The UK has two major warship-building yards, one in Rosyth and the other on the Clyde and both in Scotland.
The following exchange happened as the Scottish Affairs Committee held its first evidence session as part of its inquiry, Defence in Scotland: Military Personnel and Estate.
John Lamont MP asked:
“Notwithstanding what you said previously, do you think Scotland is proportionately better off than the rest of the UK in its share of defence investment?”
Professor Trevor Taylor, Director of the Defence, Industries and Society Programme at RUSI, responded:
“Yes. As Phillips said, it is difficult to get the numbers but if you look at the policy statements and strategies and some of the commitments that are in place, you can see that Scotland is pretty central. At the end of 2020, we had the commitment to increase defence spending to make the equipment affordable. Following that, we had the defence and security industrial strategy, which is very beneficial. When you look at the sub-strategies in place, you have combat air strategy—Tempest—and Scotland is enormously important for Tempest because of Leonardo’s activities in Edinburgh. I cannot overstate the importance of Leonardo’s capability. It is a very long-standing thing. It was Ferranti back in the day. Combat air benefits Scotland.
The naval shipbuilding strategy will be widened, which has enormous implications, and that is linked to the commitment to the Type 26 and to the Type 31 and Type 32. Things could change but that does not look likely. It is setting the UK up to have two major warship-building yards, one in Rosyth and the other on the Clyde, two companies, Babcock and BAE, which is enormously beneficial.
The Government’s space strategy implies doing things for some of the more remote areas of Scotland with a launch site. Defence spending on complex weapons—because we are not buying only imported weapons—is very important for sites in the Hebrides. The Hebrides range is a very special capability for testing our complex weapons.
Yes, I think Scotland does very well and there are important industrial aspects. I know the nuclear submarine piece is a very divisive issue in Scotland but we should not forget that Thales makes a very important part of submarines and they have a very big optics and wider electro-optics business based in Scotland. Overall, the Navy is very significant. Submarines are a permanent thing on the Clyde. I don’t know if another committee will be looking at the impact on Devonport of moving submarines from there.
Overall, Scotland does come out pretty well in my view. We know that defence spending in the UK is not spread evenly per 100,000 people across different regions but Scotland does quite well.”
You can read the full session here.
I’m in mourning-the Celts beat the Gers😩
HMS Glasgow starting to look very much like a warship!!
Yeep HMS Glasgow is starting to look like a nice warship, you know what they say if it looks right then it is right.. I just wish that Wales had the same ammount of defence expenditure put into the nation as Scotland has. God we could do with the work and feel a part of defence.
There are no NATO Centres of Excellence in the UK. Maybe Wales could find out what’s missing (or next on the list), Military AI and Autonomous Systems perhaps, and create one. Or nick one from Germany. They have three.
says a lot that the country that benefits most from NATO puts the least in – both in monetary and commitment terms.
Latvia? No, they contribute just fine.
A delicate balancing act at this present time after Merkels reign, either invest heavily with NATO or have your Gas switched off
If or when the Russians go into Kiev will they treat the Ukrainian women well or not? The Germans need to shape up.
Cheeky lot those Germans. NATO is their hedge of protection, paid for by the USA, against Russia, who they actively pursue through their energy policies.
In-directly the USA seems to be subsidising the heating of the average German’s home.
Has wales not got Ajax? I meant that honestly not as a joke. Is raf training base not in wales also?
True, Wales does have Ajax and RAF training, yet Wales was meant to get a military training college at St Athens and some other MoD projects that got the go ahead and then scrapped. The new infrastucture that was built in St Athens under the name Project Red Dragon was a partnership of the MoD, DARA and the Welsh Development Agaency in 2003 was then closed in 2007. We have no front line RAF units, three army bases, two of which are for rotational troops going through training in the Brecons and one for reserve troops in Cardiff and no… Read more »
Is not DECA (Defence Electronics and Components Agency) a Ministry of Defence owned trading agency based at MoD Sealand in North Wales? DECA provides the specialist avionics, maintenance, repair, overhaul, upgrade and obsolescence management capability for a diverse range of military avionic and electronic equipment. The UK has been awarded a second major assignment of work worth some £500-million by the US Department of Defense as the global repair hub for maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade services for the F-35 aircraft avionic and aircraft components. This recent assignment supports hundreds of additional F-35 jobs in the UK – many of them at the at… Read more »
Details here…
UK selected as Global f-35 Repair Hub
UK wins £500m global support work
But apart from that what have the MoD ever done for us…?😉
There is a lot less to go around now. I think geography plays a big part for the raf in Scotland. I can’t think of any new bases that have been built in Scotland recently. Maybe Wales could get one of the army super barracks allocated. I was surprised the e-7 went to Lossiemouth but I suppose it makes sense with p-8 being there. The party in power in Scotland has always had one of their key policies is to fight for independence among others. So it will always be on the discussion. A lot of the time the topic… Read more »
Boris might want to divert some of the Scotish work to Wales dispite the rock solid support he has received of late😂
The facts speak for themselves. However, I never met nor heard a Nationalist moved by facts. Meanwhile, in the real world we have some brilliant people working in many parts of the U.K. and need them as much now as we ever did.
Does make you wonder, if BAe had built the frigate factory how much time would have been saved? Having the ship completely constructed under cover and then launched directly from the shed, must save time surely?
Babcock’s T31 shed definitely looks the way forward. Being capable of building two ships side by side, plus the option of further extending the shed for longer ships. Bae definitely missed a trick with not investing in the frigate factory.
The factory certainly would’ve been quicker, but the real thing slowing T26 is the Treasury’s way of paying for things. Their refusal to front the cash instead of paying over many years is the reason for artificially slowing the build schedule.
Right on. The treasury making the MOD drip feed these major projects from frigates to Tempest & is the devil when it comes to over runs on time and cost. China would have built these frigates by now and Tempest would be testing in the air.
The J20 program started in 2002 and is still struggling to get its engine right and that is a 5th Gen rather than 5.5/6th Gen aircraft plus they got a lot of help from the Americans😈 remember. Let’s not give them mythical prowess like we did far too often with the Germans and their technology.
I agree but there is also the QA piece of doing things in a regulated environment where you don’t get soaked or freezing cold every time you go for a break, or to stores etc.
The efficiency and quality gain of treating humans like humans is well worth it in my experience anyway.
It also help is word get round that somewhere is a good working environment helps recruitment and retention.
The Treasury view is that every department has an annual budget and it is up thedepartment to plan its procurement accordingly. The core problem is that the service budgets are way too small and especially so for equipment. The RAF fast jet budget can only afford 6 aircraft a year, the navy’s warship budget can’t afford even oner T26 ship a year, the build is being stretched out to 18 months because that is all the equipment budget can afford. The Treasury would have to put a ginormous number of billions on the table to pay for equipment up front.… Read more »
“It will never happen”…Unless we’re on the brink of war.
No they don’t have to put down ginormous amounts up front. They don’t have to put anything down up front. They just have to think creatively and all sorts of solutions become available that aren’t perfect but are better than slowing the drumbeat. I’ll outline one solution for you to show you what I mean. Let’s say the RN wants to buy ten frigates, which if built at the rate of one a year would cost £1bn each. The MoD is willing to spend up to £10bn, and all should be easy. But the budget is £800m pa and they… Read more »
OT – any one else seen on Twitter the destruction of the Warrior CSP prototypes?
They don’t waste time do they. A change of mind on Warrior would be such a sensible thing to do!
Do you have a link Danielle? What is it with this country destroying any bit of kit it doesn’t want!! Chuck it in a shed fgs you never know it may come in handy one day.
Don’t worry I found it, what a waste
It’s unbelievable. It’s almost as if they are making sure it can not be resurrected. Cancelling the Warrior decision should be an easy decision as a Boxer with a MG is not an IFV.
Boxer with a 105mm Cockerill turret could be interesting. Being tested on the continent, last I heard.
Might need them soon.
They did the same thing to the three TSR2 flying test aircraft and all the Nimrods. In the case of the TSR2 they then totalled the tooling and bulldozed the factory just to make sure a change of government couldn’t resurect the project. They will in all probability do the same to the Tranche 1 Typhoons, after stripping out the engines and all the useable spares.
The Russians will be falling over themselves laughing.
David, on this occasion I totally agree with you!
What a criminal waste, it’s not as if the defense estate is short of warehousing, hangers and sheds. Did they do the same with the Pacscat landing craft and the 155mm naval gun equipment when those trials were cut short?
Also since we are OT, the same goes for old weapon systems, we should be storing them as well and not so readily deposing them. What happened to the sub, air launched, ground launch Harpoon missiles and the stocks ofsea eagle missiles? I know the systems must degrade over time, but with correct storage they could have been of some use? Ground launched Harpoons could have been refurbished and gifted to Ukraine at this time?
I don’t know GMD.
All good Daniele, it was more of a rant then a legitimate question. I just hate the waste that the MOD seems comfortable with.
I agree, they make some very strange decisions. We have CHE buildings that could store some stuff. I’m not sure if old missiles like Sea Eagle would be viable now, think they have a shelf life.
Whatever, they should have replaced them.
Rant away, we all do it!
Agree Sea Eagle should have been replaced. I’m sure there will be growing urgency to close that gap.
I don’t usually join the clamour for new ASM on our ships as I get why the RN does not prioritise them to take that role, preferring helicopter P8s to carry lighter ASM types.
But I really don’t get why air launched ASM are not purchased for Typhoon and in time F35.
SSN, and fast air, are surely the greatest threats to enemy ships.
Agree, though current shipborne ASM Harpoon could surely have had a further life extension for a low cost to close the capability gap. But you are right if you had to make the choice, Sub launched and air launched ASM would be my first choice as well.
The new MBDA Teseo has just got 400m+ of cash from the Italian government. Anti ship/land attack, stealthy, 300km+ range. Can be launched from surface ships. I think the Italians are going to integrate it on Typhoon & F-35. We could ride off the back of that.
I’ve found a pic of Pacscat at Portsmouth as recently as 2015..Also a ref to it being put up for sale.
Can’t imagine too many customers for such a specialized craft.
Morning Daniele and David from a wet and humid Durban. I wonder what happened to the tooling and 3 prototypes of the P 1154 Supersonic Harrier as well? Would have generated enough money in scrap value for a nice Braai(Barbecue) and a few beers for the lads!
Cheers for now😄
My question would be what will happen to the IED-resilient vehicles used in Afghanistan.
Go for it!
why hasn’t BAE built a fully enclosed shed that can accommodate 3 combat ships upto 180m length.
If they want to continue building for the RN someone should have a word with them to invest in their future.
Its not on to have this vessel and its workers operating outside, especially when other yards have dry docks that could be covered and made to do this.
They were going to if they had an order for the 13 x type 26.
Indeed, but Babcock have built a facility on the back of 5 fairly low cost vessels and BAE can expect at least 6 T83 so whilst I accept your statement, they really do need to nest in the site and bring cost of ship down to increase volume.
not fully their fault as HMG is all over the place with its heavy industry strategy.
I heard that they were offering to build the factory and 13 ships for what the 8 ships are now costing if they had ordered them instead of the rivers. I don’t know the ins and outs. Maybe the price would of included the river money. Or cash upfront. It was just mentioned to me by someone in the know. Never really researched it and his word has always been true in the past
I expect it’s a speed thing. They probably wanted to build all 13 by the middle of this decade, which would have meant paying for them all by then too.
It doesn’t matter that it would be cheaper (also no T23 Lifex) and better for everyone. The NAO may care but not the Treasury. The Treasury worries about per annum expenditure, not value for money. And that would have been too high.
So we pay more and get less and it all takes so much longer, but just so long as the Treasury is happy….
Would you consider a 10-year home mortgage instead of e.g. a 30-year?
I think 13 Type 26 for the price of 8 sounds way off the mark,Frigate Factory or not – im sure Ron5 had previously on here suggested that BAE Systems made an offer to the MOD for 8 for the price of 7 which sounds much more feasable.
No that wasn’t quite correct.
The price blew out because of the glacial build rate. True.
Thus the yard overheads and fixed costs start to dominate the TOBA equation.
BAE did offer to build the 13 for the price of 9(ish) if the build rate was much faster.
The other side of the build rate is drumbeat as the was artificially extended to fill the space up to T45 OSD.
NaB would actually be best placed on this for facts.
The Parker report gives the following statistic:
“An MOD study has estimated that a 1% delay in project time could result in a 0.38% increase in overall programme cost…”
I can easily believe 100% delays, taking two decades to build what should have been built in one, caused the price to go up 40%.
That’s how you get three ships cancelled to make ends meet and still remain over budget. Two more ships were cancelled to pay for the five Type 31s. And then there were eight.
All sounds about right!
At least everyone agrees that slowing things down costs money!
In my cynical mind that sounds like an attempt by BAE to kill off the competition. A few years in they say oops got the numbers wrong !
I would rather have two yards building two different frigates than BAE building all of the same type T26 T31/32 is probably a good fit for us.
BAE is famous for offering things that the suddenly become much more expensive once you sign the contract.
Devonport Dockyard built 15 ships (inc battleships and submarines) between 1910 and 1920, 32 ships between 1920 and 1940 and 12 ships between 1940 and 1945 (inc carrier). Last warship was built in 1968 (HMS Scylla). Pity this expertise has been lost at the largest naval dockyard in Europe. To coin a modern phrase, resource “cancelled” by the politicians of the day?
It does make me smile when people say about the loss of ship building in Guz or Pompie …The last RN ship built in Guz and Pompie where Gun Leanders in the late 1960s.
They stopped building ships at Naval Dockyards after the Washington naval treaty so they could try and preserve as much of the industrial base as possible. That decision allowed us to outbuild the Japanese, Italians and Germans combined in the 30’s and match or exceed the USA before 1939.
Shame Cammell Laird in Liverpool did not get that £100m+ in 2016, so it could build large ships (aircraft carriers, gas & oil tankers, post Panamax container ships ,cruise liners) etc,
Yeah, Birkenhead has room to expand. But I don’t think it would be able to build anything bigger than a Type 26 or modules of an aircraft carrier. Also, no doubt it’s all politics.
The press release at the time said the proposed new dry dock would have been 400 m long by 60 m wide.
Ahh, thanks for that bit of information. I didn’t know that. I wonder where that would have gone.
Anyone in construction would tell you £100M would never build that.
Think of the
– volumes excavated
– plies round the edge to form the retaining wall
– likes to the bottom to stabilise it
– concrete liner (600mm ish) volume
– amount of reinforcement needed.
I would guess the £100M would cover the concrete and reinforcement.
Then labour, plant, disposal…….
Never going to happen when there are other unused/underused facilities in the UK.a
I think the idea was to take advantage of larger ships coming into the Mersey. I mean, the Liverpool floating cruise berth cost just under 10 million, and that still surprised me.
Well even in 2016, they were saying £100m+.
As Scottish Independence is looking more certain by the party revelation we are going to regret that and Devonport I fear.
I don’t think independence has gained anymore support it’s more just the total loss of support for the tories. They have just shown the we are better than everyone else attitude that most people hate. I wish a Westminster party could come to the front and show good, honest leadership. The SNP nailed it from having a couple of mp’s pre 97 to growing into the 3rd party at Westminster and the 1st party in Scotland. If only they could be the UKNP and be available in the whole uk(minus the independence thing and Different policies). A lot vote for… Read more »
Opinion polls post COVID and where they have been since the referendum. Once the Torys go things will calm down. Their is always going to be a hard core support of 30% + much the same as in England or Texas or California or anywhere else. Pulling shipyards out of Scotland because people voted to stay in the UK is probably the best way to encourage independence.
In my fantasy I always hope that Cammell Laird reverts to building SSN’s then we end up with a fleet of 25. One can dream 😀
“ British warship building in Scotland ‘enormously beneficial’ “
Yes it is: to RN
UK now has a grown up ship building program: 10 years too late mind.
Yes let’s hope it works nicely. The location of 3 shipyards in the central belt of Scotland will hopefully keep a good well trained workforce available. Also benefits the civilian sector at faslane With transferable skills etc.
Even barrow-in Furness is only 2-3 hours away.
Colleges etc will do courses relevant to the shipyard industries also being useful.
I think it is called critical mass?
Scotland doing quite well in the defence spend is a masiive understatement as the eveedince quoited above illustrates. But musnt overdo it must we otherwise Sturgeon will throw a fit
Always good to see this topic making the headlines.
A wake-up call for the British people and government, I hope!
Boris Johnson talks tough on Russia – but does the UK have the military might?
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-talks-tough-on-russia-but-does-the-uk-have-the-military-might-12528700
She looks to be a fine looking man of war, let’s hope she is equipped with all the bells and whistles, I have noticed news reports coming out of Australia that the Bae, version for the Australian Navy has tun into trouble. The amount of kit the Australians want to equip thier version has made the ship unstable and too heavy according to a leaked report. Knowing the MOD and procurement executive and the Royal Navy I hope the same does not apply to our type 26s.
That is the problem.
You end up with a massively heavy and unbelievably complex ship that is a nightmare to maintain or upgrade as it ages.
To my mind T26 had it about right in the balancing act. It can do AAW from the VLS as well as ASW or Land/sea attack with the 5” or VLS.
T45 at lunch didn’t as it needs offensive capabilities. It will be interesting to see if the 4.5” is retained after T23 OSD as it will be orphaned and EOL.
Type 26 is about the biggest hull available on the international market. If the Aussies want to pack more stuff on a ship they either need to cut back or build their own cruiser.
Or have specialist ships AAW/ASW/GP rather than a massive Swiss army knife?
A lot is often said about what the UK does for Scotland, with clear implications regarding any future indyref, but I feel this getting the wrong end of the stick. I think there would be a huge benefit if these things were spoken of as Scotland’s contribution to the greater whole, rather than as handouts from the UK or England. The same could have been said about the UK’s relationship with the EU before Brexit*, I saw a lot of resentment (anecdotal of course) from the various assertions that we’d be utterly lost without them. People generally want to see… Read more »
It’s a good point, Scotland was building the largest warships in the world before the Union of the crowns and Scotlands military capabilities were one of the main reasons England wanted the Union for so long. In the end it wanted it so much it was prepared to give the Scottish king the crown and right off all debt of the Darian scheme. England was not doing this out of charity, it saw clear benefit much the same as Scotland saw benefit in joining its bigger neighbour and forming an island nation.
Exactly. We are all better together. The thing of it being seen as Scotland should be grateful to be allowed to build England’s ships is part of the issue. I have benefits From having the Scottish government but also have the safety and prosperity of the U.K. as a whole. Free prescriptions, seen as more caring etc etc
Yes it’s a simplistic understanding of economics, scotlands economy must provide 6000 plus skilled workers for the union to build warships. If they were not building warships they would be doing some other useful economic activity. It’s more a case of what Scotland does for the UK than what the UK gives to Scotland. Money is not real industrial capacity is.
Interesting article, and shows that we should go back to thinking of the United Kingdom as just that. How about an update on the two major frigate programmes. It would be good to know when HMS Glasgow is going to be in the water and down river for fitting out, and also how the T31 #01 is getting on. If the ship is going to be in the water next year, which I think is the contracted plan, I hope Babcock are getting a wiggle on. And what is the status of the order for Batch 2 of the T26’s,… Read more »
We must strengthen naval shipbuilding in NI/Wales/England so we have depth, capacity & alternatives should Scotland ever decide for independance. It is great Scottish shipbuilding is so strong.
Problem is none of those places have built a surface ship for decades and barrow is full forever. Look at the costs of restarting ship building in Canada and Australia. You would spend billions for what? Also worth pointing out that due to demographics and the provisions of the Good Friday agreement it’s likely that NI will leave the UK long before Scotland and I don’t think there are any shipyards in wales. Due to its narrow distance between coast central Scotland can sustain two shipyards on a budget good enough for 1. No where else in the UK can… Read more »
That said a properly set out yard with sub block halls feeding a main build hall, as per AUS, would be infinitely more efficient.
Moving big lumps around can be done but there is a cost/time/interaction to every bit of choreography.
Whilst the frigate sheds are a really great step forwards into the last century they are not really as optimised as they could be.
Mind you AUS has a lot more space than UK has.
So Barrow in England doesn’t have a major warship building yard?
Bah humbug. Barrow makes Babcock’s Rosyth “factory” look like a garden shed.
It does and it’s full and if it had an inch more capacity we would be building more SSN’s in it. Clyde and Rosyth are important warship building centres even on global scale. Barrow is one of 3 places on planet earth that can build nuclear powered monsters at the cutting edge of technology.
Not exactly the most accurate way to outline Scotland’s share of defence spending from the equipment plan. Most things I have seen put Scotland at roughly it’s share of population. It’s the vast amount of the military based in the South East that’s the major imbalance that sees the likes of wales and Northern England get less than they should.