The Prime Minister has said he is insisting there be no delays to the future Type 83 destroyer programme, amid concerns that budget pressures could disrupt momentum in the UK’s shipbuilding sector.
Responding to questions from Labour MP Patricia Ferguson, Keir Starmer said “I do not want delays, and that is why I am insisting that there should not be any delays in the order.” He added that “it is really important that those orders continue in the way that is expected,” signalling an intention to maintain continuity in naval procurement.
He linked the issue directly to the industrial base, stating “shipbuilding is obviously hugely important in Scotland,” and highlighting the recently secured Norwegian frigate deal, which he said would provide “at least a decade’s worth of work in Scotland.” He added that he had visited the Clyde to engage with the workforce and demonstrate that “there is more work in the shipyards for them and for the next generation.”
Starmer also framed shipbuilding within a broader strategic context, noting that the Norway agreement “ensures that there is interoperability between our frigates and Norway’s frigates,” which he described as “an increasingly important part of the strategic work that we are doing.”
On export opportunities, including a potential Danish order for Type 31 frigates to be built at Rosyth, the Prime Minister confirmed the UK was “working very hard on it, including at leader level,” adding “I very much hope we can make progress.” He pointed to existing agreements with Indonesia and Norway, as well as defence cooperation with Turkey, as examples of a wider approach that combines industrial output with closer military integration.
He said such deals are “not just the orders but how we integrate and work strategically with our NATO partners,” underlining a shift toward deeper interoperability and coordination across allied fleets.
Pressed on how to balance exports with domestic fleet requirements at a time when the Royal Navy is under strain, Starmer said “we need both, and we need to get that right,” again emphasising interoperability. “The fact that we and Norway will have the same capability… is a really big step forward,” he said, arguing that standardisation across allies improves operational effectiveness.
He added that lessons from Ukraine had exposed the limitations of fragmented capabilities, stating that “by having different capabilities over the years… it has been more difficult than it otherwise… should have been,” and that he was seeking to improve “co-operation and co-ordination” across European partners.
On wider defence infrastructure, including Faslane and Lossiemouth, Starmer said investment was “kept under constant review” and described maintaining the UK’s nuclear deterrent as “the first priority.” He reflected on a recent visit to Faslane, describing it as “a very humbling experience,” noting the demands placed on submarine crews and their families.
Good.
Now show us the money. T83 cannot be frittered away by making FADS all about the fads.
The T45 still have loads of life left in them. It’s better to push the T83 program and get a couple more T26 built instead. The can still do spiral development on the radar starting with the type 91 sloop and develop a land based equivalent to SAMP/T.
Don’t you need to keep the design skills alive otherwise it dies. Same with advanced radar. Unless the Country is happy to buy a foreign system. The knock on from gapping it would be huge and risks a T23 situation as T45 age and fall apart and no replacement in place. The T45 are likely to be very busy it the world’s situation stays tense.
Top tier land and based GBAB is going to need something more advanced that Aster NT ( 1500km range BMs) if weapons aimed from the mid east are to be countered.
I honestly don’t much about a ships life expectancy other than what I read on sites like this and NL, but surely the type 45 should have plenty of life left in them considering how long they’ve spent sitting in port. Isn’t HMS Daring close to 9 years? So I’d quite happily take a couple more type 31’s with there smaller crew size that wouldn’t cost the world their budget, And make sure with the extra time they design the type 83 to be not just one of the best AAW ships but an all round capable warship ASW and land attack. And if at all possible more than 6.. as proven of late that is simply not enough.
Ships still age, Daring has sat there, rumours of parts being stripped. Hull plates degrade in water. What was the original build quality? Are Bae likely to say yes to a life extension then ramp up the costs? They have form for ripping off the taxpayer.
The question still remains what do you do with the architects, and radar specialists?
Samson will need to be kept current, that’s more money when flat arrays in a bigger mast appear the better option and one every ally is going for. Hypersonic mean constant look radars not a spin every second , else why are future plans of all other navies for fixed panels?
Keeping T45 in service is a gamble and I would bet it costs more in the long run than building newer , more modern warships
Type 31 is a ship for lower tiered combat. It’s lack of sonar or a dipping helo means it also would need money spent on it . Yes we should build more for some missions, and a more capable batch 2 makes sense but 6 AAW destroyers isn’t enough
They should build T83 with some overlap for the remaining T45.
They need to decide what the replacement for Aster will be ( or larger bodied development) and what the UK BM defence looks like and plan a ship big enough to take it.
If costs need to be contained , then work with the Italians?
Aster 30NT block II can deal with anything fired from the Middle East (MRBM)
All the T26, T31 and T83 need to get et all their mk41s, missiles and radars allocated before any T91s. Instead of T91s why not go with more T31s or some AH120s?
Well, we will hold you to your word Sir Kier. The problem is that there is no money, even less with the increase in the price of oil and gas. There are reports that Heidi Alexander is hoping to save £billions by lowering the target speed requirement for HS2. Hope she succeeds. I’ve also heard that Reeves agrees privately with pragmatic people in the conservative party that the Office of Budget responsibility borrowing rules are unnecessarily restrictive. If she (and Milliband ) could stomach a portion of humble pie, borrow and drill a bit more and given a bit of luck with export orders we might navigate our way to a DIP that’s affordable and acceptable 🤞
The problem is more borrowing is totally non-feasible. Global bond markets absolutely hate gilts owing to years of fiscal and monetary incompetence and every time more spending/borrowing is announced, there is a measurable uptick in yields. Now knocking around 5% gross redemption yield on the 10 year, way beyond any of our peer economies and totally unaffordable at scale. As restrictive as the OBR may or may not be, they are not the important factor here. Forget borrowing
Its a question of spending priorities, the defence uplift is there, its contained within the ‘vast’ welfare budget.
Labour simply won’t go near that, so we are facing a continued decline in our Armed forces.
Most would agree with you Levi. It’s all above my pay grade so I have to trust our elected representatives. I suspect that the reason the UK pays more to borrow is simply that we cannot feed ourselves and are completely dependent on selling some manufacture or service ( even our universities), simply to eat and keep warm. Social unrest is always just a whisper away. Orwell’s 1984 started when you had to key in your reg number to park – arriving after having driven over roads that are disintegrating. Pat Macfadden outlined a strategy for addressing the core problem – a decade long trend of increasing %age of able people not in work. Good luck reversing that. As my grandmother said, you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. Faith in the UK, is conspicuous by its absence, in more ways than one.
Debt interest alone is 120bn per annim. Debt is what got us into this mess in the first place. The entire Western system is one giant debt fuelled bubble, particularly the US. Growth in the money supply will eventually lead to the greatest crash ever, its on the way regardless of if they can kick the can down the road further.
We don’t need debt, we desperately need economic growth.
Fiat money was a great idea, people tell me. Donald Trump portrait commemorative gold nickels and dimes could be a good investment.
This idea of drilling a bit more would be nothing but a pr (mythical one at that) job. There would be no actual benefit in any short term way if at all. We need gas if anything and the North Sea has never been a great gas store, it’s running out we haven’t been self sufficient since the turn of the Century. As for oil forgetting its technical make up, the companies would need to get a very beneficial tax agreement to open new wells, which as tax is our only actual benefit from a commodity sold on the World market could limit further our benefits. North Sea oil is such a tiny percentage of the total it won’t bring down World prices. People talk about Norway upping its output and exploration but firstly it uses very little itself, for example it’s totally committed to electric vehicles and secondly from what I’m reading most of the new output and exploration is now in the Arctic high north, not available to us in our sector. I have never been against more output from the North Sea but in my view only if it directly benefits us as it did Norway with its Sovereign Wealth Fund or feeding directly into Britain and used for out benefit but that simply isn’t going to happen or can’t happen now. So the idea of drill, drill, drill is for the most part a con that will not be of any sovereign benefit even if politically as policy cutting off the option of new licences wasn’t in my view sensible in itself. The biggest concern would be if new policy now would con the public for popularity purposes while delaying the move to shedding ourselves of reliance on fossil fuels. The main reason for the cost of our energy was a mad rush for gas powered power stations so we could dump coal and nuclear. The latter was a big error and will take years to now partly reverse, and costly. Again ludicrously and by historical design, electricity is priced on gas because fossil fuels were predominantly once used to generate it and gas was plentiful and cheap. That has to change for a start, Spain doesn’t do it that way. Sadly however decisions made 3 decades ago have trapped us now, especially as along he way no Govt read the runes and changed things just doubled down of erroneous thinking.
So what you are saying is that Millband is right snd the only useful thing we could do is break the link between electrycity pricing and gas prices? I think that’ liberal party policy.
To be honest there are some easy no pain wins really..if anyone was willing to tell people this is what is needed.
1) as you say drill more oil and gas to sell
2) decoupling the wholesale price of electricity from gas ( as it’s only about a quarter of generating capacity but LPG dictates the price)
3) scale back HS2 and focus on its ability to increase rail capacity not speed.. nobody gives a shit if they arrive in Birmingham 30 mins quicker.. in the 21c we have zoom meetings.
4) make the pension means tested.. not brutally but in the same way they did child benefit.. if your a higher rate taxpayer that year, you don’t get a state pension payment that.. over 1 million people get a state pension paying higher rate tax..also graduate up to the higher rate.. thats more than 10 billion a year now.. more in the future.. don’t keep upping the retirement age.. we are living longer but we are not any healthier after 65 and don’t keep the pension restricted..
5) different fiscal rules for capital investments.. investment in infrastructure and wealth creation must happen you cut that you cut the future.. a big part of the issues we have with our state now relates to the impact of 16 years of austerity on capital investment.
6) some things cannot be private.. if it’s a natural monopoly and fundamental to the state it must be owned by the state..the private sector only works if there is choice and a market to sustain choice and competition.
PM insisting no delays to Defence Investment Plan, oh, wait, Type-83 Destroyer now.
Or 12 now then.
.
.
I call BS
Or 12 now then.
I call BS
Show me the money…..
Well we can all trust his word there will never be a U turn so thats is that issue firmly sorted until at least next week.
“Ensures that there is interoperability between our frigates and Norway’s frigates”, which he described as “an increasingly important part of the strategic work that we are doing.” As I understand it, one of the projected 8 Type 26’s has been / will be passed over to Norway leaving only 7 for the RN. One wonders whether “interoperability” will be used as an excuse not to order a replacement for the RN. There were going to be 12 Type 45’s, then it was 8 and finally six.
8 for the RN has been repeatedly confirmed.
Their ships will effectively become our ‘expanded navy’ in reality. You can see the cogs ticking over and the pr machine working out the message.
Sounds positive, but there’s always a but and a doubt, isn’t there.
Does that mean tens of billions lost from other programmes HMG refuse to fund?
It’s got to the stage so many simply don’t believe a word these people say any more…including me.
I’ll wait for the DIP and all the positives in it, Mr Starmer, excluding all the re announcements, spin, and programmes kicked so far down the road the next government pays for them, leaving you to sternly criticise any cuts from the opposition benches.
An old trick.
Yes?
I’m surprised he knows what T83 is.
I think he’s slightly more clued in than people give him credit for. If you were battling over the DIP for this long, I think you’d also get quite familiar with its contents 🙂
Any good lawyer is up to his neck in rewrites of the small print. Or in this case the big print no doubt. 🤓
If you look on SPF I linked the actual questions and answers when Starmer was in front of the committee. He sounds a lot more knowledgeable and direct than most people give him credit for, the level of obfuscation is better than I expected.