United States Marine Corps F-35B jets have arrived in the UK ready to join British F-35Bs and a “full rotary wing group” onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth.

The vessel will sail later this month.

This is in preparation for next year when HMS Queen Elizabeth will deploy with two frigates, two destroyers, a nuclear submarine and support vessels.

Commodore Michael Utley, Commander United Kingdom Carrier Strike Group, is reported by Save The Royal Navy here as saying that HMS Queen Elizabeth will be escorted by two Type 45 destroyers, two Type 23 frigates, a nuclear submarine, a Tide-class tanker and RFA Fort Victoria.

Earlier in the year, HMS Queen Elizabeth cleared her penultimate hurdle for front-line duties after ten weeks around the UK, preparing for her maiden deployment in the new year.

“A final package of training in the autumn – working alongside NATO and US allies – will confirm her ability to act as a task group flagship, so that she can lead a potent carrier strike force on front-line operations anywhere in the world.”

The Royal Navy said at the time that in view of the size and complexity of the carrier, she received a dedicated training package, initially off the south coast, to test the ability of all 1,100 men and women on board to deal with everything they might expect to face in peace and war. The training package reached its climax with 18 fictional fire and flood incidents raging simultaneously – with the ship expected to continue flying operations while damage control teams toiled in the carrier’s depths.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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74 COMMENTS

  1. It’s such a shame we can’t save HMS Hermes for the nation! The Indians would sell it cheap! We could make it into a FAA museum and ex servicemen could work and volunteer. Instead it looks like it’s going to be broken up after failed attempts to bring Hermes home!!! Sad.

      • Yeah it’s sad! I was really hoping the petition and funding would come through … the government could get it back right now if they wanted to! Then donate it and help turn into a great positive project for ex servicemen and the like…

          • I’ll answer that with a question. What do you think some of the papers and media would say if the government or a major corporation stepped in to save her? Barring in mind she was laid down in the twilight years the Empire

          • I think I can guess one of the papers. I’d say they would be most likely to report it, without venturing an opinion. They may even, given its place in RN history, say it’s a good idea.

          • You can’t unmake history: all you can do is put it into context.

            Sun & Mail would have loved it.

            Guardian would have hated it.

            Telegraph would have pontificated about it with a leader by Max Hastings talking about improvised flat tops.

        • Cheers expat, interesting to look at it from that view, and the surrounding dicks and ships. Lots of street names In Mumbai Still have their british names.

        • It is nothing to do with not being ‘PC’, it just isn’t cost effective or logistically realistic to Preserve INS Viraat nee HMS Hermes.

          She is a very old vessel built during a period of Wartime construction measures and utterly worn out. She is also packed full of Asbestos making ongoing preservation extremely challenging. Just keeping her afloat would be an expensive never-ending exercise!

          Just keeping the contemporary but far smaller HMS Belfast preserved and afloat is a constant and costly challenge and she has the benefit of a full time albeit small staff dedicated to her maintenance.

          I would think a far better Idea would have been to purchase her Ski Jump and maybe her Island for preservation at the Fleet Air Arm Museum which would be a far more realistic proposition.

          • I recon even your suggestion of some limited preservation would draw criticism for parts of press and media. Its just easier not to bother these days. Even my local airshow has draw criticism from some suggesting the parading of ‘war machines’ no longer has a place in the UK today.

      • Sad we couldn’t save any of our ex ships! Lord knows we had enough of them! Belfast and a tiny destroyer and some sailing ships! Even Hms Bristol looks to be finished!! It really annoys me…

        • HMS Belfast is a good one. Good ship with a great history.
          Wish we could have saved: HMS Rodney, Warspite or Duke of York or any Battleship. There had been a prewar plan to keep HMS Iron Duke. Although By then a training ship stripped of 2 turrets, they had these kept in store. Unfortunately the Germans bombed her at Scapa and the cost of repair too high.

          • Rodney for her demolition of the Bismark,
            Wars pits for seeing the most action over two WWs.
            Both should have been saved.

    • I was in the navy and was there when hermes was sold to the indians , a grand old girl we should never have sold her realy .dont think the indians had a clue how to use her anway .

  3. He can test his eyesight trying to identify which ones are UK and which are USMC, rather than dangerously driving his wife and child around country lanes to a historic monument to do so.

  4. OK, but how many F-35s and helps are we actually talking about ??? According to Wiki, the peak Falklands air wing on Hermes was 16x SHAR, 10x GR3, 10x Sea King, and max during the 80s was 28x Harrier + 9 Sea King

    • Think it will be 18 F35’s, not sure exact number of helicopters for this exercise. They probably mean a normal Hermes air wing, not a wartime surge air wing.

      • Does this therefore mean that we have managed a like-for-like replacement in operational numbers of FFA carrier aircraft?

        • Compared to original Sea Harrier FA2 numbers, Yes. We only had 2 x front line Sea Harrier Sqns. 800 & 801 NAS, with 8 aircraft each. And 899NAS, which was the training sqn. But F35 numbers still have a long way to go. We will be able to deploy 24 British F35’s by 2023. ?

          • I guess that was the number in the early 80’s. When I served, 1999-2013 it was 2 frontline FA2 Sqn’s. And from 2006, Sea Harrier was retired. And 3 sqns operated the Harrier GR7/9. 1sqn, 4 sqn and the Naval strike wing located at RAF Cottesmore. And 20 sqn OCU at RAF Wittering.

          • Its interesting that the Total number of FA2 Sea Harriers available was around 52,mostly upgraded rebuilt FRS1’s and 18 New Built examples.

        • They are not so concerned about numbers, it’s the ability to generate an increased rate of sorties form the deck, which the F35 and the QE can do. By all accounts, it’s a massive increase of sortie generation on day 1 of a conflict, through to a slight decrease as the days progress. I’m sure some of the navy lads would be better informed than me.

          • While this is true, you’ll notice a huge decrease in sortie rates if some of your jets are shot down and you don’t have enough on the carrier to replace them. A greater number of jets also means denser combat air patrols/greater number of simultaneous strikes etc. While sortie rates are great, an adequate no. Of jets is still needed.

          • Agreed and I have always said that whatever platform you are using you have to have a minimum number you can never go below to make it viable, and, in many areas in the military we are at that point right now!

  5. It is embarrassing that we still don’t have enough of our own planes for our carrier. Its an open goal to foreigners and those Brits who don’t want to spend on defence, allowing them to ridicule our military in way it is difficult to defend.

    • Bringing new carriers, and new aircraft for new carriers is a very long and expensive business. Only the Americans will have the ability to take a 5th gen stealth fighter to sea. And the RN, on large deck aircraft carrier’s. Nobody thinks this countries Armed Forces are a laughing stock, quite opposite in fact. By 2023 we will be able to deploy 24 British F35’s on QE class carrier’s. A very serious capability indeed. And 36 is still the aim.

  7. Dominic Cummins is quite possibly the single most important non-elected member of government. He’s clearing out of government deadwood as well as re-writing the rules and regulations needed domestically and internationally for the UK to improve on its position as a technology innovator and powerhouse are desperately needed.
    In a changing world of Intellectual Property abuses and ‘technology-transfers for market access’ the UK needs to fully realise it’s potential as a technological giant, such as the likes of Japan.
    Otherwise the next 100 years will see the UK fade into obscurity and insignificance.
    While Cummins has his quirks, granted, it’s his genius that is key to the UKs vibrant technological future.

    • An unelected demigod more like – can’t believe Boris hasn’t the guts to take him down Totally lost my faith in the PM and his legacy? there will be only one. The total destruction of the UK. Brexit will pale into insignificance compared to the break up of the Union, and that will be all that will be remembered for generations to come. Anyway – back to Carrier Strike and Bravo Zulu the USMC.

      • Sorry but that’s just a load of bollox, being a guardian reading labour voter does not make you either anti British or anti defence. Stop making comments that have no meaning and engage in honest debate and discussion about this country defence needs, that’s what this site is for.

        I come to this site for a bit of decent comment on defence, not to be insulted for my reading or political view point by crap political rambling and tribalism.

        • Not all guardian readers agreed but certainly all it’s editors, reporters and contributors! The chuff the Guardian pushes out makes the DM look informed!

          • All the papers produce a load of tripe on occasion, that’s why I try to read wildly. I don’t have an issue with critiquing media. What gets my goat is people making sweeping statements about guardian reading lefty anti Britishness. I’m a lefty guardian reading Proud British person who believes our nation and it’s values are both worth defending and serving.

    • Didn’t Des Browne (Labour) sign the contract for the aircraft carriers? I think it was a Conservative Govt that cut the numbers of type 45 frigates and F35 on order and has proposed mothballing the Prince of Wales. So I assume you believe in cutting back our capabilities as you describe the ‘left’ as loonies?

  11. Great news, beginning to fill the decks at last. Does anybody know when this year’s delivery of 3 further F35Bs will take place? I assume it will be a job lot so they can all transit back together

  13. Lizzy’s official twitter feed says she’s will have 1,500 personnel onboard for the forthcoming exercises. She will be embarking an air group of about 15 F-35B’s and 6 Merlin’s – that’s getting respectable (unless you are the USN!) but still only half her designed capacity of 30 F-35B’s and 10 helo’s. She has accommodation for 1600 as standard, so it appears that a full air group could involve some uncomfortable overflow messing arrangements for several hundred personnel. During build, her core crew complement was listed as being about 670, however Jerry Kyd, her first seagoing Captain, discovered that that this unworkable and apparently reported that she needed 800. An increase of 70 was approved in early 2019, anyone know if it has been increased again? Also, there seemed to be plans for the QEC to always carry a company of RM’s when deployed. But there’s a notable lack any mention of this for next year’s CSG-21 deployment – although I expect that they will squeeze in a RM band, absolutely essential for PR and media clips when in far flung ports!

    • Most mess decks for JRs have 8 bunks but only 6 routinely used, so they’ll lose out on their spare two which converts to a sofa but they’re still pretty good spaces. Also imagining more SRs and Officers losing out on getting lucky with single/double occupancy of a double/quad rooms.

        • Oh they all have tellies too, very swanky 😉 though heard a few complaints from SRs that the junior rates these days all just hide away in their bunks with laptops and Netflix etc, so socialise less in the mess.

    • I thought the plan was the RM were going to deploy with a det of CHF Merlins for JPR.

      Given the costs of training fast jet pilots this area should get some attention.

  14. Arent the Americans having trouble with not having the ships upgraded to carry them. The Wasp class can carry 6 and the America class has a surge capacity of 20 but I believe the most they have ever put on one during surge testing was 13. So wouldnt QE be carrying more F-35 than any ship has carried to date?

    • Probably. She *is* the largest aircraft carrier designed to carry the B variant. I mean I guess the yanks could fly the B of their Nimitz class, but seem reluctant to do so.

      • I’d imagine it’d require redesign of the flight deck. The heat F35B kicks out particularly when landing is fairly significant. I’m sure they could land one on a Nimitz in an emergency, but without applying a new paint system they’d probably wreck the deck paint fairly rapidly.

      • Nah, don’t see any problem, we will be increasing to 48, of which 24 front line, over the next 4 years , with 6-8 a year, as full production starts next year.

        Not our fault that the F-35 has taken a good bit longer than hoped to be operationally ready. It is a very complex and sophisticated piece of kit and was always going to take time to mature the design and software. The idiotic HMG claimed, when folding the Sea Harrier into Joint Force Harrier, then scrapping the latter completely, that the F-35 would be entering service from 2012. That was news to the Americans, there was no prospect of it being ready for years, it was just another bit of rampant dishonesty by HMG to soft-soap another defence cut.

        • Poor planning as always by HMGov. Defence is their primary function and the military community is guilty of letting them forget it.

        • 2010 Government defence cuts flag waving, as with the Nimrod huge chunks of money had already been spent, but opportunity to wave the flag and show big savings (even where there weren’t in reality any) was too good to resist.

          I guess in the circumstances it was kind of understandable. If Police/Doctors/Nurses were all cut but no change to military public perception likely wouldn’t have been great.

    • Also poor planning by the US as ship upgrades are behind schedule and fire has taken out one of the ships that was supposed to home them.

    • No. As the F35 force builds up the initial deployment sees allies join the RAF/RN on the maiden deployment. It’s good training.
      In future years the UK will have more F35s so will be able to deploy alone if need be.
      But if a war breaks out, and the USMC uses QE, what’s the problem?

      • Daniele Mandelli – reasonable point. I have nothing but admiration for the USMC. I just wish we had secured more F35’s.

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