With the issue of Scottish independence again being discussed, the issue of Royal Navy shipbuilding in Scotland has become controversial once again.

One side, the Scottish government, say that naval shipbuilding would continue if Scotland left the UK. The other side, the UK government, say it would not.

“No warships would have been built on the Clyde, because the United Kingdom Government would not have chosen to build them there.”

The issue of UK naval contracts in Scotland has been a hot topic both before and after the 2014 Independence Referendum and even more so recently when several groups indicated that the work on complex warships for the Royal Navy would not go to an independent country.

Nicola Sturgeon earlier insisted that it would be a betrayal to go back the promise to build the frigate fleet in Scotland. Sturgeon said:

“Promises were made about orders to these yards and promises were made about jobs at these yards, and I think it is absolutely vital now these contracts are delivered. These yards have been through some really difficult times with a reduction in the workforce, and they thought that that was all part of the process of getting themselves into shape for the Type 26 and securing a level of employment here. This is about jobs and securing jobs in an industry. It would be a complete betrayal of these yards if there was any U-turn or going back on on promises made.”

The original plan for the Type 26 had been eight anti-submarine warfare variants and five general purpose variants, this changed when five if then were cancelled, with the gap in orders having been filled by five River class Offshore Patrol Vessels and Rosyth being awarded five Type 31e Frigates.

18 vessels of three types are to be built in two yards. For more on what’s going to be built, have a look here.

Doesn’t the UK build ships overseas anyway?

Before the referendum, many were accused of exaggerating how secure the shipbuilding industry would be after independence. This came about due to comments made by Geoff Searle, director of the Type 26 Global Combat programme indicating that they had no back–up plan to the Clyde if a ‘Yes’ vote was returned. However, the Ministry of Defence, the shipbuilding union and BAE themselves all claim that major warship builds would be reconsidered if Scotland left the UK.

Many in industry rejected this interpretation, advocating the position that no alternative plan did not rule out the possibility of the UK Government rethinking investment in the Clyde in the event of independence, something which was later confirmed by ministers.

“The Government is not making contingency plans because we are confident that the Scottish people will vote to remain part of the UK. No Royal Navy warships have been built outside the UK since the Second World War for national security reasons and we have no intention of doing so in future.”

Many have also misconstrued the building of naval tankers in South Korea for the RFA as a break in this policy, that is not the case. Support vessels like this are eligible to be constructed outside the UK as only ‘complex warship’ construction (such as frigates) must stay within UK borders. Besides, no UK yard bid for the work.

RFA Tidespring

Other than procurement activity undertaken during the World Wars, the UK has not had a complex warship built outside of the UK since the start of the 20th century at least. All of the Royal Navy’s new complex warships are being built in UK shipyards and the UK Government says it remains committed to utilising the strengths of UK industry in this specialist and complex area.

There’s also the matter of contracts using US technology, defence contractors that work with items or technology of US origin are also covered by undertakings given in accordance with the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), under which any change to an existing US export licence requires US State Department approval. An independent Scottish state would be a third-party country, not covered by existing UK-US ITAR agreements.

UK companies would not have authority to transfer items and information that is subject to ITAR licence to their subsidiaries or other companies in an independent Scottish state or to a Scottish national, without US approval, anymore than it could transfer such material to organisations or individuals in other foreign states.

Every licence held by companies in Scotland working on ITAR-controlled items would have to be re-approved if Scotland became independent, this is a very lengthy process.

Isn’t Scotland the only location in the UK capable of building warships?

Claims at the time of the referendum that the only option for BAE on the event of independence was to continue to build the ships in Glasgow were refuted at the time by John Dolan, GMB convenor at the Scotstoun yard in Glasgow:

“She was saying that the Clyde is the only game in town. I’m afraid it is not. There’s shipbuilders in Cammell Laird in Liverpool. You have got the A&P Group on the Tyne, who are shipbuilders, and you have got Barrow in Furness. So to say if Scotland goes independent we will still be building Type 26 frigates… listen, I assure you that if we go for independence we will not be building. We have been told quite clearly by the UK government and I have been told quite clearly that will not happen.”

What are the builders saying about this?

Ian King, former chief executive of BAE, had indicated in a letter submitted to the Scottish Affairs Committee before the referendum that shipyards on the Clyde would likely have to close if Scotland were to leave the UK.

Mr King said BAE would build the ships at a location compatible with the contract awarding process of the Ministry of Defence:

“In the event of a Yes vote, and as we have made clear, we would be required to discuss the future of the Type 26 programme with our customer, the MoD. It would be for the MoD to determine how the vote affects the final decisions they have yet to make on the programme, including the future location of the build of the ships. We would take our customer’s lead in these circumstances. We cannot determine this outcome in advance, or without the direction of the MoD.”

The Ministry of Defence, the customer referred to above by Mr King, has recently made clear that leaving the UK would influence the ‘location of the build of the ships’.

The full statement, an excerpt of which is displayed at the top of this article, was made by then Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology with responsibility for Defence procurement and Defence exports in response to a question from Brendan O’Hara, MP for Argyll and Bute, regarding the Type 26 frigates.

“What I can confirm to the hon. Gentleman is that, had the independence vote gone the way that he and his colleagues would have liked, no warships would have been built on the Clyde, because the United Kingdom Government would not have chosen to build them there; we made that very clear. As it is, as I have just confirmed to the House, we will be proceeding with the construction of eight complex Type 26 warships on the Clyde as and when the programme is ready.”

What about Scottish naval vessels?

Scotland would still need a navy right? Up to date facts on what an independent Scotland would operate at sea, let alone what it would build aren’t easy to come by. The SNP earlier proposed that under independence Scotland would:

“Take over existing naval, army and air force bases within Scotland and inherit a share of defence equipment in negotiation with the rest of the UK.”

HMS Forth in Scotstoun, the first of five new Offshore Patrol Vessels.

Prior to the referendum, the SNP had planned to inherit two Type-23 frigates in addition to four mine countermeasures vessels, two offshore patrol vessels and four to six patrol boats from all from the Royal Navy’s current fleet.

This leaves seemingly little needing built and any ships that would be constructed, would likely be a few Offshore Patrol Vessels. The plan, it seems, was for the build of two Offshore Patrol Vessels.

Given that the already slow drumbeat of MoD orders are barely enough to sustain the yards as it is, this doesn’t bode well for the yards future if Scotland chooses to leave. Put simply, a couple of ships are not enough to sustain one of the largest shipyards in the UK.

Conclusion

The only way for naval shipbuilding to continue to be viable in Scotland after independence would be for the Scottish government to place a significant order totalling many billions of pounds for a large volume of warships.

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Harry Bulpit
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Harry Bulpit

I think its time we move the Ships now. Scotland seems hell bent on gaining their independence and that’s up to them, but frankly its a security risk and we aught to start making preparations now. Also if an independence vote is to be allowed (brigudgingly thinking it should) then the deal of such withdraw should be determined before such vote. hopefully it will include keeping HMNB Clyde, passing on Scotland’s debt on to itself, stop all money going to Scotland, give them 15% of the North Sea Oil fields and move all naval ship building from Scotland.

Mike
Guest
Mike

Scotland is not hell bent on Independence, the SNP are, and they do not represent the majority of the people living in Scotland.

Harry Bulpit
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Harry Bulpit

Thursday would suggest overwise.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Hi Harry. Don’t look just at the number of SNP MPs. Look deeper at the actual vote share in each constituency. More people voted for other parties than the SNP.

Jo Swinson lost her seat by a hundred or so votes. Hardly the landslide the SNP want people to believe.

They had 55 MPs in 2015, down to 37 in 2017, and I think 47 now? Topsy turvy stuff.

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

Fair enough. My apologies.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Harry! No need to apologise mate. Just trying to reassure.

david russell
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david russell

Just to be clear SNP got a bigger %age than the Tories, on a higher turnout and a much higher %age of seats. If that isn’t a mandate for the SNP in Scotland then the Tories, and no UK government ever, has or has had a mandate for anything. Same election, same rules. If Tories got a landslide and massive majority then the SNP’s was bigger.

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

That video of Nikki celebrating Swinson’s defeat. Is it just me or was that done with just a little too much enthusiasm? Seems an obvious point but we would need to ensure we repatriated the nuclear weapons.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

That, would be a problem, as in where to store them with comparable levels of security that Coulport has.

C Jones
Guest
C Jones

Milford Haven in West Wales would welcome them. They’d need to spend a large amount of money to re-make the underground bunkers, but the geology of the area would work. It’s a deep water port and has easy access to the western approaches.

Biggest problem I can see is that it’s also a CNG port so has massive tankers going in and out daily which would need careful coordination.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

we’ve done nuclear disposal to death, how come the u.s has managed to totally scrap 1o of their retired submarines and we haven’t? what do they do that we can’t?

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

Couldn’t we just do what America did with Guantanamo Bay and just keep it. Since we basically hold all the top cards in any negotiations.

Martin
Guest
Martin

No Harry the Americans had a lease in Guantanamo. England’s got no lease at Faslane. I’m guessing your English and probably never been to Faslane but it’s at the top of a Fiord which is accessed through a river deep inside the middle of Scotland. I think its beyond the resources of a small country like England to attempt to occupy the entire Strathclyde region not to mention the damage a country like England that can neither feed nor fuel itself would suffer as a result of the international sanctions from illegally occupying another country. That being said the Scottish… Read more »

Barry White
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Barry White

For your information the armaments depot at Ernesettle used to store nuclear weapons (i admit it was not missiles but nuclear depth charges) And that being on the outskirts of a city of 300000 Plus Devonport was the home or one of the homes of the nucleared powered sub fleet before basing them all in Faslane just to try and stop the women moaning Also Devonport refits and refuels the missile subs So it would seem to me that its a case of finding a suitable base similar to Coleport down south or maybe Pembroke to construct a new base… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Hi Barry.

Ernsettle had occurred to me too. It is partially inside a hill, like Coulport, next to the water ( for a new EHJ ) and has a rail link.

Yes Devonport is the obvious choice for the SSN’s, for the reasons you outline.

Andy P
Guest
Andy P

Getting bombers into and out of Guz is tricky with tides etc, its no easy feat compared to the deep water of the Clyde. I’d guess it would cost a fortune to make it deep enough but I could be wrong.

Barry White
Guest
Barry White

Andy
If thats the case
How do they get in and out to be refitted and refueled

Gfor
Guest
Gfor

They are in ballast with no missiles or other certain bits on them before they make the passage from the Clyde.

Andy P
Guest
Andy P

Very gingerly Barry and as said by Gfor, as lightly as possible and when the tides are right. Quite narrow windows as I recall.

Barry White
Guest
Barry White

I think you seem to have read my post wrong
I never said Base them in Plymouth if you read on you will see i said the bases for the missile subs should be somewhere south (Cornwall perhaps) or Pembroke
All other subs based at Plymouth

Harold
Guest
Harold

You can forget putting your nuclear garbage in Cornwall. They mentioned that several years ago and I joined the massive ptotest against it. Stick the things up the Thames if you really want them

Andy P
Guest
Andy P

Barry I was replying to your second post about how they got in and out of Guz to be refitted and refuelled. Thankfully I only had a limited time on bombers (1 patrol) so didn’t take one in or out of Guz but have been down there when mates were taking one out of refit and as I recall a LOT of things have to be right. The submarine refits should never have left Rosyth, it was perfect but as ever, politics got in the way.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

the hooray henry’s archers would have to come back,for naval service to lend their mighty presence to the security of the area

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

i went to faslane, and its an utter dump. one the day i went it was closed. its not the deepest part of the u.k if the russians operate in u.k sovereign waters with such impunity, i’d suggest the towing of our unwanted submarines cluttering up devonport and rosyth into russian waters and sinking them there.

700 Glengarried Men
Guest
700 Glengarried Men

Andy r I live a couple of miles from there and the picture you paint doesnt resonate with me .Faslane only closes the main gates during CND protests and uses another gate to service entrance and exit, it operates 24hrs a day 7 days a week

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

repatriate every part of the defence organisation beneath the border.

Martin
Guest
Martin

support for independence was running at 35% when Cameron came to power and its now polling over 50% consistently. With Boris in the numbers just keep going up. Maybe people in England like a bunch of Eton educated Toffs ruling them but people in Scotland have had enough. Also remember its not just the SNP that are pro independence the Green Party are also. We had a good run for 300 years and achieved many great things together but England decided to go another way as did Wales. Scotland and NI want to stay in the EU so seems fair… Read more »

Shane Ramshaw
Guest
Shane Ramshaw

Had enough of what?

David
Guest
David

Good point Martin. Being English, i’d like to see Scotland go independent. Not because I believe either of us would benefit but because i’m sick of the potential for years of Sturgeon and the (admittedly small group of Scott’s) blaming everything on England as a national obsession. I think it’s time to move on and the prospect of holding a referendum every five years until Sturgeon gets her dream is not one that I believe is in the national interest of either Scotland or rUK. Sturgeon has made it clear (perversely) that they want independence from the UK but want… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

boot them out of the six nations rugby as well.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

england built the empire, it would utterly dominate a new kingdom. england wales and ireland, would get along swimmingly without scotland. the scots wouldn’t be long coming back to westminster for a loan, because ‘nikki and her fellow cretins won’t have a clue about how to run ( a new belgium)

Sean
Guest
Sean

The SNP only got 45% of the popular vote.
It would need >50% of the popular vote to win a referendum.

The SNP are deflecting the news ahead of Alex Salmond’s trials next year.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

what is it about the S.N.P obsession with fish as a party leaders? they’ve had a salmon, now they’ve got a sturgeon, what next a herring(a red one probably )

Steve
Guest
Steve

Better to look at the last vote 55/45, which is very close. If the SNP gets another vote, it’s too tight to call and I suspect with the policitical weight they have now and Brexit, the chances are independence will be voted for.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

to allow the scots to break up the union, not that scotland had a musket held their head when they signed the bill of union then the people of england, wales and n.ireland should have a say the last referendum cost the u.k £1oo million+so, the next bill should go to scotland. scotland? good riddance.

Johnny
Guest
Johnny

The SNP had less than 50% of the vote, food for thought

maurice10
Guest
maurice10

The SNP needs to take care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater! Have they truly costed independents? The lead up to a second vote (whenever that is) could drag on its economy, with people south of the border changing holiday plans to elsewhere in the UK? I know a few friends who have expressed doubts. The possible withdrawal of naval shipbuilding and the definite closure of the Barnet Formula funding, could have a knock-on effect on Scottish household budgets. The possible closure of Faslane would mean the loss of thousands of jobs in the Western Highlands, and… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

what would the cost be for the cancellation of the navy contracts with the clyde?

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

and would any other country want to deal with yards of idle, ill skilled, lazy shipbuilders who take years to build a patrol boat. remember portsmouth built the worlds first battleship dreadnought in under a calendar yea, and that was with rivets!!

MattW
Guest
MattW

1.2 million voted for SNP out of the 5.5 million people in Scotland. It was approximately a 66% turn out from memory which is 3,630,000 voters. This equates to roughly 33% voted SNP (assuming my maths is working this morning)

Pete
Guest
Pete

You need to back out @1million + under 18

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

thursday is gone, the next day is history

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

You’re not the other Mike then! Good to know many Scots value the union with their fellow Brits. Most of the English do too I hope.

Martin
Guest
Martin

The blessed Union, Most people in England don’t even know what it is and it had never even been referenced in popular culture until 2014.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

And yet, we all learned of it in School Martin. Depends what lefty teachers brainwashed you I guess.

Pete
Guest
Pete

And how many of us were taught of Scotlands role in the ’30 years war’ ? A history kept silent.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

or taught that scotland joined the union because it was so poor.after its failed effort to establish an empire of its own which failed so badly hat all the wealth that scotland had was lost with it.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

good one danni

Gavin Gordon
Guest
Gavin Gordon

As with countless other UK residents in England, I have recent Scottish ancestry (some of you may have assumed that). I have also numbered vehemently patriotic born-and-bred Scots among my aquaintance, who happen to live down here i.e. because its the UK. They are proud of that together with the influence their country has had on the UK**. As such I remain puzzled by the view that some currently resident Scots hold that they have been really hard done by within the Union. Examples might include: the Union was a Stuart objective; the empire was built by them; many of… Read more »

Harold
Guest
Harold

I have read that several supporters of indy are English and others living in Scotland. It’s up to them eally. Their call. I wou;dn’t blame them at all.

Cam
Guest
Cam

Well said Mike, people always confuse the SNP with the scottish as a whole!

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

so they should treated as the S.N.P deserves, treated as a joke, and denied the oxygen of publicity

Cymbeline
Guest
Cymbeline

Harry, I think Scottish waters account for about 90% of the total UK value of some £20billion. Having said that, North Sea oil is running down and oil prices vary to some degree, I dont see how you could plan a budget on something so volatile. Also, take into the account arguments from the likes of The Shetlands whoc ould claim a majority of those fields are actually in their waters.

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

the oil wouldn’t be divided by sea, but rather by ownership. The UK owns the oil and not Scotland, therefore an independent Scotland would receive its oil share based on population. therefore around 10%.

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

Not sure is going to matter Harry. Why should Boris lift a finger to help the SNP after the abuse they gave him over Brexit. Boris should get two terms (Labour recovery won’t be that quick). Maybe if the SNP attitude changed there might be a referendum in 2035 and then it will be ten years making everything happen. The oil will be gone or surplus to requirements.

Colin Miller
Guest
Colin Miller

as a proud Scot who opposes independence on every level…
even I say your interpretation of where the oil goes is pants!

an independent country has the right to the water that surround it, it does not magically up and move to another country…

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

It’s nothing to do with the water. It’s about the resources under it which belong to the United Kingdom not Scotland. In all fairness dividing it up by the sea is the most practical and recognised way of doing it. But dividing it by population is also a legally justified if not complicated way of doing it. Which we could do since we hold all the top cards in any negotiation. If the EU has taught us anything it’s not to negotiate fair.

Pete
Guest
Pete

Spot on.

Martin
Guest
Martin

You do know that the sea is already divided into England and Scotland right? Your not that badly informed are you? You know this thing called the union means that there are different legal systems for Scotland and England and have been for 300 years which means that the sea is divided already based on legal systems?

Martin
Guest
Martin

that’s why Scotland already has its own OPV’s to patrol the EEZ all the way out into the Atlantic. The English Government (DEFRA) outsources this to the Royal Navy which is what the River Batch 1’s are used for in the fisheries protection squadron while the Scottish government has its own three OPV’s

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

Once again its not the sae. Its the resources below it.

Pete
Guest
Pete

Harry. There is clear UN / international law and precedent on this. Martin is spot on. By same argument Scotland would have 15% access to resources in the balance of the Uk

Pete
Guest
Pete

Really… I feel you dont understand the concept of an Exclusive Economic Zone below the surface of the sea. Im not a nationalist but the economic royalties would stay north… And those numbers dont currently contribute to economic balance sheet accredited to Scotland.. Another major revenue stream would be potentially export tax on @1billion bottles of whisky leaving Scotland annually… Again revenue not currently accredited to scotland due to the consumer pays approach to alcohol excise applied by HMG. A basic bottle of Scotch costs about #1 to make, #1 to store and #1 for advertising and distribution. The balance… Read more »

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

I do have an understanding of what EEZ is, although i also understand their negotiable. Now my “theory” comes from an article i read back in 2014. Been spending all night trying to find it, with no success. Although I’m begging to think that perhaps it wasn’t the most well informed article. So i apologies for my rather ill informed statement. Although even if Scotland received 90% of the oil fields as Steve points out it isn’t exactly that beneficial for Scotland.

700 Glengarried Men
Guest
700 Glengarried Men

How much tax is placed on exporting goods I thought the receiving country placed the tax therefore gets the revenue Scotland would get the tax the owner makes selling it

Pete
Guest
Pete

Hey 700.. Govts have the option of import duties, export duties, consumption tax or production tax. I would simply imagine that with a global market leading brand Scotland would tax production a couple of quid a bottle and take that benefit rather than allowing other governments to take all the fiscal benefit.

Steve R
Guest
Steve R

Even if Scotland had all that North Sea oil, it’s an export that will continue to dwindle. In coming decades we will see a huge decline in petrol and diesel powered vehicles as much of the world moves to electric. Give it 50 years and there will barely be a petrol or diesel car or lorry on the road! Same for much of Europe, Japan etc. USA will take longer but eventually they will too, as will China. This will lead to a massive decline in the international sales of crude oil. The Middle East’s economy will crumble as their… Read more »

The Artist Formerly known as Los Pollos Chicken
Guest
The Artist Formerly known as Los Pollos Chicken

Harry , I realise that you prob don’t look to deeply into this matter but I’m getting really sick and tired of English folk who know squat about what the crack is up here.let me explain – 1-It’s only the snp who are hell bent on this , they are just 1 political party 2- the polls don’t show any increase in appetite for independence 3- if you add up the votes of the pro union parties at the election they are 55% so more than the snp votes 4- many people voted snp as they don’t want brexit –… Read more »

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

Id like to take your word for it, and very much would like to believe that Scotland wishes to remain part of the union. The issue is that it seems that British politicians only want to please to groups of people. Londerners and Scotts and frankly a lot of English people are getting feed up of it.

Colin
Guest
Colin

So are Scots, it’s just the media is so full of BS. The sun ( I know scum but) in England says let’s get out of Europe urgently the sun in Scotland says we need to stay in Europe and leave the UK. The bbc in Scotland will do anything so the snp don’t say their bias, for instance the BBC Scotland channel it’s pants! But it’s costing us all millions to keep a few idiots who think they are William Wallace or Bonny Prince Charlie happy! If the message gets out stop listening to the media we would work… Read more »

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

Very true. Thanks for the insight.

The Artist Formerly known as Los Pollos Chicken
Guest
The Artist Formerly known as Los Pollos Chicken

Colin Dunno if you know this but all the regional BBC channels are pants and there is a lot of them and they all cost money .In particular BBC Wales oh and the utter drivel that is BBC oxford oh nearly forgot BBC one south that’s utter dog💩 good try though 😂

Colin Miller
Guest
Colin Miller

I know what you are meaning yes they are all pants but no they are not the same. BBC oxford is similar to the original BBC Scotland, both of these (unless I am mistaken) show regional info on BBC One.

what I am pointing out is a complete separate BBC channel in Scotland. Have a look here, even if you change the location you still get the separate Scottish channel

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/guide

The Artist Formerly known as Los Pollos Chicken
Guest
The Artist Formerly known as Los Pollos Chicken

Anyways man we are just heading down a never ending spat of inconsequential nonsense way off topic we Cana lol agree the BBC is utter 💩is nothing but bias propaganda and should be scrapped along with the rest of the media outlets and invite real journalists who’s job it is to INFORM the public as opposed to FORMING public opinion which I’m afraid to say these cheeky wee monkeys have done a blinding job of doing the latter to some folks in this site

The Artist Formerly known as Los Pollos Chicken
Guest
The Artist Formerly known as Los Pollos Chicken

Bro no need to be sceptical , take my word for it I as I’ve maybe mentioned before I’m a Scot and I live here ,and the election results /figures are facts with regard % .Frankly it’s laughable when I hear some of you guys getting all uppity over what is basically London centric media driven hysteria from down your way, however it’s not reality……. so relax man kick back and get back to discussing what is the whole point of this site U.K. military matters . I for one will be extremely disappointed if Bojo doesn’t up the MoD… Read more »

Colin Miller
Guest
Colin Miller

I live in Scotland too, a small village called Glasgow……

I just don’t like people getting information where the whole of scotland is on the march to freedom, which is wrong….

anyhow, hopefully the new ships will be pushed to be built faster..

Mike
Guest
Mike

And the Greens, and many Scottish Labour Party members.

Andy P
Guest
Andy P

Agree with you ‘The Artist….’, this site can work itself up into a frothing rage about Scottish independence and its a pity as most of it is ill informed gibberish based on opinion and wishful thinking. Plenty malice thrown in too, quite telling how some of our southern neighbours view us. I mean I know the internet is 90% forums for people working themselves up into a fervour, and pornography (where they’re working themselves up into a different kind of fervour) but even on articles that have sod all to do with Scotland/ship building/independence we see the same rants, conflating… Read more »

Expat
Guest
Expat

TAFKALPC…. Also Labours collapse was throughout the UK for those who want a left of centre government in Scotland the SNP was obvious go to party.

ChariotRider
Guest
ChariotRider

Hi Expat, Good point. I’m no expert of Scottish politics (we only only see the very limited headines south of the boarder it seems) but even with that limited information it is possible to understand that the SNP is a centre left party. Scotland has a very strong centre left tradition so with the Labour Party going all middle class socialist with strong unilateral pacifist tendencies the SNP was an obvious place to put your X, even if you do not agree with Independence. In England there are still only 2 real contenders for government. I believe [and more than… Read more »

JD
Guest
JD

HARRY,
YOU ARE SO RIGHT, JUST CLOSE THE cLYDE, MOVE SHIPBUILDING SOUTH AND THEN TREAT THE SCOTS AS eu CITIZENS AS THAT IS WHAT THEY WOULD BE AS SOON AS NS GETS HER WAY

Harry Bulpit
Guest
Harry Bulpit

Unfortunately for them they won’t be EU citizens. Even if they leave before we leave the EU, they would still be a new nation so won’t have membership. They also won’t meet EU standards of having a defecite of 3%, since theirs is 7%. So no Scotland will be neither in the EU or the UK.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

if scotland were to go, i doubt the other nations in the union would be overly bothered.england is, and always will be, the geographical powerbase

Airborne
Guest
Airborne

Pretty much a dead cert they won’t be building much, but I’m sure Xenophobic Mike will raise his head and give us a lecture!

Mike
Guest
Mike

I’m no xenophobe. After all, you voted to leave the EU. Xenophobic or what? You voted Tory (likely to cut your defence spending) Xenophobic or what? An independent Scotland would need only a small navy of patrol vessels in my opinion but I know that former RN RAF and Army officers who are now members of the SNP will have the matter under consideration. As for enemies – who exactly? England? Eire manages well enough. The most recent opinion poll looks good. A Survation Poll carried out on 11 December indicates 46% for and 47% against independence. 7% are unsure.… Read more »

Mike
Guest
Mike

I’m no xenophobe. After all, you voted to leave the EU. Xenophobic or what? You voted Tory (likely to cut your defence spending) Xenophobic or what? An independent Scotland would need only a small navy of patrol vessels in my opinion but I know that former RN RAF and Army officers who are now members of the SNP will have the matter under consideration. As for enemies – who exactly? England? Eire manages well enough. The most recent opinion poll looks good. A Survation Poll carried out on 11 December indicates 46% for and 47% against independence. 7% are unsure.… Read more »

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

I suspect Mike that for the next 5 years Boris is going to be focused on those that voted for him – he has a lot to do. Yes if you get polls with a thumping majority say 60%+ it might tempt him to lance the boil but none of this 52-48 nonsense. I sense that our attention is going to drift away from Westminster and we will just be interested in seeing if Boris does what he said and/or Labour gets its act together or disintegrates completely. We will focus again on defence and discuss some kid making UAVs… Read more »

Daniel
Guest
Daniel

I don’t see how you are in any position to make assumptions about what any of us voted for at various times. For your information I neither voted for Brexit or for the Tories. The difference between you and I, however, is that I am willing to accept the democratic will of the rest of my country instead of trying to jump ship because a vote didn’t go my way. And by “my country” I mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland with all its constituent parts. Scotland is in my opinion, along with England, Wales and… Read more »

David Barry
Guest
David Barry

I don’t think the EU vote was at all fair. However, Boris has his majority and we are leaving the EU.

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

I think we have been here before Mike. It’s great that you are passionate about your cause, but, stop for a moment and take stock about how an independent Scotland would find itself.. Now the UK election is out of the way, we ( that’s all of us, like it or not) are leaving the EU. If (that’s a big if) Boris allows you another referendum, it won’t be until the withdrawal has been completed, say two years from now for good measure. So it’s 2023, Scotland gets its referendum, let’s focus in on the economic facts. No1, Scotland already… Read more »

James
Guest
James

Mike are you suggesting Labour would have increased defence spending?

Martin
Guest
Martin

I think I would rather be in a small Scotland with a small navy and part of the largest nation block on the planet (EU) than a medium sized country with a dwindling military only able to provide support for US operations carried out in US interest. Cameron ended Britain and the British military in 2010 when he let Osbourne run defence spending. Such a hollowed out force (literally aircraft carriers with no plains) is not worth investing 40 billion a year into. Better to realise and accept the limitations and be a small country like Denmark or Norway

Airborne
Guest
Airborne

Ah the aircraft carrier with no “plains” nonsense! Just by saying that, negates your whole post as it’s such a repeated and incorrect analogy of building up a carrier capability that it shows a total lack of military knowledge and understanding.

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

Airborne, I am sure the carriers will have at least one plain in the workshop for work on the captain’s teak finished launch, assuming they still have such things!

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

As already discussed Martin, you are taking a blind leap of faith. No guarantee that the EU will accept you, even if they do, it could be many years before you are accepted, especially if Macron had anything to do with it. He wants to pause any additional membership until the EU sorts itself out. I wouldn’t be surprised if Boris does a backroom deal to block Scottish membership of the EU as part of trade negotiations. The EU don’t need another country to carry and would far prefer you remain within the Union. Such skulduggery is par of the… Read more »

Airborne
Guest
Airborne

Wow what a xenophobic rant, with added froth!

Rob
Guest
Rob

Using the term ‘Xenophobia’ in the context of the EU referendum is a rather lazy way of trying to explain the result. Yes there are a minority of people who are like that in any country, including Scotland. After all the Scots who are anti English are Xenophobes by definition. The result came about due to a myriad of issues, not least a sense of trying to stick two fingers up at the Establishment in times where the gap between the rich and poor is widening. Also because the EU has turned into something no-one voted for, rightly or wrongly.… Read more »

Airborne
Guest
Airborne

Yaaaaaaawn

Mike
Guest
Mike

PS – 18 vessels are not under construction. Several have been built and delivered. Several have not even been ordered!

Airborne
Guest
Airborne

Damn you can’t stop can you xenophobic Mike!

Jason Holmes
Guest
Jason Holmes

More people DIDN’T vote for SNP than voted for them in this election. I know that non SNP voters doesn’t necessarily mean a vote to remain, but it seems likely it would be another vote in favour of remaining. First-past the post means they get what seems to be very disproportionate representation in government, 45% of votes and 48/59 seats…I can’t see this carrying on for long.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Quite. The exact opposite of UKIP in 2015 with neat 4 million votes and 1 MP, a defector at that.

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

Scotland currently doesn’t have the numbers to win a referendum (45% or less based on SNP votes at the election). If that changes for whatever reason I’m a democrat and think they we should start planning their exit. Before they make up their mind though I think we should learn the lessons of Brexit and specify in writing the details of the withdrawal agreement and the future relationship. I would also want to know how they intend to defend their country with a third of the land mass and 9% of the population. That needs to satisfy the rest of… Read more »

Daniel
Guest
Daniel

I understand your points but I think we should be careful to avoid using phrasing like “Scotland currently doesn’t have the numbers to win”. Characterising the SNP and their pro-independence supporters as “Scotland” would only serve to creata an “us and them” mentality which is exactly what the SNP would want.

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

Humble apologies Daniel – point well taken.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I hope they would not build a single vessel.

Pull out of Faslane. Invite the Clyde work force south where the work is. Insist they take their share of the national debt, or have no claim to any assets.

Dealing with security would be a problem. Scots form a valued part of the SS, the SIS and GCHQ, and would need to be completely removed. Same with SF and Defence Intelligence.

They can then apply to rejoin NATO and the EU, losing their recently acquired sovereignty they crave, by merging with our continental neighbours but splitting from fellow Brits. Strange.

Johnny
Guest
Johnny

I agree 1000000%, sturgeon (Jimmy Cranky) always seems to forget about the Barnet formula. VERY CONVENIENT!

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Let her. It is the people themselves I hope remember it. Many of us English, myself included, see ourselves as British, and I would be devastated if my fellow Britons, the Scots, left.

You cannot compare this situation with the EU and Brexit. The EU has morphed into something the EEC we joined was not, and we never voted on it til 2016. The union is over 300 years old between BRITISH people.

David Barry
Guest
David Barry

No like button.

English shipyards must be rubbing their hands in glee.

However, re-siting the Deterrent will be a problem; then there is the problem of the de-commissioned subs that will have to be taken under tow.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

SNP want a share of assets, and the debt. Well, they can have some of those.

Barry White
Guest
Barry White

Daniele Mandelli
” Invite the Clyde work force south where the work is”
That is one thing i totally dissagree with as it would mean all their wages going back to Scotland helping to support a country that turned its back on the union

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Maybe Barry. I would think – one, some of that workforce are not Scots but English and Welsh, and two, if they are the experts at what they do what choice do we have?

David Barry
Guest
David Barry

They’ll have to pay rent 😉

Bob
Guest
Bob

No, no. No more ships built Clyde or Rosyth post independence.

It must all be relocated to places like Teeside – ensuring that forward thinking voters benefit from government contracts before socialist cartels like the Mersey.

Colin Miller
Guest
Colin Miller

there is a lot of discussion taking place regarding the Scots leaving as a proud Scot, I have no intention of allowing the SNP taking me out of the UK. The ability of the SNP is to divert attention away from Scotland to Westminster for their mistakes is why this is happening. the SNP has some wonderful ideas of a future military in scotland For example the SNP post independance plan to use our cadet forces (12-20yo kids) as part of the front line defence of scotland.. as stated in a written response by the then first minister A. Salmond… Read more »

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

I tend to agree. I feel a need to get back to standard politics and let the politicians get on with it. No more referendums etc.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

They cannot become the norm. We had two. Both results should be respected, and move on.

Sadly groups of lefty teenagers with no respect for anything rioting in London, and Woke Celebs who never leave the London bubble to go beyond the M25 to see what the country actually thinks think differently.

Let them. A few hundred versus tens of millions.

Herodotus
Guest

Come on Daniele….you chastise me for the odd generalisation whilst engaging in yourself. I am certainly not a teenager and I don’t live in London. As do millions of people who wanted a 2nd referendum on Brexit. Remember that more people voted for parties that supported a 2nd referendum than this sleazebag government!

Barry Larking
Guest
Barry Larking

Well said. Voting Labour or Tory never achieved half as much as the pressure of the S.N.P. has so there’s a the reason they do well; bread and butter issues matter more. As for full independence the first question should be ‘Why take the risk? Especially when you could more easily soak the English for more cash!

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

Now I’ve had my rant (I quite enjoyed that!) the answer is Scotland is unlikely to decide to leave and if they do they will be building ships of their own to defend their country. It should be a condition of leaving.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

The site would improve by about 100% if it switched the comments off.

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

Not sure you are right there Steve. I think it adds an interesting dimension. Yes sure we would still have the articles however people’s viewpoints on the subject matter can be quite illuminating. The is no obligation to read the comments.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

The comments are the best thing about UKDJ!!

Without them UKDJ is just another defence site.

So many characters, some you agree with, some you don’t. Some you loathe, some I’d love to meet and buy them a pint.

And you learn from the posts, not just the articles.

Martin
Guest
Martin

I think people in Scotland would be pretty happy for ship building to go to England in exchange for independence and a rapid return to the EU. Its a very small amount of jobs relative to the size of the Scottish economy. That being said there is no way BAE can switch production out of Glasgow any time soon. The T26 are already contracted and Barrow which is BAE’s only other facility is full for decades with Dreadnought SSBN’s. Cammel Laird might be able to be brought up to speed but it will take years. No Point in looking at… Read more »

Shane Ramshaw
Guest
Shane Ramshaw

I think the EU (and NATO for that matter) have made it abundantly clear there would be nothing rapid about Scotlands’ return to the EU (or NATO). There is a process to be followed and it is a slow one.

I also find it rather amusing that the Scottish plan for independence appears to be to tell other countries what they are going to do/provide Scotland and poof, it happens. It rather ignores the fact these other countries and organizations may actually have different ideas.

Amir Taheri
Guest
Amir Taheri

I would be very surprised if the contracts with BAE did not contain some form of diplomatic clause, designed specifically for this type of issue.

Alan Reid
Guest
Alan Reid

Martin “I think people in Scotland would be pretty happy for ship building to go to England in exchange for independence and a rapid return to the EU”. Your comments are not correct; I feel you’ve made a number of false assumptions – the SNP does not speak for the majority of people in Scotland. I do agree ship-building is a small part of the Scottish economy (which is predominately services based). However, we do not wish to lose another industry, nor countenance the loss of jobs. In addition, many of us feel British, and have an emotional connection with… Read more »

geoff
Guest
geoff

Just to summarise -45% of the electorate voted for pro Independence parties in the election-i.e. the SNP and Greens and 55% for pro Union-Tories,Labour and Libdems. In addition, even Nicola said that not all of those who supported the SNP wanted independence. Rather they saw the SNP as better custodians of Scotland’s interests but within the UK. Jo Swinson lost her seat to 20 000 SNP voters despite the Unionist vote being 32 000! OK so that is first past the post as in the rest of the UJ but when we talk of a one issue vote then there… Read more »

Martin
Guest
Martin

We did not even mention the T31 program from Rosyth. That’s probably a better fit for a yard in England than T26. Also the prospect of two T26 to be built for NZ at some point its highly likely that T26 will be built on the Clyde well into the 2030’s. With an economy smaller than Italy I just can’t see England maintaining nuclear weapons and much of a navy in the longer term. English politics like American seems to be increasingly isolationist . Moving ship building and nuclear weapons out of Scotland will cost hundreds of billions and Boris… Read more »

Graeme
Guest
Graeme

Italy has a gdp of 2 trillion dollars, the UK has one of three trillion. Scotland’s share of the economy is a little over 8% of the overall total. If NI and Scotland leave, it would have an even lower deficit than it does now. E&W are certainly not smaller than Italy, and their economy is in the doldrums, like much of the Eurozone. Scottish nationalists seem utterly deluded about reality. There isn’t a chance of future navy contracts going to Scotland because A) it would mean the UK government wasn’t investing in a strategically vital domestic industry providing jobs… Read more »

Rob
Guest
Rob

England and Wales, lets not forget that.

ChariotRider
Guest
ChariotRider

Yeh, I had noticed that Wales was not getting a fair mention in this thread…

Pete
Guest
Pete

Hi Graham. Im a scot but not a nationalist. However, there are two key exise generators that currently bypass the scottsh accounts published by the treasury.

1. Export Tax on 1 billion + bottles of scotch leaving Scotland each year. (currently ultimate consumer pays and costs to produce and distribute are only @ #3 per bottle. Balance of price is consumer tax of some sort.)
2. Oil and gas royalties. While these will not be significant for 60 million people in coming decades they would be very significant for 5million people for decades to come (i work in that industry)

P

Expat
Guest
Expat

However. on point 2 Scotland has declared a climate emergency so how does it reconcile continuing oil and gas production when its saying that very production is a threat to the environment. Even Saudi is selling off the Crown Jewells (Aramco)and diversifying away from oil and gas. But Scotland real problem is what’s going on south of the boarder, if the rUK has lower income tax and corporation tax its likely to see business relocate south of the boarder. So on point 2 even scotch may not be safe, it could be bottled in Scotland then ‘sold’ at break even… Read more »

Pete
Guest
Pete

Its not ideal i acceot but nirth sea oil is, as oil goes, got higher auality properties and much if the bye products of norrh sea oil goes into lubricanirs, nylons, plastics etc (hence the high premium for Brent oil over usa WTI prices and the gas, which is a signifiant volume in North Sea is a much cleaner burn for powerstation use relative to oil and coal and will be part of a balanced energy portfolio for decades to come. Im not a nationalist… I believe uk is stronger together…. Saying Scotland Scitland cant go it alone is devisive… Read more »

Andy P
Guest
Andy P

Great post Pete.

I cringe when I see some of the ‘shoes and socks off arithmetic’ being used to say why an independent Scotland would be doooomed. Like you, its not something I crave but small countries do manage and some have far less resources than Scotland. To suggest somehow Scotland would wither on its own is just the kind of rhetoric that would goad people to prove them wrong. Not that I think the world and his dog are sweating on the to-ing and fro-ing of us intellectual stalwarts on here……

Expat
Guest
Expat

Pete not saying Scotland can’t survive just saying its economics will be heavily influenced buy its neighbour. I think you’d acknowledge Scotland would need to set higher taxes than rUK, its already doing that on income tax. Its not economic scaremongering just stating how global business works these days. Lets take a UK example, say a UK bases car company buys the drive chain from another country the tax on profit is higher in said country so the company sells the drive chain at 1% over cost (1% profit so very little taxable profit and therefore limited tax revenue) to… Read more »

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

Pete, I hope you sell more Scotch than that. Tax is about £10 a bottle I think be is normally taken in the country where it is sold. You should be well placed to say about oil and gas – is production now only about a third of its peak?

I am hoping & believe that Scotland is way beyond your two points however I see two things firstly there does not seem to be the appetite for independence some would have us believe and secondly there is no way Boris will permit it certainly in his first term.

geoff
Guest
geoff

Sorry bout spellos

Amir Taheri
Guest
Amir Taheri

I think that Scotland could vote for independence within the next 5 years. I don’t think they ought to, but ah well. But I suspect many Scots appear to have missed the moral of the story from Brexit… you cannot have your cake and eat it too. So many people thought we could leave the EU, but that the EU would give us everything we wanted – all the benefits of membership but with zero responsibility. It doesn’t work that way and we found that out the hard way. Realistically, what does that mean for Scotland if they choose independence?… Read more »

Frank62
Guest
Frank62

There’s plenty of communities around the RUK that have had their RN shipbuilding industries removed, mainly to Scottish yards. I’d expect they’d love to see that reversed if Scotland left us.

Geoff
Guest
Geoff

Considering the build quality of HMS Forth, maybe it should move anyway….

Alan Reid
Guest
Alan Reid

Hi Geoff, Maybe you should factor into your considerations two 65, 000 ton aircraft-carriers, also built largely by the Clyde work-force.

Paulfliessouth
Guest
Paulfliessouth

Supporters of the Union need to reflect on the implications of the election result and see it for what it was; a tactical victory for the SNP…but a strategic defeat nonetheless. They went into the GE on a ticket to stop Boris (fail), stop Brexit (fail), support a minority Corbyn Government in exchange for a vote on Scexit (fail) and secure a majority of votes (also fail). What is important is that we have a Conservative Government that will block a Scexit vote for the next five years and there is nothing that Ms Sturgeon can do about it. Even… Read more »

Steve R
Guest
Steve R

As a proud Brit I think Scotland should stay in the UK. Sturgeon and the SNP have simply used Brexit as an excuse for another independence referendum; had the vote gone Remain in 2016 I’m sure she would have tried to find another excuse. I honestly believe that Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are stronger united. United, we will far better cope with changes once we leave the EU. I did vote remain in the referendum in 2016, I respect the result although I do believe we will be worse off once we leave. However, I believe that the… Read more »

ChariotRider
Guest
ChariotRider

Hi Steve,

Your point about the EU not wanting to admit a potential net receiver is a good one and one that is not often mentioned. Many people seem to think that the EU would welcome Scotland back without question, especially given the scale of Scottish waters (fishing and oil), but as you say it is not that clear cut.

Leaving the Union and on the basis of re-joining the EU is a risk – not a certainty. I wonder how many Scottish voters have thought of that given the noise and bluster around IndyRef2…

Andy P
Guest
Andy P

ChariotRider, you’re right that nothing is certain and there would be a lot of horse trading to be done in any request to join by an indy Scotland. One thing to bear in mind is the egos involved, there might be some in the EU who would see it as a bit of a victory if some of the UK applied to join the EU. All spit balling on my part and hopefully it won’t be an issue. As for the “noise and bluster around IndyRef2…” that’s exactly what it is and its aimed at the SNP’s core support. The… Read more »

ChariotRider
Guest
ChariotRider

Andy P,

Egos! An interesting point. All too easy to think politicians make decisions based entirely on calculation…

I do kind of admire the SNP’s single minded sense of purpose and the fact that they are, as you say, well organised to achieve their ambition and momentum is a powerful tool.

Andy P
Guest
Andy P

ChariotRider, its a pet theory of mine but I think our egos (in the true sense ie sense of self) is massively underrated as one of our biggest influences. People bend themselves into all sorts of compromises to fit boxes that they see themselves as fitting. We ‘need’ others to see and appreciate it too. Funnily enough, we’re pretty good at spotting it in others (virtue signalling etc), just not so good at seeing it in ourselves, egos eh ? As for the SNP, while they are good at whipping up an angry mob, I’d like to see opposition parties… Read more »

ChariotRider
Guest
ChariotRider

Hi Andy P,

Pet theory or not I suspect you have a good point. Ego is often seen as a flaw so it is more about admitting weakness in ourselves rather than recognising a reasonable / human trait. As such we tend to find that a challenge and certainly not something any politician would admit to…

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

If I had a crystal ball (which I don’t) I would anticipate Government policy post Brexit attracting investment into the Northern Powerhouse. The Barnet formula will be changed to work on regional rather than National lines. The SNP will be politely ignored and will either begin to run Scotland properly or give up power to a party who will. This maybe the beginning of the end for the SNP. Shipbuilding is likely to change in its nature. A natural opportunity to find a new permanent home? No further referendums are likely unless something substantial changes. I think it might be… Read more »

Sean
Guest
Sean

NO.

Helions
Guest
Helions

On the subject of shipbuilding. Not too sure of how effective a dated ex-Soviet design will be but it can be touted as proof the PLAN is the equal of the USN (not) and to intimidate its neighbors – Taiwan comes to mind…

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7800999/Chinas-second-aircraft-carrier-Shandong-enters-service-amid-tensions-Taiwan-US.html

Cheers

Rob
Guest
Rob

This is actually a very misleading article. Firstly the T26 frigates are under construction in Glasgow, you can’t just pack up a half finished programme and transport it south. Secondly the only dry dock large enough for the QEC is at Rosyth; building a new one somewhere else would be hugely expensive. Thirdly the infrastructure for a new fleet submarine base would take several years to build. I am no fan of Scottish independence but these points need to be looked at realistically. The future of RN builds in Scottish yards is therefore quite secure for the short to medium… Read more »

700 Glengarried Men
Guest
700 Glengarried Men

Rob ships partially built could be completed to float then towed or placed on a barge and moved, to be completed elsewhere, skilled people could be transferred and so on however Scotland would lose the yards , and when these close it’s very hard to get them started again , I think Harrland and Wolf have maintained their dry dock which I think would be big enough for the QE class . SNP forget they would be negotiating against a United British govt unlikely to make any unnecessary concessions to an emerging Scotland

Gfor
Guest
Gfor

Rosyth is not the only dock that can take the QE class. Harland and Wolfe and a couple of others that have been covered at length on this site.

Steve Taylor
Guest
Steve Taylor

Appeasing Scotland probably has done more harm to our defence capability than anything else in the latter half of the 20th century and early 21st.

Alan Reid
Guest
Alan Reid

Steve, As a proud Scot and Brit, I’m mystified over your comments …….. “Appeasing Scotland” in the latter half of the 20th century, and 21st century? Scotland causing harm to “our” defence capability ……… Eh!?! You do realise that Scotland is a full partner in the United Kingdom? You are also aware that Scots have spilt blood and treasure in the pursuit of UK foreign policy objectives during the timescales you’ve highlighted – in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, the Gulf Wars, and Afghanistan? You also realise that a few miles from Glasgow is the biggest nuclear weapons facility in Western… Read more »

Mike
Guest
Mike

On the news this evening and I think it will have been on your BBC Radio 4 – a Minister of the Government of Scotland announced the plan is for a referendum in June 2020 (with Westminster’s permission or not) then for independence to have been achieved by June 2022. This is it folks. A Nation once again!

Right, having given a lot of time to campaigning, I must return to work before New Year.

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

I suppose this was inevitable if a little unwise. Her last throw of the dice. Things could get interesting.

Alan Reid
Guest
Alan Reid

Hi Mike, I agree – it’s time for you to return to work, and stop “winding-up”
our friends on this forum. As a fellow Scot (although not a separatist like yourself), can I suggest that you find a second chip for your other shoulder – and maybe develop a more balanced point of view.

Airborne
Guest
Airborne

More like a bag of chips mate!

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

hmm you must be Xenophobic Mike. Very amusing. Oddly I found that vaguely believable – I’m not sure that reflects well on my view of what Nicola might do to get her own way. I’m not sure you are a friend of Scotland.

HF
Guest
HF

Behind the SNP argument is the simple fact that they need this work in Scotland because they can’t actually afford independence without continued support from what the SNP are pleased to call rUK. I hasten to add that I have great sympathy with the Scots who must be completely fed up with the mess ‘old Etonians’ have created. As for the shipyards if – God forbid – if Faslane came under nuclear attack places producing warships would almost certainly be attacked, as would numerous targets in England, many near or in big cities.

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

If you are expecting a Nuclear exchange to politely respect the Scottish border I would think again. I would assume a full salvo to blow us all into the dark ages including cities, energy, pipelines, military facilities etc. One of the key things deterring this for the past 70 years is everyone’s best hope. Seems to have worked for far …

HF
Guest
HF

With respect, I am not expecting that – I’m saying exactly the opposite.

Mark B
Guest
Mark B

My misunderstanding. Perhaps when you mention English cities I got the impression that they would not target Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen. Nuclear war tends to be a scorched earth policy unless of course the enemy wants to occupy the area themselves.

HF
Guest
HF

Glad we cleared that up ! 🙂

Barry Larking
Guest
Barry Larking

The assumption is that the Scots wish for independence based on some historical notion of being controlled by England. There is no English government. There would have to be a new English government if Scotland breaks up the U.K. In fact, Scottish independence is the only way England would regain its independent government. In all other matters Scotland is a different country and governed so. The budgetary arrangements between the two countries were reformed last century by Labour under the Barnett formula because Labour’s vote went up at the time and the party wished to secure it; in 1959 there… Read more »

HF
Guest
HF

I think the Barnett formula was an attempt, among other things, was an attempt to forestall Scottish independence rather than some Tory/DUP electoral bribe. Joel Barnett himself said that it was not intended to last so long. Successive governments have been too scared to change the funding because of the boost it would give to the SNP – though Cameron’s attempt to buy off the ‘ERG’ for his political benefit has given the Nationalists a boost they could never have hoped for after the 2014 referendum.

700 Glengarried Men
Guest
700 Glengarried Men

To answer the original point it would be foolish of the RUK to build ships in Scotland , this could be the start of Boris promise to Northern England providing high skilled jobs to area suffering de-industrialisation, I live near to Faslane and its closure would devistate the local area, also the loss of over 6000 tax payers plus that in the Clyde and Rosyth yards not to mention Barnett transfers would put strain on the economy. Re oil this is a double edged sword as the uk govt could walk away leaving Scotland to pick up the massive decommissioning… Read more »

Harold
Guest
Harold

You can forget putting your nuclear garbage in Cornwall. They mentioned that several years ago and I joined the massive protest against it. Stick the things up the Thames if you really want them post Scottish independence. We don’t want your cast offs thanks!

HF
Guest
HF

Quite a few places were considered along the west coast from Cornwall, Wales and up into Scotland. I assume you’re just making a point when you suggest the Thames but even if there wasn’t the question of London the river isn’t deep enough and doesn’t provide quick access to the North Atlantic to avoid detection. If the UK was attacked it wouldn’t just be Faslane. Lots of cities have important military targets near them. The RAF command bunker at High Wycombe third on the Soviet UK target list, and the AWRE near Reading, 30 miles west of London would also… Read more »

Gfor
Guest
Gfor

Strange statement considering that there is a considerable amount of nuclear ‘garbage’ already sitting on the devon and cornwall border (and in Rosyth) in the form of decommissioned submarines.

Harold
Guest
Harold

We don’t want any more in Cornwall thanks. The last time this was threatened for Falmouth, thousands turned out in protest. You keep your nuclear rubbish your side of the River Tamar. And that’s how everyone here feels. We get enough rubbish dumped on us now.

Andy P
Guest
Andy P

Gfor, the decommissioned boats have minimal radiation, thankfully the rules are incredibly tight here in The West about half life’s and that so they sit there. Waste of good razor blades, some fantastic steel sat there doing hee haw, the nasty stuff has been long removed and buried or whatever they’re doing with it.

That’s completely different to both the working reactors and the big phallic things. They could potentially really ruin your weekend.

Gfor
Guest
Gfor

Andy P, that’s exactly the point. It isn’t buried and they are doing nothing with it to tackle the long term disposal of the boats.
It is negligence to keep putting off dealing with the boats and the waste until a later date.

andy reeves
Guest
andy reeves

no, the production rate is far too slow. i’d like to see cancellation penalties for already signed contracts, should the R.N go elsewhere, maybe the policy of ‘only built in the u.k could apply to anywhere that can deliver. should be used. the rest of the u.k owes the clyde very little its shoddiness)glued nuts and bolts and it taking years to produce a patrol ship, to me would be reasons enough as a customer to take my business elsewhere.

peter french
Guest
peter french

Sturgeon has been told ad naseum that Scottish yards would not get the work if Scotland went independent , So Nicola you cant have it both ways , youve been favoured against English yards so far not so if and when you go independent, What happens to ships in build should you go independent well i guess youll complete other than that “No Go” goodnight sweet heart.
You,ll be happier on your own not so your shipyard and Faslane workers but they,ll understand its all in the interests of Scotland or rather the political interests of Sturgeon and co