Conflict breaks out in Israel and Gaza

Obama was my president not yours mate and he would never in a million years make a comment like, “Want to name any region of the world where Muslims get on with their neighbours?”. There is absolutely no conflating your right-wing friend Farouk with President Obama. That’s because the US is the country that has paid the price for this sort of treatment of Muslims and Arabs. I am merely trying to maintain a lack of bias in the conflict (to keep a clear head) and propose some creative solutions. But today is reminding me of the early 2000s when the Israeli/Palestinian conflict was the first time we all saw so much hate and vitriol on the internet, buttressed by 9/11 and a vast lobby. I think I’ll step away . . .

Love how you flagged up my post for approval. Embarrassed into silence how I replied to your racist bigot remarks with my actual history. You do as all loosers do try to cancel the message and then try to promote the line I am a far right troll. I take it you are still upset how your mullah left you to go to Syria. Yup he wanted to become a suicide bummer.

You really are an oxygen thief.

Seeing as you had the last post clicked for review, here it is again lightweight:

Ron wrote:
“”There is absolutely no conflating your right-wing friend Farouk with President Obama.””
 
It really gets my goat how lilly white liberals treat me as some sort of pariah simply because I don’t subscribe to the POV they hold all the whilst knowing SFA about my background:
 
My sister and I were taken in care because the entire Islamic community in Batley West Yorkshire decided to beat up my sister aged 6 because according to their primitive mindset she was possessed by a jin (evil spirit) and how did they come to that conclusion, because as a 6 year old child she spoke in her sleep/ I as her 10 year old brother defended her and so as the elder of the two of us, I was the one who took the brunt of all the hurt. (My two older brothers did nothing)
 
As a child were you tied up naked hanging from the ceiling of the cellar and beaten black and blue by the thing that sired you? How about getting hog tied naked in the garden and beaten. This happened to me on a daily basis
So as a 10 year old child, did you have the mullah of the local mosque have 2 teenagers stretch you out by your arms whilst he (a 30 year old bloke) decided to beat you black and blue.
 
Did you have the local Islamic lads think that because the adults beat you that they could too, problem there was when you are getting beaten up as a child by adults, children your age aren’t a problem, they in turn would go running to their older brothers and fathers , who in turn would beat young farouk and Yasmin just that little more.
 
But we were lucky, we were taken into care, or so I thought. In the children’s home Kirklees council decided that the pair of us (Yasmin was with a private family) didn’t need a white social worker and replaced Jenny Mitton with an Muslim. You know what she said to me on our first meeting:
“You (as in the two of us) have brought great disrespect to the community , you father loves you and you should ask to return. Which is strange because as my social worker she would have read my notes which showed that the pair of us were at great risk to our lives (I was told I was going to be taken into the woods, have my throat cut and buried where nobody would find my body) maybe that is why as a child of around 11, I stopped talking to my new Islamic social worker from that day on. In fact I refused to be in the same room as her.
Oh on the day I was taken into care, I was made to have a shower, I couldn’t understand why the two house parents (female) started crying it was because I was covered in bruises. Do you know why I couldn’t understand them, because to me been covered in bruises it was normal
 
To this day I have a very high (and scary) threshold to pain
At school the Muslim lads saw me as some sort of traitor for been placed in care and set about attacking me during breaks which saw me having to spend my free time in a classroom under the protection of a teacher.
 
So children’s home (Dryfield house , Healey, Batley) first thing that happened was It was found that my asthma was a nervous asthma (something about getting beaten on a daily basis) and I took up sports (DoE, Atemi Ju-Jitsu, running) As luck would have it, I lived close to two future World atemi Ju- jitsu champions (The Mullins brothers) and they trained me and I became (and still am) very good at looking after myself, resulting in me not needing anyone to protect me ever again.
I joined the army, no issues other than a few bigots who presumed that they could bully me (huge mistake) due to my skin colour. But on a whole most people I met were and are decent people.
 
Once on leave walking through Dewsbury town centre a man reached over and ripped my cross off my neck, problem there was I was in the squadron boxing team and as I bent down to retrieve my cross and chain from the now prone Asian feller. I asked him if he knew me, he replied no, but I shouldn’t be wearing a cross as it was Haram. He received a kick in the face for that remark.
 
Another time I was collared by a gang of lads who decided to inform me, that I should change my name as I wasn’t a Muslim or else. I went for “or else”, and guess what, I was the only one who walked away.
 
My youngest sister (whom I never met until I was in my 30s) invited me to her families house for Eid. I asked “Whats eid?” She replied its our Christmas. So as a decent person wanting to get to know his youngest sister, I travelled to Nuneaton and spent half a day in a room with a load of Islamic blokes asking questions why I wasn’t a muslim, and demanding I attend the local mosque with them to pray, I politely refused, but they wouldn’t take no for an answer , but I am as stubborn as a mule and continued to refuse, off they went to the mosque, leaving my brother-law to watch over me. The first thing he said was “I am off upstairs to pray, do you want to watch me” I said no. and walked into the kitchen to sit with my sister and the rest of the ladies. That evening when I returned home, she rang me and coldly informed me that and I quote “My family have said you are no longer welcome”
On the other side of the coin, ive run into a load of idiots who presumed that due to my skin colour I would be a walk over (tell you what having a high pain thresh hold helps)
Then there’s idiots who presume that because I don’t support their tinted view of the world I must be a far right bigot. But unlike them, I’m a proud Yorky and my mantra as drummed into me by the woman who adopted me is
“Nobody is better than me, But I am no better than anybody else.”
Tell you what Ron, the day you’ve walked even one step in my shoes, (as an apostate, which explains my lack of keeping in touch with my kin) then I may listen to what you have to say. until then shove your polarised ,bigoted and racist hatred where the sun doesn’t shine.

Bravo Farouk, as always.

“As a child were you tied up naked hanging from the ceiling of the cellar and beaten black and blue by the thing that sired you? How about getting hog tied naked in the garden and beaten. This happened to me on a daily basis”

Too funny! I have no sympathy because I do not believe you but I applaud your creativity. Regardless, you must have dementia as I was the one calling out your racist comments. You are a gaslighter to be calling me the racist here but delusion is par for the course for people like you who don’t even believe that climate change is a problem and do not deserve a seat at the table in any serious argument. I will not engage you again so feel free to keep the diarrhea stream running. I don’t have time to read your ‘autobiography’ but I don’t believe you because what I do know about your hardcore right-wing online persona doesn’t add up to me at all.

You’d lost the plot mate, I mean the best you can come up with is actually accused me of been a climate change denier. that says so much about the lack of any substance of your entire argument (Oh by the way all the light bulbs in our house are LIFX might want to look how much they cost) but i suspect i touched a raw nerve with you and as you couldn’t think straight (due to your train of thought still boarding at the station) you lashed out. Unfortunately your entire premise that I am not who I say I am falls at the first hurdle simply as I have posted enough photos of myself on this very board. (even posted a photo of the letter I received from the Army pension office the other week, which included my name)
But hey you continue throwing those barbs, I mean a real man like yourself has to prove himself by playing the far right card.

Ron, why wouldn’t you believe Farouk? He has given you a brief overview of his history, and therefore his reasoning for his thought process, partly from learned behaviour (from others also). Do we no longer believe other posters comments due to them not adhering to our individual thought process and our own learnt behaviour? Mate as for being physically punished by family and community, I have come across that on a number of occasions in my time in the Middle East, its quite a common theme but maybe a little to unbelievable for the average white middle class liberal maybe. Farouk has shown himself to be a knowledgeable and experienced poster, with an ability to impart some excellent subject and general matter information, and was a previous combat Engineer. Also mate not sure where I read he was denting climate change, can you point me to that comment please, as previously Farouk has acknowledged and raised concerns about climate change. Thanks.

Message to Mr. George Allison:

Can you please block this abusive racist.

http://archive.today/2023.10.08-093930/https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/rupa-huq-and-the-politics-of-prejudice/

Farouk

I did wonder about your past and your input on this site has always been excellent
All I can say is keep strong as there are a lot of ill informed people out there

Ron Stateside – You have got Farouk wrong mate

Of course Iran is behind this. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that they are emboldened by a US President who just paid $6 billion in ransom to them for American hostages and doing everything he can to appease the Mullahs. Not to mention the Iranian lobbyists who are members of the Biden administration.

Agree that there is a significant presupposition of Iranian involvement, but prefer to await credible evidence before final judgment. Could easily envision this conflict spooling up into an additional proxy war between the US, championing Israel, and Russia serving the same role for Iran. That could become a very sporting proposition.

Do agree that encouraging release of $6B in impounded Iranian oil receipts by S.K. was another significant on-side goal committed by current administration. Relatively few do not realize that funds are fungible.

Iranian lobbyists in the Biden administration? Perhaps, but would prefer additional details.

Tehran has been handing over at $30 million a month to Hamas now for the past 4 years. During that time Hamas militancy has increased and the duty rumour is it payments for Hamas to gain information on the Iron system. This bore fruit in June 2021 when after 15 days of Hamas instigated conflict where they lobbed around 4360 missiles into Israel it was reported that the iron system was close to running out of interceptor missiles. This past 24 hours has seen 2400 missiles lobbed into Israel. With no doubt a lot more and I suspect that some of the hit teams sent into Israel were sent to target iron dome stations. But Gaza isn’t the place to watch rather its Lebanon and Syria as the places to watch as Iran has been heavily fortifying those areas especially with missiles and drones. I wouldn’t be surprised if gaza is simply the opening rounds of a huge attack on Israel, with no doubt land invasions from both areas entering Israel and causing a huge death toll. 

Be interesting to hear the comments of the democratic squad , but to honest I prefer listening to mini AOC as she talks more sense. “Did you know that?”

Farouk,

Firmly believe that if it comes down to a no-holds-barred conflict, the Israelis would wipe the floor w/ Hamas, Hezbollah, the Syrians, Iranians and whatever contingent of Russians still residing w/in Syria. During the Holocaust, the Jews were inculcated w/ the lesson that passivity is not a viable defense to ethnic cleansing. If Israel perceives an existential threat, believe the country will absolutely not capitulate and will endeavor to eliminate as many of the opposition as possible. The Israelis are generally acknowledged to have a stockpile of ‘nukes in the basement,’ a stockpile that is easily sufficient to completely eradicate the current civilization w/in Iran. Additionally, reasonably certain unrestricted conflict in Syria would eventually embroil the US deployment in the (NE?) and possibly, Turkish troops along northern border; ergo, creating one potential pathway to NATO involvement in the conflict.

BTW, believe ‘the Squad,’ believed to have been mentioned in your post, has very little remaining credibility w/ any significant percentage of US populace, beyond the radical left wing of the Democratic Party.

And what do you know, Hezb-Allah have joined in by launching rockets into Israel, resulting in the IDF having to deploy troops to the north, to that end I if the Iranian proxies inside southern Syria will join, also I have to ask will Tehran now rush PMU militants from its huge base on the Iraqi/Syria border to the Israeli border.

A firestorm has begun w/in the region; the ultimate dimensions of this conflagration could very easily become massive. Believe that relatively few fully realize at this point the potential extent of this conflict.

The losses on both sides of a regional war would be massive. Israel would be mostly destroyed as would the West Bank, Gaza, some of Lebanon, Syria.
The nuclear weapons worry is where would Israel launch them at? Are they sure Iran doesn’t have working weapons also?
It’s a disaster waiting to happen.
I don’t have the answers. moving/killing everyone out of Gaza and it being a no go area maybe a wish but not really doable. Where would they go? Egypt wouldn’t want them.
Giving the citizens of Gaza/West Bank good opportunities for employment, decent public services so they feel equal to Israel in society terms would help but it’s a long way off. That can take a lot of the hate out of people.
It’s a mess. I think after the current operations are over if Isreal can be the bigger person, stop building in contested locations, restricting water supplies, and generally scaling back policies that make life difficult for Palestinians that could help improve issues.
Palestine need to get to grips with the violence being put into Isreal and show it wants to be a state next to Isreal living peacefully. That is a massive task. Thaw West Bank has done a lot compared to Gaza to try and get along. It’s not perfect but things have got to start somewhere.

Believe your first two paragraphs summarize the near-term situation rather well.

My crystal ball, which presents an inerrant forecast of the future, has inexplicably developed a cloudy haze. 😉 However, please permit several observations/possible predictions:
Firstly, some outside observers may not fully comprehend the sea change in attitude toward security matters which may be occuring on a real-time basis w/in Israeli populace. Possible comparable events could be Pearl Harbor and 9/11 attacks, and possibly the Blitz (although war had been formally declared). The Israeli populace may well have shifted into a self-survival, ‘eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth,’ vengeful mindset. If true, this may not augur well for near-term peaceful solutions.
Secondly, this will inevitably add to the financial and political burden of the US, and thus NATO as a whole. Israel will be in competition w/ UKR for finite military aid, and another geopolitical front has erupted, diluting/diverting attention from existing crises. Altogether, a somewhat less than satisfactory SitRep. 🤔😳😱

It’s almost like it was planned…I’m sure Russia will have been whispering into ears….Iran and Russia are peas in a pod with china leading the whole.

Ryan Macbeth did a piece on sub stack about the conflict. He thinks this has probably been years in the planning. With the para motor gliders that would have taken time to train, smuggle in the parts etc. where have they been training to fly?
A lot of them had radio communications so some organisation/planning has went on with an overal HQ running the show.
They didn’t have water or supplies on persons so a quick hit, grab, kill and run tactic over multiple locations all at the same time.

Russia is already doing a 180 degree news spin of the situation, add this to the fermenting instability in the Balkans to distract and confuse the USA during election warm up and not least to totally blindside Europe.

I think I smell a Putin Plan to divert interest from Ukraine.

Wonder what China will do?

Patiently awaiting an opportunity to invade and seize Taiwan. 😳

This is also the problem with no European nation being able to step up on a conventional front. If the US president is seen as wobbly, no other Western decision maker can give warmongers pause for thought. Even if they did look at the likes of “when finances permit” Sunak and “what the defence secretary meant to say” Shapps, I doubt the UK would enter into the equation. Our leaders are the weak point of our deterrence.

Nobody said fixing one of the world’s most intractable problems is easy so gaslighting is not good enough mate you’ve got to debate my points.

Where to start? This my third (or fourth) Israeli-Arab war. The spanner in your works is Iran. Read up on what Iran wants and has worked for since 1979 and I will comment further.

I was talking about the narrow issue of right of return: supposedly the most intractable issue in the world’s most intractable conflict. Make your points on that and I will comment further.

The right of return is a red herring and far from intractable. The right of anyone who claims decent from someone who used to live anywhere in Ottoman Palestine (including Jordan) to live inside the borders of Israel is a guarantee of the destruction of the state from a Jewish point of view. Jews will be in the minority and democracy will go the way of Lebanon. So the Palestinians can use it in negotiation to concede (temporarily) any point, because as long as the right of return is a demand, they know the package won’t go through. If everything else is settled to their satisfaction (a very big if), they will modify the right of return to make it effectively go away.

The real intractable problem is the sovereignty of Temple Mount and Al-Aqsa.

Sadly this isn’t an issue people actually want to debate. People have picked their side and nothing will change that, so right of return is a red herring, Israeli settlers being immune to justice is also a red herring, everything is the fault of Hamas and Iran.

Try 1 war every 4 years

Ron your only point is money.

It has nothing to do with money. This has nothing to do with “refugees” there were millions of refugees that got nothing in Europe either in Yugoslavia or in WW2.

It has to do with imperial religious ideology.

Massive difference between Ulster and the Middle East. After 9/11, the Americans who were supporting the provisional stopped funding them. They suddenly saw what supporting terrorism does. The Russians, Iranians and others are fuelling the conflict between Hamas/Fatah and Israel.

This attack must have been Iranian-supported. The other issue is the videos. You can see the attackers leading and kidnapping are Black, not Middle Eastern. That points to Houthi Yemenis.

I totally agree.

This is some, none too subtle, pot stirring by Iran at Russia behest.

The only issue with that us that it could get Isreal off the fence re Russia / 🇺🇦…Mad Vlad is gambling that Israel will protect the Jewish population in Russia in spite of this…..very complex gamble….what it will mean is that Mossad is let off the lead to mess up anything Russian……so I’d be unsurprised if a lot more Wagner planes didn’t start dropping out of the sky….not at Mad Vlad’s behest.

Mad Vlad is so desperate that he is taking big risks.

Hmmm…very interesting speculation re Mad Vlad’s sponsorship of potential Iranian meddling. 🤔 If this indeed is the case, Mad Vlad may prove to be more cunning than some (or most, including me) currently realize. Machievelli would be proud of Mad Vlad, if indeed the true situation.

There is very little chance Russia is involved with hamas invasion. That has be planned for a long time, probably started before Russias invasion of Ukraine. Russia likes to keep a good relationship with Israel. Any proof of Russian involvement would destroy that relationship.
Hamas hates Israel. Iran and Hamas hate the thought of Israel being peaceful with its neighbours in the Middle East.

Thanks. I never mentioned Ulster, but I agree, the thirty five years of ‘armed struggle’ were down to U.S. political and financial support against their one reliable ally.

This is assault entirely Iranian inspired. A few of us have clocked the race of some of the attackers and I have read various suggestions as to who they are; yours is the most likely.

Yes you are since you want Israel defenceless.

See what evacuating Gaza did?

It is amazing that don’t compute in your mind the ideology of Hamas that wants Israel destroyed.

“will provide Israel with all the international guarantees it needs for its existence”

Like Poland and Czechoslovakia at start of WW2 or in end of WW2?

My friend AlexS, without the 2 State solution there will be no peace and will ultimately lead to either the ending of the Israeli State in a single Arab-Jewish State with Jews as a minority (Demographic trends are the same as those that are resulting in the “white Nationalism” we currently see in the USA) by 2050 (you and I will probably long gone then).

Currently within the borders of Israel and the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank are ~ 8.5 million Jews and ~1.5 million Arabs citizens in Israel and ~4.5 million Palestinians in the territories, and this is without adding the 4-5 million Palestinian refugees scattered across the Middle East. The birthrate of the Arab and Palestinian population is estimated to be at twice that of the Jewish population and it is estimated that by 2050 the Arab-Palestinian population will outnumber the Jewish population.

Therefore in a Unitary State that current supporters of Israel are inadvertently supporting by refusing to push Israel to accept the 2 State solution, Israel will lose it’s Jewish identity. The Jewish minority can only retain power through greater and greater non-democratic oppressive measures which will lead to greater and greater conflicts. Note that Israel only needs to lose 1 of these conflicts and the State of Israel is ended. It is either that or Israel committing unimaginable genocide of exterminating the Arab-Palestinian population, or implementing a policy of a massive forced relocating of the unwanted Arab-Palestinian population outside Israel and the Palestinian territories.

The solution to the problem is in Israel’s hands. Trying to enforce a Palestinian “ghetto” in Gaza and the West Bank and a similar one for its Arab citizens in Israel, is not sustainable.

A pity that more countries in the middle east did not take in Palestinian refugees the way Jordan did (or the way Israel did with the nearly equivalent number of Jews expelled from Arab countries during and after that period. Too late now, unfortunately.

You sow what you reap. The Islamist have become dominant in Arab politics because in the Post WW2 the so-called Western Democracies, led by the USA have constantly worked to undermine the secular political entities in the moslem countries because of their perceived leftist leanings.

In the case of the Palestinian society the secular groups that made up the PLO (Fatah, Popular Front etc.) were all undermined by the USA, its allies (UK, France, Germany) and Israel itself. Politics abhors a vacuum, therefore the only alternative were the religious orientated groups, and in the case of Hamas, it was nurtured throughout the 1980s and 1990s by the Israelis with the aim of undermining Arafat and PLO coalition. The Western allies got what they thought they wanted, a weakened PLO and before they knew it, Hamas and the Islamist had become the dominant political forces in Palestinian polite.

I am at a loss why commentators in the forum are surprised. Wherever western intelligence services have gone in to undermine secular leftist leaning political forces in the Arab world, the Islamist have taken over. List starts from Iran (1953), Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Syria, Libya.

No different to what Hezbollah is doing in Lebanon.

It is different from the Russian invasion of Ukraine because Israel took those lands only after being attacked (several times).

Yes, two wrongs do not make a right. but they are surrounded by people who have no interest in a peaceful co-existence

There was me thinking Israel launched a pre emptive strike in 1956 and 1967 but yes they were attacked, who attacked them exactly, that they had to occupy the Gaza Strip and the West Bank? I don’t thinkPalestinian’s attacked them until after the occupation began.

Jim wrote:
“” There was me thinking Israel launched a pre emptive strike in 1956 and 1967””
 
1956 had nothing to do with Israel and more to do with France and the Uk taking umbrage at the annexation of the Suez canal by Nasser

As for 1967, Nasser wanting to look good on the world stage after his disastrous attempts of a pan Arab union (At the time Syria and Egypt were one country) and his misadventure inside Yemen (26k dead) decided to eradicate israel, and so he kicked out the UN from the Sinai, and deployed his army there. He went on a whirl tour around the region garnering support for his forthcoming invasion of Israeli and in a speech he gave to the Arab Trade Unionists in May 1967 he stated:
 “The battle will be a general one and our basic objective will be to destroy Israel.”
May was also when Nasser closed off the Straits of Tiran which was the major artery for Israeli oil imports and we saw the mass deployment of foreign troops in support of any Egyptian attack. Which is why the Iraqi 3rd Armoured Division was in the West bank (then classed as Jordan) at the start of hostilities

But here’s a little snippet not many people know about (or refuse to acknowledge due to the political myopia) Operation Dawn was an Egyptian plan of action to carry out a pre-emptive strike on Israeli. With pilots in cockpits ready to take off, at 4am on the 20th of May 1967 the Russian ambassador Dimitri Pojidaev knocked on the bedroom door of President Nasser and read a message he had received:

“One hour ago, President Johnson informed me that the Egyptian forces are preparing an attack on Israeli positions and that this attack is about to be launched. If this attack happens, then the United States will consider itself freed from the commitments it gave to the USSR to exercise restraint.

Pojidadev then added if the US knows then so does Israel, which wasn’t helped by how a routine Israel troop movement in the desert along the same route used in 1956, was seen that the Israelis knew. Nasser rushed to his command centre and cancelled operation Dawn and then dithered, 16 days later the Israelis struck at the large number of primarily Egyptian forces on the ground waiting for the get go.

Yeah amazing how Hamas fires 5000 rockets kills and injures many yet you still think they are victims. I suggest you read the Hamas charter especially chapter 7. See Farrouks posts he has explained the situation very well.

Are you joking Jim?
Why you enforce more burden on Israel than other countries?
Did not the borders changes in former Yugoslavia?
Or in WW2 Europe or in many others area after?

There were no Palestinians, there were Egyptians, Jordanians.

If those areas would still be under Jordanians, Egyptians there would not be Palestinians today.

That sounds like mad vlad stating there are no such thing as Ukrainian’s. Palestine existed for a long time before 1948. People were not as you say Egyptian or Jordanian.

Noted.

Not only in 1956 and 1967 but in 1947 when the State of Israel was declared. Ben-Gurion and the Zionist leaders wanted more land than what the UN approved partition was offering and therefore proceeded on a policy to drive out the Arab population so that the new Israel State would have control of more land for the Jewish population. Remember the Arab population of Palestine did not have and organized army. They were relying on the British army and the British led Trans-Jordanian army of King Abdullah for protection.

Well Jim, there isn’t an “Palestinians” anymore. Not in the correct sense!

Ok, now forgive me as my Old Testament is a little rusty, but it was Jewish land before being conquered by the Assyrians, back to the Jews, then to the Babylonians, back to the Jews, along came Alexandar the Great, then back to the Jews, then came the Romans, after them, it went back to the Jews who shared it in peace with the Christians until along came the Muslims, this went back to the Christojewish state and then to Muslims several times before it went back to the Jews, along came the Ottomans and then came the British who protected both Jew and Arab before we arrive where we are today!

The name Palestine is derived from the Philistines who lived in the area between Israel (Kingdom of Judah) and Egypt. It’s an elongation of the Greek word Philistia. The Romans called the area North of the Kingdom of Judah “Syria Palaestina”. Palaestina was used up by the Muslims who occupied the region from Syria down to the south of today’s Saudi Arabia for the region to their West in the 5th century. After the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, the entire region from the Levant in the North (where Aleppo in Syria is) to the South (where Gaza is), was called Palestine from around 1900 only. So no, Palestinians were not the people who owned the land. It was the name given by the Ottomans at the end of their Empire.

Your previous reply to Farouk clearly indicates that it is you that is the racist.

Edit: I see your previous racist remarks have been removed by the moderator and rightly so. However, the moderator has failed to protect both the readers and commentators from a Racist Troll.
Can I please request again that The Moderator block this stain on humanity for the benefit and protection of other users. Thank you!

That’s not strictly true anymore, Jordan is a nation that Israel has and could have normalised relations with and the same with Egypt. Syria to the north is now a basket case nation and not an existential threat to Israel…Lebanon is really again not an existential threat Israel is on the med and cannot easily be cut off…the only nation that realistically wants to wipe Israel off the map is Iran and Iran is 1000miles away from Israel with two nations between Iran and Israel..that hardly like Iran…a more moderate Israel would be a far safer Israel…especially an Israel with normalised relations with Jordan and Egypt.

Hezzbollah is based in Lebanon they are funded and armed by Iran and are an existential threat. Also Iran has a large stockpile of conventional ballistic missiles which they would use in thecase of war Israel.

No Hezbollah are not an existential threat to Israel, a serious threat to life yes but not an existential threat to the state of Israel…an existential threat is one that can realistically threaten the existence of a state…there is no realistic scenario in which Hezbollah is able to destroy the state of Israel. To call any Terrorist group no matter how well armed an existential threat to a modern nation tends to be hyperbolic rhetoric designed to ensure people keep supporting intervention against that group, especially if it’s very expensive in lives and treasure…we know what has happened to western nations when they started believing their own rhetoric…they end up in never ending wars they don’t actually have the will to fight…that’s not saying terror groups are not a serious threat they are…but no an existential threat…an existential threat to Israel would be an alliance of Jordan, Egypt, a remade Syria, Iraq and Iran….that would be an existential threat…not a few thousand extremists with a load of rockets…against one of the most heavy armed and militarised nations in the world…..so that’s the existential threat Isreal actually needs to be focused on and you manage that by speaking softy, gaining normalised relations and carrying a big stick….horrible organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah live off hatred..remove the hatred and they wither on the vine, Stoke the hatred and you give them fuel, focus and purpose.

The Palestinian situation is quite different from that of Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Hezbollah represents the Shia Muslim minority in Lebanon and is the defacto government in southern Lebanon . It is mentored and financed by Shia Iran. It is a fundamentalist religious outfit which has no love for non-Shias.

Hamas is what you get when you seize peoples’ lands and homes, bottle them up in what is an open air prison and seal the borders. Some people will naturally.fight the oppressors and the more radical, extreme organisations will inevitably come to the fore.

Israel’s behaviour in the West Bank is morally wrong and in breach of international law. You cannot seize a neighbouring territory, and run it by military law for close on 30 years. You can’t drive the citizens off their land and use it to settle several hundred thousand of the occupiers’ people. You can’t allocate the water supply generously to the settlements and sparsly to the indigenous peoples.

Israelis are not united on what Israel is doing in the West Bank. Close to half oppose the whole settlement enterprise, but the extreme right wing goverment, backed by the orthodox Jews, carry on their merry ways, alas with uncritical US support.

The Palestinian’s position is thus fundamentally different from that of Hezbollah. Their motivation is not religious fundamentalism, as in Hezbollah and Israel’s ruling party (though there is a Sunni fundamentalist wing in Hamas), it is principally a fight against a rather despotic and heavy-handed occupation by Israel.

In 1975 Lebanon was a peaceful country ruled mainly by a Maronite Christian government, Islamists rocked up as an overspill from the Palestine and Jordan conflicts, not long after religious-based civil wars broke out and Beirut was reduced to ruins. Iran took advantage, and Hezbollah was formed, they are not a defacto government they are a subversive force, and the real Lebanese government is afraid of them. Hezbollah is a political-military springboard for Iran’s ambitions.

Hezbollah is as Lebanese Shia (Islamic sect), they are not foreigners who have come to occupy Lebanon. They simply get support from their co-religionist Shias who happen to run the Iranian state. We may not like Iran but we cannot in truth say they have occupied Lebanon. they provide support to the majority Shia population of Lebanon who happen to be Shia. In Syria they provide support to the co-religionist the Alawites who are minority in that country but have control of the Syrian State. Again they provide support to the co-religionist in Iraq Who happen to be the majority in that country and also happen to control the government of Iraq. In none of these countries does Iran have an occupation armed force in place in those countries.

Jim wrote:
 “”They won’t give Palestinian’s the vote in Israel””:
Actually not true, as everybody who is an Israeli citizen has a vote. The current Israeli population is around 9.7 Million of which 7 million are jews and 2 million are Palestinian which is why of the 120 seats inside the Knesset the Arabic parties of the United Arab List has 5 seats and Hadash–Ta’al has 5 seats
As stated both are Arab parties , however that said, pressure is placed on Muslims from Islamic religious agitators not to vote.

In contrast, the autonomous regions of the West Bank and Gaza, saw the last presentational elections held in 2005 with Hamas winning, resulting in the usual Palestinian dithering and which saw Hamas take control of Gaza in 2007 by the bullet, the bomb and the top floors of a lot of high rise buildings where a lot of Fatah members tried to learn to fly since then elections have been suspended at the hands of the Palestinian political elites and nothing to do with Israel.  

Your inaccurately conflating Arab Israeli’s with Palestinian’s and describing the West Bank as an autonomous region is Trumpian.

It’s an ouccupied territory according to the UN.

Jim wrote:
“”Your inaccurately conflating Arab Israeli’s with Palestinian’s””
No I didnt , I replied to this quote of yours:
“”They won’t give Palestinian’s the vote in Israel”
Your claim there is, that Israel refuses to allow Palestinians living inside Israel the right of vote. That is incorrect. Your words not mine.

No, I’m claiming that they are permanently occupying Palestine yet not offering the people they rule over on a defacto permanent basis the ability to vote in Israeli elections, I’m not referring to people of Palestinian decent typically refers to as Arab Israelis who live inside Israel’s 1967 boarders.

No such thing as palastine… A name conjured up by the Romans after a Jewish revolt. The Egyptians were offered Gaza. The jordians offered the west Bank, none of the them wanted them… they hate them more than the Israelis.I was in that region for 27 years. The Israelis gave back a pristine Gaza ,then the locals promptly destroyed it
. Government of Israel is in flux at the mo and heading in a direction I don’t agree with but I support it whole heartedly. My Facebook feed is full of mothers asking where there kids are. End of the day,,,,, no matter what side your on, name is Smith, Cohen or mohumdd we all want the same things.My mates and there colleagues ate now fighting there arese off..sorry if my spelling or punctuation is off,,, not much sleep last couple of days. Sad thing is, even my left wing Israeli friends are now calling for the destruction of Gaza

Jim wrote:
“”they won’t support Palestinian independence.””
Israel has supported Palestinian independence since 1947 however they draw the law at the one state solution which the Arabs want and support the two state ideal which the Arabs don’t want. So why do the Arabs want a one state deal, because due to their much higher birth rate, they would quickly take control of the Knesset .

In Oct 2000 Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered the most detailed description yet of his peace plan today, saying he would recognize an independent Palestinian state, and the Palestinians rejected Barak’s proposal. Which has been the story since the infamous 3 Nos of 1967 (Aka Khartoum declaration) 

How can they support Palestinian’s independence yet occupy the West Bank and build illegal settlements there? Do you disagree that Israeli settlements being built in the West Bank are illegal? What is your justification for Israel occupying areas outside of the 1967 boarder? I really love to know your legal basis or is it just might is right or maybe god wills it?

Jim wrote:
How can they support Palestinian’s independence yet occupy the West Bank and build illegal settlements there?
Did you know after Sharon handed over Gaza, he was going to do the same with the West Bank. But unfortunately he died.  However, I digress, all of the Israeli settlements inside the West bank are built inside Area C, according to Oslo areas A and B are Palestinian, C was afforded to Israel with a supposed handover of part of area C in 1999. Hey don’t get me wrong I fully understand the angst regards settlements, but according to the deal Area C belongs to Israel a deal the PLO (now PLA) signed up to.

In answer to the question how can Israel support Pal independence, easy, because if peace can be achieved everybody wins, for some strange reason the vast majority of the PLA are against it (just look at the Abba’s diatribe the other week) and to be fair whilst a majority of the Knesset want peace there are elements (Haredi jews) who hate everybody including their reflection in the mirror and with the birthrate of these nutters, concession have been made to keep them sweet. But even then they still ape the “The People’s Front of Judea” (from the life of Brian) such as protesting on mass over how their cop out not to serve in the IDF had been lifted . Plenty of videos of them attacking Police, women and even tourists (In fact there is a video of them spitting at Christians the otherday) they are also the ones who set up illegal settlements, however and a big however the Haredi do not represent the majority of jews living in Israel but they do comprise around 1.3 million which out of a pop of 7 million jews inside Israel comprises a sizeable political clout and that vote counts for whoever wants to run the country.

Jim wrote:

“”What is your justification for Israel occupying areas outside of the 1967 boarder?””

On the 19th of June 1967. 9 days after the end of the 6 day war . Israel offered to hand back all the territory it had taken in return for a peace deal and recognition of the state of Israel with the Arab league. On the 1st of September at the end of the 1967 Arab League summit, Israel received its reply. The Khartoum Resolution from the Arab league which is better known as the 3 Nos:
No peace with Israel,
No negotiation with Israel,
No recognition of Israel

While that was the case, 1967 was a long time ago and the Arab league is not what it was then.
It’s a mess but there has to be a solution somewhere.
Some countries in the region seem to be more accepting to peace now.

Big difference Jim. Everyone relies on saying who was there first. If that’s the case, it’s the Jews. They were there for thousands of years before Islam rocked up and dominated thee surrounding area. The Jews were in the area even when it fell in the Ottoman Empire. In fact, the Muslims, Jews and Christians were all living there with little conflict.

If it’s a who’s first thing us Anglo-Saxons need to be giving the whole UK over the those welsh speakers…as they was here first.

I can see the Druids claiming west London, that will go down a treat. 😀

They can’t even take over Stonehenge for more than two days a year.

You will be aware off of-course that the law does not recognise religious claims to land from 4,000 years ago by non indigenous settlers.

With all due respect, are you aware that never at any time in the past 2 millennia has there not been jews, the indigenous people of Israel living there. At times it was a small number but always there.

Possession is 9/10 of the law?

No it’s not, that a stupid straw man argument put up by those with ignorance of the law, by that definition mad vlads invasion is justified.

The article is about Gaza not the West Bank for a reason. Why would Israel replicate Gaza in West Bank?

Don’t understand your point? You are aware that west bank and Gaza are part of the same internationally recognised territory? Like crimea and Donbas are both part of Ukraine.

Jim wrote:
“”Don’t understand your point? You are aware that west bank and Gaza are part of the same internationally recognised territory””
 
Now try explaining that to Hamas and Fatah who since 2007 have disagreed with the rest of the world on that matter.

I’m not supporting either Hamas or Fatah, simply stating the legal position.

More like Beijing and Taipei. If you want to understand what’s happening, ignore anything and everything that the UN has ever said on the matter. Look at what’s actually there.

Legally, the US doesn’t recognise Taiwan’s right to exist, but the US President has said he would fight to protect that right. Stating the legal position alone doesn’t always tell the whole story, and in some cases doesn’t even tell the important part.

Yes a rightfully so . If an war of an aggression is made against you to send you to the ocean, every inch of territory you conquest is yours. Are you saying the France should return the German territory it conquered? Or the Yugoslavia territory that changed hands?

It is is interesting that you Jim how ignore what the Hamas want.

Jim wrote:

Pulled out of Gaza but not the West Bank, that’s the issue.

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, In 2006 Hamas launched 70 missiles into Israel, followed a fortnight later by an attack on Israel from inside Gaza killing 2 and kidnapping Gilad Shalit who was held for 5 years. It was a taste of what was to come and despite all the good intentions of Sharon (who suffered a stroke in dec 2005 and the Kadima party he formed and which won the 2006 election) his plan to hand over the West Bank was no longer viable after that Hamas attack. The irony been if Hamas hadn’t attacked and kidnapped a soldier the West Bank would have been handed over. So the real question we should be asking is exactly why did Hamas do so?, because they would have known that Israel was ready to pull out and that their attack would halt any movement in that direction.

Agree. Awesome reading everytime from Farouk. Hats off to him.
Good posts from others here too.

Jim wrote:
“”Sorry are you suggesting that because Palestinians are predominately Muslim they are some how responsible for past injustice committed by other muslins?””

Interesting how when unable to answer the question posed, you shout squirrel in which change tack and in this case play some sort of race card in which to try and get me to hang myself by getting me to reply to something i never said or even hinted at

But allow me to to play you at your own game. I stated that Muslims refuse to hand over anything they deem Islamic. Did you know that Hamas has been teaching children inside UN schools inside Gaza, on Childrens TV (new Pioneers) and at Islamic University of Gaza that Al-Andalus (Islamic Spain) is crying out to be reunited with the Umma and that once Israel is destroyed, they will set about recapturing Al-Andalus

They used in the past the hardware of game consoles for a lot of their military equipment. Old XBOX 360 and Playstations.

Nothing new in that most western countries do as well. There is a great Picture in World Naval Review 2020 of a USN sailor using an X Box terminal to control the Optronic Perscope.

Sorry, this comment was also intended to reply to ‘Ex-Marine.’

Indeed. The BBC is one of the most balanced media organisations in the world..it’s why everybody thinks it’s either run by Tory right wing shills or Marxists….

Oh And I forgot to add, the US Jewish Lobby is a given mate.

Hi Daniele I think you summarised it perfectly regarding Mossad. What a monumental failure, I’m at a loss to understand how they failed to have any insight.

Yes the problem here is if Isreal overplays it’s response…Jordan has been pretty pissed off with Israel over the dialogue and actions of the last year or so and at the same time Iran has been on a charm offensive with Jordan…if Jordan flips geopolitical sides…it’s moved from a terrorist threat to israel and hundreds dead to a regional war and 10,000 dead. Trouble is I think the present government in Israel will overplay its hand badly….sending Jordan to a place we don’t want it to go…the west/US get sucked into a regional conflict…just what Russia needs……china will be watching..an over committing US is just the thing to inform a bad decision day around tiawan.

That sums up the danger and is why Iran, Russia, Syria want a war with Israel. Russia will want Western munitions diverted from Ukraine to Israel.
China will be watching for the speed of US deployments.
Meanwhile the rest of NATO, who like Poland should have been undertaking a crash rearmament programme since February 2022 are likely going to continue to do bog all to prepare for the coming war.

Thanks for pointing the geostrategic and geopolitical realities out Jonathan the real story behind the scenes on TV.

Thank MOD looking at the K9 to be honest has front runner ,although more Archers are due at some point looking like mixed fleet for RA at the moment . Archer ,K9 both top platforms, but argument been Track or wheels . ? Not to sure about Boxer is it just a quick fix 🤔 .Agree RA more guns for Deep Fires and AD badly needed . 🍺 🇬🇧

Do we really need tracked for. Deep fires…you don’t need tactical mobility on your long range fires..strategic mobility and speed of engagement and disengagement are key..wheels to this better than tracks.

True Jonathan faster on wheels but I guess we’ll have to wait and see what the Army end up with .Could boil down to cost budget etc 🤔

Though the Deep Fires program I mentioned in this instance relates to GMLRS not MFP, Archer, or K9 mate as Andrew stated.

The GMLRS fleet is being expanded from 35 to 75 by buying up surplus US stocks and from where ever the Army can get them, as it is no longer built apparently.

You didnt read the story did you – and photo of a jewish man praying.

No need to prostrate yourself …. ROFL

Think of how christians pray – recite prayers etc.
Christianity is also from the Middle east and its also called Abrahamic like Jewish and muslim religions

I sense through the personal trauma that you have suffered in your life that you seem to have a strong personal animosity to muslims and it does seem to come through in some of your posts. Not every muslim is a bad person or a terrorist. There are good and bad people in all faiths.

Really, so the fact I sent my nephew a bottle of MOSCHINO Toy Boy (its an EDT) the other week is because I despise him. How about the many red cross parcels I send his sisters, or the Jellybelly toy cat I sent one of my nieces baby son. How about the Watches I purchased them all, the Ipad, or even the Iphone for my sister-in-law. All are Islamic and as I mentioned I have seen them once these past 30 years. The difference been is they have never dictated to me how I should live my life. I try to get on with everybody (I purchased a box of Yorkshire handmade pies for my neighbour the otherday after he lent me his ladder so I could clean my gutters) and I have no time for ambivalence or hate towards anybody. If I had I’m pretty sure I would have paid a visit to each and every thug who felt they could beat up a 10-year-old child including that cunt who sired me. But I never did, because I see my upgrading as what made me into what I am today a easy going bloke, happy to let bygones be bygones with nothing to prove.
But and a big but, people who attack me in any form get it back in spades. It explains why I have been a martial artist for years, why I train every day.
Stating facts as they stand doesn’t equate to ambivalence or as you stated animosity. It called stating the facts, if some people are uncomfortable with the facts, the problem lies with them and not the person pointing things out. As an Apostate do you think I am right to be careful about who I let into my life. To that end allow me to point you in the direction of Asad Shah a Ahmadiyya Muslim who was murdered by a Sunni Muslim who travelled from Bradford to Glasow simply because he was offended by how Shah on his social media wished Christians a happy easter. Now we could claim it was a one off, but read up on how his family and supporters reacted when he was jailed.
Yes you are correct in saying there are good and bad people in all faiths. But as we see time and time again a certain faith does go out of its way to be hostile to others. 

An interesting and balanced post Farouk.

Not balanced . The islam religion spread into the cosatal Med from around 600AD, but Christianity remained. The people were the same.
Think of Europe around that time, the people were pagan, but Christianity spread , were they Greeks or Romans from the middle east – cradle of Christianity – of course not . The locals spread the religion and the people were unchanged.

Theres was St Augustine of Canterbury from Rome to Britain under the anglo Saxons , but he didnt “invade”

‘Arabs’ in the sense you are using it means Arabic speaking. The Palestinian people in the generic sense were a mix of different Christian faiths and muslims as well.
The place was called Palestine in the bible and the name used by the romans Palaestina Prima.
Changes of language and religion bought by outsiders doesnt mean the underlying people have changed. See England, which was invaded by the Romans, the Angles-saxons-jutes, the Norse and then the Normans. The base group – the Britons also called celts, remained as the others were minorities.
For unknown reasons the germanic ‘old english’ wants totally replaced by Norman french- but its still a big part of the vocabulary