At 5,700 tonnes no one could realistically accuse the Type 31e Frigate of being a “mini frigate”, an MP has however done so.

The Arrowhead 140 design from Babcock is similar in size to the Danish Iver Huitfeldt class (that’s no accident, they’re based on this class), they are larger than the Norwegian Nansen class and around the same size as the Spanish F100 frigates.

Oh and they’re also much larger than the vessels they’re replacing, see below.

Image via Shipbucket.

Frankly, the vessels are the normal size for general purpose frigates.

Why am I telling you this? Well, Douglas Chapman MP tweeted the following much to the bemusement of many.

Additionally, on different occasions on Twitter and in The National newspaper, mention is made by Chapman of the size of these ships in an apparent attempt to frame the vessels as small.

The following is an excerpt from The National:

Why the insistence on referring to these frigates as small or “mini”on multiple occasions? Why would this be done? I honestly don’t know why someone go out of their way to make the vessel seem smaller, what purpose would that serve?

Tweets like the above are liked and retweeted very quickly by account followers, tweets like the above are in fact how myths like ‘carriers with no planes’ get started. What’s the betting the next myth we have to start correcting on Twitter is ‘but they’re only mini-frigates’?

I reached out to Chapman for comment, I’ll update this article as and when a response is given.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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87 COMMENTS

  1. Well, well where do we start with this guy….a ‘mini’ frigate and a break in the promise of the 2014 referendum promise …this is why the SNP should never be taken seriously or ever have gotten in power, they strike me on the same level as Sinn Fein.

  2. I’m I correct in saying that the man is I’ll informed or just plain ignorant. At 5.700 tons its bigger than the other proposed designs. Meaning that these vessels can be easily upgraded but my biggest concern is the apparent cheap price per hull. If this project comes in on budget and on to time without political or ministry interference I’ll eat my hat. Quite a safe waiger I would have thought.

    • It is possible that he is concerned that had the Scots gained independence the yards would perhaps have benefited from the order for maybe 10 super carriers from the Scots Government to keep them on an even footing with the Americans. Seriously though it is not in the interest of the SNP to recognise any benefit going to Scotland from Westminster. Also I think you would have to look at the small print in the contract to find out if the price is just for the hull or includes all the bells and whistles. Sometimes a fixed price contract means just that whilst sometimes there is flexibility.

      • Its a pity the remain vote was so evenly dispersed through out Scotland. If it had have been confined to the urban centres the SNP would not have been able to weaponise it so much. I still don’t understand why they want to be independent (which they pretty much are) but want to be subject to the European Union. It just doesn’t make any sense.

        • Not wishing to get political, but it seems you can’t escape from it.
          The fact is more of the Scottish electorate voted to Leave the EU than actually voted for the SNP at the 2017 general election, (977,569 SNP – 1,018,322 Leave).
          When that is compared with the UK overall, the SNP got just 3% of the popular vote, but because of the quirk of the ‘first past the post’ system the SNP got 35 seats!
          Compare that with UKIP for example, which at the 2015 general election got 3,881,099 votes, (12.6% of the UK voye), but no seats at all.
          That is why the EU Referendum result went to the Leave, because for once, every vote counted.
          Join the discussion…

          • I can only assume your missus has a fondness for us braw kilt wearers, I don’t blame her really but there’s no need to take it out on the rest of us, as far as I know I’ve not sawn her in half although I’m available next weekend.

      • God how I wish we could have ten supercarriers we just now need the 70 escorts to go with them Oh wait we need to get the shipyards to build them Ah we need the people to build them er we don’t have so we need the Poles to come over here to sort that out Em wait a minute we have Brexit so the Poles can’t come the ships can’t be built so the investment won’t happen.
        Oh what a lovely day.

      • it’s a scandal by itself that we are held to ransom by the yards on the Clyde. no alternatives means a take your time attitude in the expectations that they will Always get the contracts from the RN.

  3. I personally would take size and displacement out of the equation.
    In class terms, it’s arguably Corvette, between OPV and Frigate.
    With HMS and 2xTLS, 28+ knots…they would be filling a similar role, to that of The Black Swan Class (Large Corvette/Sloop) escorts of WW2, with the added benefits of littoral role capabilities.

    • What rubbish! The ship has a 9000nm range can embark a significant military force, has large aviation facilities capable of housing a merlin and landing a chinook, it has four sea boats ability to utilise four containers to house command and control systems for uavs and usvs,. What corvette elsewhere in the world has those capabilities?

      Although weapons fit has not been released it will at least be the same as T23 frigate, plus it’s parent design is a frigate (that would be a destroyer in RN service).
      The only real difference between it an T26 is a few thousand tonnes, super silent sub hunting, and a slightly bigger/better flexi mission bay… oh and the best part of at 500m pounds! Don’t get me wrong love the design and capabilities of T26 but fed up of people talking down the a140 it is a proper general purpose frigate

    • Its a relatively cheap and simple warship, the rules on whats what are a bit vague, we’re now getting frigates that are bigger than destroyers were 20 years ago. Its not worth getting bogged down with this stuff, a larger platform will be more seaworthy when things get lumpy and in the event of another Falklands provide more space to put GPMG’s etc on. Its seems to tick the boxes for the generic stuff, its got a big bangstick on the front for NGS, a vertical launch missile battery, room for a parafin parrot and apparently antii submarine torpedoes. For a large part of the globe I’m sure it will be fine, freeing up the Gucci 26’s for riding shotgun on our 2 carrier task groups……

      There’s no emoji’s on here so assume I’m doing a laughing one.

      • It’s fantastic, I’m so pleased they went with Arrowhead.
        Not only have they built a large, simple but affordable platform.
        Not only have they put in large spaces and excess power generation for adding weapons of needed.
        But those weapon blocks can come from the parent build, the Dutch frigate.
        No design cost, just buy them and drop them in.
        My biggest concern was that we were going to waste money on stretch Corvettes with no scope for expanding the armament.
        Just like the catapult debacle with the QE class.

        • Actually it’s based on a Danish design. But yes it was the stand out design. I think the problem is that the T31 competition was repeatedly refered to as for a ‘light frigate’, which the A140 obviously isn’t (although the other two contenders were). It’s ‘lightly armed’ but not a ‘light frigate’ (neither is the GP T23 (4,900t) its replacing).

          • I knew it was a Scandinavian D word!! 8D

            But I was lazy and couldn’t be bothered to look it up! ??

            My calling it a light frigate was more to do with it being ~2000t lighter than the Type 26?

            And due to the cheapness of steel I don’t quite get why they won’t build the Type 31a to be the same weight as the Type 26?

            The upgradeable nature of the Arrowhead is fantastic though.
            It’s got HP and MW to power future weapons.
            Even the boring stuff like easy access to wiring looms and spare space for extra looms.

            For piracy type missions, the 5″, autocanon, Seaceptor and Phalanx system are more than enough and it’s able to defend itself admirably it seems.

            I don’t quite understand why IEP is so expensive?
            It sounds simpler and more versatile and less requiring of maintainence.

        • The Rivers will only Patrolling around UK waters and the Falklands so will not need any heavy armament to take on fishermen. I think they can still easily be upgraded if they wanted to fit an 76mm or 57mm Canon but they would need a phalenx added to patrol in the gulf.

          • BB85 They could be used in the gulf against Iran. There we need hulls but not necessarily a £1 billion target.

        • My impressions are that the Type31s are global escorts. They could be upgraded for task group ops. I think that’s the point of them.

          A stretched River class would only be good enough for patrolling the gulf against asymmetric attacks. I agree that’s valuable and protects our more expensive vessels e.g. Type 45, which becomes more of a target than a deterrent against fast boats.

          However, a River++ platform would never be useful against a peer adversary. But yes, I agree… it could deter Iran, so that’s valuable. I think the new Marlin missiles are very tidy and Sea Ceptor could be equipped.

          Hence, it seems we’re talking about two purposes here. The River is a Corvette/Wallflower class at best and the Type 31e is working towards a full Type 23 replacement. We will get lasers later, so perhaps it makes sense not to fully outfit it yet.

          Two ship designs, two purposes?
          Thoughts?

      • Destroyers are about 9000 tonnes and really are anti aircraft “destroyers”.

        These Frigates in question are NOT small. If needs be they can be upturned. The T26 is expensive because it has expensive equipment in them.

        All this talk from the SNP is crude and political. They are bigots. The T31 is not small.

        • I’m not sure what any SNP ‘bigotry’ has to do with it, unless they’re being sizest. As for “political”, um, its kind of what POLITICAL Parties do.

          I don’t get this obsession with whether they’re frigates or destroyers, who cares, our ‘through deck cruisers’, you can call it what you want, it still did the job of a small aircraft carrier.

        • The “through deck cruisers” were political because the socialists did not want to call them carriers.

          It’s bigotry because the SNP wanted to belittle the ships to pretend that they were promised bigger ships. It might be better and simpler to say that they are telling lies.

          • Dear oh dear, first the SNP are the baddies, now the Socialists, how dare they call ‘our’ aircraft carriers ‘through deck cruisers’, I’m not sure I want to live in this world gone mad.

            As for the SNP ‘bigotry’, I’m sure with the right counselling, the ships will get over it and lead fulfilling and happy lives.

          • You raised up through deck cruisers. And it was the socialists that scrapped the order for a proper carrier.

          • Ah, so we’re playing the blame game, gotcha. So you’ve picked a side and want to blame the other side for all the wrongs of the world, or at least the state of the Navy.

            Have a wee look through the decline of the Navy, the Armed Forces in general and you’ll see both ‘sides’ have contributed. That’s assuming you see spending lots of money on the Armed Forces as a priority, that will come down to opinion. Unless of course its all about the ranting at views you don’t agree with….

          • You might be playing games. May be thats why you brought in the issue of through deck cruisers.

            I will stick to my opinions about the SNP and their dreary politicking.

          • Yes, I moved the conversation on from you calling the SNP bigots for calling the Type 31’s small. And a bunch of other rants but hey ho…. I’m not a fan of the SNP myself by the way but we’re going well off the reservation with this guff, just let it go fellah, just let it go. Have a look online for some breathing exercises, whales noise is apparently soothing too.

          • Trevor, do some research on UK defence spending since the second world war and then we can talk about who scrapped what.

    • Emm, Ian, I think you need to understand the diffrence in general purpose frigate and corvette. The T31 with the Arrowhead 140 design is not a corvette,she is and has the capacity to be a good all round general purpose frigate, the range and ability to stay on station and tha capacity as long as the government get it right to increase her weapons outfit.
      So where is the corvette in the design?

      • If you increase its fit-out beyond what the government have loosely specified, then yes, it would change its class.
        If you digest what I wrote, about displacement over fit-out…

        • Got to be honest Ian, I’m still not getting your point. If you have a vessel that is used for one purpose but then gets used effectively for another purpose then surely that’s a good thing. Who cares if its a big corvette with a long range or a GP frigate or even ends up a destroyer, as long as it can do the task its asked to, nomenclature is very much a non issue.

  4. He’s a civy who prob looked at the picture as found at the top of this page and presumed…Mini Ship. That said his reply to the following question cannot be excused
    Raymondo
    “Great news, will the contract be taken away from an independent Scotland?”
    DC:
    “They would be mad to remove any contracts from Scotland – cost, skills, infrastructure. Pragmatism rules!”
    Raymondo
    “Thanks for the reply, so it’s okay for the government to award naval shipbuilding contracts to countries outside the UK. I’m sure that clears everything up”
    DC:
    “That’s the norm. The T31s are for export to countries that don’t necessarily have the skills or infrastructure to build ships themselves.”

    • No, he’s an SNP MP, meaning he’s interested in making anything good for Scotland seem as bad as possible to further his goal of Indy.

      • Correct. Scotland however is full of people who can see through this to find a positive picture. Scottish yards are riding high in the U.K. so the SNP has to find fault.

  5. I don’t think he meant “mini” in terms of size, probably meant the commitment as small or the cost as low. Really, a nothing story

  6. An SNP MP playing politics? In the initial T26 plans “Scotland expected to be building 13 frigates” and the outcome now either presented as “Scotland gets the build 13 frigates” or “Scotland gets the build 8 frigates plus 5 mini frigates”. Distorting reality to invent grounds for a grievance? Either that or ignorance, both unacceptable.

  10. I knew this would be an SNP MP when I saw the headline.
    It’s a deliberate falsehood put out to downplay the awarding of the work because it doesn’t suit the SNP narrative of the UK Government mistreating and musleading Scotland.

    Such lies should be called out for what they are.

    • Of course it is an SNP person. Enough politics what about the naval worth of these vessels? They are big, well powered and, it seems, very seaworthy hulls. What the MOD hasn’t announced it their weapons / sensor fit. My understanding is they will have a medium calibre gun, cannons, GPMGs, Sea Ceptor SAM, A Wildcat Helo with Sea Venom & a lightweight homing torpedoes. Although I think a longer range anti-ship missile is desirable, this spec is an OK escort and fighting ship; lose any of these and it isn’t really a warship but a police boat. The sensor / sonar fit too is important. A modern warship must have situational awareness or the weapons are worthless. I note the containerised mission fit convertibility includes a towed array sonar which is very good news since the 8 T26’s haven’t the numbers in a full conflict scenario.

      Overall, it is great news but, and it is a big BUT, only if these vessels are adequately fitted out for modern operations.

      BTW, and I bet the MOD know this, the idea that a complex, multi functional, high endurance warship will be produced for £250m a pop is for the birds. Expect £400m each at least. This is especially so as two of the yards involved in their production are already bust.

      • I think you’ll find Rob that this is part and parcel of the design idea. A good hull able to take a whole range of weapons and sensors to suit the potential customer and to grow as and when necessary.

  12. SNP, piss and wind, piss and wind! Get “Indy” then no warships being built in Scotland! As an independent and therefore foreign nation (ruled from Brussels however) you wont be building any warships pal! Have you asked the unions at Rosyth and Clyde’s what they think? Don’t get me wrong, I think we are better together, but bored shitless with the SNP stooges flapping their lips and constantly whining about independence. You could give those choppers 50 Billion in gold bars and they would whine its to shiny and therefore a Westminster plot! Piss and wind piss and wind!

  13. Just when are we going to see an end to the use of the Defence budget as a means of reducing unemployment, of providing humanitarian relief despite the vast amounts of mis-directed Overseas budget, and providing lucrative defence contracts to companies in areas where the standing MP is in danger of losing his seat at the next General Election? When are strategic decisions going to be made that remove some of our small but absolutely essential submarines and their support facilities from a bottleneck loch in Scotland. With the exception of Barrow-in Furness will all shipyards in England be allowed to perish to satisfy Scottish blackmailers and if that is the case where does it leave the government defence policy when Britain actually has to commence hostilities against another country. Or will we just not bother.

    • Faslanes getting bigger and looks like it’s not going anywhere anytime soon. Even if independence in scotland happens it’ll take years to solve and move elsewhere.

    • I’m not against Scottish independence, it would be a shame if it happened, but if that turns out to be the will of the Scottish people then so be it. I just think that it is ridiculous that everything operationally to do with submarines happens in Faslane. Anything to do with frigate replacement happens in the Forth/Clyde valley taking a very long time and costing well over the going rate. It is also obvious from the accidents/incidents that have taken place on new build ships ie OPV,s and HMS Queen Elizabeth that the quality of work is not up to the standards set on previous Scottish warships. Why are our politicians so determined on the one hand to insist on value for money yet give it away hand over fist at the first sound of complaint from a Scottish Nationalist?

      • Its not just ship builders based in Scotland who are ripping the arse out of defence contracts though, I phrase it that way as BAE (for example) aren’t exactly a Scottish company. I was shocked at some of the prices of stuff we used, its a licence to print money.

        As for Faslane becoming the only S/M base, its financially driven for right or wrong, the weally weally big exploding things live in a hill in Coulport just round the corner from Faslane and there is a LOT of deep water for S/M access too, the bombers can only get in and out of Plymouth on certain tides too so if you wan’t ‘ridiculous’, moving the submarine refits from Rosyth to Devonport fits the bill but as ever, politics played its part, the Tories were getting hard pressed by the Lib Dems down that way and they didn’t have a chance in hell of getting a seat in this end of Fife (Dougie Chapman’s seat as it happens).

        I’m not sure they dish out the contracts “hand over fist” just because the SNP are mouthing off, you may have missed it but the Navy have been building ships there for quite a while now, there’s also the point that last time the people of Scotland were asked, we voted to stay in the UK. While I would expect them to build on their seats in the next election due to other events, they’ll be out of power at some point. Its worth pointing out they’re a minority government being propped up by the Greens and much like the rest of the UK, just because they’re in charge for now doesn’t mean that everyone in Scotland voted for them, most of us didn’t in fact. Not everyone in England (or the UK as a whole) is a Tory but we have a minority Tory government, go figure.

        Edit to add, the Astutes are taking their time to hit the street, well water. I blame the English…. GRRRRRRR

  14. This is an SNP MP. Their one reason for existence as a party is to gain Scottish independence. Before the referendum on Scottish independence the British Government told the Scottish people they would get 13 (I think) warships to build as replacement’s for the type 23’s.
    Because the government changed the configuration to 8 type 26’s and now 5 more type 31’s the SNP are crying fowl. They’re argument goes the type 26 is 9000 tons times 13 = 117,000 tons and the 8 26’s and 5 31’s only comes to about 100,000 tons. This is all obfuscation on their part. There was never a mention of tonnage and anyway the haven’t counted the patrol vessels that Govern have built as the SNP don’t class them as ships.

    Even if the Scottish yards were given exactly the number of ships as promised they would complain the paint was made on Tyneside instead of Clydeside.

    If they keep with never ending negativity they hope the rest of the UK will just cut them loose. And looking at a lot of comments on this website, and others, about “bringing the work to England”, “Winging Jocks” etc the tactic is working.

    let us not forget that the majority of Scottish people want to remain part of the Union and that the SNP want to break this union. Don’t get dragged down to their gutter level with your comments.

  15. He’s a Scottish nationalist and will try anything to belittle the news. Tactical voting in West Fife would remove this person from post. Tory and Liberals Democrats in West Fife should vote tactically to help remove him. Anyway, I wonder how many warships an independent Scotland would build at these sites. Very few of any would be my guess. With the massive budget deficit we would have we would have to buy cheaply made corvettes or maybe get some Royal navy second hand ships as a leaving gift

  16. There used to be a widely held assumption that, most, if not all MPs of whatever political persuasion were reasonably intelligent. Demonstrably, these days, that appears not to be the case.

    • Politicians either get voted in because they echo the views of their voters or because they are in a strong seat and don’t do anything stupid. They are generally pretty smart, but can seem otherwise because once voted in they need to be seen to be doing what their voters want of them (or at least be appear to do so) so they get re-elected, even when these do not represent their own views.

      In this case, they are SNP, which only reason to exist is to get an independent Scotland, so they use whatever spin they can to make it sound like that is what they are working towards and drum up a divide between scotland and the rest of the UK.

      Although in reality, i suspect a lot of SNP voters vote for the SNP as they appear to represent scotland better than the main parties, which is realistic as the party itself does not have to worry about voters in england/wales/ni, unlike the main parties which have to worry about all regions of the union.

      Taking a step back and you have to ask why anyone cares about this, the number of jobs supported isn’t that large, and could easily be absorbed through other investments into Scotland or by extra investment in the country if there was less uncertainty over their future, but its easier to campaign about bad England than focus on solving actual local issues.

    • Plus they all seem to need an unelected Machiavellian in the shadows to tell them what to do. What ARE political parties for nowadays? (note to any ‘political buffs’, this is also a rhetorical question!).

  17. On another note. Does anyone know if the selected T31 hull will fit into the covered frigate sheds at Devonport? With Babcock running Devonport I presume this was factored in with the bid?

  19. Oh Dear another SNP MP showing his absolute ignorance of his subject , big mouth , little brain . Orders “coming home” is it as though Scotland has an absolute right to such orders

  20. The Secretary of State for defence Ben Wallace said “we have the type 35 lightning and typhoo” the other morning on BBC breakfast

    None of them have a jar of glue what they’re talking about unless reading from a pre prepared script written by someone else

  21. It’s not as if the Scottish Government in an independent Scotland would sanction/be able to afford to build & run Type 31es let alone Type 26s, look at the Irish Navy … So we would go from building 8+5 (+5 River Batch 2) in Scotland to building what exactly?

    • Yeep Andy P, depending on the nation it was one or two tubes port and starboard, one in the bows and some had one in the stern. Mostly 21 in torps but if I remeber correctly the RN did play with 26 in torps for battleships, that would make a bad day at the office if that hit you.
      As for the SNP and Scotland and I am 50% Jock and the rest Taff, ( for non Brits, Welsh) Scots side from Dundee the most independent minded part of the country, but I will say this, no matter what Westminster does the SNP will blame them. If they get more money then any other part of the nation which they do per head of population it will not be enough. If every ship, plane and tank was built in Scotland but the numbers were altered or the specs were altered it would be a that Westminster is not keeping there word. It is easy for the SNP to play the we Scots are the victim card.
      I can’t remember the film, I think it was Hunt for Red October where a politician said that to get into power I will kiss the baby when in power I will steal their lollypop, Thats the SNP all over.
      Political rant over.

      • Its not just the SNP though (Christ, I can’t believe I’m sticking up for them), its ALL politicians, Labour blame the Tories for everything that’s wrong in the world, the Tories blame Labour for everything that’s wrong with the world and so it goes on. Going off on a massive tangent, I no longer feel the need to define myself by Right or Left, there are policies that appeal or don’t, the parties seem desperate to tie themselves in knots by political dogma instead of just getting on with it. Look at the absolute shambles that is Westminster currently, whether you voted to Remain or Leave, they’re more interested in screwing each other over than getting on with sorting it, “We need another extension to sort out Brexit”, that’s on top of the 3 years odd they’ve already had to get it sorted but self interest (from all of them as far as I can tell) has meant they’re each holding out for their personal vision of Brexit while at the same time a lot of them despite voting to make it happen are doing their damndest to prevent it, despite agreeing to go with what the people wanted when they were asked.

        I lost by the way (declaring my bias) but I’m a bit old fashioned when it comes to democracy and believe that if over 50 percent voted for it then that’s good enough for me, its a higher percentage than most governments get in our fecked up system.

        But more importantly, as a half Dundonian, dark blue or tangerine ?

        • Andy P, totally agree, politicians are all ill, they have a severe case of otherenditis, its why I wrote the the bit about kissing babies and stealing lollypops.
          Tangirine all the way. Granda was so bad that when I was knee high to a grass hopper I wanted to go to Glasgow to see the old Ark Royal, whoops a daisy, riot act and only bad people go to Glasgow come to mind, never been and still won’t go.

  23. Contact rather than reach out, but either way ask Mr Chapman to de-cry the work that will guarantee jobs in Scottish yards for at least two decades.

  24. Can I recommend viewing the DefAeroReport interview 13/09 with RN Captain Prest at DSEI 19. Apart from his obviously desparate desire to escape, probably due to extreme tiredness but not an unusual reaction to this site’s most pedantic of reporters, it is most illuminating.
    Regards

  27. Arrowhead 140 was clearly the largest of the three candidates in this race in terms of displacement, at 5,700 tons. Following the logic of the politician in question, the Type 23 frigates that displace just over 4,000 tons must be very small indeed.

  28. Mini Frigate, it seems that many people don’t realise how big these so called mini frigates are they are the equivalent in weight to a Dido Class WW2 anti air cruiser and a 1000 tons heavier than the T23s.
    I really have no time for the SNP and their constant moaning, they want all the goodies but non of the resposibility. Has the SNP ever really done anything good for Scotland except blackmail Westminster if you don’t do as we want we will vote for independence. One day it is possible that Westminster might just say we’ve had enough and go but by the way you don’t get the goodies.

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