It is understood that the wet basin at Govan will be drained and a covered build hall will be constructed on the site, allowing for later Type 26 frigates to be built indoors.

Here’s a video of how it might look, at least according to my terrible design skills.

After construction, according to the person I spoke to, ships will be moved onto a barge and lowered into the water.

It is hoped that Type 26 ships 4 to 8 will be built in this facility, with the first three being put together outdoors. HMS Glasgow is in build now and is shown below, she is being put together on the hard standing, adjacent to the wet basin area after she was built in sections in the existing build hall and joined together.

Image George Allison

I previously reported that BAE Systems submitted a planning application that would see the ‘Ship Block Outfit Hall’ at its Govan shipyard in Glasgow expanded out to Govan road, that plan is no longer the preferred option. From what I understand, the process was being held up by older buildings on the site with historical significance.

The new drydock/build hall would allow ships to be built indoors, protecting them against the elements and would form part of an effort to modernise the yard to make it more attractive to future orders.

I’ve reached out to BAE Systems for comment on this.

George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. He also works for the NHS. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

I know nothing about shipbuilding, like most of us I suspect.

But why are the welds deforming in weather that has been the same for centuries and what of the countless other vessels also built outside in Glasgow?

Is it true?
Is it something like quality of the materials?
Is it a joke?
Is it something else like deliberate sabotage?
Is it none of the above with a plausible explanation.

Andy P
Andy P
1 month ago

As someone else who is in the dark on this, its puzzled me too why all of a sudden this has become an issue. Its not like they’ve just started welding ships there….

Possibly an excuse to push through getting the frigate factory built ??? Dunno.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 month ago
Reply to  Andy P

And yet you still can’t answer the ship building question with all your superior income knowledge😂😂😂😂

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
1 month ago

Not an expert either, but I suspect it has something to do with the joining of the fabricated blocks around the hull, older generations of ships would have had their hulls fabricated in a different way.

Last edited 1 month ago by Bringer of facts
expat
expat
1 month ago

Only the final join of the forward and aft sections has been done outside. Most blocks were constructed and joined inside.

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
1 month ago
Reply to  expat

That is what I am pointing out in my previous comment

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago

Perhaps we must be misunderstanding it then only the major join between front and back were done outside along with fixing superstructure elements of course. So when you say ‘…to do with the joining of the fabricated blocks around the hull’ is that exactly what you are referring to? Just seems a strange way of putting it.

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

OK, maybe ‘blocks’ was the wrong word to use, hull sections, is what I meant to say. I am referring to the welding together of the two sections i.e the large hull weld.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago

Think of it this way. The blocks – are aligned – the welding is started at the bottom(?) – a finite time is required for the full welding operation – as the welding operation progresses the environmental temperature cycles – the temperature cycling causes expansion and contraction Now think about that for a moment. If the last shift did welding a temperature X and the next shift starts at temperature Y = X – 10C (for arguments sake) a differential stress is built into the weld. So when the temperature returns to X there is a huge stress built into… Read more »

expat
expat
1 month ago

I would think if this is welded manually 10 deg difference is common, MS is welded at 1000 deg C, the welder working for 1 hour would input a lot of heat into the local structure then taking a 1 hour lunch it could easily cool 10 deg before they start welding again.

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago

Do they not use some form of automation ie a jig assembly with say heat pads either side of the weld to keep temperatures reasonably stable. Surely it would be quicker and more accurate then welding by hand! As you can tell, totally not my field!!!

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago

Based on what you are saying SB I would suggest that in the ‘good old days’ when each plate was fitted to the ‘hole’ it was going into the various different stresses would all even out as the hull grew as everything could ‘move’ over time.

However, building two complete halves of a ship creates two very rigid structures so when welding them together there is no possibility of the structure moving around a tiny bit so cause the issues you describe.

Cheers CR

Darren hall
Darren hall
1 month ago

Add to that one other question… What will happen to the weld when the ships are at sea?

Jay R
Jay R
1 month ago
Reply to  Darren hall

The welds are edge to edge. The deformation is due to the steel used on the upper structures, which is produced in coil form at the Mill and decoiled by stockholders. When you apply heat the steel tries to curl up back to it’s coiled state.

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  Jay R

If Sheet Steel originates from Coil I doubt it will want to deform when it is welded.

Jay R
Jay R
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

It does, I deal with it every day with laser cutting, welding, any heat applied releases the stresses. The steel that is not decoiled is more flat 15mm +. 15mm and below generally comes from coil. Shipbuilding steel Lloyds grade A. The main seel suppliers to BAe is Arcelor Mittal for plate, Tata for decoil and SSAB for armoured plate. It is all laser, plasma or flame cut, rolled and bent then welded.

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago

Having earlier read the Parliamentary minutes where the subject was bought up there is mention of different plate thicknesses which suggests to me the problem could be more to do with the superstructure rather than the Hull itself, but the problem still doesn’t make much sense to me.

George Parker
George Parker
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

Same here. Ships have been built outdoors for literally centuries. All over the British Isles with our lovely climate. Not forgetting other countries with far greater temperature changes than ours.
Is it a simply a case of the new ship building processes/procedures and materials being unsuitable for our climate. If so, which idiot agreed to it?
BAE share holders will see their stock prices increase along with the new Govan yard assets. To be honest, I’d rather see the investment made somewhere else in the UK, not SNP Scotland.

geoff
geoff
1 month ago

Morning Daniele. I, like you,know nothing about shipbuilding other than for example, my Grandfather told me he saw the Titanic launched and it was alleged that faulty rivets played a part in her demise! In general terms, it is alleged that Artisans ain’t what they used to be. Now that is a fact that most would agree with. The old fashioned disciplines and extreme attention to detail that characterised the trades of old are long gone. Today’s industry is characterised by replacement of components whether it be in ‘panelbeating’,electrical work or most other modern appliances. Industries evolve and the building… Read more »

Klonkie
Klonkie
1 month ago
Reply to  geoff

Geoff , How are tricks? Sample of 1 to illustrate your point. My new Samsung smart tv started playing up two weeks shy of its consumer legal 1 year warranty. Fella came round today to replace the screen.

My brother in law’s parents had a 1977 JVC Blaupunkt TV that lasted to the early 90’s.

Point made.

geoff
geoff
1 month ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Howsit Klonkie. All good and hope you are well.. The other example is new fridge vs old. Remember the big old fridges that were built like brick sh*t houses and despite their exterior dimensions were small inside because the body was so thick!! Lasted for decades.
Thought of you the other day reading about an SAAF raid on Maputo following the attack on SADF HQ in Pretoria. 10 Impalas flying low out and back. Precision stuff!
Cheers from Sunny durbs

Last edited 1 month ago by geoff
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

A possibility? Hopefully not another Ajax moment?

“Welding usually involves heating of the materials at the joint to fuse them together. This heat creates expansion and contraction. If the heating and cooling is uneven, distortion can occur. This distortion comes from residual stress.”

https://technoweld.com.au/2019/07/30/basics-of-distortion-in-welding/

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

😳 GB best placed to comment, or NAB, never seen him on this forum though?

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

And definitely good news under the circumstances!

The British and Danish navies have signed a co-operative agreement to work together to bring the UK Royal Navy’s (RN) Type 31 Inspiration-class frigates into service.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/naval-weapons/latest/uk-denmark-agree-to-collaborate-on-type-31-frigate-introduction-to-service

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Yes, excellent.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

It’s never too late to learn!

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

I thought we paid over the odds for the 5 OPVs so lessons would be learnt.
Apart from not reading instructions on the glue tin. It seems they stopped reading too soon when they got to the bit about Welding. Maybe they cant read?
I hope we aren’t paying for this infrastructure up front. They should have done it 8 years ago. Hey ho, Better late than never. Amazing what competition (Babcock) can do.

Andrew Robinson
Andrew Robinson
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Excellent news. I am struggling a bit to make sense of this article, if I am honest (surely they could have foreseen the welds degrading??) but British naval exports are generally undergoing a bit of a renaissance at the moment, long may it continue…

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

I very much hope so.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Yes, I saw this. Really good news. Demonstrates determination to meet early in service date for T31 and commitment to the Iver Huitfeldt hull for T32? The Iver Huitfeldt has 32 Mk41 vls and 24 Mk56 vls

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Yes, the Iver Huitfeldt is impressive and as you quite rightly say, well-armed for its size.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

It seems the joint working of Denmark and the UK goes further. Denmark is sending Harpoon to the Ukraine. My guess is that this it at the request of the UK. Perhaps the clock has been turned back a thousand years to Cnut. 🙂

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

I think that is why Space X are using a Welding Robot for all their major welds now… not that Texas weather is remotely like Scotland.

expat
expat
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

I think any company serious about repeatability of quality should be using robotics. Huntington Ingalls is investing heavily in robotics for welding, the days of robots being used for mass production only have gone.

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  expat

Lots of robotics welding company’s around, there is even some in the UK make products

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

More than likely!

George Parker
George Parker
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Obviously not a problem with good old rivets. Probably why that technique was chosen a century ago. Long before high tech welding became a thing.

I wonder if anyone has tested these new building techniques to destruction on the high seas?
HMS Sheffield comes to mind. One hell of a way to discover the design/construction shortcomings of that class of frigate.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  George Parker

Indeed, the worst way possible.

Marked
Marked
1 month ago

Ffs it’s 2022, ships have been welded for many decades now. Why the feck are we discovering a fundamental issue like this only now???

Last edited 1 month ago by Marked
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Marked

Because things are done to much much higher standards now.

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago

The Germans built their Pocket Battleships using welded steel in the 1930’s. Beautiful job they did too. We were at least 10 years behind then. Don’t tell me in fact its taken us 90 years to master the art.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonno

The issue as I read it. The hull is different thickness bottom to the top, then all the decks, walls etc etc. So they start somewhere and they found when they welded other sections and it all settled some bits were under much more stress than others. Now as a weld can be stronger than the actual metal around it that could then mean a thinner part of the ship could be really stressed while the thicker part is under stressed. The Australians expected this and are going to try and predict it. Same as anything metal you have likely… Read more »

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

I’m no expert on Shipbuilding but I’m pretty sure the Hull thickness would be uniform from the Keel to the Main Deck level.

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
1 month ago

Better late than never. Wondering if the facility will be large enough to cover the proposed type 83.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

They’ll consider that after it has been built 😫

ExcalibursTemplar
ExcalibursTemplar
1 month ago

The new shed looks twice as long as the old one going of the pics above.

EDIT: If anything the end picture doesn’t do the new build justice. As the roof should be blocking out the view of the road behind the new shed, due to the angle.

EDIT2: Going of google map and using the map key. It seems to be roughly 90 m * 185 m. If you clear around the edges, it could be as big as 100 m * 200 m

Last edited 1 month ago by ExcalibursTemplar
Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago

It’s worth noting that the design above is just George’s artistic impression, so the potential for a different design is quite high!

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago

Sure it will be it’s unlikely that will be much bigger than what’s being built now especially if it is based on the T26 as some have suggested. The basin certainly looks capable of providing the necessary space required.

John Clark
John Clark
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

There appears to be a desire for a substantially larger platform of 12,000 tons in some quarters for T83.

Personally, I would use as much T26 as possible, maybe with an extended Hull to try and keep things under control.

A really large new vessel risks run away costs and development complications, we need at least 9.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  John Clark

It would be just nice if the T83 came earlier in the 30s than late 30s, to really beef up the fleet capabilities. It all sounds so far away. I wonder if there’s any possibility of coordinating with US or Italian DDGXs designs that seem to be already well developed?

expat
expat
1 month ago

I believe only the forward and after sections were joined outside the blocks that made up these sections were built inside. Like most poster on here I find this a bit odd, let hope there’s no dodgy clauses in the contract saying the MoD pick up costs for any issues due to outside build 🙂 . Either way now its a know issue it shouldn’t impact the next 2 hulls.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  expat

Well let’s hope that apart from the obvious join between front and back it doesn’t effect anything major in the hull itself, just the elements subsequently added to it. I guess we can live with it as long as it doesn’t do any sudden sharp turns though that might be the fiendish MoD plan to double our ship numbers. Mind you one presumes the mast will always be joined outside unless they produce a ‘Highbay’. The obvious question arises what about the carriers? This seems to me to be a little more wide ranging than simply welding outside.

expat
expat
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

The article mentions thickness from top to bottom of the hull varying so I assume masts or other items added at the same level don’t have the same issues. I would agree the their perhaps more to this than just working outside.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

I belieeve the mast is carbon fibre and was built in Norway! So I hope they don’t try welding it onto the ship – could the very expensive.

Cheers CR

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

The mast itself had a steel base (pre-joined over there), so there would have been some welding involved!

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Lusty

I think they were bolting the mast in place. Any heat conducted through the steel into the the carbon fibre would damage the bonding.

Cheers CR

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

I was mistaken earlier.

The mast itself is attached to a plate. This combination is then delivered and a joined to a much larger steel module manufactured in the UK. The section is then lifted and welded in place, with the method used to attach the mast itself providing some insurance for the composite. I should imagine it’s done with some care and experience as well (at least, you’d hope so!) – previous projects such as T45 use composites to an extent, but T26 is the first to have a full section made from it.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Lusty

Ah, OK that would make more sense.

Thanks Lusty

Cheers CR

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Always a pleasure to engage with you, CR.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

It won’t be carbon fibre.

Carbon fibre is conductive as so will block or enhance certain RF and would be a nightmare in certain situations.

It is GRP / Kevlar / Technora on a frame with a steel base.

I posted the links last year.

Ron
Ron
1 month ago

Did we not put the blocks of the QE class together outside. Possibly the issue is not that it is done outside but that it has not been supported correctly and is possbly starting to bulge.

expat
expat
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron

I’d tend to agree, this is not the first hull joined outside so points to some other issue.

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron

First thing I thought of too, the QE was put together outside.

Challenger
Challenger
1 month ago

Could it be that BAE didn’t feel the need to invest in a proper ship assembly hall when they had a total monopoly on major ship construction but now that Babcock have stumped up the funds to enable 2 frigates to be build side by side in a covered facility at Rosyth the penny has dropped that they need to keep up or risk losing work in the medium-long term future?

David Steeper
David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  Challenger

🤔🤔👍👍

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Challenger

Very very good point a little bit of competition is a good thing. Either you have two separate complex warship manufactures so you allow completion or you have a single joint state owned, private owned business, having a single private company monopoly can be the worst of worlds if your not careful….

Suportive Bloke
Suportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Challenger

Spot on.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 month ago
Reply to  Challenger

It was probably more to do with that BAE had plans to build a frigate factory when they got the order for 13 type 26, global combat ships, frigates as promised. When the government only ordered 3 and promised 5 more it was a bit of a slap in the face for them. While 8 total will most likely be ordered, remember there was promises of 12 type 45 etc. I know they order in batches but a government promise isn’t worth what it maybe once was. It will be simple business facts as well. Can they build 8 ships… Read more »

Challenger
Challenger
1 month ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

I take your points but on the flip side BAE were awarded the contract for 5 OPV’s when the T26 order was cut. The frigate schedule has also been deliberately slowed to ensure enough work until T83 is required.

On the flip side Babcock have only been guaranteed 5 T31’s but have decided to invest in Rosyth to bid for T32 and potentially take on export orders alongside the Royal Navy’s.

Matt
Matt
1 month ago

Hmmm.

So this is instead of demolishing the wotsit-wotsit listed thing.

Does this become a covered dry-dock or a shed on the new bit of shore?

All interesting.

Sean the real Sean
Sean the real Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Matt

Am not Scottish or English or even in the same Hemisphere But i do want heritage saved , your heritage .

apoplectix
apoplectix
1 month ago

Looking at the site on Google maps surely another option would be to build the new assemby halls on the current BAE car park and scrub land on the opposite side of the wet basin. Then all you have to do is move the car park and build teh hall. And you can still use the wet basin for mooring ships. Theer is loads of land there which seems to be doing very little.

Rfn_Weston
Rfn_Weston
1 month ago

I’ve worked in the manufacturing and engineering sector for some time now post military and distortion in welds can be caused by residual stress in the steel during and after thermal expansion as someone else mentioned. Plate is usually cold rolled so a lot of residual stress is present in the steel even if it has been quenched & tempered to a particular mechanical range after rolling. That being said in this day and age it is widely know about and there are numerous ways to combat it such as shot peening, heat/laser treatment. Even some cryogenic treatments can be… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Rfn_Weston

We should have an insight into solving the problem using this process. It’s the full life expectancy that worries me just a tad. “CRYSTAL CITY, Va. (APRIL 5, 2021) The F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) teamed up with engineers at U.S. Fleet Readiness Center East (FRCE) in Cherry Point, North Carolina, and laser technology professionals to strengthen the airframe of the U.S. Marine Corps short take-off-vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B. In February 2021, the first F-35B was inducted at the FRCE to receive the procedure, known as laser shock peening, to enable the aircraft to reach its full structural life limit.… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago

I am not an expert on this, but…..
Would it not be better to build this new hall at an angle to the river, so future, longer designs could be launched with ease. I think T45 only just missed the opposite bank when launched. T45 just over 500 ft, County class 520 ft, WW2 cruisers often 555 ft. I suspect T83 will end up somewhere between 520 & 555 ft.

Alan Mcshane
Alan Mcshane
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

T45 was launched at an angle look at the slips in front of the halls. I was fortunate to be there for Duncan. No dynamic launches anymore as the are floated away on a barge to the lower Clyde. Lowered into the oggin then towed back up to scotston.

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

John Browns dug out the opposite bank so they could launch the Battle Cruisers, 800ft plus. Hope there isn’t a tower bock opposite!
I have a soft spot for Glasgow where btw you can buy boat bits that would cost twice as much down south.
All this goes to show we should have a law against building luxury apartments on the shore near existing or viable sites for ship/boat yards. A National Register would be a good plan if we are to get serious about these industries again.

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
1 month ago

I am curious if they are having trouble with the welds now. How will they fair once she is in the water ?
I know that wooden boats can have big problems if left out of the water for too long but this is a modern metal warship constructed with the very latest welding techniques.

Jon
Jon
1 month ago

This is good news.

So all the talk about having to move the old structures to preserve them is circumvented. Presumably this design has a downside, or a quick chat with the planning authorities would have made them submit this in the first place rather than wait however many months the old plan has been under consideration.

Once this is okayed, perhaps the batch 2 contract will follow.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

I’m guessing that the down size if cost. Fulling in that basin won’t be cheap as moving aggregates and site spoil to and from a building site is a pretty expensive process as you can only move 20 to 40 tons at a time depending on access. This will be expecially with the cost of diesel these days.

Cheers CR

Matt
Matt
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Come in by sea, surely?

Christopher Allen
Christopher Allen
1 month ago

Ah! Just what we need, even more of our shipbuilding infrastructure focused one part of the country, you know… the part often moaning about independence… what could be the problem if they were ever to vote for it.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago

No that part of the country (aka Scotland) doesn’t man about independence, just a political party. Which is why the SNP lost the referendum.

Suportive Bloke
Suportive Bloke
1 month ago

The issue is the workforce and not the shed. The shed itself is pretty easy to replicate and IRL it might actually be better to do what AUS are doing and creating a new site from scratch that is totally optimised for modern ship building. The cost of doing that is not that massive compared to the efficient savings. In manufacturing you spend a lot of time optimising the production line. Even in picking warehouses there is a lot of effort to get things like that 100% right. Then you start doing ballet with large lumps of metal and the… Read more »

Daveyb
Daveyb
1 month ago

Does make you wonder why BAe have two separate sites on the Clyde, instead of just the one site. In the bad old days of the Unions I can understand. But today where quality assurance and keeping down costs are the key drivers, having everything on one site would be beneficial for the manufacturer and the client.

Last edited 1 month ago by Daveyb
ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Daveyb

All true, but I think there is an issue with the size of the sites and depth of water combining to give BAE Systems an expensive headache.

As SB points out it is the trained workforce. It takes years to train skill engineering workers, that’s why they weree reserved occupations during WW2.

Cheers CR

Daveyb
Daveyb
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Then why stay so far up river, where there are so many complications? There are lots of older sites further down river, that have been flattened and are awaiting redevelopment.

I don’t disagree with the workforce aspect. How difficult would it be for places like Chatham, or the Tyne to look at large ship construction again? I’d say it would be very difficult to start from scratch, but given time it would be doable.

Ianbuk
Ianbuk
1 month ago

I don’t go with the ‘workforce being there’ thing. I live in an area where Geordies and Scots moved down to follow industry moves. One massive housing estate has the nickname ‘jock estate as it’s 95% Scots living there who work in this industry. Corby is an older example. I thought I was in Scotland the first time I went there.

Workforces move where they can work, be it down the river in Glasgow, Devonport or the other side of the world.

Christopher Allen
Christopher Allen
1 month ago

And what will the cost be in a possible future where Scotland gets independence?

How much will it be to build new shipbuilding facilities and train new staff because we stupidly decided to appease the Scottish nationalists and keep investing in Scotland instead of distributing the workload over the UK. This is exactly why I despised Cameron’s government for closing shipbuilding at Portsmouth.

Last edited 1 month ago by Christopher Allen
Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 month ago

Would be a tight turn onto the water wouldnt it? They would only be able to load the barge longitudally in the shed and then it would have to rotate the barge horizontal to orient itself on the river in the mouth of the dock.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
1 month ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Might have to demolish the end of the pier to improve space as I doubt they would want to demolish the slipway on the other side.

Ambivalent Lurker
Ambivalent Lurker
1 month ago

Bit of an odd one this as the Type 45’s and QEC’s were assembled/integrated outside as are most large ships nowadays (eg the tide class tankers were all built outside in the Daewoo shipyard drydocks in South Korea) All the T45’s were also assembled on the slipway at Govan so the weather issue sounds like a bit of an oversimplification at best. I would reckon that the weld deformation being discussed is something that is being managed (nothing is truly solid/stable, all metals move and all welds deform and flex to some degree as you build up structures) as opposed… Read more »

Jonno
Jonno
27 days ago

Maybe cutting open the hull to fit machinery delivered late wasn’t such a good plan.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago

Hopefully this might be a prelude to building more than 8 type 26 frigates. We can live in hope.

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I would like to see a couple more being built as well, but I would like to see an improved SAMPON radar fitted, if only to derisk the next generation radar for the T83. BAe Systems annouced sometime ago that the ARTISAN radar would not be developed any further so by the time we completed ships 9 and 10 they would be sailnig with obsolete radar, so another good reason to develop SAMPSON for an extended T26 run. I am not suggesting that any third batch of ships be anything other than ASW ships just that there needs to be… Read more »

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Like your last paragraph. If only they could slot in a couple more ASW or AAW T26s in the same time frame prior to T83.
More UK ships for our CSGs to reduce over dependence on our allies who’ll need for they’d own Ops.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I wonder if the USN would ever consider the ASW T26 as a follow on to their first batch of the FREMM based Constellation class? Hopefully a T26 will be in the water by then!

Andrew
Andrew
1 month ago

Does the government not care about ship building in the rest of the UK? Everything going to Scotland. Will be interesting when they get independence.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew

Do warplanes get built elsewhere than Lancashire?

Scotland is part of the UK and the majority don’t even want a 2nd referendum, never mind leave.

Daveyb
Daveyb
1 month ago

I get what you mean.

BAe’s Warton site does both final assembly and construction. Whereas their Samlesbury site just make parts, such as for the F35 and then ships the bits over to Lockheed Martin in the States. There are other manufacturers around the country and within Europe who also make parts for the Typhoon, that then get shipped to Warton.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew

The ship builders are in Glasgow and rosyth and have been for a long long time. What do you propose? Asking all the trained staff to move to England just to keep some people from moaning. I imagine the answer would be nah. Northern Ireland isn’t possible as they elected sinn fien recently. Can’t be Wales they have plaid and they want Independence. So it’s England then. Which already has the lions share of stuff. Actually the way it gets moaned by I’m presuming English people is so boring. The U.K. is not England only. We are equal partners. Not… Read more »

Mike
Mike
1 month ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

If they can’t weld correctly, if they glue bolts on, do these people really count as trained experts?

But being serious, why was this not forseen? There have been plans to build a Glasgow frigate factory since about 2014, so why was it not done if welding outside in Scottish climates is not good? Was it simply that bae wanted hmg to pay for it but their bluff was called? Babcock certainly appear to be showing bae how it should be done, at cost yet still with profit.

Shelley
Shelley
1 month ago
Reply to  Mike

Mike, this is unfounded speculation. How can you know if Babcock are building ‘at cost and still with a profit’? It’s far too early in the production cycle – I bet they don’t even know. All they’ll have is a predicted cost-timeline vs actual spend. We shall see, especially if ultimate profitability was predicated on exports (it’s the T31e, remember?). Which have barely happened yet. BAE all but turned away from the original competition, stating it was a ‘race to the bottom’. I can see why they thought that. As for glued boltheads, my penny’th of speculation is that some… Read more »

Ianbuk
Ianbuk
1 month ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Sorry if the comments have pricked your persecution complex, but it’s a valid point. The only nation within the UK to have an independence referendum was Scotland, it was a close thing even so. My issue is places like Northern Ireland, Wales and England need to have vital national security work shared to give everyone a sense of stake holding our country. Maybe not these type of ships, but weapons manufacture and development. The UK needs to have a national security and infrastructure policy, like the US and France have. We should make as much of it’s own military and… Read more »

Shelley
Shelley
1 month ago
Reply to  Ianbuk

Wales has had 3 referenda since 1997. Not for outright independence (it wasn’t on offer) but for a semi-autonomous National Assembly, with law-making powers. That was an outright win. My guess (as someone who lives here) is that Wales will always want more autonomy (eg. tax-raising powers) but never full independence.

I totally agree with your last few sentences, although I think you may have an inflated view as to Scotland’s primacy in the defence industry. Shipbuilding, radar and some other electronics yes. But most of the high-tech stuff is in England: South coast, Bristol, North-West.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
1 month ago
Reply to  Shelley

Pretty much my point that Scotland isn’t getting all the defence contracts. The value in the ships isn’t really the metal bashing it’s all the stuff inside it. While it does generate wages that’s about it. Scotland doesn’t make the steel, engines, systems, missiles etc etc that all comes from around the U.K. Even if independence did happen(which it won’t in the next 10 years at least) there would be a long period to adjust and it would a very close relationship with the remains of the U.K. perhaps if it didn’t keep getting brought up every day the U.K.… Read more »

Ianbuk
Ianbuk
27 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

I understand and support your view on the work front. You have to understand that here down south we hear of fresh calls two to three times a month. Of course, if you are in Scotland, it might be like water off a duck’s back. Not down here. I would support more work being pushed around the country, providing it was made clear that “this is UK funded work and stays in its current location only while part of the United Kingdom”. Any independence vote will see it moved irrespective of reasons. Maybe that would garner more support for these… Read more »

Jonno
Jonno
27 days ago
Reply to  Ianbuk

Defence would be good for national productivity.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew

They’re not getting independence because they don’t want it. Don’t drink the SNP cool-aid 🤷🏻‍♂️

Steve M
Steve M
1 month ago

surely the wet basin is required for final fitting out once floated? there doesn’t appear to be any other place in the BAE yard that can be used for the fitting out and post sea trials work etc, is Glasgow not due in the water late this year? but not due in service til 2027 by that time will be at least 1 more in the water for fitting out etc

Last edited 1 month ago by Steve M
Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve M

The wet basin is likely surplus to their current requirements.

The ships are constructed here and moved onto a barge for floating, before being moved to BAE’s facility at Scotstoun for final fitting.

Steve M
Steve M
1 month ago
Reply to  Lusty

Thanks Lusty

expat
expat
1 month ago
Bob
Bob
1 month ago

I don’t get this country sometimes. If we require a modern facility then tear the old one down and rebuild. Stuff heritage, its a factory not a cathedral.

Suportive Bloke
Suportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob

Maybe.

Maybe it is a better idea?

But it might actually make more sense to use the existing sheds for block fabrication and then to join the blocks and outfit in the new mega shed?

Just a thought?

Bob
Bob
1 month ago

Whatever is the best option is fine by me. I just don’t want to see months of delays and cost overruns caused by expensive “Planning reviews”

How our Victorian ancestors would weep if they could see the current state of the UK.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob

I do agree, I’m not sure we need to be preserving industrial buildings unless they have some very specific national meaning.

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob

Just seen you used the same comparison as me below (leaving out the ‘stuff history’ bit)!
Rgs

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago

Just trying to work out if they could build two 26s side by side ?

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

My guess is that it will have to given that even with the current slow construction rate they are building two at the same time.

Cheers CR

Pacman27
Pacman27
1 month ago

I think there is room for further improvement here George,

By joining the last shed of the current bock and extending it to the same length as those in the dock you could get 3 ships in side by side with the final far right shed having a slipway. This would allow first 2 shed to create blocks and for the 3 sheds to the right to have ships in various states of build.

This would probably maximise investment substantially and create the frigate factory we have all been waiting for.

Pacman27
Pacman27
1 month ago

I wonder if my comment on this site here got a few people in BAE thinking..

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-photos-and-videos-show-hms-glasgow-in-build/

I would like to think every now and again something does get through to the powers that me. Remember TD designated the T31 before it was even a thing.

probably nothing to do with my comment – but I am taking credit anyway…..

donald_of_tokyo
donald_of_tokyo
1 month ago

Not much interested in the deformation issue. It can be easily fixed or need big work, we do not know. Anyway, it is surely “can be handled”, beucause so many ships are built outside worldwide. What I am sure is, it is not a “first to see” problem. On the other hand, the new hall design looks great. Reasonable choice, and will surely improve T26 build process after hull-4, hence reducing the cost. What is more, it will also relax the BAES workforce/engineers’ man-power, which will enable either speed up T26 build, so that “a few T32” can be replaced… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by donald_of_tokyo
Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
1 month ago

Couple of thoughts. If there is any export market for a UK built T26, then it might be Norway, who would seem to be a good candidate for either T26, or a variant closer to the the Canadian CSC, with greater AAW capability. So additive to a prospect for increased UK T26 numbers. I can’t think of any other likely export prospects for a UK build. The mood music, based on recent MoD minister comments, doesn’t seem to be for maintaining a large River-class type of OPV fleet over time. So B1 and ultimately B2 Rivers may be replaced by… Read more »

donald_of_tokyo
donald_of_tokyo
1 month ago

Thanks. I agree T26 build-export is highly unlikely to happen. On OPV future, there is not sign of River B1 replacements, I agree. Basic plan will be to send a T31 (or two) “east”, and put-back 2 River B2 to replace the 2 River B1s to cover EEZ/Fishery/FRE (Russian/Chinese ship escort) duties (not sure on the training ship role of the 3rd River B1). Falkland tasks alone do not need helicopter hanger, land-based support is there. Good with HMS Forth. But, South Georgia tasks may better be with a hangar. For Caribbean, depends. So, I agree there is a room… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
30 days ago

An advantage of using T31 in the Falklands or the Caribbean is that they don’t have to deploy with a helicopter, but they always have the option to do so, or have one transported out to a local airport if urgently needed for a HADR role for example. But I agree that otherwise its probably more of a nice-to-have capability for those roles, especially given the increasing capabilities of UAS. It will be interesting to see where the base crew level will be established for T31. Babcock suggest starting at under 100 for A140, but in permissive locations/roles it might… Read more »

Jacko
Jacko
1 month ago

Does this mean Glasgow isn’t going to be ready on time or god forbid another disaster in the making?

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
1 month ago

Seems like a logical adaption of the basin with minimal if any planning application issues. Mind you, I may be something of a heathen, but I did not understand the sanctity of the old building listing. Now I appreciate our history as much as any, but they’re sheds, not cathedrals or the like, are they not? I think the Victorians would have taken one look, and if they interfered with productivity, they’d have been out of there sharpish. I anticipate someone can rapidly appraise me, though. According to the other recent article on this subject, there’s mention that:- Australia..are using… Read more »

George Parker
George Parker
1 month ago

Why Glascow?
If the SNP have their way, it’s as good as giving it to a competitive adversary. There are numerous places in England, Wales and Northern Ireland that would give huge incentives for such an investment. This is simply more eggs placed in the same questionable basket. I understand it is cheaper and convenient for BAE, utilising the existing infrastructure. But surely it is time to make contingency plans for the inevitable. What better time than now, with orders on the books and a predicted recession on the way.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  George Parker

It’s not inevitable 🤦🏻‍♂️

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

You just know whenever a Scots centric article appears it’s same old, same old.

Puts me off bothering to read them. It’s like being a fireman putting out the endless doom.

Not UKDJs fault either, as G is Scottish so we will have these articles.

George Parker
George Parker
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Plan for the worst but hope for the best. Let the Nationalists know their actions and continued agitations have consequences. LOSS OF INVESTMENT AND JOBS!
Just out of interest, how many elected officials do the SNP have in total. Hmm.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  George Parker

Plan for the worst? Hmm, invasion by giant alien insects from outer space that see humans as tasty treats? Giant solar flare that burns off the entire atmosphere? All similarly improbable events.

Beating people with a stick doesn’t encourage them to feel good towards you, it more likely makes them resent you… A lesson Putin is learning in Ukraine.

PragmaticScot
PragmaticScot
27 days ago
Reply to  George Parker

What an odd way to look at things, insisting on work moving away from Scotland just plays into the hands of nationalists. Is Northern Ireland really an option if you’re suggesting moving the work due to nationalists? England already has the lions share of work with regards to air and land systems not to mention submarines and most of the technology that actually goes into the ships.

The work is spread across the UK, sadly people like to fixate on the final assembly location.

Heidfirst
Heidfirst
1 month ago

I still don’t understand why the previous preferred site for the frigate factory at BAe Scotstoun, where the land was previously all cleared for it & remains so, isn’t the go to. It’s also right beside the fitting out area although given the way that they are launched these days that may be of no particular advantage.
Obviously, BAe will have their reasons but (as a very local) it would be nice to know their thinking & why it has changed.

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  Heidfirst

I was going to say the same thing. With a large amount of vacant land, they could probably build a large factory there, with room for multiple hulls, blocks and ships in fit-out. They could even plan ahead for any future orders from the UK government or even foreign customers (something akin to Babcocks’ contract with Ukraine). In addition, they could at least allow for the facility to be essentially future-proofed for the next generation of projects, be it T83, patrol vessels or whatever else. Govan could be retained or sold off, depending on their needs. It seems odd to… Read more »

tomuk
tomuk
1 month ago
Reply to  Lusty

Who is the MSP for the Govan constituency?

Heidfirst
Heidfirst
1 month ago
Reply to  tomuk

Not sure where BAe Govan falls – either Glasgow Southside (in which case Nicola Sturgeon) or, I think more likely, Pollok in which case Humza Yousaf

Heidfirst
Heidfirst
1 month ago
Reply to  Lusty

The originally planned facility was for the, equally originally planned, 12 T26 order – so presumably large enough to build whatever is likely to be ordered in the future & that can still transit the Clyde from the yard. Perhaps too large now in which case it could be scaled back? That land at Scotstoun is zoned as industrial in the latest City Plan & imo that is unlikely to change (who wants to live beside a working shipyard anyway?). It potentially could be developed as an industrial estate of units but there are already plenty of empty existing industrial… Read more »

Wolf
Wolf
1 month ago

Bit off topic but interesting. “Biden willing to use force to defend Taiwan.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-meets-japanese-emperor-start-visit-launch-regional-economic-plan-2022-05-23/

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Wolf

I’m very glad & relieved to hear it. Sends all the right signals to PRC. Pity no such consideration was or is being shown to the Ukraine where Biden & Boris let Putin invade & then leave Ukraine to do all the dirty work with millions displaced & widespread terror & devestation. Deeply ashamed we haven’t intervened. We need to step in before free, democratic, independent sovereign nations both we & the invaders guarantee invade.
Biden dropped the ball disasterously over Afghanistan & Ukraine.

Also off topic, does anyone know the new Aussi PMs stance on China?

Wolf
Wolf
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

I just don’t think they believe Ukraine was worth risking nuclear weapons. The thing with Taiwan is that supplies most of the world’s microchips and if China gained control of that then it would be a complete disaster. Not only that but also a strategic disaster for the US as Taiwan would become China’s unsinkable supercarrier able to reach out into the Pacific – there are obviously a whole host of things we could talk about why Taiwan is worth defending probably especially the fact that it’s a battle against communism in general. Regarding Australia – Morrison definitely had a… Read more »

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Wolf

Risk of nuclear war certainly didn’t deter Putin & we were too weak to provide the leadership needed. So we let Ukraine go(hopefully Russia wil fail) but if not it will be another nation & so on until we’re forced to do what we should’ve done for Ukraine.
Putin for all his faults picked a near perfect time for our weak leadership & minimal forces. Maybe that’s what all those Russian donations bought, or maybe it’s just the dire leadership we have.

Wolf
Wolf
30 days ago
Reply to  Frank62

Yes, this is certainly a time for renewed strong leadership.

Frank62
Frank62
1 month ago
Reply to  Wolf

Thanks Wolf.

Jonno
Jonno
1 month ago
Reply to  Wolf

We are seeing just how vital Ukraine is in terms of World food supply. Strategically if it falls it leaves Hungary, Romania, Slovenia and Poland directly facing Russia. Russia then holds the interior lines and the Black Sea. This is very bad. I think we should draw a line and say to Russia so far and no further and say, you stay East of the Dnieper or you are at war with us.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Frank62

I’m all for ensuring the freedom of democracy, the thing about Taiwan is you have to be very very careful due the the history. You have to remember that Taiwan is actual the government of the Repubilc of China, this is actual the historic government of the whole of China from 1911 to post war china…it was actually the losing side of the Chinese civil war and in reality that is a war in which both side never actually ended. The government of the Republic of China retreated to Taiwan and actual keep fighting infact both the the Chinese’s government… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Jonathan
Wolf
Wolf
30 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

This is definitely something analysts, strategists and policy advisors will be taking into consideration when dealing with the threat China poses.

Jonathan
Jonathan
30 days ago
Reply to  Wolf

I think they probably wish Joe Biden would not make definitive statements…..ambiguous is best in these cases unless it’s down to the wire.

Sidney
Sidney
1 month ago

I may be way off base here, but isn’t the wet basin needed for the fitting out of the vessels once constructed? My understanding is that the majority of testing and the more comprehensive fitting of sensors/launchers etc is undertaken after launch. I don’t see an obvious mooring location if the wet basin is lost.

Heidfirst
Heidfirst
1 month ago
Reply to  Sidney

they move to BAe Scotstoun just downriver.

Sidney
Sidney
1 month ago
Reply to  Heidfirst

Thanks Heidfirst. Just seen Lusty’s response below as well. There i was thinking that we’d have a very British planning farce only to be unable to fit out our new shiny frigates. Lol

Colin Thorburn
Colin Thorburn
1 month ago

Being a boilermaker/welder and laterally welding inspector and quality engineer, building indoors presents a solution to weather induced problems like hydrogen cracking, downtime due to inclement weather, being able to complete all aspects of a build in a dry safe environment. Lessens the possibility of electric shock from welding. The positives are endless. Comfort for the workers not having to work in wet/windy/cold/ hot environments. It’s a win win win situation for all all.