It has been suggested that a US Virginia-class submarine departed Faslane to cover the patrol handover of a British Vanguard-class ballistic missile submarine. However, this claim has not been confirmed and warrants a degree of scepticism.
The American submarine’s sailing coincides with the movements of Trident-carrying submarines heading out on patrol and returning, with a defence source suggesting that these movements are related. However, due to the sensible policy of not commenting on submarine movements, the veracity of these claims cannot be officially confirmed.
Notably, other defence sources I’ve spoken to remain sceptical about the connection, raising doubts about the accuracy of the initial report. Nonetheless, it’s worth considering why a British submarine might not have been available, should this claim hold any truth.
The ‘handover’ is a critical aspect of the UK’s Continuous At Sea Deterrent (CASD) strategy, which has been maintained for over 50 years. This strategy ensures that at least one Vanguard-class SSBN is always at sea, armed with Trident nuclear missiles, providing a constant and credible nuclear deterrent. The handover involves a meticulously coordinated process where one SSBN returns to port as another departs, ensuring no gap in the UK’s deterrent capability.
This seamless transition is vital for maintaining an uninterrupted nuclear-armed presence at sea, central to the UK’s defence posture and commitment to deterring potential nuclear threats. By having an SSBN constantly on patrol, the UK ensures that its nuclear deterrent remains operational and ready to respond to emerging threats, reinforcing national security and contributing to global stability.
Operationally, the SSBN fleet sometimes relies on SSNs to ensure they are not being tracked by foreign submarines when deploying, an operation known in the submarine service as ‘delousing.’ While some interpret this as a sign of the enduring ‘special relationship’ between the UK and the US, others view it as indicative of the Royal Navy’s current operational challenges.
But why might no British submarine have been available, even if this claim holds any truth?
The reported absence of a British SSN to delouse ahead of the Vanguard-class submarine has sparked concern, particularly given that it has been 47 days since a Royal Navy SSN was last deployed. The last operational SSN, HMS Triumph, has been stationed at Devonport since 3rd July, following its most recent operations. Even more troubling is that it has been 121 days since an Astute-class submarine, the most advanced in the fleet, was last at sea.
This prolonged inactivity stems largely from extensive maintenance backlogs and infrastructure challenges. Several of the Royal Navy’s submarines, including HMS Audacious, HMS Ambush, and HMS Artful, have been out of commission for extended periods due to necessary refits. This situation has significantly impacted the fleet’s operational readiness, limiting the Royal Navy’s ability to independently carry out critical tasks such as escorting SSBNs out for deterrent patrols, as is speculated in this instance.
Project Euston
An article by Jerome Starkey, Defence Editor at The Sun, sheds further light on this situation. Starkey reports that all six of the UK’s hunter-killer submarines are currently stuck in port, mainly due to maintenance delays and a lack of available dry docks.
In response, the Ministry of Defence has launched Project Euston, a strategic initiative aimed at enhancing submarine maintenance infrastructure at Faslane, the primary base for the UK’s nuclear deterrent and the home of the Vanguard-class SSBNs.
Project Euston involves constructing two new floating dry docks, which are crucial for increasing the base’s capacity to conduct out-of-water engineering work on submarines.
The need for these new docks is driven by the current limitations of the Royal Navy’s maintenance facilities, which have struggled to meet the fleet’s demands. By providing additional docking capacity, Project Euston aims to reduce the maintenance bottlenecks that have kept several submarines out of action for extended periods. This will be critical in ensuring that the UK can increase the availability of conventionally armed submarines.
The Royal Navy previously told Starkey that it was making a “significant investment” in infrastructure at bases, adding, “Rest assured, British waters are always fully protected with assets including warships, patrol aircraft, and subs.”
Practical Reality
The rumoured but unconfirmed reliance on a US attack submarine to assist with the deployment of a British Trident-carrying submarine is a stark reminder of the current pressures on the Royal Navy’s operational capabilities.
Reactions to the sighting of the US submarine have been mixed. Some express concern and frustration over the Royal Navy’s apparent inability to independently fulfil such a critical role. Others, however, see the US support as a pragmatic response to a temporary shortfall, highlighting the strength of the UK-US alliance.
An anonymous source close to the situation shared their perspective, stating, “That an American submarine stepped in isn’t a huge deal in itself—they’re in and out of Faslane often—but it does shine a light on some bigger issues.”
“Having a US submarine involved isn’t a major problem. But it does raise some eyebrows about the challenges the Royal Navy is facing, especially when it comes to having enough submarines ready for duty.”
The source added, “The UK’s Continuous At Sea Deterrent is still solid, but having to rely on allied support for such a key operation shows that there are things that need sorting out. The Ministry of Defence’s efforts to improve submarine maintenance, like with Project Euston, are a big step in the right direction. Getting this sorted will help ensure the UK can keep things running smoothly without needing to call in favours from our friends across the pond.”
The Ministry of Defence has emphasised that significant investments are being made to enhance infrastructure at Faslane, which should help to alleviate these issues in the future.
While there are positive signs, such as improvements in the surface fleet, it’s prudent to remain cautious about predicting future outcomes.
As we reported previously, things do seem to be on the right track, the surface fleet is doing better too, but I’m not one for predicting the future.
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Excellent.
thank heavens for good allies.
If there is a better way to demonstrate to any potential adverstary the complete incompetence of the MoD and their political masters over the past 14 years, I am unaware of it.
No wonder Starmer and Reeves are shocked at the state of the national finances. Now we know where the £20b black hole is
MOD issues are a lot more extensive than 14 years. Every Govt has issues with MOD spending and organisation.
The “Black Hole” is a fallacy.
It’s an excuse for some good old fashioned class war and to increase taxation on those that do and to pass the money onto those that don’t do.
Dont send 11bil abroad for “Climate”
Dont give massive unaffordable pay rises
Suddenly the black hole is a few billion and thats do able with some modest taxation increases without the class war.
good commentary GB.
Immaculate response – if you ignore the facts.
“Don’t send 11bil abroad for “Climate” “- my favourite topic!
“MOD issues are a lot more extensive than 14 years” – a spot on observation
And Tents not Hotels ,if its good enough for homeless Veterans then tents are good enough for illegals there thats another billon saved
Or just regular old inflatable dinghies to send them back where they came from
Armbands would save a bit more cash the SBS can have the inflatables
Give em some fucking logs and some string.
They aren’t in “hotels” they are in buildings (which used to be hotels) leased by the government as little more than cheap detention centres because the last government basically stopped trying to process any asylum claims.
This post started over the supposed 20bn black hole and where monies could be saved I just put the plight of Veterans that are homeless
Disgraceful situation, but some people try to use it to promote their agenda on immigration.
I’m a Veteran we have a Veterans run cafe in our little seaside Town which also runs as a charity for any veteran that’s seeks help be it Health accomadation education its a charity not a drain on the taxpayer , whereas accomadating more I Is than there is in the Armed forces should be a wake up call .
Bollocks
Shift the accommodation to the Falklands. Expensive to start. Cheaper as time goes by. Only Arginines want to go there (till they get there). France or Falklands?
The only problem is that the Penguin population will disappear .And I don’t mean Swim away
Except the ones which are in hotels, numerous hotels in the North East are currently doing relatively good business housing people which are not from the UK on the governments expense.
I wonder why its never published how much is exactly being spent on housing the people who are currently in the country technically illegally? It would be an interesting and no doubt alarming sum of public money.
It would be another ship or two my friend.
The british homeless are on the street and my special needs brother gets fuck all…
Correct me if I’m wrong but would I be off the mark to assume the boats are working to ‘peacetime’ restrictions and IF they were needed PDQ for ‘wartime’ operations certain restrictions would/could be lifted?
There is an inherent choice.
This is down to duty holder not being willing to take short cuts post Haddon Cave.
Run to peacetime safety standard or cut corners have an accident and the whole fleet ends up on the wall while there is an enquiry?
I’d rather run safe at this point in time and focus on fixing the maintenance issues properly so everyone can sleep at night.
Yes I get that mate I asked IF the brown stuff hits the fan could they sortie👍
I remember being told that I would be surprised how many boats could get to sea in an emergency by an ex-submariner who’d worked on such exercises. Obviously he didn’t tell me but normal peace time restrictions fo by the board.
Pretty much what I thought,I know it’s not on the same scale but when we had crash outs in Germany (active edge) every thing went out😀
That takes me back! I did 4 postings in Germany.
The brown stuff goes in hotels we already told you.
BOOOOOOM
Well said.
I would tend to agree.
Reeves has worked hard to create a black hole of funding. Also some utterly baffling cancellations of capital investment programs.
As you say the lack of capital investment going back to the 90’s is really starting to hurt RN coupled with some very stingy pay settlements that have eroded crewing and staffing to terrifyingly low levels.
All true.
IFS video last night rather disputes that Gunbuster and the thinpinstrippedline (fmr RNR Officer) details why overseas aid is actually a good buy for the UK.
And to calls of it’s the Guardian, they also run the IFS story and detail the woes of the HO – guess where I work… story is real.
GB, excellent comments, you missed out housing an extra 40,000 migrants each year; and that will only get worse under the current regime.
‘Regime’ ? They were elected under a system that gave us fourteen years of Tory incompetence. Still, let’s all blame the immigrants ! Forty thousand a year in a population of 65 million is a drop in the veritable ocean. Fear & division was all the Tories had left.
Hi HF, you took my point exactly, I’d never blame anyone for wanting to better themselves, if anyone wants to come to this country and work and pay their taxes I have no problem. You are quite right it was the gross incompetence of the last government to have any control over our borders whatsoever, and there is no political will of any colour to see that change.
Just out of curiosity what exactly would you have done to solve the issue within the legal framework of what the government, previous and current is able to do?
G’morning, James. I freely admit I don’t have the answers, and there is no political will to solve the problem either, because the politicians know under the current law there is no solution. Consider how much it would cost to deport one individual under the ECHR rules for example.
I have an Afghan doctor friend, Hammy, who helped as an interpreter and would love to work in Britain, but can’t get a visa because twenty years ago in uni, he was in a proscribed Muslim organisation. He admits he was young and foolish; he thought it would help his country. But now he’s grown up and an adult and knows he was stupid. Yet on a nice sunny day four hundred Afghans et al. can climb into boats on the French coast, throw all their identifying material overboard, are given free lives in Britain – how many of those were, or still are members of proscribed organisations?
Were you aware that a recent BBC F.O.I. answer states that 1.2 million people receiving unemployment benefit in Britain are recent arrivals and of non-British nationality? That cannot be fair or right on the British tax payer. One in every eight people in British jails, are of non-British status and cannot be moved back to their own country, and that too cannot be fair or right. Illegal migration is costing the country £5.5 Billion per year (BBC Report into migration costs). The worrying part is where this leads us in the end because we do NOT want to see more of what happened a few weeks ago, but it could get much worse than that if it’s not sorted out and that will require a political earthquake.
GB for President!
Quick! Blame the poor again! That always works 👌👌👌
As always. Oh, and immigrants, not Government incompetence, greed and corruption
You forgot about them lazy lazy overworked teachers.
Mustn’t ever look at the actual problem.
Even better when you call the destitute “scroungers”, but pensioners “deserving”.
Indeed.
the ‘40000’ extra asylum seekers that some are worried about 0.062% of the UK population. Swamped we are, swamped.
How many personel are there in the Armed forces too how many Asylum seekers/ illegal imagrants since 2020 and what is the ratio of Male to female in the influx ? Just being pessimistic.
Also the fuss about winter fuel payments, the Tories had already stopped them for people (like me) retiring from this September onwards.
I got it last year. Fortunately I didn’t need it. I’d rather it was better targetted, through Pension Credit than get it.
Red Cross report on asylum seekers, and a comparison with other European countries. Gives the lie to the idea that they all want to come here and those nasty Europeans let them. https://www.redcross.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/how-we-support-refugees/find-out-about-refugees#:~:text=Our%20work%20with%20refugees%20and%20asylum%20seekers&text=We%20help%20in%20many%20ways,seekers%20during%20their%20asylum%20application.
‘good old fashioned class war’ – what a load of cobblers. Rank incompetence and carelessness over fourteen years has seen every public service from Justice, Policing, Health, Defence and national infrastructure falling to pieces while the Tories,having caused the mess in the first place, have loaded raised the tax burden to the highest in 70 plus years. The freezing of tax thresholds has dragged previous non-taxpayers into income tax, and nearly 40% of people on Universal credit are workers. The biggest fall in living standards for 200 years and a decline in life expectancy. Meanwhile the rich have got even richer:- https://www.statista.com/chart/27505/uks-richest-are-getting-richer/#:~:text=the%20wealth%20gap&text=Their%20data%20finds%20that%20the,steep%2C%20incline%20in%20their%20wealth. There was only one party waging class war and they’re now out of office, thank the Lord !
I am sorry but if you think politicians are in charge of this country or any country for that matter then I have a ice bridge in Crete to sell you politicians are just servants to the powers that be that have ruled this planet for a very long time to be fair to them if they don’t follow the agenda they get replaced or in some cases like the mp who criticised the lockdowns during Covid murdered and it was not by an immigrant so stop thinking politicians are incompetent they are just following the agenda which is to transition power from the greater American empire to the new Chinese empire just like they transitioned from the British empire to the American empire with the aid of 2 world wars which they started their objective is to destroy the west with mass migration and dismantling of western armed forces to allow the transition to happen they will fail I expect this email to be deleted as we cannot have the truth revealed can we
You’re great at the technical stuff but your politics stinks, the Tories are entirely to blame for the current situation 14 years is plenty of time for them to have fixed problems IF they preexisted but they didn’t even try they just underinvested everywhere and called it “austerity”.
Nicely put.
Looking forward to being taxed excessively from October and all of the issues resolved completely in the next 4 years then, lets see!
If all those high earners would just pay a bit more
Well said,
The IFS called that £20b nonsense out quite quickly!
I agree re the MoD, except for the timespan – the MoD has always since inception been incompetent and a bigger waste of public money. If you went back the 1960s setup (e.g. Admiralty and got rid of anything, and anyone, mentioning ‘joint force…’ blah blah) and distributed the funding accordingly, things would be much better.
Re article, look for a RN Hunter-Killer (love that a term better than SSN!) coming into port soon (relatively). If that occurs, then it MAY have been the sanitising escort; If not the Yank was it.
As I have said more than once the cuts started and were more severe under Blair/Brown. As for being shocked S&R had all the treasury papers back in May, assuming there is a black hole at all. If there is, the blackh hole left for Cameron was over twice as much. As for the future the Strategic Defence Cuts Review will be unvailed in 2025.
If true, how long have the Tories had to put it right ? Fourteen years. Did they ? Of course not but they did slash the forces and leave gaps in capabilities to justify ‘austerity’ aka make the rich even richer and saod everyone else.
Did I say the Tories were any good at defence? No, I didn’t. They,and at first, their Liberal mates were dreadfull. Wherever possible I deal in facts. If you don’t like them there is nothing I can do about it.😏
You didn’t, but I like to also point out the facts, which you have amplified with clarity.
👍
The LibDems had virtually no power in the coalition and we’re totally hoodwinked by the Tories.
They should have let the Tories manage ith a minority government.
They degraded everything and invested nothing, and when they did invest look at the total and utter cock up that is HS2 look at the northern powerhouse and levelling up and then go visit the places they promised to give money too and then just didn’t.
As for immigration, look how many promises they made time and time again and immigration, both legal and illegal just kept going up!
As for small boats there weren’t ANY ten years ago , these were created by Tory policies which denied any sensible legal way in to claim asylum.
I’m not trying to defend anybody but I do think you have skewed history to suit your own politics. You seem to have forgotten a few things like Covdd, a world energy crisis, the war in Ukraine and others. If it was all the Tories fault why are the same problems hitting the whole of Europe, Japan and even the mighty U.S. A. The Tories were bad on defence but they can’t be blamed for everything.
Its amazing that the tories actually influenced global economies and everyone elses inflation outside of the UK. I totally forget the empire is no more and we no longer control the globe reading some of the comments at times online!
Well at least the Rich who have made so much money will be doing a mass exodus from the country later this year as will be no point staying.
Lets see how well that works for the economy when they are no longer in the country spending all the money they got handed tax free from the previous government.
I hope for your sake you’re not in business, on a decent salary or a pensioner because if you are you’re going to get hurt.
Oh please don’t try the blame the last Government blurb, they were completely useless but they did actually wake up and fund the upgrades.
Unfortunately when it comes to this one it’s a multi pronged sword as it goes back to the 90’s.
The underlying issue of not funding fit for purpose maintenance facilities for RN warships goes all the way back through Cameron, Brown, Blair and Major. Every single one of them funded Astutes, T45, QE, T26 and T31 but no new facilities to put them in, nor fix them.
If you Bigger ships / boats then you to buy need bigger docks at the same time. Worst culprit was probably Brown. He bought his 2 QE carriers, to be built in his neighbouring constituency, cancelled lots of other things to pay for them and the only Dry Dock they will just fit into is Rosyth.
Our national debt repayments don’t even cover the interest, the country is fukced and has been for a long time. The WEF great reset will fix that though, when we’ve all been either wiped out by another man made biological weapon or a few nukes they keep pressing Putin for. 👍🏿
Explain how there is black hole when the taxation level under the supposed conservatives, but more like full blown social democrats in practice is at all time high except for WW2?
Wow a starmer fan…
It’s a lot more than £20bn.
The last Govt spent the last 2 years shovelling expenditure and necessary decisions until beyond the next Election in the hope of saving their backsides.
They have their answer, and the new Govt has to pick up the pieces, on everything.
Does this count as proof that we can’t defend ourselves?
The Astutes are relatively new compared to the likes of Triumph, with Anson being the very latest. What is it about them that appears to make them so maintenance intensive? To have 5 in commission and all alongside, effectively unable to operate begs some serious questions…….project Euston is all well and good, but the two floating dry docks have yet to be ordered, let a lone built? We’re talking years….would it not be more practical to buy an existing dock and get it to Faslane ASAP?
Triumph was being serviced at Guz in the old nuclear DD’s.
New DD’s are needed for the Asututes. They were not ordered in time but are in build now. It is that simple.
Not so simple I’m afraid. I’m aware of the Sub refit facilities at Devonport and the complete lack of preparation for the Astutes, but why do these boats need so much time in dry dock? They’re supposedly designed to spend reasonable periods of time at sea without requiring dry dock attention, the Trafalgars conducted multiple patrols without requiring dry dock attention, so why do our new, supposedly better boats end up spending so much time alongside/in dock?
Down to what the Duty Holder would sign off on.
Nobody will take risk on anything.
The Trafalgars were under the old system so that carries across.
Well Astute is 14, Ambush is 11 and Artful is 8 years old and they are due a refit / update so that’s 3 out of 5 and Anson is new and post trials so will need some de snagging work so 4 out of 5. Which leaves Audacious and I bet she is being kept safe for CSG25.
As far as I am aware there is no fundamental issue with these boats but there is a massive issue somewhere else and it isn’t confined to just these.
Let’s just call it the Trilemma of incompetence.
Each class of ship/boat is bigger than the one before, so at some point they outgrow the available facilities.
Each class is also more sophisticated and expensive than its predecessor so fewer can be purchased but tasking remains the same.
When you have fewer ships to do the same tasking, you need to ensure high availability rates, which require suitable maintenance facilities and a trained workforce.
Unfortunately our system is run by Politicians who have little or no knowledge of the subject matter, work purely in a short term ethos of SEP (someone else’s problem. And they know full well that by the time the Plop goes Pop due to their decisions they are retired and safely sitting in the House of Lords.
FYI in the last Parliament there was exactly 1 MP who had an engineering background, so don’t expect anything different.
Astute, T45, QE, T26 and T31 were all ordered without one single Penny being spent on providing the facilities to maintain or refit them when ordered.
Hence the QE is massively vulnerable due to being solely reliant on Rosyth Drydock and its way less than ideal. There are 2 other perfectly usable ones if someone got them back into use.
T45, T26 and T31 are all to big for the sheds at Devonport, so everything has to be done outside either against the wall or in a Dock probably at CL.
Major, Blair and Brown are responsible for all of the above and Cameron didn’t do much to fix them when he could.
Bottom line is we doing something regarding the SSBN/SSNs, not a lot to secure Inchgreen or H&W for the QE’s and we need a new covered refit facility which can take the present and future Escorts.
Now tell Starmer 🤔
“Trilemma of incompetence” 🤔😳😁👍 Believe that condition may be contagious, already transmitted to former colonies. 😉
I’m actually quite proud of that one, it’s a modification of an old Naval Architect expression.
Now we can try and sort out the rest of your miss use of the English.
Aluminium is not pronounced Aluminum. It’s the same as Plutonium as in ium.
Boot not Trunk.
Bumper not Fender.
Bonnet not Hood.
Trousers not Pants
Trump is….
Oh yes you got that one right, it’s usually embarrassing, can be loud / smelly and impossible to control.
🇬🇧🇺🇸😉
Ummm…
Lorry…not truck
Lift…not elevator
Don’t even know what you refer to escalators as?!?
By the way, sometime we must ponder the existence of the Loch Ness (monster?). AKA Nellie by her close mates? 🤔😉
Expect WW3 if the Paedocrats 🐹🦄🏳️🌈 steal the election again.
Or a Poltus for the Potus. 😊🙃🕳️Btth
Sorry, virtually all responses are currently being embargoed by site moderator(s).
Heh heh, it’s ok FORMERUSAF, he’s got a cream for it. 👌
😊🙃🕳️Btth.
👍
Consider how long these boats have been in the water without a drydock..astute has been in the water 17 years, ambush 13 years and artful a decade…these are not new boats…it’s not that they need a lot of drydock…but they do need drydocks and they are all older boats now.
Simple really, they have not actually build a dry dock in Devonport to take the astutes out of the water..the only Available dry dock for SSNs was equipped to maintain the Trafalgars. That dock has now been taken out of commission and is being rebuilt to take Asutes…it seems no one though we needed a drydock for the Astutes.
Wasnt Anson effectively Astute Mk2 with a raft of changes over the previous versions? Maybes teething issues with some of the new gadgetry?
Irrespective of political party, since the opening of Abbeywood and the centralisation of Defence procurement and support, the government has continued to purchase nice shiny toys, but at the same time, privatising the support, repair and supply chains as well as cutting “in-service” spending. The 20/80 rule (or Iceberg) effect which is used to show that initial purchase costs are dwarfed by in-service costs, seems to have been turned on its head since out two expeditions into the sandpit.
We have neither, the personnel, skills, tools or spares to maintain all this shiny kit, which “sadly” isn’t shiny anymore as politicians keep taking it out and sending it overseas to show how good we are.
Moan over 😁
Nothing short of disgusting is it? No excuses need to be given for sheer incompetence and degradation of duty to guard the nation and Natos interests. This country is totally banjaxed in most areas. From defence, NHS, policing and a host of other issues. And we are not alone, look at Canada as another basket case for defence, the silly little Frenchman has them paying green taxes on everything. Still, lets be optimistic, Two Tier and the socialists will cure all ills by telling more porky pies 🙄
Remember having to use US & French assets to perform maritime reconn ? That was under the Tories. Still, having been in office for nearly two months it’s clearly Labour’s fault. Btw, if you look at the figures ethnic groups it isn’t the white community that suffers from ‘two tier’ policing. Porky pies ? Nah, they’ll never get top the level ‘Boris’ and the party boys managed. Guinness Book of Records have been in touch with Central Office, I hear.
The us navy helping us is good to see ,but 7 astute boats how bloody woeful the numbers ,diesel -electric, hydrogen electric engines for a cheaper option patrol sub like when the oberon class were in service and they were workhorses and let the nuclear patrol subs be elsewhere, they patrol round Britain and Northern Europe, give them an endurance of 30 to 45 days technology nowadays could give it a small crew maybe 20 ,I know it’s just an idea but surely the possibility is there,
Well Starmer said things will get worse before they Get better 🙄 Think on Defence it’s at the Bottom of the list of things to do along with Reeves .PM more interested in sucking back up to Europe and of course been nice and green despite all that oil of the cost of Scotland . Sure that would help our Economy .Sorry for morning rant 🤒
Yes, because Brexit was such a success, and the Tories were marvellous for the copuntry – remember the Truss ‘budget’ ? It’s not ‘sucking up to Europe’ to have better relations with one of the biggest (and closest) trading unions in the world, it’s common sense. Far better than Cameron putting party before country to prevent a few rightwing mps causing trouble. AS for sucking up, is it better to do it to the USA ?
No doubt about it Tories have made a mess ,but I fear with Labour government it will be more give then take with Europe .Thing called National pride long gone by all party’s. 🙄
I see the assistance of the USN both ways, a positive and at the same time a damning indictment.
Whoever is responsible for this, Minister, Admiral, why in God’s name did they not realise that new assets require updated infrastructure to support them?
A public enquiry would reveal a lot and of course that is never happening.
I don’t know enough to speculate if SSN are even able to deploy In crisis without this maintenance. One for GB, Deep and ABC.
And seeming as there are no floating dry docks in sight, what time frame are we talking here? We know this stuff takes years to do.
Morning Mate,
A quick google search (other search engines are available, or so I have heard 😀 ) referred me to a UKDJ article from 17 Jan 2024 that stated the project was in the concept phase and a request for information had been put out to industry… No ISD had been set at the time.
I also found a job advert from the MoD for the AFTDC (Additional Fleet Time Docking Capability) team that is apparently being stood up at HMNB Clyde to help integrate the new capability into the Base operations. Interestingly it mentioned that the program was valued at £2b…
The new team might be related to the appointment letter for the Senior Responsible Officer for all infrastructure work at Faslane which I also found. It is dated 5 Feb 2024, the thing is the letter recognises that he has been doing the job since Noc 2022! Key responsibilities are to bring forward new infrastructure projects to support CASD out to 2067 and SSN ops out to 2046 and to prepare for Dreadnaught. Oh yeh, Project EUSTON is mentioned by name in a footnote..! on page one to be fair.
Those dates are encouraging in that the MoD seems to be taking a long view for a change – lets hope these plans survive…
Cheers CR
Morning mate.
Brilliant research!
The sort of sleuthing I loved doing when I had the time!
CR,
Good morning. Believe there was a recent NL article detailing DD infrastructure improvement projects at Devonport. The reported timeline to completion was relatively rapid, probably not more than a year or two. Presume this will resolve maintenance facility availability issues. There may, or may not, be a separate issue re relative maintenance requirements for the Astute class. Have read articles w/ radically different viewpoints on the subject. Personally, not qualified to judge, but generally believe maintenance requirements are correlated w/ the complexity of the system and are not necessarily indicative of design deficiencies. 🤔
Evening mate,
Hope all is well State side.
I read that article as well and I agree that it was rather more up beat. On reflection, and in keeping with a more positive vain, it could be the upgrades at Devonport will go along way to addressing the immediate issues with the ship lifts at Faslane providing a long term solution to routine maintenance as the Dreadnaught class come into service..? As there are no technical details on the lifts available one can only hope they they are big enough to lift a Dreadnaught class boat, there is always a risk…
The NL article seemed to suggest that the existig ship lift at Faslane will be available again soon as a replacement supplier for the steel cables had been found. Also, the RN apparently told NL that the Astute class boats would be active again later this year, with one sailing with CSG25 and a boat being based in Australia from 2027.
Finally, I wonder if the two lifts might provide enough additional maintenance capacity for an enlarged SSN fleet when the AUKUS SSN arrives in the ’40’s… You never know, MoD might actually be planning for a bigger fleet. One of the new lifts to replace the existing lift and the second increasing capacity, maybe? Well we can dream can’t we.
Cheers CR
Second shiplift? Missed the reference entirely. Presumably, original shiplift already restored to function and eventually, when the two floating drydocks are functional, there will be a significant increase in maintenance capacity/caoability.
OK, now everyone but CR, please continue about your day. Nothing to see.
Are we alone? Ok, now my private, strictly unofficial speculation. Quite possibly, the USN is measuring the curtains for a move into HMNB Devonport and/or Clyde, at least in terms of SSN refits. Why? USN has an abiding interest in clearing an unsustainable SSN maintenance backlog. The USN SSN fleet may increase to a possible 66 boats by 2054, and even greater numbers thereafter, depending upon ChiCom behavior. Uncle Sugar will also be interested in additional forward operating bases (aka ports). More frequent port calls? Keep sayin’ that once you let the camel poke his nose into the tent, the rest of the beast will surely, shortly follow. Probably best to consider us as your ancestors did: Yanks are overpaid, oversexed, and most importantly, over here. 🙄 History rarely repeats, but frequently rhymes.
Incidentally, predict essentially the same path forward for the Aussies. Really don’t have the heart to inform them how this will play out eventually…probably should let them acquire all those shiny new boats and play w/ the Virginias and SSN-As, before revealing the permanent presence of Uncle Sugar and his minions. Perhaps you could drop them a line in a few years, on my behalf? Thanks. 🤔😳😉
Sorry for the late reply but your points are interesting indeed…
Firstly, your quip about Yanks being over…. here, well you guys never really left 😀 There are still 10 USAF bases spaced across the heart of England from Lakenheath in the east to Fairford in the West, not all of them are flying stations, of course. Our local BBC News program often reports the arrival of B-52, B-1, etc. visiting Fairford.
As for your suggestion that USN would like to base SSN in the UK, well historically there were SSBN’s based out of Holly Loch, of course, although they were not refitted in the UK as far as I am aware. So I would say that USN SSN being based in the UK and maintained and refitted in the UK might not be seen as such a big step (and I’m sure HMT would welcome the extra tax take on work done..!).
Having said that, I would hope that the Devonport refit facilities would be busy with RN SSN-A boats, certainly the recently reported UK cash* injection into UK nuclear infrastructure suggests that the UK is going to increase its SSN force – it bl***y well needs to IMO.
Anyway, in light of certain isolationist comments from certain quarters in the US recently I would think the UK would be only to keen to welcome the USN back, if it were to happen.
Personally I would like to see the RN get at least a dozen SSN-A’s, plus a surface fleet of at least 40 ESCORTS – whether I’ll be around to see that is a moot point 🙂
Cheers CR
*The UK investment attached to AUKUS has now surpassed the original £4B – UKDJ September 26, 2024, Lisa West.
Don’t forget the Devonport work, that should all be finished off in a few years and that will give:
9 dock for V class SSBN refit
10 dock for astute and future SSBN maintenance
15 dock astute refit.
That will be plenty of capacity.
Yup, there was an article on NL and I mention the Devonport work in my response to FormerUSAF above…
According to the NL article’s discussion of Dock 15 (Dec 2023) there should be ‘beneficial use of the facilities’ towards the end of 2024. This ties in with a more recent article on NL that suggested RN SSN availability should improve soon…
Cheers CR
This is a subject that just makes my blood boil as it was completely avoidable and it’s not confined to this single issue. Have a read of what I posted to Paul 42 re the background the underlying problem is endemic.
If they seriously want to fix the SSN issue and think ahead then the simple, quickest and cheapest solution is to buy 2 new but covered Floating Drydocks which is why they have yet another project (no mention of funding of course).
Unfortunately IMHO they will need to go overseas for them, we just do not have the existing capacity to build something that has to have a 20k tonnes plus lifting capacity and preferably covered. And we haven’t built once since AFD 60 in the 60’s.
Turkey has just built a very specialised one just for their SSK’s (@3.5 K tonne lift), so it’s way too small for ours but it’s a very interesting design.
I’d take the bull by the Horns and talk to S Korea about it (and also the RAN / USN as they may have a similar requirement 🤔).
AFDs are cheaper than traditional graving docks and they are portable.
Insane. Our government seemingly hates us and wants us as weak and neutered as possible.
Which government ? You can’t mean the one in office since July 5th ? If you mean the Tories I’d say it was their usual bungling and greed, bot anything malicious – though a few of them seem keen on Mr Putin. How he must have laughed at Brexit. Not only did it fracture European relations but itb helped promote the break up of the UK for a while.
If Labour had not elected Corbyn leader it is highly unlikely the Tory’s would have remained in power for 14 years.
A very fair point but it doesn’t excuse the Tories for their dismal record.
The uniparty, I mean. It doesn’t matter what the colour of the rosette is, the effect is the same
You are going to find out that there is clear water between this government and the last.
He must of also laughed when Tony Blair show round a government secret bunker in the 90s ,which our Top brass weren’t happy about 🙄
Could you check the date ? Not that I doubt you but it seems he didn’t make his first visit to the UK till 2000. It’s not really comparable though, a controlled visit with security in the UK to the Foreign Sec bunking off without his security detail at a dodgy party in Italy ? Which bunker was it, btw ? Corsham ? Had a daily satellite pass by the Russians for decades. It’s not in use for co-ordinating post attack recovery or as a command centre since the late 60’s. Most of it is unused now, apart from a section which is secured. It was replaced by Python and other succeeding plans. RAF Command bunker at High Wycombe ? Was third on the Soviet UK target list for decades, presumably just behind Fleet HQ at Northwood. Most bunkers were known to the Soviets years ago.
I remember that one, I still recall the photo.
Blair showed Putin Cabinet Briefing Room A. Cobra.
Where that actually is within the Whitehall tunnel/ underground network has never been officially acknowledged, but in the DCMC is my guess.
On Corsham, CDCN ( Hawthorn site ) in Browns Quarry was around into the 90s and I believe that had the UK wide function. The site above still has the Skynet function, so assume Browns below is also still used.
Now the CDCN role is in GOSCC over the road of course.
Other parts are still used, much of the southern end of Rudloe site was sold off to build a Data Centre, and I’m quite confident they make full use of the space beneath.
I’d also be surprised that, having spent the best part of a billion updating the Basil Hill part of Corsham, the area under GOSCC isn’t used as a basement for all the tech bits.
The section you reference is in District 8 of Tunnel Q I think, I had a nice chat with the MDP when I visited it in the 90s!!! 🤪
A while ago I was ‘shot down in flames’ by a SME for stating my belief that the at-sea bomber had a SSN shadow.
I think that’s still the case mate.
Our SSN need to be hunting OPFOR SSN and carrying out intelligence roles, not acting as an escort.
An SSBN crawling along as but a whisper in the ocean does not need one. They lose themselves in its vastness.
This is for a specific point in the patrol only, where a submarine that has somehow been missed by NATOs ASW infrastructure is waiting and then follows a surfaced bomber from the point it dives to begin it’s CASD patrol.
That is the weak point. A bit like standing to in an OP at dawn/dusk.
That is how I understand it?
Thanks Daniele.
I don’t think it’s an ongoing escort task, just clearing the way before the SSBN reaches the open sea. Pretty standard for all navies with such boats.
Neither do I. A waste of an SSN if it was, as well as increasing the chance of detection.
Does anyone know how the works on Devonport Dock 9, 14 and 15 are progressing? All had completion dates quoted as 2024. Are any of them likely to brought on-line anytime soon?
The first sensible question in the thread!
Not much given out on this TBH.
Probably easiest to take a wander down there and have a look at how much construction kit is being moved out! How many tin office/cabins have been removed….generally the best way to see if a competitors project is closing out!
Total incompetence…..a vastly reduced fleet reduced even further by lack of maintenance capability…..is this extra maintence required due to the overworking fleet due to lack of numbers or overworking fleet due to lack of maintenance 🐔 or 🥚
Thank goodness for the US navy but doesnt this yet again highlight the sorry state of the Royal Navy infrastructure and the need for more resources , both boats and maintenence infrastructure . The fact that relatively new boats are tied up awaiting maintenence ought to set alarm bells ringing at the MoD
The failure to have a plan B in the event of a problem at Faslane is incomprehensible given the critical importance of the SSBN and SSN fleet. Collectively our most expensive assets have been unavailable for 6 months, with Ambush inactive for over 2 years. Amidst a number of poor decisions, allowing this to happen must be the worst. I don’t accept that this lack of resilience is entirely the fault of politicians. This is the RNs fault. Their senior leaders seem clueless.
So on one occasion an American boat ran interference for a Canguard subs. Errrr so what.!!!
I remember on a recent documentary series about life aboard a type z23. They ran interference for an American submarine on a visit to the U.K. there was a Russian sub in the area and the 23 made sure the acoustic environment was particularly challenging to hide the American boats signature.
I believe it is called cooperation.
One instance does not prove a pattern.
‘ran interference’? What does that mean?
It means kept any bad guys off the Vanguards boats tail.
Many thanks.
US expression – acting as a shield or buffer against any hostile forces on the behalf of another party.
I wondered that too. Interference used in this case is not English that a Brit would recognise, thus Grahams question.
To run interference, whilst NOT in day to day use, it is certainly “terminology” familiar to those who NEED to know.
Thanks. Which is one reason why it’s odd it’s used here, there will be very few who understood it as I’d say with confidence most here did not NEED to know as they’re civilians, and BRITISH ones at that, ,unused to “Americanisms”
Graham was an officer in thr British Army, and he didn’t get it either.
I think the term comes from American Football. The defence wish to tackle someone with the ball, and running interference is getting in their way so the guy with the ball can run unopposed.
Anyone who watches US football shows or films will be familiar, or indeed those who watch the sport. I had no idea it wasn’t commonly understood; it’s not a need to know kind of thing. There again I sometimes watch odd sports for a season or two. I still regret not being able to get tickets for the Sumo basho that was held in the Albert Hall in the early 90s.
Jon, my “Need to know” comment, wasn’t about secrecy, more if you work in that environment/ area it’s a common term. Similarly “being given your left and right or arc”, means pointing out on a firing range the left and right safety boundaries. This can then transfer into other roles, where effectively it means you know what you can and can’t do.
Okay I confess, I am a Scot who watches American football.
However, in my defence, delousing ( as used in this publication recent apology). Is not exactly common English vernacular.
Thanks. We seem to have adopted so many Americanisms in Defence.
Sounds entirely plausible.
14 Dock at Devonport is also badly needed. It is currently being refitted and reconfigured to take Astute Class SSNs now that HMS Triumph has finished her last refit.
For me I don’t see the point. No US captain is going to launch on the instructions of a British Prime Minister. That dog will not hunt.
Launch ? Launch what it’s an SSN and it’s escorting our SSBNs whilst it safely deploys without anyone following it. And the only time the RN and USN will be launching anything is at a point no one wants to think about.
You have no deterrent if you do not have the ultimate trump card to play. Any Russian or Chinese skipper will know the US rules of engagement. If you are sending an SSN on an escort mission it needs that card in its armoury. Otherwise you are purely on a listening mission. The job in my time was largely done by Seakings from Ganet using dipping sonar and Nimrods from Lossiemouth using bouys. They also carried something more deadly.
In your scenario you could send an unarmed vessel, next step would be outsource to civilian contractors. You will be sending QRA up unarmed next.
I think you need to reread your original post. It reads like you are implying an SSN is the same as an SSBN and under direct PM control.
Trust me I know the difference. Having been onboard both types as well as O boats. No vessel is under direct control of anybody apart fron the Commandind Officer. However authorisation to launch is sought where possible in a contenscious situation. As was the case the last time a British boat launched. In that case it was the PM that had the final say. I can also assure you that the PM is very much kept regularly informed of boats TAOR. For very obvious reasons.
The upkeep of the HK fleet is well documented and hopefully being addressed.
However the issue( non issue) of an allies sub running interference for one of ours is nothing strange or unusual. I suspect the Americans jumped at the chance of sanitising the route for the Vanguard boat patrol departure.
Arranged and impromptu cross training and joint exercise are not uncommon ( I believe) within NATO fleet.
No real consolation but the USN has similar problems – 40% of its SSN fleet is inactive awaiting maintenance.
None of the bodes well for AUKUS.
It’s a major concern that if there is any truth in this story it means we are failing to keep our nuclear deterrent operational and if so heads should roll. It makes one wonder just how safe our country really is.
I hope the US makes their dissatisfaction about this situation very clear to the governement.
How can they ? They are nearly as badly off as we are, only thing saving them is they have more boats and docks than we do.
Same problem as us, years of funding boats but not funding maintenance facilities.
I believe they made it very clear that any reduction, as was suggested a few years ago, that any reduction in minesweeping capability would be very unwelcome. I’m not sure now what is stationed in Middle East waters but I think that was the point at issue.
A diversion but since some have chosen to turn this into a polemic about immigrants a few facts from the Red Cross (don’t let the usre evil socialists !)00e of red make you think they’re evil commies !)
https://www.redcross.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/how-we-support-refugees/find-out-about-refugees
Quote
“In 2022, the UK received applications for asylum for 89,398 people (including dependants). This is far fewer people applying for asylum in the UK compared to other countries. It’s around three times less than the number of applications received by Germany (243,835), and considerably less than France (156,455) and Spain (117,945)”
So the claim ‘they all want to come here’ is either ignorance or a lie.
Some facts on asylum seekers from the Red Cross:-
https://www.redcross.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/how-we-support-refugees/find-out-about-refugees
Quote ” In 2022, the UK received applications for asylum for 89,398 people (including dependants). This is far fewer people applying for asylum in the UK compared to other countries. It’s around three times less than the number of applications received by Germany (243,835), and considerably less than France (156,455) and Spain (117,945)”.
Clearly that statement that ‘they’re all coming here’ is either based on ignorance or a lie. Like the ‘Culture war’, based on ‘woke’ & ‘snowflake’ immigration was used by a desperate government to divert from their obvious incompetence and corruption. It didn’t work but as ever, putting party before country, the Tories have caused immense damage.
£13b foreign aid supposedly buys us “soft power”, meanwhile the hard power of actual military capability dies a death by a thousand cuts. Not to mention 11.6b to ” help the third world fight climate change”..
Imagine what £8b a year of the foreign aid bill for a decade could give us If added to defence.
1x SSN per year, 1 x frigate, 1 x sampt -ng battery, 50 tanks and 50 IFV, 1 squadron of Typhoon, 500 land and air launched cruise missiles, 2 P-8s and a billion quid worth of FPV drones and loitering munitions.
That would be a Polish like uplift to our military mass
I have to say, I’d assumed that to be the case, given the lack of availability of our SSNs
Sir Starmer will use the submarines to bring hundred of illegals, it,s more “humanitarian”
Infrastructure at Faslane must be upgraded and urgently needed funds for restitution of the might of His Majesty Royal Fleet must be allocated. That’s obvious from such outrageous situation in UK army and aviation and technology for upgrades of the AUKUS alliance. Kursk operations region and Belgorod regions have demonstrated that UK is ill- prepared to fight an army of it’s orders with conventional or nuclear weapons. Do it please and do it now . Stop squabbling in Parliament or Downing street. God bless America and Israel and Britain and France for the efforts that are being out into the war machine now
If none of the SSNs have been at sea for over 40 days, it indicates for whatever reason they can’t be at sea. As such the story could well be true.
In itself it isn’t an issue, we are at relative peace times and so we don’t need subs at sea. If it’s just a cost saving measure and they could be put to sea if needed then not a major concern as money would be found in a war situation. If however they are all out of service and would take a while to get back to duty then that is an issue as wars have a habit of arriving unexpectedly.
I doubt a US Navy boat has been used for delousing. US boats are in and out of Faslane on a regular basis. Its a great asset for them rather than having to go all the way back to the states. Also, we have a number of options to see if any Russian subs are in the area. We pretty much know every single Russian sub movement as soon as they leave port through satellite and other intelligence gathering methods. Even well before they leave port. Under water sensors in the GIUK gap, P8 patrols (RAF and allies) and the T23 towed array. So I have every faith our nuclear deterrent can start and finish a patrol undetected by unwanted visitors without SSN support.
Didn’t RN provide key escort to USS Wasp very recently? We help each other, which means if we have to work together in a critical time, it all runs smoothly. It’s a bit of an indictment of our sub availability, but there’s definitely an upside too.
Serious question. Does anyone know whether the RN has suffered with the inability/unwillingness to refit ships (or subs) in the past?
I don’t understand this kind of journalism… can’t be both?
Allies have been filling in for each other since forever. It’s nothing new. Any carrier away from its own shores usually has allied escorts. Anything from a destroyer to a patrol boat (depending on the ally). Don’t forget it cuts both ways.
Tom Sharpe (today’s Daily Telegraph) says that the USN has NOT been delousing our SSBNs.
This report is not corroborated and amounts to speculation….
A good story …..
Does any Friendly SSN have to sail on the. Clyde surface when navigating into Faslane ? If so then surely a competent Adversary will see this. So when the ‘Friendly’ SSN leaves the Clyde estuary – sanitising the exit points would be virtually useless.I could watch USS Hello There leaving the Clyde with a pair of cheap binoculars.& With some basic Arithmetic /Geometry & knowledge of the subterranean approaches …could possibly do multiple vectoring scenarios? You only have to keep on playing Roulette to get lucky one day ?
It seemed an unlikely story, but the acknowledgement of this shouldn’t distract from the fact that the RN’s SSN hunter-killer fleet is in an appalling state with almost zero availability. Indeed, it may be in the worst state since HMS Dreadnought entered service in 1963. Dreadnought – despite being the RN’s very first nuclear submarine – had a surprisingly good reputation for reliability and was then very hard worked for five years. By the time she finally entered her first major refit, Valiant and Warspite were also operational – both again proving very reliable until late in their careers.
If only the Astute’s were similar to these early SSN’s, a now ironic quote from Admiral Sir Alan West made on 24 November 2004: “The Defence Planning Guide, … requires five or six (operational) [SSNs], depending on the circumstances, available for use . When I have got the Astute’s … my worry about having availability will be gone.”
This, another well known website, and RUSI are suggesting – presumably based upon open source information in the public domain – that it’s uncertain if Vice Admiral Andrew Burns has even one SSN available for use at the moment, despite five Astute’s being in commission.