks that had been in country for a while, tough as old boots and dependable, exactly what the forces need and a perfect complement to Chinook.
Wildcat sort of replaces the Gazelle, as it has armoured protection.
and Wildcat should tell us all we need to know about buying wrong just because it has a UK STAMP
RAF dumped the Merlin Fleet for some reason, was never made clear but it was reported they wanted to upgrade the Chinook Fleet.
Merlin is to large to replace the planed types like a Puma, as Merlin is a good deal bigger than a Puma, for exmple a Merlin wont fit in a Herc c130. its to tall and needs 1000s of hours of stripping
Puma don’t fit in a Herc without being stripped down (i know i’ve done it)
It’s just to big, the merlin is huge, it’s more of a small heavy lift rotor that a medium rotor.
The Merlin is too large, it has a similar footprint to the Chinook. It is not a battlefield support helicopter as it has a number of design flaws. It is perfect for ASW and for the assault role the Royals need.
Why is the Blackhawk out of the running? Especially as its the only combat proven airframe, has a massive spares and support package, plus gets constantly updated.
Why would Blackhawk be too old? Its a well proven design that just keeps on improving with age, plus of course it was designed from the outset as a Military Helicopter unlike the other commercial designs being put forward.
Not really a current platform though it’s produced in Italy and Americanised.
Well we can all agree to disagree. As I’ve stated surely the preference would be Merlin or wildcat, at the very least whomever gets selected it MUST be made in the UK so blackhawk is out of the running. I’m just not a fan of the “militarised” commercial types being pushed, how much damage and redundancy does it offer over Merlin or blackhawk? All we want is the best equipment for our personnel at the best price and UK industry input to grow the economy but I’m sure the MOD will faff it up as usual and pay twice for… Read more »
You missed the main point of the article. Airbus- assembled in Wales from EU PARTS. Leo – assembled in Yeovil from EU PARTS B/H- assembled in Poland from USA PARTS Bell- assembled in USA from USA PARTS. Zero UK Industry will be making any parts. 3 are oil rig busses, with carbon panels and lots of glass. Merlin Airframe on the crowsnest kept delaminating when stressed by the baggie, and Leonardo wrecked 3 airframes in the process and were 3 years late. i am all for giving our workers jobs, BUT here we go AJAX assembled in Wales from EU… Read more »
Merlin is Heavy Lift, and this is more in a Medium Range. Merlin is now Built in Italy as Leonardo stripped the production out of yeovil.
That’s false, Aw101 are still heavily in production in yeovil for Norway and Poland aircraft
A no brainer Home made the only choice .
Only if it is close to the best option performance wise. There is no point in buying a British made helicopter if it is useless…
Oh silly boy, of course there is, lots of votes in it. Who cares if it works (in the optomistic scenario of it actually being delivered before it becomes obselete)
I like Leonardo as they are use for heilmed and coastguard. So are know for being stuff machines and easy to get in small places
I guess the favourite would be Leonardo because of Yeovil. I hope not though. Leonardo have gutted the factory at Yeovil inspite of all promises to the contrary when they took over Westland. Politicians need the courage to call their bluff if they threaten to close it down if they don’t get preferential treatment on MoD contracts. My personal preference would be all other things considered the S70 but that would be because of our burgeoning defence relationship with Poland. As to who should win the contract. I hope the helo that best fulfills the criteria at the lowest capital… Read more »
Yep David, bound to be the Yeovil 149, I would put money on it at a staggering unit price, I would bet my house on it. As others have pointed out previously, new technologies are just over the horizon and will probably be fielded in 10 years or so, so why not just buy 50 refubished ex US Army Blackhawks, to use for all the medium helo requirements, including the current leased fleet. You could probably buy the lot, with spares and support for the price of 10 149’s, plus saving the cost of new lease arrangements, billions saved… I… Read more »
Yep on Blackhawk but i’m more optimistic on Leonardo. They’re riding for a fall and have been for a long time. I think this will be when it finally happens.
Great idea but refurbed Blackhawks can’t be bought unless either someone offers them or the MoD puts out a RFQ/modified tender. Both seem unlikely unless Sikorsky sees that it has lost and tries to upend the tender with a low bid perhaps refurbed in Poland. The howls and threats from the other bidders would be considerable.
haven’t Sikorsky already offered refurbs in uk. If we could get 100 refurbs for this price or 50 for half that would surely be a win / win. Especially if we can negotiate a buy back up front for the future lift at a sensible price (ie the same price as the USAF with no uplift) Perhaps then we can get them to take over Yeovil or build a line in the UK. with the money saved we can buy a load of loitering munitions, drones (UK designed and built) and Seibel s100’s for the RN. applying a £500m save… Read more »
My only issue with what you are saying is… ” far too sensible”
The new technologies will be expensive and there is no experience with that so it is contradictory with “staggering cost” concerns.. If we talk about V-280 and the Defiant.
Why that bizarre assumption of staggering price unit?
The civilian sister AW 189 is in service with Bristow Helicopters in HM SAR service including in the Falklands. It is a known quantity if the MOD don’t ask for some gold plated thing.
Because the 149 has a price of $18 to $20 million per copy … That’s before the MOD have pissed about with it and turned it into an all singing, all dancing fragile composite $30 million helicopter that can’t be patched in the field and is rendered U/S by a few AK bullet holes…
Blackhawk, ready now at $ 6 million per copy, tough, upgraded, reliable, with a vast spares network to plug into.
It’s a total no brainer Alex ….
Ridiculous. If you believe that you did not learn to distinguish data.
This do not mean that each UH-60M costs 57.5M$ there are equipment, maybe a training simulator, replacement pieces etc.
Righto Alex, whatever, I see you are a committed to the Italian helicopter, despite people telling you the actual ‘facts’ of of operating with modern composite helicopters in combat environments..
You clearly regard keeping Waistlands operating at any cost as the solution … It’s the same mindset that got us the wonderful Ajax nightmare…
Top of the Range all bells and whistles will set you back $26m lower specs go down to $6m.
$6m for a Blackhawk! Right….
If only they had bought the Westland Black Hawk in the 90s… we’d of had a success on our hands like the sea king.
Absolutely……
Main issue with the 3 OIL RIG Transports. they dont get shot at much, and if you look at the AW it has way to much bolted outside the airframe
That’s not all true, production is still very much happening in yeovil, with a huge site investment over the last few years. Aw101 is still bieng manufactured for Norway and Poland. Yes majority of parts are EU, but all the tooling and gse will be sourced from the UK supply base around the country. Nothing has really changed in yeovil apart from the name. Airbus will have to build the facility in Wales to support anyway. It would be a shame to loose the yeovil site considering the history and support of the mod. Roughly 4000 people are employed there,… Read more »
“Up to”
🙄
Yes I saw that. Would be interesting to hear from any Helicopter enthusiasts how many they think we actually need and why.
Well I just look at the squadrons in the AAC and RAF that need the helicopter and look at their numbers and compare.
44 fills the requirement.
Not 20, not 30. That means cuts.
But an MP in Yeovil will be happy.
I heard rumblings of H135s for a Gazelle replacement under Project Matcha. It was only a flghtglobal article, but have you also heard anything?
Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/uk-selects-h135s-to-replace-british-armys-elderly-gazelle-helicopters/147273.article
Morning mate. I’ve read that same source, nothing more.
what is Gazelle used for these days, surely we need to standardise and move up to Wildcat size or down and make it unmanned.
Really don’t think we should have another tiny class of helicopters.
the other thing to say is there is a British helicopter firm (Hills) selling small commercial helicopters (5 persons) for £1m.
can this be used even though it is single engine…
The HX50 and HC50 helicopters being developed by Hill Helicopters will come in at a lot less than £1M – a max figure of £595K is being quoted in this article https://helihub.com/2022/12/01/hill-helicopters-backlog-close-to-700-plus-pricing-update/
I know they are not mil spec, but can they get 4-5 people from A to B safely, I think they can. can they be used for training, probably. can you stick some martlet on them and an extra fuel tank and targeting pod, again probably. there a lot that can. Be done with these from royal/ministerial flights through to using on the Rivers with RM sometimes I just think we over spec things. 100 of these or 3 wildcat which would you buy if forced into a binary choice, to replace current wildcat (yes I know they are different,… Read more »
Just had another look at this and it’s a helluva package for £1m (built with wheels etc).
we could certainly do worse.
it’s British and in my view we should be investing in this company perhaps with a view to getting a twin engined version for 8 passengers under £5m mark.
Blackhawk for me. I’d like something cheap enough to be purchased in the numbers needed for a role that does not need to be gold plated.
Otherwise I see yet another cut in numbers with 30 bought instead of 44.
Merlin is too heavy for this.
100% agree DM. It’s the smart decision and probably best value. Now let’s watch the MOD do exactly the opposite of this choice.
Logically and i regret to say Black Hawk is the best option, over 4000 made proven ready and upgradeable for what ever our forces require. in different roles. Leonardo stripped Yeovil and fudged the wildcat, and the Crows nest
we dont need Race Horses we Need Shire Horses. non are manufactured in the UK.
So forget the Horseshite and a local MP as the rest of the country are paying to keep 100 people employed.
It will be between the AW 149 and the Blackhawk.. bet on it.
I’m glad there’s going to be a full and proper tender process before the AW149 is selected…
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Absolutely nailed it Chris….
Sounds about right Chris. I can’t see past it although I’ve no idea if its the best for the job.
It is vital that a clear and transparent specification is written and there if full and open competition in trying to match that specification of the AW 149 :-)!
Contract with the final candidate that has already been decided
Well if Yeovil does not get this contract that’s probably the end of the UK helicopter industry and all the small engineer companies in the chain , I find it very sad people support black hawk over the UK helicopter industry , dare I say they live in London area😉
Nope, I think you are wrong. The problem is that we can’t just support an industry for no good reason. If the Government were going to invest big numbers in a UK factory to produce a next generation homegrown helicopter I could fully support it. Otherwise we need to buy the best helicopter we can get our hands on and the Blackhawk is a great platform with proven battlefield performance. Blackhawk is designed as a battlefield helicopter. The other designs on offer are simply commercial platforms that have a bit of armour sellotaped on. If the AW149 proves to be… Read more »
Spot on….
a correct answer
Yep, pretty much.
I believe the army has wanted BH for years.
Do politicians want to give the army what the army wants and needs or what their mates in the MIC want.
I suspect in almost every case the latter and politics decides.
Blackhawk under license ?
The AW149 is a military design with a civilian version, not the other way around like the Airbus and Bell.
Leonardo have also said that they would use Yeovil to fulfil export orders for the type too, which would give the volume production you talk about (or at least an opportunity for it). That’s why it’s my preference. ALthough I’m a bit concerned they’re only talking about assembly now, I thought it was proper fabrication etc….
Issue is the AW149 is a dedicated Military design but is based on its little Brothers bones. so its not a true fighting unit, and composite panels are difficult to repair in field. the sales patter from Yeovil was full production. yet there are no longer any manufacturing capacity at Yeovil. they have swapped to the Airbus option of assembled @ from parts from other sources. if you remove this from the bid AW149 is no better than the Bell/ABus option. so we will have a USA or a French or Italian. i know who has given us better service… Read more »
You’re talking nonsense mate, go to yeovil and see for yourself. They’re currently manufacturing aw101 for Poland and Norway. Aw159 rad line and retrofit lynx. There’s still a lot of production happening, but the worry is if the 149 isn’t the winner, then a few years time the yeovil site will struggle big time. There is a huge amount of industry in the local area that support the place too.
Fully agree!
Now post that same comment when solid support ships tender is launched and see what’s happens.
agree.
Either we want a UK-based military helicopter industry, which includes design, build and foreign sales, or we wave goodbye to the current albatross: a rump that only holds us back. The former will require a level of commitment far beyond replacing 44 medium-weight helicopters and I doubt the MoD has the money or the stomach for it.
Instead, give Yeovil Proteus to play with, the Navy’s requirement for a medium rotary drone. See if they can skunkworks a cheap offering.
It might end the manned rotary aircraft industry, but the unmanned rotary aircraft industry – aka drones – is booming right now. Besides this is probably the last generation of helicopters anyway, tilt-rotors will undoubtedly replace them in future due to the inherent limitations on helicopters.
Bottom line is can Yeovil build cost effective, combat effective helicopters. If they can great. If they can’t then one more helicopter contract is unlikely to change that and even if it does put off the demise for a short period but 44 helicopters is not likely to change that. The british defence industry has taken vast amounts of money whilst producing small numbers of often flawed kit, late for decades. I dare say those people calling for what Yeovil produces to be selected nomatter what will not have to rely on it whilst being shot at.
Have Yeovil ever built a bad aircraft post war?
Wildcat is poor, Crows nest was 3 years late and is still flawed and they only upgraded systems from the Sea King Baggies. so Yes
Leonardo assist stripped Yeovil, all the parts for the AW Will be crated in from Italy and China.
Wildcat was a cock up, Crows nest was a cock up and 3 years late.
support our industry.
we don’t have one. all the profit heads to Italy.
And may I ask whats your expertise ?
How is the wildcat poor? Its very well regarded. Crowsnest was a Lockheed Martin design which was well over engineered, not purely the fault of yeovil.
Yes I wondering the same thing wildcat or Lynx is the fastest helicopter in the world and as you said well regarded , thats why I asked Johan what his expertise are on the wildcat.
I still think it a shame, that Wildcat did not get the foot longer cabin of the Lynx 3/Westland 606 prototypes.
perhaps this is an opportunity for Yeovil to move into unmanned aerial vehicles. Post Ukraine if we don’t Turkey will clean up on international orders. If we can start building drones and rotary drones at Yeovil perhaps that is a brighter future for those involved. Can we get a version of Taranis out there sub £5m? Can we build a version of the TB2 sub £2m? Can we build a scheibel S100 rotor UAV competitively? whether we like it or not Helicopters are probably not something the UK should build as we don’t have the mass to support. this may… Read more »
As we have now left the EU and this is a military contract cant we just select the Airbus option as assembled in UK.
Also 44 aircraft for £1 billion doesnt sound like great value for money. 44 is a low number for such a vast budget.
Budget is actually £1.2 Billion for it and that works out at £27 Mil + per frame but of course that includes training, support equipment etc etc which will take a big chunk of that. The Army really only needs a 4 tonner in the sky not a Sports car. Needs to be durable and cheap to operate. But then those that make the decisions don’t really know whats truly needed. The Seaking could have been going on for years yet and did what the Boots needed and better than others by far.
Does anyone know how many helicopters the 44 new ones will be replacing? Is it one for one?
44 Required…
Replacing 30ish Puma, 5 Bell 212s..
With speculation of the other 2 being the Bell 412 and the SF Dauphin…
So we will be getting more helicopters than what is currently in service…?
That will be nice…
Would it not make sense to lease some Blackhawks and jump onto the USA next-generation helicopter program a few years after they have come into service and bugs have been sorted? If so might there be some workshare opportunities?
Spot on 👍🏻 though we may not need to lease any Blackhawks depending upon when the U.K. plans to replace existing helicopter and how fast the next generation comes into service in the USA… – I think they are due to choose between Valor or Defiant this year as the Black Hawk replacement.
Decision expected in September.
UK has signed onto the future helicopter program, this is just outside that window. but would like up with the Merlin OOS date on 2030.
Blackhawk makes sense. A mature platform with just about zero risk I’d say.
But they’ll select something made in the UK.
I think its safe to say the UK lost its helicopter industry when Agusta came on the scene.
Blackhawk is certainly mature. Its heritage dates from 1972.
Leonardo, Yeovil could surely make any helicopter, including Blackhawk, under licence.
AW are building the final Merlin orders and are expected to finish in the summer of 2023, just when the order for the new medium lift helicopter is expected to be placed. I’m not a betting man but I’d say AW149 is a shoe in.
Shoe in as in foot in the door…
It would be great if that order was the followed up with an order for 70 enhanced Merlins for the Navy, giving Yeovil work until the end of the decade. Unfortunately jobs in the south don’t seem to be as important as job Jobs in the North or Scotland.
Only issue Merlins are now assembled in Italy, Not Yeovil. some fit out work done at Yeovil
Fair point. They may have to reverse that a bit to get the contract.
Really…uk make all 101s, Norway , Italy CSAR and Poland to name a few.
We also R&O all 101s as well that was part of the work share.
Here in Australia we’ve finally given up on the 47 MRH90 fleet (Euro NH90) and replacing them with 40 MH-60M for Army and 13 additional MH-60R for Navy (adds to the 23 Romeo currently in service with the RAN).
Maybe we can sell them off to you Poms? Maybe we can add the 22 Euro Tiger ARH (being replaced with 29 AH-64E) to sweeten the deal? Hey?
Cheers,
(PS, only joking about MRH90 and Tiger, both have been nothing but trouble!)
Can you donate a half dozen to us in NZ please John?
Seriously though, I’m keen to understand what went wrong with NH 90. Might this be similar reason to the Tiger helo- i.e. doesn’t like hot and high, dry and dusty operating conditions?
P.S. enjoy the elections this weekend!
I would like to shill very hard for the Blackhawk, for no other reason than it looks cool. As we are all aware, aesthetics are of paramount importance
Fitted for but not with…a mandatory statement in any list of MOD requirements…
Vital to ensure that this program builds and protects UK indigenous design and build of helicopters.
Not sure about that. A cheaper and more effective interim solution would be to buy and restore existing Blackhawks out of American inventories. Leonardo do not offer value for money and have wound doing UK operations despite promising not to
I expect you are right about the cash cost advantage of choosing Blackhawks. However I do believe that we need to rebuild and protect our domestic capabilities. We should not allow the Ajax and Wildcat mismanagements to discourage us. The missile programmes seem to be good, the QE carrier programme was good, the current ship builds seem to be going well (fingers crossed), RADAR2 is imminent. Lets hope Tempest delivers. This programme is a great opportunity to create Helicopter design and build capability and if Leonardo’s performance at Yeovil has been unsatisfactory as you say, the opportunity now is to… Read more »
USAF choose AW 139(smaller than AW 149) over Blackhawk and a Bell proposal for their Nuke silos missiles.
So why USAF did not choose “cheaper” “restored” Blackhawks?
Given the corruption of US politics and the political nature of procurement, likely because of jobs and (more likely) bribes and insider trading
The USAF chose the AW 139 because they would be built by Boeing in the US and, oh yes, Boeing bid $1.6 billion lower than the other contenders, restored Blackhawks. It’s called under-bidding, for which Boeing is notorious.
They also bought the intellectual rights to the a/c and changed the name to grey wolf so the patriotic population didn’t realise they were buying foreign.
Honestly the indigenous helicopter design things went ages ago.
I do have to wonder if it is worth being in that game when the drone game is going to take over most of that space very soon.
Or is the maned helicopter going to do something else?
Do you think it will be as binary as that i.e. drones completely replace manned helicopters? I don’t know. I expect there will be rotary drones; I presume expertise gained in manned rotary would transfer to unmanned rotary
Perhaps a drone can do recce as well as a helo but can it carry a dozen or more fully equipped troops and several tonnes of payload?
Blackhawk. Proven design, latest model, on budget, on time, sufficient numbers, fits the requirements and liked by the aircrews. No local MP to screw things up. What’s not to like?
Blackhawk is the oldest aircraft on offer first entering service in 1979 with the current version being a re-engine in the early 2000’s. H175 entered service 2014 is the newest design and shows the aviation technology development during that period, is better in nearly every performance metric despite being a less than half the weight. Bell 525 has the speed of the H175 but is firmly on the super-heavy side, its still in development after a 2016 incident when a prototype disassembled itself midair killing the crew. Blackhawk and Bell 525 due to their weight wouldn’t be able to land… Read more »
Of the four, the Bell 525 is the most advanced. It is the only one that has a fully digital fly by wire flight control system. All the others are traditional mechanically linked flight controls with hydraulic servo assistance. The Bell’s flight control software was part of the cause in to why it decided to chop its tail off. I can’t think of any Royal Navy ship with a flight deck/helipad that cannot take the max weight of a Blackhawk/Bell 525. None of the four contenders offer a step change in capability over the Puma. The Blackhawk is the only… Read more »
You mean in the accident?
Yep. The NTSB report said that the aircraft developed an uncontrolled vertical bounce that operating in one engine mode exacerbated. The blades were scissoring, which means leading and lagging about the vertical hinge. The main rotor rpm had dropped and the pilots tried to lower the collective to speed up the rpm. But the vertical bounce was causing the pilots to move the collective slightly up and down. As the rotor rpm dropped the centrifugal force keeping the blades level dropped off allowing the blade to flap up and down. The red blade on its rotation flapped low and struck… Read more »
AW 149 was build from start as a military helicopter so not like AW 139.
Its a derivative of the AW139 design, they modified the existing rather than a clean sheet design. Its not like the AW 139 cant be used in that role, in the US Boeing license builds the AW139 as the MH-139A and it is used to protect nuclear weapon silos, protect nuclear weapons in transit and for flying military VIP’s replacing the Huey in the role.
The H175 is a Chinese helicopter offered by a Franco-German company. We should avoid it like the plague.
I can see the reasons for choosing the AW149 (not least the Italians are our partners for Tempest) and for choosing the Blackhawk (because it’s a fantastically designed helicopter, survivable and efficient). Hopefully we have a fair competition and get the best option when all is considered.
Now what is interesting is that at first Leonardo was offering to move the whole international production line for the AW149 to the U.K. HMG so go hardball on that and insist that if it’s a run the U.K. becomes the primary export production line.
If true then that enforces my argument.
There is huge export potential on the 149, which ever country has the production line has profit making secure sovereignty capability around rotors for years to come.
obsession with individual unit cost or in year cost control is what’s crippled this country, you have to look at the long game of TAX revenues and industrial tec base capability that’s what separates the geopolitical entities that succeed and those that fail.
Going by your incorrect subtle divide post in the past, you would say that lol.
Thats not my point ,you are pretty suspect on this chat dare I say Ivan, or just you do not have a clue??
Isn’t this the wrong time to pitch? I thought the US is in the final stages of its FLRAA selection? Doesn’t that mean the MOD will be purchasing the “old” option and not the platform of the future?
I admit, I don’t know enough on the subject, however, if it’s going to be an old platform, wouldn’t the Blackhawk as a second hand or leased be the preference in the short-term until the next gen of helicopters are around? Otherwise, these 40’odd helicopters will be around for a while and others will be flying around with the next gen tech?
Next gen is not just around the corner, You will need much testing and make it reliable.
You can buy a small numbers for special forces and then train to check the implications, but you don’t bet the whole house.
UK did not bought the V-22 for a reason, it is too expensive.
IB you are right, seems wholly illogical to be purchasing “legacy” rotorcraft at this time, when in reality the future is V-280 et al.
Unfortunately time is against us here, Puma OSD is next year I think, and it is unlikely it can be extended without great cost. We should not have upgraded Puma in 2008(??), but replaced it then, so as to align better with the joint US offerings if that was the way we wanted to go?
Our hands are now tied, we need this in service in the next few years, 2030 is too far away.
Guns were also legacy until they weren’t(look at Type 31) and Royal Navy invested in Seacat that did not worked…how that turned out?
Not sure that I see the connection, any logical analysis would confirm that helicopters are inefficient for 75% of their flight time, so not sure how a solution to this is not where we should be aiming.
This is the specs for the US FLRAA program of Defiant and V-280 (from wiki)
According to the RFI, the Army has set a per-unit cost goal of $43 million (in 2018 dollars).
Maximum personnel: 2 pilots 2 crew, 8 troops
On April 4, 2019, the Army released a formal request for information and outlined its proposed schedule for FLRAA:[1]
Slightly different timescales and performance requirements. The US envisages them entering service in 2030 or later and theres two contenders, the Sikorsky-Boeing Defiant and the Bell V-280. Bell V-280 is fast but 20-30 tonnes and very large while only carrying 16 stretchers compared to the 18-20 of the contenders in the UK selection. It would be unable to land on any ship other than a carrier. Defiant not really seen performance figures, it will be fast and maneuverable but quite heavy for its compact size, it also looks like it will be on the lower end of cargo volume, maybe… Read more »
V-280 is 14000kg the prototype, it usually grows. I like more the Defiant configuration.
V-280 is massive and expensive. If the program expects 43M$ for each expect real price to be even higher. This have everything to be another V-22.
You mean like a belated success? V-22 is 1st gen, V-280 is second gen and at scale will be cheaper, faster, more survivable and efficient.
15.4 tons I believe quite a difference!
I think we should be cautious about the FVL programme. The Tilt Rotor design has a number of disadvantages, the main two being complexity and high rotor disk loading (due to the prop rotors being smaller then a traditional Rotor). A smaller rotor requires far more power to lift a given weight: it’s why the Bell V280 has a lower take off weight then a Merlin but twice the power. It also means they are less effective in the hover and poor at autorotation (and therefore less safe). More power and more complexity mean more cost. The US are investing… Read more »
I genuinely like the AW149 for this; I know that people are joking it’s a foregone conclusion, but as long as they can get the right price I don’t have a problem. It is a military design with a civilian version, not the other way around like the Airbus and Bell. Leonardo have also said that they would use Yeovil to fulfil export orders for the type too, which would give the volume production you talk about (or at least an opportunity for it). That’s why it’s my preference. Although I’m a bit concerned they’re only talking about assembly now,… Read more »
Completely agree, it’s a very good military rotor that would enhance our capability to base and generate Tax revenue, instead of seeing that go to another country, pissing our nations wealth away to another nation when we can build our own very good rotors is a fools game and as short sighted as you like, global Britain has to first start at home. If we will not support our own industrial development no one else will. Do think a lot of the dislike comes from a miss understanding between the design relationship of the 139 and 149. The 139 is… Read more »
The 149 also has the advantage that all it’s avionics are all Leonardos so all updates, mods etc are all in-house.
Large percentage of this a/c will British built, although the first few will be built in Italy. Speaking to test pilots they rate this craft far more than Blackhawk.
As unpopular a pill as it is to swallow, the best option is Blackhawk. That’s what it should be, and it’s what the army want, which is what should count because they are the main ‘end user’ It’s also proven, clearly upgradable, probably cheaper, can and has been adapted well to suit SF needs, and a whole plethora of other things. Obviously there is the, not built in Britain argument, which is a very important and relevant one, and to be honest the other aircraft would probably suit the RAF more and are a clearly a bit more finessed, but… Read more »
Bravo.
Blackhawk It is.
It’s just the best option now mate, and as bold a shout it would be to pick Blackhawk over the others, in this case I truly believe it would be the right one👍
actually is the Blackhawk the better option, the 149 is without any doubt a newer airframe has better lift and range and is a little more crash resistant ( I’ve had this argument with other and they have miss understood the design and used the 139 specs). The big difference is affordability..contrary poplar believe buying abroad is actually just pissing away your money, capability and future ability to defend yourself. Wars and especially geopolitical conflicts are alway one by the nation with the great ability to grow it’s capability, buying other is wearing your capability. Just the finances side: 1… Read more »
Well said
Of course all very good and relevant points, and genuinely I am massively pro British made and all that goes with that, but the people who will be using the ‘future medium lift’ helo are pretty unanimous in they’re praise and envy of what can be achieved by the Blackhawk. Not only that, it’s ready now in all respects, not months, years, right now with a lot of features that the UK military need and want in equal measure. I don’t know if the other helos can be refuelled mid air? But I do know that Blackhawk can and is… Read more »
Hi Richard, the 149 is a genuinely military rotor ( it’s a ground up millitary build not a civilian rotor painted green, that’s the 139 people tend to confuse them as they look similar) and is in almost always out performs the Blackhawk. It’s also an in production rotor so there will be no spaving away development costs ( it’s already being made ). In the end what you many want now and the long term security needs of your nation are two completely different things and one if far more important than the other. In reality lots of people… Read more »
Thank you Jonathon, that’s very interesting, and if this was/is a platform that will be intentionally long serving then I agree. But as far as I understand they are, for want of a much better word, a kind of necessary stop gap, an improvement of what we have that will be purchased in the knowledge that there will be a newer concept a few year down the line. I fear if we went with the leonardo or airbus offers, we will be less likely to replace them at the right time because they will be so new. We don’t want… Read more »
As said previously the 149 came first and the civil 189 came after and was much more a success sales wise.
I have to ask, somewhat tongue in cheek, if you would also insist that the NHS also buy everything from UK manufacturers? From bed pans to machines that go ping. I ask it somewhat seriously because it seems that the MoD is always the one that is expected to fund the UK jobs programs and inward investment, but why shouldn’t this apply to every other Govt. department too? Particularly given the tax returns argument. The answer, probably, is that many items would cost far more and in the case of the NHS it would likely result in more underfunded services,… Read more »
Actually GHF I actually would, it would be far better that the NHS purchase U.K. products. A lot actually is, but unfortunately a lot of the high tec diagnostic equipment is only manufactured abroad. But actually covid was a classic example of why you keep sovereign ability….vaccinations for covid became very much a case of those who manufacture got far more than those who did not. The biggest saving the NHS makes is where there is U.K. manufacturing, so U.K. purchased drugs are far cheaper for the NHS that drugs that are procured from the international market. The U.K. pharm… Read more »
I probably didn’t make the point very well. If we already have industries producing what is needed then they should be favoured, ideally with a level of offset reflecting the tax benefits to the country of doing so, as you describe. Although, there is nothing to prevent foreign competitors from essentially subsidizing their industries, using the same rationale. The problem with a number of our defence programs is that there is no domestic competitive capability, so we are attempting to create/re-create/maintain industries using a limited MoD purchase. That would be like the NHS financing industry to produce medical electronic equipment… Read more »
This truly is a head or hearts decision. Head would be the Blackhawk. It will be the cheapest option by far, as any order can be a direct purchase from the US Army on the back of an existing order. In exactly the same way as the new CH47F Block 2 Chinook, that the RAF has purchased. It is a combat proven airframe and was designed to take small arms damage. With protected critical systems like the flight controls, main rotor gearbox, engines, tail rotor flight control and drive shaft, plus the tail rotor gearbox. It has crashworthy undercarriage along… Read more »
“The initial requirement was for an interim aircraft that would be in service for about 15 to 20 years.” This is an important point that is usually glossed over. Rhetorical question: If this medium helicopter requirement continues to be an interim, then what will the market be like for selling these aircraft on at the end, i.e. mid-2040’s? Answer: Blackhawk is almost guaranteed to be the most desirable platform in a world market, where the Blackhawk fleet will be around for many decades to come. So full operating costs for the program are an important factor too, including residual value… Read more »
We were so lucky not to get involved with the NH90. On paper it looks a useful aircraft. With two sliding doors and a rear ramp, decent speed and range, along with built in armour protection for vital systems. It would have been the ideal candidate to replace Puma, so what went wrong? The aircraft has been plagued with production problems ranging from poor build quality control, to a floor and ramp that couldn’t stand up to soldiers boots walking it. There have been numerous incidents of the RTM engine suffering damage, from compressor blades touching the casing. But one… Read more »
NH90 really is a head scratcher and yes a bullet dodged. That the two companies who dominate WW commercial helicopter sales managed to produce such a problematic helicopter is bemusing. Perhaps it was too many cooks in the kitchen and too much workshare at too many companies. Mind you from a commercial/financial perspective, Airbus and Leonardo are far better off dominating WW commercial and para military markets and leaving high end military vertical lift to the US. As far as new solutions, Airbus is working on Racer, the follow on the X3, while Leonardo is working on NextGen Civil Tiltrotor… Read more »
Unfortunately, Leonardo are only allowed to use tilt-rotor technology for civilian or para-military aircraft. Bell has the sole rights for military tilt rotor aircraft. They need to pursue a different route if they are to stay in the military market.
Airbus I am hoping will use the Racer project as the foundation of a new series of aircraft, including military ones.
Understood regarding Bell, that was the meaning of my last comment regarding Bell providing the licensing if they lose the FLRAA competition.
Seems Racer is part of the Airbus consideration
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/airbus-helicopters-warns-on-weight-increase-for-natos-next-generation-rotorcraft/148718.article
BTW I should have added that I agree on all points.
An excellent assessment Davey….
As I mentioned in a previous post, a friend of mine remembers well, hard used Blackhawks picking him up on occasion, patched like a patchwork quilt!
Tough as old boots…
The repair depot’s must have been so busy re-skinning back in the States during the desert wars…
What’s needed is a reliable battle taxi, not an overly complex composite and fragile helicopter.
Did Westlands really build Blackhawks before? Why not do it again?
Yes, they made two. These were prototypes that were going to be used as the basis for the RAF’s medium helicopter replacement. Puma and Wessex. It led to the Westlands Scandal.
See link below:
Whatever happened to the Westland WS-70 Blackhawk? | Hush-Kit (hushkit.net)
It had at that time the higher power RTM322 engines plus some other mods. Westlands were going to final assemble the aircraft from kits sent across by Sikorsky.
The Relentless surely has no chance considering it’s troubled development and loss of launch customer. Now that is a flying Ajax in the making.
I don’t understand why domestic production/tech transfer etc are not criteria for the bid every other country insists on this. Apart from shipbuilding which appears to be untouchable politically the majority of uk defence manufacturering is getting screwed. I’m 100% for competition but this is tax payers money so let’s see some inward investment or offsets in return.
I know I will be shouted at, but we really need 2 sizes to do this efficiently. Say 30 AW149 for RAF & 14 AW139 for AAC. Tin hat on now.
actually John I support your idea. If not the AW139 for the ACC, then the AW169 maybe a more cost effective choice.
Aw149 was originally designed as a military unit but everyone only recognises the more successful commercial AW189.
The yanks only ever consider buying American made units and rarely buy foreign, we should do the same. I work at Leonardo Yeovil and talk of buying Black hawk or whoever I find downright embarrassing.
It’s going to be American whatever it is.
Going to be the Blackhawk. Proven platform with full backup and support. May be an old design but like the Chinook, it works, many mods available, proven in multi roles.
Blackhawk. Very old design. First version designed in early 70s.
Is it really the best? – it can only carry 11 soldier pasengers – not very impressive.
newer than Ch-47, F-16 & F-15 – all still leaders in their field 😉
Forget protecting UK jobs? Tell that to the politicians who make the big procurement decisions.
Dare I reiterate my point that politicians who really make procurement decisions, will fight tooth and nail to protect jobs in Yeovil. It is certainly true that making foreign-designed helos (including adapting the design and building in British content) in the UK costs more. It may account for why we bought only 67 AH-64Ds instead of the required 91 or 97 (recollections vary).
Blackhawk is a proven design but it carries only 11 soldier passengers compared to Puma’s (a helo of similar vintage) 16. It stems from an early 1970s design. Is it the best medium helicopter we could get?
Asking for a friend when the winning bid is revealed and uncovered can they play the Airwolf theme tune please.
Awesome idea.
Better not annoy DM by playing “Blackhawk Down”.
😆 I’ll take Airwolf, I can hear the theme tune now. Loved it.
The Puma was past it long time back and should have been replaced with Blackhawks when Westlands had the chance to make them some time ago. Like so many needs the UK has to go abroad to shop as can no longer provide what the Services actually need. Poor leadership and greed killed off the the once World leading industries of GB.
Blackhawk was designed earlier than Puma – Blackhawk’s origins are early 70s.
Puma carries more troops (Qty 16) than Blackhawk (Qty11)
Black Hawk can carry 20 ‘Light’ troops, 14 high density and 11 fully-loaded complete with a 6-litter medevac option – plus all the other usual ‘approved’ role equipment the others can only dream of at this stage 😉
Just have to ask yourself this suitable question,
We Buy Chinook because its the best in Class.
We Buy Apache because its the best in Class.
So why not select the best in class of Mid sized proven system with over 4000 made.
or a Assembled in the west Country by a munch kin a system that is unproven and untried. and will be late over priced and difficult to repair.
Three excellent contenders; what could possibly go wrong?
It’s difficult to argue against Blackhawk if it does the job at 1/3 the price of AW149. Is this machine going to be purely a ‘utility’ helicopter? What’s the likelyhood we will want to fit UK specific weapons and systems to different versions; and how easy would this be for each of the proposed alternatives?
How much of a military ‘medium’ helicopter is a commodity and how much is a circus act – where we need to be in sovereign control of strategic skills and technologies?
Team Pellonia self-protection kit is a UK Sovereign asset – and is available/agnostic supplier to MOD choice
Classic fodder for another NAO report?
Any significance in this…?
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/leonardo-helicopters-rocked-by-sudden-departure-of-uk-chief-as-nmh-campaign-kicks-off/148796.article
I blame the Antares issue 2, page 148 article 😉
https://indd.adobe.com/view/4d51bf34-4fba-4e97-9ca1-70c6fbe350c1
Whatever happened to the Westland WS-70 Blackhawk?Think we tried once before in the 80.