Royal Air Force C-130J Hercules aircraft, which have been supporting Operation SHADER, have returned to RAF Brize Norton after completing over eight years of continuous deployment in support of the coalition commitment to combatting Da’esh.
The role of the Hercules aircraft in transporting personnel and freight in theatre is being transitioned to the A400M Atlas, and both types of aircraft will continue to operate in tandem before the responsibility is fully transferred later this year.
The Hercules aircraft, which has been in service since 1967, has played a vital role in supporting a wide range of UK military and humanitarian relief operations across the globe.
Wing Commander Sjoberg, Officer Commanding 47 Squadron, was quoted here as saying:
“It was a great honour to fly home the first RAF Hercules after over eight years of continuous operations in support of the counter-Da’esh fight. The Hercules was central to the first ever Operation SHADER mission, when vital supplies were dropped to the Yazidi people on Mt Sinjar on 9 August 2014.
I would like to pay tribute to the hundreds of engineers, aircrew, support staff, industry partners and families of the Hercules force who have supported Operation SHADER non-stop since 2014 – their contribution has been enormous.
Although one Hercules will remain committed to SHADER until later this year, flying home [Hercules] ZH877 marks the beginning of the changes leading to the aircraft’s retirement in June. Hercules draw down is tinged with sadness for many of us, but it is heartening to see our friends on the Atlas force continuing to deliver on SHADER and increasing their own exciting capabilities every day.”
Wing Commander Bailey, Officer Commanding LXX Squadron, was also quoted:
“This is a significant moment for the Atlas Force. As the Detachment Commander for the C130J mission which commenced Operation SHADER on 9 August 2014, I recognise the enormous contribution that the C130J engineers and aircrew have made to underwrite this operation over the past eight years. The Atlas is a great aircraft, and our force is ready to take this task on. We aim to do justice to this proud heritage and the mantle which 47 Squadron leaves behind.”
I simply cant get my head around how the MOD feels that the A400 can do everything (and more) what the C130J can do, when the Germans and French have had to purchase the C130J to make up for the shortfalls of the A400.
But hey, this is the MOD which has as its Motto:
“Pound foolish, penny shy”
Basically money. It’s a bit of over stretch, sometimes badly spent. I would think the nuclear stuff takes around 1/4 of the budget at least. Granted the uk would still need submarines.
If the uk wants to be top tier, UN Security Council, G7, pillar of nato country it needs the forces to do it. The equipment budget needs a boost. An extra £15b a year for that and £5b to get stocks increased and a further few billion to start future projects would really help over the next few years, the forces have done a lot in the past few years to get better but capabilities are being lost purely for financial issues.
Ignoring the politics as both seem to be as bad as each other, 13B wasted since 2010. I wonder what we could have purchased for half that amount of money.
LINK
Because the A400M can do everything the C130J can and more, much more. The French bought a few C130s as a stop gap buy purely to refuel their combat SAR helicopters because that was the one thing the A400M could not do (at the time). But then Cobham produced the 120 ft hose which I understand is being flight tested and will hopefully resolve the issue. The only downside of the Atlas vs the Herc is that it has a greater radar cross section. But if stealth is an imperative for an operation, then a Herc is too big too. Best use a C27J or C295, or even an Islander.
Mat I ask specifically what is it that the C130 can do that the A400 can’t. Just interested, as every complaint of A400 is about this. Seems like the A400m has a lot of unutilised capibility in the for of airbus ” paywalls ” / just how long it takes capabilities to be included in the MOD ( excluding MROSS1 ) e.g meteor missile only being integrated on F-35 in 2028!
sadly, the motto “Pound foolish, penny shy” is too true
I learned today that 2 CVRT can fit into a C130. The question should really be what can a mixed fleet of 36 aircraft do that a single fleet of 22 A400 can’t. Is it worth the extra cost.
See if the announcement had read C130 to be retired, 8 A400 to replace them. That would be seen an partially acceptable.
The deeper question is how is this retirement going to effect the ability of uk forces moving manpower and equipment around.
The Hercules (J) is smaller, less wingspan and can operate with a considerably shorter apron.
It is often mentioned that people doing dangerous things in dangerous places, often at the drop of a hat, will miss this capability. I think it’s a damned shame. Too many bean counters without experience.
Yep! I’m still waiting for our politicians to realise defence actually matters.
I agree. For sure it’s about the money, but what a waste, and how totally incongruous with UK defence’s stated aims. I’m sure Atlas is going to be great, but strategic lift, whether fixed or rotary, has for a long time been one of the UK’s great strengths compared with the austere capability enjoyed by our European partners. I think this is a big mistake and we will regret it sooner than later.
I hadn’t even realised there were a few C130 out in the Middle East. Hopefully the A400 can fill its big boots out there.
I guess the MOD/raf know what they are doing. I hope.
Personally if they could be kept in service until 2025 that would of been good. Things are a little hot in Europe just now. If Russia does try to open a new front in the north near Poland and Poland decides it has to help Ukraine the Uk and nato forces need to be ready to move quickly. The uk can manage with the aircraft it has just but the support for nato will suffer as the uk won’t have much spare capacity.
We see what has happened to the NHS when the just enough capacity model is used. One thing goes wrong and it quickly unravels.
Two have almost permanently been based at RAF Akrotiri running shuttles in/out of Iraq/Syria
Looking at https://satellites.pro/#34.581421,33.001353,17 shows x3 C-130, x1 A400M x1 Voyager and x2 E-3 Sentry, This image would obviously be years old now though.
Ahh. I never think of Cyprus as the Middle East. It’s a great base to have.
The most important area we have MS, and I include the other installations in the 2 SBAs there.
The RAF/MOD know what they are doing? RAF have lost and messed up so many programes we are always having to ask for help to fill the gaps. Great at wasting dosh for sure and deliver NOTHING
This surely has to rank as one of the most short-sighted decisions ever made by the MOD. Why at a time of increased global tension would you remove from service a tried and tested air logistical capability with proven reach and reliability?
The RAF ,could always turn the c130 airframes from cargo and personnel too a good old solid Spectre Gunship the Navy could give the RAF enough 30mm single barrel mounts from the retired Hunts Chris
bollocks. The amount of effort to but a navalized gun on a airlift aircraft and then make it work and then add onto that how much we would really need it / its effectiveness is just bollocks
A single 20mm 7 Alpha weighs 180 lbs I only mentioned the Spectre as Hate too see the C130 just ditched Gh
If you go by internet prices (risky, I know), then Britain copying Germany & buying 3x KC-130J + 3x C-130J-30, would cost around $600m. Buying another 3 A400M to make the 25 the RAF was supposed to get would cost $450m. So sorting out RAF airlift following retirement of 14 old C-130, would cost $1050m approx. So 9 replace 14. Doubtless the no money cry will come, but I suspect muddling on without, will end up costing more in charter fees in the long run.
Still one of the dumbest decisions from the MoD, despite the lengthy list of competition…
Hi folks hope all is well.
Slightly off topic but related, just seen this article BBC:
“General Sir Patrick Sanders says support for Ukraine will come at a cost to the British Army” he goes on to state this matter is temporary!
Bust of course we are at the stage the UK defense budget must be increased to facilitate the replacement and top-up of equipment and materials, after all there could be other flash points we may have address.
Cheers,
George
Cancel the additional A400s and cut the C130 – Cameronomics in action!
The additional A400s haven’t been cancelled, its just no budget has been allocated to it yet. There is a difference. The RAFs stated aim is to increase the fleet. When, or if, it will happen….. who knows, but it hasn’t been cancelled. Not yet.
We will lose the C130’s this year with no replacements on order, so it amounts to the same thing. Jam tomorrow.
The worst of the latest cuts, IMO.
So sad, so stupid.
Certainly bad without bringing more A400s into service first, and even then for SF work it does look a bit like using a very expensive sledgehammer to crack a nut!
I’d say retiring the tranche 1 Typhoons is equally questionable when they are only around 20 years old and although too expensive to upgrade are surely still perfectly capable of chasing off lumbering Russian bombers over The North Sea or escorting passenger airliners if there’s a panic!
May I ask specifically what is it that the C130 can do that the A400 can’t. Just interested, as every complaint of A400 is about this. Seems like the A400m has a lot of unutilised capibility in the for of airbus ” paywalls ” / just how long it takes capabilities to be included in the MOD ( excluding MROSS1 ) e.g meteor missile only being integrated on F-35 in 2028!
sadly, the motto “Pound foolish, penny shy” is too true
It is both smaller and quieter than an A400, making it more suited to transporting or extracting small teams of specialised soldiers safely and covertly.
It is cheaper to operate for a start.
The Army requested that they be kept to support the SF which the A400 is way to large for. Often the Herc did the bizz very well and note the RAAF (a real first rate outfit) are going to double their Herc fleet to 24. Their leadership makes better choice than the RAF’s.
It’s primarily numbers gh, numbers. There are several aircraft dedicated to DSF in 47 Sqn.
What now replaces them? Atlas.
And what now replaces the Atlas that now have to do the SF work and not their other roles?
Nothing.
They cannot be in two places at once no matter how “Agile” the MoD say the forces will be, which is total tosh.
This is nothing to do with how fast or far or how heavy a payload the Atlas carries. It may well have good rough or short field capabilities but is needed for the many other tasks that are placed on the RAF ATF on a daily basis.
DSF should have its own transport aircraft, which it has had for decades.
This amounts to a 25% cut in the ATF just as the MoD talks of us being more deployable and is committing to hubs in Africa and the M East.
An additional buy of Atlas would help enormously, but as usual, where are they? In the future, if at all.
Meanwhile the Hercs go this year.
Jam tomorrow. Which is then quietly removed down the line as the RAF and the rest of the military, somehow, manage, while burning the hours of their assets as there are are so few of them.
Yet more proof if proof was needed that the MoD if full of buffoons or may-be something more sinister. If we are to go to all A400 transport fleet then why can’t we convert at least some of our C130’s for ground support (gunship) and some for in flight refuelling with their long rang and loitering capacity they would be ideal for both and can operate just behind the front line from rough airstrips. Yes the C130 has been in service in the UK since the late 1960 but that just goes to show how serviceable and its ability to be updated, look across the pond the B52 are still going strong and it’s C130’s.
It would cost more than keeping them in their current role.
But a lot less that buying in new aircraft, the Army. RM and SF need top cover yes we have Apaches but not enough so a few C130 gunships would help fill the whole and with having C130 in flight re-fuelling aircraft based just behind the front line we could keep our hand full of aircraft on the front line for longer.
Because if we converted them for in-flight refuelling we’d breach the conditions of the contract we have with the AirTanker consortium to use Voyagers for refuelling. Not saying that this is how things should be, just how things are. 🤷🏻♂️
As I eluded to above “something more sinister” the RAF or the elements in charge of the RAF seem content in hamstringing the UKs armed forces with the idea that we can “privatise” the armed forces will the MoD be hiring the Wagner group to replace the RAF Rgt.
The RAF seem more concerned in in being WOKE than actually defending the UK. We now find it difficult to train fast jet pilots with the lack of aircraft and senior pilots despite those self same pilot going to China to train Chinese pilots so that they can earn small fortunes. For our one and only armoured brigade in Estonia to be able to move it needs top cover both to help fight off enemy aircraft and to attack the ground forces as well as attract strategic targets of opportunity. With the present state of the RAF this is a tall ask.
The old boys club has its benefits and can be useful to the country but when they are subverting a good portion of the Defence budget to line their own pockets we have to have a re-think but by accepting the present status-quo we are doing our young men and women of the armed forces a major disservice.
Well the AirTanker conditions are a matter of public record.
What’s your proof of the “something more sinister”?
Lets not have another AirTanker fiasco ever again.
It is also on public record that our parachute training is being privatised, our pilot training is being privatised, what next, are we going to privatise the armed forces altogether we could get “rent-a-mob” to run the army. Another aspect of this is what happens when the sh-t hits the fan are all the elements that have been privatised going to ask for “danger money” or simply not turn out for work leaving gaping holes in our already extremely thin on the ground armed forces.
The proof you ask for is all around you, we have a Civil Service that would struggle to organise a day out at the brewery, the current head of the armed forces trying to put right what his predecessors over the last 50 years have taken grate pleasure in f–king up. With the lack of accountability our political elite and CS can and do get away with just about any thing. I believe it is forums like this that should help high-light the underlying problems in the armed forces but there are too many people who are quick to defend current situation by blaming it of the budget (or lack of).
Sell off the RAF and give home defence to the one service that CAN deliver. The RN. Simple
Well it has been said before, and I would go one step further in saying that the RN should be running the defence of the UK by having the RAF taken over by the FAA and the Army run by the RM that way we will get rid of the try service in-fighting for money and we get rig of the top heavy system we have at the moment.
I will be getting some flak for this I know but it has to be said.
🤣
Ask the Canadians how well that idea worked 🤦🏻♂️
We are not talking about the Canadians, we are talking about a “not fit for propose RAF”
But you were talking about if amalgamation if the armed services which the Canadians did… and then undid.
Well you’re the outlier that seems to think the RAF is not fit for purpose without offering any evidence of it whatsoever other than your disdain for private-sector contracts. The hilarious thing being, that the RAF isn’t the sole service having these.
Evidence! Can the RAF do what they are supposed to be able to do, and the answer to that is NO, along with the Army and the RN, the reason is because they have been hamstrung by the politicians along with the CS and high ranking officers, the $64 question is is this a deliberate ploy to undermine the armed forces or just ineptitude.
Still waiting for evidence.. what things do you think they can’t do that you think they should be capable of?…
But no you’ve extended your attack to all 3 services. When you only accused the RAF of being unfit, having the RN take control of it had a warped logic to it. But now that you claim all 3 services are unfit for purpose you’ve destroyed any logic behind the RN taking over the others 🤦🏻♂️
Ah, so you see some great conspiracy at work uniting politicians and high-ranking military officers to deliberately undermine the UKs armed forces. But for what purpose? All our fellow European nations seem to have identical or even more effective conspiracies undermining them too.
As for known threats, well Russia has more than its hands full holding onto the parts of Ukraine it’s occupied… No, to build and operate such vast conspiracies suggests but one thing, an imminent invasion by some alien race to enslave humanity!!
🤣😂🤣
You as the Scientist so would probably know if we are going to be invaded by aliens for my part the only aliens I see are the ones coming across the channel.
Russia is struggling it is true but if they are not defeated in the Ukraine then they are not going to stop so we best get our s–t together on 2 fronts one is supporting the Ukraine and the second is to get our armed forces up to a point were they can actually fight a war.
You mean the French?
I don’t see any ‘invasion’ coming across the channel. I do see a large amount of illegal immigration coming across the channel, mostly economic migrants masquerading as asylum seekers, along with a few genuine asylum seekers. Although the question has to be asked why the genuine ones didn’t claim asylum in the first safe country they arrived in.
If you think that’s an ‘invasion’ you clearly have no understanding of military matters.
Agreed if they are not stopped in Ukraine, then Russia will move on Moldova, Georgia, etc. They might even try Finland if their application for NATO membership hasn’t been rubber-stamped by then.
But moving against a NATO member would see Russia’s conventional forces convincingly crushed. My only concern is about available stocks of munitions, though I think we’d probably still run out of targets to hit before we run out…. Actually I do have a second concern, as to whether the Germans have the balls to honour their NATO commitments.
Invasions come in many guises, one is to overwhelm the local resources so that they find it impossible to work correctly and if you go to the South coast you will find that most of the hotels, public houses, empty factories and caravan parks are full to capacity with “Aliens”
I clearly have no idea of military matters as I actually give a F–k what happens to our military and the young men and women who serve in them and will be expected to defend our country.
The reason Putin chose 2021 to invade Ukraine is because Nato has never been so weak with countries like the UK, Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, Spain and Portugal cutting their armed forces year on year. It is quit ironic that the Ex Soviet bloc countries who understand what it is like to live under the Russian jack-boot are now pressuring the rest of NATO for 3% of GDP. My personnel opinion is that the Defence budget should not be linked to GDP but should be liked to “what is needed” to defend our country and our allies but hay-hoo what the hell do I know about such things.
Fortunately aside from a few on the far-right who are keen to machine-gun illegal migrants in their dinghies (aka murder them), most people dismiss this comparison of an invasion. In fact, to call it an an ‘invasion’ is pretty insulting to the people of Ukraine, Georgia, and every other nation that has suffered a real invasion.
Err… Putin chose 2022 not 2021 to invade, do you not even know what year it is?!?!
Putin chose to invade in 2023 simply because he spent the majority of the pandemic hiding away from people, petrified of catching Corvid-19. During his self-imposed isolation he began to dwell on ‘his legacy’ and began planning on how to absorb Ukraine into a ‘Greater Russia’.
My opinion is that GDP % spending should only apply to day-to-day OPEX spending. With separate CAPEX budgets for big-ticket projects such as T26 etc. That would ensure that operational spend is not cut when a project overspends. It would make project overspends more visible and hopefully more accountable.
Yes my mistake it should have read 2022 not 2021.
No one was talking about murdering Immigrants (well apart from yourself) at the end of the day the UK is a soft touch and having spent quit a number of years in Africa and the Middle East understand that in those area if you do not have work you stave in the UK you get a hand out whether you are a UK citizen or not and whether you have paid into the system or not.
Putin has been reputedly suffering from cancer but his plans for a Grater Russia go back a long long way he has been planning this move for the last 20 years by making Europe reliant on Russian gas and oil, having his oligarchs flood Europe with money to corrupt the parliamentary process in each country (UK included) and with that money he manipulates the far right and far left of each country pulling the middle of the road politics out to the extremes so that the public loses faith in there political systems. This is not new the Russian have been doing this since the 1950’s.
But while he has been focussing on the collapse of Europe and NATO his corrupting methods have come home to roost mainly in his own armed forces.
Your idea about defence expenditure would however be a step in the right direction, so we do have a little common ground.
I guess you count yourself as a humanitarian on the basis that instead of machine-gunning illegal migrants to death you’d prefer to starve them to death instead…
The reports of Putin having cancer are simply speculation in the West based on the way he looks in television broadcasts.
You are correct in your analysis of how long Putin has been planning this. The West should have been on its guard as soon as he took power, immediately distanced himself from Yeltsin, and started consolidating control over Russian tv. Indeed it should have been earlier, over the FSB’s faking of Chechen terrorist attacks.
Europe, especially played into his hands with the thirst for cheap natural gas. Meanwhile, Putin has for years been building up a huge sovereign fund to aid the Russian economy in the event of sanctions. (Though hilariously half of it is frozen in the West, sanctions were imposed so fast he wasn’t able to repatriate it.)
The oligarchs are less of an issue. Under Yeltsin they were powerful, independent and frequently corrupt, but Putin has bankrupted, imprisoned, and murdered, so many of them that they they keep their heads down as much as possible. Yes they splash a lot of cash in the west, buying football clubs, etc. Its not to influence the west, they’re just trying to get as much of their money out of Russia to avoid Putin confiscating it.
But you are 100% spot on with the far-right and far-left extremes. Though this is mainly driven via social media, via a combination of St Peterberg’s Internet Research Agency, the GRU’s Fancy Bears, and the SVR’s Cozy Bears. It’s actually amusing in a perverse way, to see the far-left and far-right on social media pushing identical narratives:- the vaccine is a biological weapon, climate-change is a hoax, Davos is a secret world-government, Putin is a really a nice guy who simply gets bad press…
I don’t think Putin has had any real effect on degrading the West’s armed forces. If there’s one military that he’s managed to wreck and render utterly ineffective, it’s his own!
No the west believed in “the end of history”. That with the collapse of Communism, the world was destined to embrace Western democracy, and that wars would become a thing of the past. And politicians in the West were more than happy to use this a reason for cutting taxes (politicians on the right) or diverting spending to social issues (politicians on the left).
And a Western public, worn tired of the endless proxy wars since WW2 and the constant threat of global nuclear Armageddon were happy to believe them.
Oh and the NATO 2% of GDP… I’d change that from a target, to a minimum commitment to retain membership.
I do not count myself as much of anything these days and apart for a couple of you sweeping statements in the beginning of you reply I would tend to agree with a lot of what you have stated.
So I will be signing off for a while.
I’m not sure what parachute training or pilot training services would be expected to do when the “shi-t hits the fan” as you put it given they’re not expected to be involved in combat or logistical operations… You seem to have issues differentiating between core operations and ancillary operations.
You have no problem using combat aircraft built by public companies but object to other public companies training the pilots for these. Or do you think the MoD should be building its own aircraft? 🤦🏻♂️
There has never been the suggestion that the armed force’s themselves be privatised, so you can calm down and stop being so hysterical about hypothetical situations that aren’t going to happen.
Yes there’s been some major gaffes, but when you compare our Defence Ministry with for example, Germany’s our appears to be an exemplar of efficiency and decision making. Any organisation that relies on humans is going to make f@ck-ups on occasions. Given the success of RN programmes, and the blunders on Army vehicle programmes, it would appear the issues are more service related…
Well if you are “not sure” what they are expected to do then should you actually be commenting on sites like this. They are expected to “train” but in times of war it will be at double quick time and they will be a target of the enemy as if you can stop the supply line you stop your enemy in its tracks.
I, do not get to decide what the RAF do with their aircraft of Pilots or for that matter any other facet of military decision making but as a tax payer I would like to see more bang for my buck, stop the wastage of £Billions each year on ill thourght out ideas along with returning the UKs armed forces to the premier league were they belong.
You mentioned the Canadians above, a good example of politicians f–king up their own military. The UK parliament are getting close to turning the UKs armed forces into “Self Defence Force” as we have very little affective capability this is compounded even more by high ranking officers mainly in the RAF but all three services are guilty of allowing the politicians to dictate what they should and should not be doing the Privatisation of our military is just on example the WOKE agenda being a close second.
Great, so you sacrifice your ongoing training capabilities to achieve a sort-term tactical advantage. Thankfully our services didn’t do that in WW2 otherwise we wouldn’t have lasted the course of a prolonged war. If you are so short-sighted in terms of maintaining capabilities you definitely shouldn’t be commenting on sites like this. 🤣
You think the Canadian politicians f-cked up their armed services by amalgamating them… and yet you advocate doing the same here 🤣
While I lament the state some areas of our forces are in, you seem woefully ignorant of how better they remain compared to Europe’s other militaries.
You think our politicians shouldn’t dictate what our armed forces can and cannot do. Well that’s democracy for you, don’t like the politicians then vote them out and replace them. But in your alternative, a U.K. run by a military junta, you won’t be able to replace them so easily if you are still unsatisfied.
While much of the WOKE agenda is just downright silly – the NHS is the most diverse workforce in the U.K. yet it’s hiring ‘diversity managers’. But as usual there is some value too when you examine the core ideas.
The armed forces are undermanned in a very competitive jobs market, they need to ensure that we are recruiting equally from all ethnic minorities to ensue we have the numbers we need.
(Gosh, that’s probably got you foaming at the mouth now, the idea of non-whites in the British Armed Forces…)
Our training capabilities as you put it were run by the various armed services in WW2 as was the whole country as we were under marshal law.
The Canadian government thourght that elements within the armed forces were too right wing so tried to impose their idea of what the armed forces should look like and as you said it did not work out too well.
Again I would agree that the UKs armed forces are in a better shape than our European cousins but that is no bench march as Europe has been gutting its armed forces at a faster rate than the UK believing that the USA will step in to help but we have Mr Trump to thank for pointing out to the US tax payers that Europe is busy cutting its defence expenditure while the USA if forced to support more and more at US Tax payer expense.
The UKs armed forces have always had a mix of Race, Religion and Sexually non-aligned personnel all now legal in the UKs armed forces and in my point of view it is a good thing but to impose strict recruiting criteria stating that “you have to recruit a specific number of diffrent type of people just to keep the forces “Politically Correct” is wrong and down grades the armed forces. You mentioned the NHS well they are not doing so well at the moment with a top heavy system bleeding the NHS dry with the average Nurse on £34K/ year but their manager who has never set foot on a ward getting £40+/ year. Now we are getting a similar system in the UKs armed forces with the RAF head and shoulders in front of the Army and RN with too many high ranking offices all having to rubber stamp any and all orders just to justify there position, were/are you one of them!!!
The U.K. was not under martial law during WW2. The police and judicial system functioned as usual. Churchill and the elected government ran the country not the military. The government issued contracts for aircraft, weapons, etc to private industry. The economy shifted to being a wartime economy, with the biggest spender becoming the U.K. government through military purchases. None of which can be described as martial law.
(You even got the spelling wrong 🤦🏻♂️)
No the Canadians didn’t merge their services because of perceived right-wing threats.
Many presidents before Mr Fake-tan rightly had a go at europe for not paying its share in the collective defence of NATO. That’s why the 2% target of GDP was introduced. It was Mr Orange that then thought undermining NATO would be the best way to solve this issue 🤦🏻♂️
Clearly you’ve not followed Radakin’s term as FSL before he became CDS. He had a major purge of high-ranking officers in the RN, which had become bloated with admirals.
I wouldn’t be surprised if more could be shed though of course in doing so you lose experience. It’s a difficult balance between rewarding and retaining those that excel and not the journeymen who are simply hanging on for a pension.
No I’m not. I’m in the fortunate position of being in the first generation of my family that hasn’t had to serve in the military. Every generation before me, going back well over a hundred years has.
I just believe that it’s worth investigating the facts as they are, before drawing conclusions and posting them in the internet. But that’s my scientific background, I know others previous not to have to deal with such inconveniences as facts and evidence.
The police and the judicial along with “vital” industries like coal mining, fishing and farming continued through-out the war as they were vital for the economy but all other industries were brought under the control of the government. The “private” industry were partially nationalized so that the influx of extra personnel needed could be controlled by the government. The whole of the country however was subject to military law which in some peoples views could be described as martial law. The companies who were given military contracts may have started the war as private companies but by 1941 there was not many left in the UK. The biggest financial beneficiary of both the 1st and 2nd WW’s was the USA.
As far as the 2% GDP goes yes we (The UK) along with many others in Europe agreed on 2% but up until Feb 2021 we were along with the Germans spending about 1.5% to 1.7% on defence the Government is now back peddling to try and get some fighting ability back into the armed forces.
Admiral Radakin saw the writing on the wall and got rid of a lot of dead wood in the RN, I just hope he gets to grip with the other 2 services now he is in a position to do so.
I was under the impression that the UK’s armed forces were a voluntary force meaning you volunteer to join, none of us “have” to serve you chose not too.
I also have family dating back some 100 years and more that have served in the UKs armed forces I myself also chose to serve and being the eldest in a large family I also had to leave school at 15 to help augment the family income so I do apologise if my spelling is not up to you high standards.
Well at least I’ve now taught you how to spell ‘martial law’ even though you don’t know what it means.
The U.K. was not under martial law during WW2 as defined legally. You clearly have your own definition for it, in the same way you might have your own definition for marriage, or gravity, or the cloud blue, but it doesn’t mean anyone will agree with you.
You’re wrong, as per usual, with regard the U.K.s defence spending as per GDP, with it never being below 2.1%
https://www.statista.com/statistics/298527/defense-spending-as-share-of-gdp-united-kingdom-uk/
German defence spending has been laughably pathetic. This gives you a comparison of the two, which as you’ll see is nothing like you claimed.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=DE-GB
“None of us have to serve” – tell that to those conscripted during WW1, WW2, or who did National Service which didn’t end until 1960.
But that’s the legalistic definition of ‘have to’. If you have moral backbone then you believe you have to serve in wartime to defend your country, whether the law demands it or not.
It’s not a question of schooling. Had you done any research on martial law you would have quickly learned how it was spelt. That you didn’t know, showed that you hadn’t.
(And let’s not rehash The Four Yorkshire Men sketch.)
You are clearly a believer which makes me think you either work for the government or use to.
We are all wrong time to time but I am not wrong this time.
You were talking about yourself not serving and as you did not then you are not old enough to have done National Service so you choose not to join the Forces that is entirely your choice. Also not all personnel from WW1 to 1960 were conscripted into the forces a good proportion actually volunteered.
The Government up until Feb 2022 (got the date right this time) was insisting that they were spending 2% on defence but that 2% included a lot that should not be in the defence budget for example our Nuclear Deterrent use to have its own budget, the forces infrastructure (food and accommodation) again use to have its own budget and foriegn aide is now in partly payed for from the Defence Budget. So although the government stated that 2% was being spent if we take out all of the add-ons then the real figure is around 1.5 to 1.7 then on top of that we have the wastage within the MoD like the fiascos around the procurement.
I maybe wrong and oftern am, and quite happy to admit it you however are one of those dangerous people who set them selves up as being masters of their trade quoting bits of paper just to prove a point. There are a number of people around the world as we speak who have set them selves up to be masters of there trade they too are highly educated believing that all they say and do is right.
God no, wrong again. 🤷🏻♂️
Never worked in the public sector, I’ve always worked in the private sector. Closest I ever came was working for a firmer nationalised company. It was over 20 years since it had been privatised and it was still an overly bureaucratic and inefficient nightmare.
I gave you links that showed the U.K. was spending 2% or more of GDP on defence. Now in setting that target, NATO defines what spending counts at being defence-related. You might disagree with some of those items being included but:
• using a common list of what can and cannot be included allows a direct comparison of spending figures between NATO members
• NATO knows considerably more about defence than you or I.
The “bits of paper” you accuse me of quoting are established facts. I provided supporting evidence for the 2% spending figures. You’ve just simply plucked 1.5% out of the air with with no proof whatsoever to back in up.
Sorry if you don’t like people quoting facts at you, but that’s how logical reasoning is done. Opinions without any supporting facts, like yours, are utterly worthless. Which is why they are ignored.
I have never stated that the UK is not giving 2% to the defence budget but what I am saying is that only 1.5 to 1.7 (up until Feb 2022) is being spent on actual defence items. IE paying personnel, buying new kit, running and maintaining the kit already in service along with R&D as the government has seen fit to lump into the defence budget items that should (and did in the past) have there own budget or were part of anouther departments budgeting.
The reason why for example the Nuclear deterrent was never included in the defence budget is because it is only the USA, France and the UK who have a Nuclear response within Nato which makes it unfear and unrealistic to compere budgets from a Nuclear armed country and a non Nuclear armed country.
What even ill-educated people like myself can see without having to check what has been written down is that people like Putin and Lavrov along with most of the mouth pieces within the Kremlin even though they are highly educated prefer to lie out of there back teeth to justify their view of the world to the detriment of the people they are supposed to be protecting/representing.
If that is what education dose to you then I am glade to to be ignored.
So basically you think NATO is wrong in allowing various defence related spending to be included in the defence budget. I’ll contact Jens Stoltenberg then and let him know the error of his ways, and get him to refer to you as to what counts as defence spending…
Hmm, so because Vladimir Putin and Sergey Lavrov went to university, all people with a university education must be lying murderers because they are?…
Congratulations, you’ve successfully demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the difference between correlation and causality.
No wonder you are so out of touch with reality and see conspiracies everywhere.
Yet anouther blanket statement to try to cover up the fact you do not really understand what is in front of you.
You not Mr Stoltenberg was compering UKs Defence budget with Germanys despite the fact that one is a nuclear power and the other is not.
But if you really want to contact Mr Stoltenberg go right ahead I’m sure he will be all ears.
Russia’s educated elite lie cheat and steal from the Russian public much like the UKs educated elite who sit in parliament, run our media and our Civil Service.
Is it not you who is out of touch, and starting to panic by lashing out at people who you think you can brow beat into submission.
Through education we should be lifting the country to the next level and not using it to enforce the “us and them” principles of the 1800’s.
Wrong again, you’ve so befuddled yourself you’re now contradicting and confusing yourself.
NATO, not me, not you, not the government, has:
• set the target for defence spending at 2% of GDP
• defined what expenditure is defined as defence expenditure and can be included in the figure to see if the target is being met
• published comparison table of which each member state spends.
I fully expect you now to redefine what value “2” actually has, I suspect you’re probably try and move it up between “5” and “6” so as to show the U.K. isn’t meeting the target.
That would be no more ridiculous than your previously statements.
Education does raise the country up, but people like yourself who refuse to accept established facts because it contradicts your political dogma is what drags the country back down again.
I agree, it’s not me that’s out of touch, it’s you. You are in a small irrelevant irrational minority.
Does the AirTanker contract say that they have to provide inflight refuelling of helicopters? If not then surely wouldn’t be a breach of contract, if so then where is AirTankers helicopter tanker?
What a horrible situation to be in, UKs defence constricted by a private company needs to be changed/removed or my preferred option just nationalise it on security grounds.
Two points,firstly the RAF to my knowledge has never operated a fixed wing Gunship,that being the case i fail to see why they would require one now,secondly yes the RAF has operated the C130 since the 60’s ,but over that time the fleet has been refreshed with new examples and the oldest ones retired,the latest C130J are at the point where due to their(maybe unplanned for ) work in Iraq and Afghanistan the decision has been made to take them out of service,rightly or wrongly,if they need re-sparring then the MOD would prefer to spend that money elsewhere.
The RAF has a number of roles but the two main ones are the defence of the UK sky’s and to support the Army and RN in ground support.
What few Typhoons we do have are good at air to air and good at bomb runs but cannot linger on the front line at the request of the grunts on the ground.
The C130J is also operated by the USAF and the USMC and I will give you a wager right now that our C130J will end up over the pond and be pressed back into service along with our Sea Harriers that are still in active service with the USMC.
As a side note the 3 wings of the armed forces need to operate in unison and if the RAF cannot support the other two services then it is time for a rethink.
The RAF,like the other services can only do so much with the funds it gets from the Treasury,it doesn’t have the budget of the USAF or USMC unfortunately.Bangladesh seems to have taken up most of the ex-RAF C130J so far although one was snapped up by the Blue Angels display team in the US.No Sea Harriers were exported to the US after their withdrawal,they remained in the UK,it was the GR7/9 models that went accross the pond.
I agree with you 100% about the treasury all three services need more money we are on cliff edge with WW3 pulling us over.
The Harriers that sit on the decks of USS America and her sisters are Sea Harriers not GR7/9’s. The Sea Harriers were originally sold to the US for spear parts to keep the USMC’s Sea Harriers operational but due to loses incurred by the USMC in Afghanistan these self same Sea Harriers were pressed into service to replace those loses. They will eventually be replaced by the F35B but just think with a little forward thinking what could have been with Sea Harriers sitting on the decks of HMS QE and PoW waiting to be replaced by a adequate number of F35’s
absolutely bonkers that they are retiring an aircraft that age wise compares favourably with the A400 …and still the aircraft of choice for airborne forces…
Allegedly going to be sold to Turkey along with typhoons and T23s!!!! Wtf
The 23 story is nonsense. Typhoon Tranch 1’s possible. Turkey’s having an issue with US Congress about buying new F16’s.
I’d hope so but 2 are going anyway and wouldn’t surprise me if the mod reduce the fleet to ten, regardless we shouldn’t be getting rid of any of the aircraft we have.
Getting rid of the hercs is one of the biggest wrong decision in a long line of wrong big decisions!
Scrapping the Hercs is another huge mistake by the MoD. The airframes may be old but, clearly, there is a need for them by our SF.
Withdrawing proven capability like the C130, doubtless to pay for an MoD cock-up elsewhere, is remarkably stupid even for MoD civil servants. The All-party Defence Committee should revisit this decision
If people think the U.K. MoD is bad they should check out the Der Spiegel international edition, specifically the Jan 14th edition. The German Defence Ministry is completely dysfunctional.
The German Defence Minister resigned shortly after this edition was published.
It’s also obvious why Germany is so reluctant to donate Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. While on paper they have 300 of them, the reality is only 160 are actually operational. They would also have issues with ammunition for them, as instead of having large store depots they have moved to a commercial ‘just in time’ model for munitions.
That was a big issue with the extre 100billion euro increase in that they were looking to spend 20 billion on ammo. The issue was the budget they had allow ever body to be paid and buy some equipment, but there were no money for spare parts,ammo or servicing. I believe Gavin Williamson when he was defence sec started a program to stock up on spare parts, ammo etc
Latest rumour is the Turk’s are buying them so hopefully can at the very least get a decent price for them
Such a shame, these warbirds could serve for several more years. Another false saving.
Though the historical irony here is that the RAF had the Short Belfast (operational in 1966) which had significantly greater capabilities than the C-130s of the 1960s AND the A400M essentially took them back to the Belfast! So, of course, the RAF only bought 10 and then sold them off in the mid-1970s. Wasting all that money to import American transports. At the same time they were obsessed with the F-111 and killed off the TSR.