The massive submersible barge, one of the largest in Europe, will carry Type 26 Frigate HMS Glasgow down the river before ‘floating’ her off in the deep waters of Glen Mallan.
According to Malin Group, the barge will initially be used to transport and ‘launch’ the Type 26 Frigates being built by BAE Systems for the Royal Navy and then berthed on the Clyde and made available to industry as required, “catalysing further opportunities for the wider supply chain in fields including shipbuilding, civil construction and renewable energy”.
I went along to watch the barge arrive. Here’s the video.
The 137m long 'CD01', a semi-submersible barge operated by Malin Augustea, has arrived at the BAE shipyard in Govan. Type 26 Frigate HMS Glasgow will later be moved onto the barge which will then move to deep water before submerging and allowing HMs Glasgow to float off. pic.twitter.com/aZ5ALff8OJ
— George Allison (@geoallison) September 8, 2022
John MacSween, Managing Director of the Malin Group, said:
“Securing this piece of equipment marks another positive step forward in the reawakening of the shipping and large-scale marine manufacturing industry in Scotland. This versatile asset, based on the West Coast of Scotland, can be used for launching and bringing ships ashore, docking vessels locally or at remote locations as well as being used to relocate large structures around the UK and further afield.
We are delighted to continue our long-standing relationship with the internationally renowned tug and barge owner specialists Augustea, as well as work with Hat-San who are bringing years of shipbuilding experience to the conversion. We are also extremely grateful for the support we have had from Scottish Enterprise in making this project a reality.”
The barge is a joint venture between the Malin Abram and Augustea and, now modified, represents one of the largest in Europe – it can submerge to load vessels and cargo with draughts of up to 12m and over 137m in length.
It will be based on the Clyde between projects.
Specifications (via MalinGroup.com)
With a length of 137 metres and deck area of 4,200 square meters, the barge brings “an enviable resource to the banks of the River Clyde”, say the owners.
- Length Overall: 137.0m
- Beam: 36.6m
- Depth: 7.6m
- Max draught: 5.8m
- Dwt on max draught: 21,806 tonnes
- Deck area: 4,200m2
- Frame spacing: 2,500mm
- Deck loading: 20 tonnes per sq meter
- Point loads: Up to 750 tonnes
Which is great but it just highlights the absurdity of building ships the way we do adding layers of cost and complexity to the process. This must be adding a good few £100k, with all the tugs and capital costs etc, to the price of each ship. But let’s do the usual UK thing, sit back and wring our hands at the capital costs of sorting it out once and for all. Now comfortable we can go down the pub and roll our eyes at the costs of building ships this way and bemoan how few are built. It is… Read more »
lets not forget the reason for the fall of British ship building from the largest ship building industry on the planet to a bit players was essentially caused by a refusal of the ship building companies to invest in infrastructure and productivity. They made a bit more profit for a few more years at the cost of the utter destruction of their companies and industry.
See also: Car and motor bike manufacturers.
Indeed Barry.
See also: British manufacturing. Long live the share price.
You all hit that very long nail on the head.
Of course, we’ve got the future covered as well. Every time UK science and technology introduce another world beating innovation, I wonder who we’ll be importing it from.
Indeed Truss talks about making us a Nation of achievers (ignoring the Century of competing decline) yet the whole deeply rooted system is against that. The achievers, the innovators, the great minds and inventors have always been and are still there but few manage to break through the system that ignores or smothers them. From blue lasers to arm and it’s RISC technology those who understand and willing to finance the potential are inevitably from abroad. Sadly that won’t change the City culture won’t countenance such ventures certainly beyond the question ‘how long do you think it will take to… Read more »
The City is now losing out to the US when it comes to arranging the sell off these UK assets, to boot.
Certainly an irony that the centre of British Wealth the City, is equally the biggest anchor on actual British commercial and industrial achievement and innovation that once fuelled our growth. Business success becomes but a posh boys computer game to gain short term profit now, minimum risk maximum value to shareholders by selling out anything that becomes successful to foreign competitors.
The city enables leveraged buyouts like man utd. Some questions of the benefit of the city to longer term interests of UK.
Yes great irony the British motor bike Industry destroyed the US industry post war and was itself destroyed by the Japanese a decade later. Also one has to give a wry smile to the fact Royal Enfield by some measures is the largest motor bike producer in the World these days even if it’s now Indian. Makes more bikes than all European manufacturers put together. Worse still was at a classic car show last Sunday and how very depressing to look at those fantastic MGs only to think what that great brand has sunk to amongst all the other lost… Read more »
Thank you for referencing my old Corps, REME, who revived VW after WW2.
Aided and abetted by some very militant unions also. British Ship Building Ltd didn’t shine in that regard either with no mass consolidation or big yard plans that ever got anywhere. More tinkering at the edges. In those days there were plenty of big riverside sites for a consolidation. Trouble with a consolidation was it would have been one militant mess putting huge power in the local union branch’s hands. A decade or so ago I was engaged as a consultant to go round a recently closed industrial site that did defence and nuclear metal work (I won’t be too… Read more »
Yes it was a sad thing that militant union leaders almost fell into the hands of an industry that had no interest in investment and productivity…. a perfect storm sadly.
Sometimes investment is about having a plan and being incremental. Bit like IT estate.
Other times being bold is the way to go with ring fenced capital funding in place
Other problem was that as soon as the unions scented a profit they were All Out for a raise: so any investment cash just got soaked up. Vicious circle.
Is there a viable public/private plan for capital investment in shipyards? Thought that was one purpose behind the shipbuilding plan developed by Lord/Sir (Parker?) et.al.?
That was the purpose of the ship building plan as you rightly say.
It is hard to know how much is MOD telling BAE to stop mucking around and how much is commercial pressure from Babcock.
I do think there is something in the contract re T31 B2 otherwise the build hall would never have happened for 5 ships.
Ben Wallace did make it pretty clear that if T31 was built to budget then T32 would follow on.
Some recent instances that come to mind viz British Car Brands: Owned or significantly controlled by foreign concerns:- Aston Martin; Bentley; Lotus; JLR *; Mini; Rolls-Royce – these vehicles are built to a greater or lesser extent in the UK. I would believe this is significantly due to their iconic status and thus USP. British, Iconic Brand / British Owned **:- Ineos Genadier ‘traditional’ and thus Iconic Landy. Therefore ** decided best place to build was…..France!!! * from above. JLR depart from that logic by building latest Discovery in Slovakia Foreign Owned Brands built in the UK:- Nissan; Toyota –… Read more »
Spot on it all just runs so deep now that any change if at all possible will take generations. Indeed I fear that while we run governance from a building reeking of traditionalism and history with so much else directly or indirectly try tied in to or seriously influenced by its structures and strictures there is no chance of a change in mindset required to change our inherent attitude to business, comer e and trade, let alone a sense of innovation and future planning. When you can’t even introduce a system of pushing a button to vote over moving into… Read more »
To expand slightly on the Jim Ratcliffe * instance. We’ve been discussng groupwise British reluctance to invest in requisite infrastructure, and Grenadier is classic. From what we hear, the attention to design an prototype engineering was excellent, as we’d expect here. But when it came to production, the choice of creating manufacturing and employment opportunities in Wales, lost out to simply adopting a facility in France (for the local benefit). The Can’t Be Arsed option, essentially, ‘backed up’ by ‘logical’ accounting ‘principals’, at least as received by our noble leaders. * Sir James Ratcliffe, billionaire, as generally referred to. Sir… Read more »
Indeed. 7 different unions all set up on a caste system based on relative skills, fundamentally anathema ironically to socialist ideals. If any one union agreed a deal, all others, especially those above expected a deal to maintain the relative pay and conditions structure and differential making industrial relations a total unsustainable nightmare once true competition which a dying Empire system could no longer suppress came along. When Japan (later others) entered, usually with no more than one union to interact with, it was only a matter of time before our own chaotic structure and industry collapsed under the arrogant… Read more »
Who ever said that UK unionism had anything to do with socialist principles?
Them
!!!!!
Sounds like Upstairs/Downstairs Tactics Or Bowler-hatted Management and the Blue-collared Shipyard Workers who really Build the Merchant Shipping Vessels and, in the Present Day UK, Selected MOD Shipyards Build the Modern Day Royal Navy Warships and Fleet Auxiliaries for Maintenance of the Warships-at-Sea whilst in the Service of HM the Queen Elizabeth II until very recently and, From Now, HM King Charles III for the Defence of the UK and UK Interests Overseas: If I’m not mistaken, It would seem that from a Nearby Window I can fairly easily get sight of a Very Significant HM Ship bearing the name… Read more »
The story of British Industry, those who made/make (are you listening Karren Brady in respect of Arcadia) their fame and success ( not to mention honours) on squeezing every last penny out of a business short term but making in the process a business incapable of investing for the longer term to adapt to competition and create a sustainable business. The difference between BL and Renault both lame ducks at the time with very different views of using investment and end results. That has been (with some notable exceptions) the history of running big business in the UK under the… Read more »
The story of British industry was also lead by the covert and lazy minded acceptance that offshoring production was easier than reforming management, unions and workforces and supply chains.
It also, just about, worked in terms of costs then but not so much now.
In France offshoring jobs wasn’t acceptable as the price of progress and the likes of Nissan were also not interested in setting up factories in France: due to the social contract.
Don’t forget bad design. Derbyshire was a British ore-bulk-oil combination carrier built in 1976 by Swan Hunter, as the last in the series of the Bridge-class sextet. She was registered at Liverpool and owned by Bibby Line. Derbyshire was lost on 9 September 1980 during Typhoon Orchid, south of Japan. All 42 crew members and two of their wives were killed in the sinking. At 91,655 gross register tons, she is the largest British ship ever to have been lost at sea. Heavy seas breaking over the bow sheared off the weak covers of small ventilation pipes. Over the next… Read more »
To be fair bulk carriers built by all nations have a really poor record, they are very compromised ships really sitting on the edge of safe design vs capacity. Infact on average 5 bulk carriers founder each year.
The intercargo casualty report is an interesting read, they do it every ten years, the last one was 2009 to 2018. With 48 bulk carriers lost in that decade. The biggest loss of life was caused by cargo liquefying(9), most ships were lost by grounding(19), 6 were lost by flooding and 6 just disappeared into the deep.
Don’t forget everyone they wanted to invest it would normally result in job losses and the unions kicked off. Also the yards were too small for modern ships
hi Si, it was a to be fair a joint effort With most industries, but with the shipping industry, it’s catastrophe failure to invest happened before Unionisation really hit.
I remember Jeremy Clarkson’s piece about the decline of the British car industry. His summing up statement was something along the lines of:
“Who’s to blame for the death of the British car industry, the unions, the management or the government? The answer is all of them.”
Exactly.
Eh? Not sure why you think this is more expensive than having to completly build a ship on a slipway then having to launch it for fitting out. Its ok if you want to builld one ship at a time but not so good if you are building two or three at a time unless you have a HUGE shipyard…Wierdly enough its actually easier and less risky to build a large complex ship in modules, assemble these together into larger units then integrate (key word here) these to be a whole ship then move off a horizontal hardstanding area to… Read more »
I am slightly lost as to you comment. Modular build of ships is the way to go. Building modules remotely and barging them to places a la QEC is NOT the way to go as it costs loads of money and time to move the modules and then you add weather and other delay factors to the program. If you want to go modular do exactly as Babcock or better still the Australians have done with their setup. TBH I think it is more looking at the cost line experiences from the test modules for T26 made in Australia that… Read more »
Actually a lot of the American warships are launched in exactly the same way. The alternative is a ship lift. They don’t tend to use slipways anymore
I wasn’t suggesting the barge itself was a bad idea.
What I was suggesting was that trying to do heavy works like this in a series of cramped areas that are not optimally organised is not the most cost effective solution.
Even with the frigate shed in place the site seems a bit small for a really efficient line that doesn’t involve needless and expensive choreography.
They know the limitations which is why they are building a new big hall where the current basin is , so they can build several warships at once built inside and then rolled straight out into a submersible barge
I think it has been ground into their faces by both Babcock the Australian warship factory that the inefficiency of their yard made zero commercial sense. HMG will have access to the build hours and build costs for the first UK T26 and for the test modules in AUS as well as T31 data and will apply pressure accordingly. BAE will have data from both T26 lines so will be able to compare and contrast….. It is pretty hard to argue with the hard evidence and BAE couldn’t just keep shrugging their shoulders and hope HMG would blindly subsidise their… Read more »
Maybe so, plus they have had problems ( puzzlingly) with some of the hull welds because they are exposed to the elements. Which begs the question what will happen when she is in the water.
The issue is more the precision T26 is made to in order to, presumably, reduce hull noise.
I remember looking at a T42 and thinking how unbelievably roughly it was aligned externally.
Things have moved on a lot.
I have no doubt and the T26 is designed to do the most dangerous job. I am just surprised it is such a problem that it is causing them to have to redo welds. My only thought is that in the open air it will experience a far greater range of temperatures and gradient than it would in the water.
Hull welds no problem in the water as the paint system is designed to guard the steel rom corrosion & will be up to scratch before going in.
I doubt it is straight corrosion and even if it was , given the length of time they expected alto have ger sitting out in a semi marine atmosphere I would have assumed they would have taken steps to protect against corrosion until she was ready for ger paint.
It depends on how the weld was done. It is doubtful that they used SMAW ( Shielded Metal Arc Welding- Ye old metal stick from days of yore!) It would have been GTAW (TIG) ( Gas Tungsten Arc Welding using an inert gas shield) which gives a far superior weld with little need for rework(Grinding) and at a far higher linear feet of weld /hour completion rate. The issue with GTAW/TIG is the weld head electrode should be surrounded by a bubble of inert gas such as CO2 or Argon. If you dont protect the work area adequately the gas… Read more »
If I’m not mistaken, the Intended “Far Deeper Waters for Floating-off the Submersible Barge” would seem to be Relatively Close-by Significant Other HM Surface Fleet Investments Developed in Very Recent Times and in certain Past Decades Since 1940s and Royal Navy Armaments Modernisation Processes. Having a Maternal Relatives’ Loss of Life in the Family Connections during the Battle of the Atlantic, Involving a Royal Navy Convoy Commodores’ Destroyer Escort versus U-Boat Wolfpacks in the Atlantic Gap in Early 1940s, It would seem that I have developed a rather keen interest in Deeps, Dolphins and Royal Navy and Other Nation States… Read more »
And Canadian. Here is an interesting video from 2018 showing the launch of HMCS Harry Dewolf, the first of class of the new Arctic and Offshore Patrol Vessels:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jP5f7z-SMA
I take it they get a couple of tea drinking blokes to shift HMS Glasgee from A to B
3 or 4 with a couple of apprentices I believe!!!😂
‘You um it son i’ll play it’ Best ad ever.
“Then they mash them all to blts”.
2nd best ! 😂
Its good news that Bae are finally getting their act together with investment in upgrading the Govan yard.
Nevertheless one asks why this wasn’t done when the Type 45’s were built or even with the River 2’s.
Bad management plus ridiculous failure of Government to invest consistently in the RN in the past.
Finally and hopefully we have now begun to turn the corner with UK shipbuilding unless the SNP screws it up as their complete failure at Ferguson’s and more generally, shows is their way.
To be fair the fall of the British ship building industry was not caused by RN purchases or lack of them. It was an industry that thought it was to big to fail and refused to invest in modernisation of infrastructure and productivity. A failure of a business model that was only interested in short term profit not long term viability.
You can’t really blame the SNP for Ferguson’s. Only mistake they made was giving the contract to the Scottish yard, then needing to take ownership of the yard to get the ships finished.
It seems like they are making progress on the ships now. What will happen to the yard after is anyone’s guess.
Yes that was the way with BL inset to save jobs rather than invest to develop and sustain a viable business for the future which require fundamental changes at all levels for the most part rather than hoping for the best if we just keep it going for a bit, or leaving others to solve that problem when you have gone. You are seen as the saviour when in reality you have created the scenario for future failure that others get blamed for,
any idea on the dates for the float off ??
Lets hope that the new Shed can fasten the build rate of the type 26 from every 2 years to maybe 1.5 or even 1.25 (15 months). We need more ships faster, hopefully 3% defence spending by 2030 means we can have a few more 26s
Unless that money goes towards solving all the current issues with equipment and service accommodation etc.
Its going to go on new buttons, cap badges, belt buckles and rate badges!
BAE are already building the ships slowly due to the number ordered and the need to keep the skills retained. They could be built faster now if they had enough work to take them to T83.
Currently one every 2 years, believe batch 2 should be every 1.5 years. Wonder how quickly they could with this new building and not needing to join them up???
type 31s can be built every 12 months but the type 26 are bigger and more complex, maybe every 15 months at the max
Is that barge intended to move the frigate they are not building in Scotland?
It’s amazing how little room there is on that site, especially the lack of external hardstand facilities, simply no room to have more than one ship fitting out externally at any one time. The old naval shipyards here in Australia in NSW and Victoria, were a like that. The smart move the Government here did, was to build on a new ‘greenfield’ yard from scratch in SA. Firstly for the Collins subs, expanded for the Hobart DDG, expanded again for the Hunter FFG, will be expanded further for the future SSN fleet. The whole site is owned by Australian Naval… Read more »
I totally agree with the concept of a state of the art integrated facility.
Yes. Those facilities are very impressive.
This is a more recent video animation produced by BAE Australia specifically about the Hunter construction on the Osborne South SA site:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6vCiE5oHw
they don’t fit out there, they do that downstream at Scotstoun.
It is a good way the Australians have done it with the shipyard. I bet any company in the uk would jump at the chance to get a new purpose built facility in the uk.
Forward thinking eh over short term sorting out a developing mess.
Big question for me before getting distracted by more strategic matters here, is how do they get that Frigate onto the barge? Be a shame to lose it in the process.
Multi wheel self propelled tractor units are how we do it. One guy with a wireless joystick can move just about anything. We moved a complete Rig derrick unit weighing 3000T from off of the rig alongside the jetty. Then along the jetty to the scrapping area. All done by one guy and his control unit.
Below is an idea of the type of thing you use.
Canada as well. The Halifax Shipyard purpose built a new facility to construct the CSC. It is currently being used to build the Arctic and Offshore Patrol vessels for the RCN, of which 3 have been delivered, and3 others are in various stages of construction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPf-hikK9o8
Actually the Halifax shipyard is more like the BAE UK shipyard. The Halifax assembly hall is not long enough, even for the AOPVs, the two halves have to be transported outside for consolidation, same as the BAE Yard. The Osborne South Shipyard here in Oz is huge, huge land area too, see the video below. The assembly hall is much longer than the Hunter FFGs, the ship is only transported outside to instal the mast, etc. The hardstand is also long enough to have two ‘completed’ hulls, end on end, being worked on before launch. Have a closer look at… Read more »
Mate, the good thing here in Oz, is actually two things. Firstly, the site is both very large and very modern too. Any builder ‘contracted’ to produce ships (currently BAE Systems Australia in the case of Hunter class FFGs), can’t complain that production is hindered because of shortcomings in the infrastructure, that would be laughable. Secondly, at the end of the Hunter FFG project, the plan is to start on the DDG replacements. If BAE wins that future competition, they stay on site, if they loose to another builder’s design, they leave and the new builder becomes the next ‘tenant’… Read more »
Thanks George. Great work!
Slightly off topic, but remaining on water. Here is a video taken by
a Russian Soldier from the back of a truck as it crosses a pontoon bridge across a river in the Kherson region when the bridge gets hit.
All this crap about modernisation of the shipbuilding industry, pre-WW2 the USA was producing far better steam machinery for its warships. The builders here refused to improve yet still made profits during the war.
Ye olde story.
There in lies the self destruction post war. Due to lack of completion we ended up producing 60% of the Worlds motorbikes and though I can’t remember the figure but saw it recently and it shocked me a very big percentage of cars too amongst no doubt all manner of industrial output outside of the US. There were quick profits which the Country was grateful for considering we were effectively bankrupt. No need to invest or introduce new designs or innovation and by the time that started to decline as the world recovered and built anew with new enforced technology… Read more »
Very sorry to learn of the death of Queen Elizabeth. The end of an era that encompasses the period since WW II!
… apologies…Queen Elizabeth II.
George – I note in your headline the statement that she will be floated off at Glen Mallen. Is that really the intention as that will be a long barge tow down river into Loch Long and then another tow to bring both vessels back?
It was always planned that the frigate would go down to Glen Mallan and then back up to Scotstoun (where it’s not deep enough to float off). I’m not sure if it will necessary to bring the barge back though. It’ll be a year or two before Govan needs it for the next one and I’d guess it will have other work in the meantime. I’d be interested to know why Glen Mallan. I’d guess they’d want somewhere out of the way so that shipping lanes aren’t blocked if it all goes horribly wrong. But isn’t that where the ammunition… Read more »
I wonder where it will berth / how it will fit when they fill in the basin, as planned, and build the covered build hall (hopefully in time for Type 26 number 4).
Will the barge fit across the basin? Maybe the ship will move a bit and it comes onto the barge more diagonal.
Any news on actual launch day set yet?
Be good to watch. Not as exciting as slide down the ramp job. That would be great to see.
Will the ship be coming off the barge on the same day in deeper water?
Trying to see if a day trip would cover it
This will be like our version of Starship difficult to see how they do it till they actually do it. Can’t imagine it will sit astride the barge surely but if it goes on diagonal then that will be some manoeuvring I reckon. How were the Type 45s done? As for when the new shed is built I guess it will simply be backed up to it and the Frigates rolled on lengthwise which looks far more straightforward. However it begs the question what happens when they are building it. While at Boca Chica they build massive structures in a… Read more »
Actually looking at the pic I see that there is an angled section to the river wall just in front of the Bow of the frigate, which if the barge end is placed against it will no doubt rest the side of the barge against the edge on the other side of the basin opening to which it can no doubt be secured, so both ends are thus secured. The frigate can then be moved forward slightly turned and then manoeuvred onto and along the barge . It explains why plans for the the new shed fall slightly short of… Read more »
Mate,
There used to be a video, a CGI Video, on YouTube that showed exactly how you explained it.
The end of the barge was placed into the ‘cutout’ directly in front of the bow of the Frigate.
The frigate was then ‘driven’ from the hardstand onto the barge.
I believe it was a BAE Systems promo video, but I can’t find it again.
Cheers,
Dumb question. Know nothing about building ships, but how does it get onto the barge ? Does it get lifted onto it ? does it go sideways down the slipway onto the barge, in which case, whats the barge even for ?
The Ship will be be Wheeled onto the Shiplift /Barge using a special Trailer, Ship will be secured, Trailer removed, then the Barge will be towed out to a designated point when it will be lowered into the water, then the Ship is free to Float off.
Seems a bit long winded ?
I am just bewildered by all of this article and most of the comments. The barge will transport the Ship right down the Clyde to Glen Malin where it will be floated off and towed back up the Clyde to Scotstoun to be outfitted. HMS Daring was block built and the blocks assembled on the Slipway right next to where the T26 is, and she is bigger than a T26 and launched down the slipway. So why wasn’t the T26 built the same way ? As for lack of investment it comes squarely down on the shoulders of BAe. If… Read more »
With regards to the frigate factory on the Clyde it was also put forward as an incentive to get the order in quicker. BAE offered to do the frigate factory if the MOD hurried up and ordered 13 type 26 frigates. Instead it was delayed and the yard was given 5 rivers to build to keep the skills active. Then the MOD only ordered 8 type 26. I get BAE not wanting to invest loads of cash in ship building in 2014. There had been so much talk of C1/C2/C3 ships being ordered in large numbers, then type 26 in… Read more »
Seven years later, and they still haven’t announced the ordering of the last five. I really hope it’s going to be a quicker build this time.
Fair rant tbh. Thx for answering my question about the T45 build btw. Not sure about the Bae decision to originally cancel the Frigate Factory. Was it due to the referendum and concerns about building ships in Scotland, Did they need Govt to sort out their own plans thinking on this matter. Was it because they didn’t get confirmed contracts for builds to want to invest. Was it arrogance on their part expecting big Govt help, was the planning problems a big factor? We’re they even contemplating if they wished to stay committed to warship building? Combination of all/some of… Read more »
Read the article, it was post referendum and would have been pretty efficient. But with the need to service the QE’s, build the new RFA ships etc, etc. We really need a new deep water construction yard with a large Drydock an overhead gantry and room to expand. It ticks all the boxes.
Lets hope it floats’!
Was HMS Daring not built at Scotstoun rather than Govan? The angle of the slipway at Scotstoun allows for a longer transition into the water. I remember that one of the ships launched at Govan some years ago (HMS Ocean maybe) hit the opposite bank on launch. Perhaps this influences their thinking in how to get the ship into the water.
I’m from Long Beach California and I see The Queen Mary most days up close. Could two or three of these get Her out of the water for onsite hull repairs, painting, etc, below Her waterline?? Thank you for your time,
Scott Travison, fan of the ol girl…