Tomahawk missiles take out Houthi radar site

Meanwhile.

January 12, 2024 at 2:20 PM

“PARIS — The French military has placed an order for over €5 billion ($5.5 billion) from aircraft-maker Dassault Aviation and partners Thales, Safran and MBDA for 42 more Rafale fighter jets to be delivered between 2027 and 2032, the government announced today.

For France this is the fifth tranche of jets from the Rafale program, bringing the total to 234 aircraft — 13 ordered in 1993, 48 in 1999, 59 in 2004, 60 in 2009, 12 in 2021, and now 42 in 2023.

The 42 single-seat aircraft will come in the standard 4 configuration but will be able to be upgraded to standard 5, scheduled to be introduced in the mid-2030s notably to allow the Rafale to fly in collaborative combat with remotely piloted aircraft, according to the French procurement agency DGA.

Dassault began developing standard 4, which focuses on improved connectivity, in 2018. The first increment was qualified by DGA last March.”

I guess like our supposedly defunct but in reality still effective older Eurofighter batches, they are looking to retire either older batches or simply add mass. Unlike our beloved cut cut cut cut and then cut some more.
You really couldn’t make it up.

But JSM doesn’t fit into F35B stealth bay – as we have been over numerous times on here.

I do totally agree that we need one platform with JSM type functionality and it should really be F35B because of its carrier role.

To be honest we don’t even need heavyweight anti ship missiles to be in the bays..any attack on ships is usually from below the radar horizon anyway, with a pop up before launch…it’s pretty easy for an aircraft to get within strike range of a ship…the only time you need the stealth is of your trying to crack an integrated air defence system with airborne radar. We should procure one of the options and not wait for an option that fits in the bays…time is ticking.

Ive sort of changes my mind around how our procurements should go..simply put I think we are on a countdown to a very big problem and we need a procure and get in service now type paradigm and not wait for the optimum/best.

I never suggested that the Bats should have NSM or the like.

I was suggesting that the Albions should have NSM and Sea Ceptor as the core systems are there.

They can then chug around doing valuable protection roles as well as being able to put an umbrella over Bays and Points as and/or providing supporting fires from NSM in their primary roles.

We are very short of grey war canoes and these are good ones that can be readily adapted.

Bit of a Miss understanding supportive, when I said bays I meant the weapons bay of the the F35b not the bay class. I don’t think we need to wait for a heavyweight anti ship missile that fits into the weapons bays of the the F35b we can just have them on the wing pylons as you don’t need stealth to attack single ships ( you can use the radar horizon to hide) you only need stealth when you are trying to crack an integrated air defence system which has a airborne radar element which removes the ability to hide behind the radar horizon. I don’t think we should fit Anti ship missiles to the bays, that would be odd.As an aside I do agree we could up arm the albions as they are well built warships with good sensors.

Ah

That makes more sense!

It does make sense to give the albions AD ,has went doing beach head Assault air cover is vitile has we learnt in the Falklands conflict .However this won’t happen ,has word has it both ship’s could be for the chop 😕

I think the whole offensive and defensive package for amphibs and RFAs needs re-evaluating. Following the massive shrinkage to the frigate fleet.

Previously it has always been the task of the GP frigate to provide both the local air defence and any offensive requirement. However, that was when we had a lot more frigates to play with. Today, not only has the threat to shipping has changed, but also the availability of any escort vessel. We have seen non-state actors can get their hands on a plethora of weapons. Ranging from traditional anti-ship missiles, anti-ship ballistic missiles, anti-tank guided weapons, suicide drones and explosive laden drone boats.

Therefore the game has changed. No longer can the amphibs and RFAs be reliant on the the Navy’s frigates and destroyers. But they must also now share the burden. However, what can be done without drastically requiring structural modifications and without costing too much?

MBDA have shown a model of a semi-mobile CAMM system that can be modular to Land Ceptor. This is 8 to 16 cell launcher that can be dropped off at a location and networked to a Land Ceptor battery. The CAMM cells are contained in a small ISO container, that has a self-contained power source and data-link. It is dropped off by a “Drops” truck, where it is tipped up so that the long side is vertical. Could this be something that could be fitted to a ship as a rotational asset?

Both Albion and Bulwark have the Artisan radar. This is part way there. They would then require the CMS and the data-link. If a space can be found for one or preferably two CAMM containers, that doesn’t incur on to the flight deck space. This could be a quick solution to providing local air defence. The Bays would need a better radar, the Sea Giraffe is a good and cheaper option than the T31s NS100 or Artisan.

The ships will need a cheaper solution for protection against suicide drones. The DS30 has been successfully used by Diamond against drones. But its range and ammunition isn’t really geared for air defence. The BAe/Bofors Mk4 40mm would be better. As it can use proximity fuzed ammunition, which will be particularly good against drones. Plus if tied to the Artisan etc, will provide all weather defence against most air targets.

If the amphips are operating in the littorals, then surely they would be best placed for providing fire support to shore parties? Clearly it would cost too much to modify the ships for the installation of surplus 4.5″ systems and the the BAe 5″ will be way too costly. Which sadly means no large calibre gun system.

However, the ship could mount a similar container based system for land attack missiles. With the preference being surface launched Brimstone and Spear 3. Thereby giving the ship the ability to project to at least 50 miles inland. other cheaper options would be Martlet and APKWS. Where both especially Martlet have been proven against airborne targets as well as ground targets.

The other obvious choice would be for the ship to deploy its own suicide/loitering drones. That can provide both surveillance and overwatch. For such a mission it would need a large number. As the Ukraine War has shown, they can be game changer.

This would also be a requirement for the RFAs we have. That can be travelling on their own for a lot of the time. Giving them CAMM and a pair of Mk4 40mm guns. Would significantly boost their defensive capability.

Completely agree…infact the use of the amphibious vessels could be completely re-envisaged. The fight for the littoral is going to be dominated by drones and one thing the amphibious vessels have is lots of space for drones, big fight decks for airborne drones and well decks for surface and subsurface drones…infact the 21c amphibious vessel is likely to be a drone warfare vessel as you will need huge numbers of drones to dominate the littoral.

JSM not exactly heavy weight neither is Marte ER. You might find 6 SPEAR would be more effective against a modern warship.

Few ASM are going to sink a destroyer or larger sized vessel outright. One hit to the radar and it’s pretty much useless.

Indeed in the long run spear three will be a very effective anti shipping missile that will be ideal for overcoming integrated air defence systems..but its still developmental..we need to be putting in place operational capabilities now and in the near future..I fear the clock is ticking and something that may be operational in 2028 is not going to deter our enemies in the next 4 years ( unfortunately we wasted the years we had and have now it the critical point where immediate deterrence is needed).

“I fear the clock is ticking and something that may be operational in 2028 is not going to deter our enemies in the next 4 years”

Spot on.

Tell that to Storm Shadow

Scuttlebut is that there is a JSM in development for F35B internal carriage. The USMC is said to be very interested as part of its island hoping strategy in the pacific.

“Island hoping,” as opposed to island hopping? Curious, Freudian slip? Critique of USMC strategy in the Indo-Pacific? Or simply a typing issue (frequently have a few myself)? 🤔😉

“But JSM doesn’t fit into F35B stealth bay”

I know, I was talking about Typhoons hence the reason for saying “which could also be added to the Typhoons arsenal in relation to my post on MARTE giving the RAF two options.

No doubt Tempest will be able to fit the JSM internally when it arrives in the 2030s.

Given that state of finances I cannot see two air launched ASM’s being bought…..

One would do nicely?

And the Swiss Army knife is F35 in UK use.

Will the MARTE require TR-3/Block 4 (now 2029) and an engine upgrade? FOC for either will be when on our F-35B?

I was looking for something a little bit sooner given the current state of play.

“An important milestone has now been achieved, with the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) passing the last of its planned tests in the missile qualification programme. The development phase of the JSM is now in its final stage and is scheduled for completion in autumn 2018.

“This is very good news for the Norwegian Armed Forces and Norwegian industry. What is now remaining is the integration of the JSM on the F-35 in what is known as the Block-4 update”, says Program Director Morten Klever of the Ministry of Defence.”

“As for when exactly Block 4 F-35s will enter the EW arena, the current goal is for TR-3 to roll out with new production Lot 15 through 17 F-35 deliveries. Lockheed Martin is hoping to begin delivering Lot 15 jets in mid-2023.

According to Air Force budget justification documents for Fiscal Year 2023, all F-35s from Lot 5 to Lot 14 will be retrofitted with TR-3.
 
Then, the corresponding Block 4 upgrades to follow aren’t projected to wrap until 2029, if everything goes as intended. Block 4 will be introduced beginning with Lot 17 F-35s.”

Typhoon.

Stealth TechnologyOne solution to the problem of combat aircraft survive ability is to use low-observable (Stealth) technology to escape or delay detection. But although such fifth-generation aircraft are very hard to detect using current radars, these aircraft are not invisible, and are becoming progressively easier to detect as counter-stealth technologies are being rapidly developed and deployed. Mark Hewer, Leonardo’s vice president for the Integrated Mission Solutions Business, points out that: “You cannot easily modify a stealth platform to counter new high-end threats, because you can’t redesign the skin of your aircraft, or its internal structure, or its configuration. You have got what you have got.

This means that when new radars are introduced that erode the low observability of fifth-generation fighters, there will be little that can be done to counter that or to restore the combat advantage enjoyed by these aircraft. By contrast, EW systems are able to evolve to take account of this dynamic threat, in a way that stealth aircraft cannot. They can be upgraded and updated, incorporating new hardware and software.

US Mission Data Capabilities
The US has tried to provide its ‘first tier’ F-35 customers with a sovereign Mission Data capability, but there is still a very heavy reliance on the US for F-35 Mission Support Capabilities.

The ACURL (Australian/Canadian/ UK Reprogramming Laboratory) is not really agile, and is permanently based at Eglin AFB in the USA, which mitigates against rapid and frequent Mission Data reprogramming.

By contrast, the UK has the tools, knowledge and infrastructure necessary for re-programming the Typhoon EW system in the Mission Support Centre at RAF Coningsby, and also in the Joint EWOS Centre at RAF Waddington, which Hewer singled out as being: “an absolute world-leading example of a Centre of excellence in creating Mission Data.”

We have FC/ASW on the way for typhoon scheduled by 2027 ish.

🙏

It really doesn’t matter that the JSM/NSM can only fit on the pylons of the F-35B, its a stealth missile so won’t effect the RCS of the plane much. they designed a variant of the AIM-9x that is stealth as well as a pylon and found it doesn’t raise the RCS at all to have those mounted externally, and bizarrely they found it actually lowers the RCS from certain angles.

I completely agree it should be one of our key defence priorities to be honest..I would have preferred to have seen NSMs on typhoon and f35 than on frigates ( well I would prefer them on both..but if it was one or other the Heavyweight anti ship missile capacity should have been placed on our fixed wing aircraft first and escorts second).

Agreed and on both as you quite rightly say.

That’s a bit rich of them. The USAF wouldn’t even consider the JSM, but now the NSM is being bought and widely used by the USN and USMC they are.
But Norway had to fund LM to integrate it for use in the F35, its part of Block 4. We had to do the same for Meteor and SPEAR.

That is paying back in the extra sales.

“ we have a good missile at a very reasonable price point that is plug and play”

Sounds a lot better than

“ we have a good missile at a very reasonable price point that is might be integrated one day”

Hi Nigel, i think you could add JSM for the P8s too. The UK might need to top up its sub Tomahawks and maybe get some ship launched versions on order for the T31s MK41s. Imagine if the T45s had MK41s….

Hi Quentin D63, yes, all very good points.

When you take into account the size of the Chinese Navy for example which will reach some 400+ ships by all accounts come 2030, it seems pointless trying to match their numbers with ships but rather increase the amount of long-range anti-ship missiles at your disposal to meet the potential threat.

Now take into account the cost of building a Type 26 (UK Batch 1: £1.31 billion) and the fact that we have just allocated £2.5 Billion for FY2024 to Ukraine.

Eurofighter Typhoon: around $124 million. 24 Nov 2023

LRASM $3 million per missile
JSM $3.35 million
Tomahawk (Block V) Export cost: $4 millionMARTE ER ???

” The Navy on Tuesday issued Raytheon a $217 million contract to build 154 Tomahawk missiles for the Navy, Army and Marine Corps, the Defense Department announced.

The contract is to buy a total of 154 Block V Tomahawk missile systems, with 54 systems going to the Marine Corps, 70 to the Navy and 30 to the Army, according to the May 24 Defense of Department contract awards.”

“Demand exploding for Tomahawk missiles as US backs latest foreign sale WASHINGTON ― Australia plans to buy the latest version of America’s long-range Tomahawk land attack missile in a $985 million deal announced Thursday.

It’s the latest in a surge of demand for the Raytheon Technologies-made Tomahawk, after U.S Navy officials said this week their proposed budget, with foreign military sales, would max out the production line.
Japan’s new budget would reportedly bulk-buy 400 Tomahawks for as much as $1.6 billion, among other counterstrike capabilities.

The State Department approved a U.S.-Australia deal for up to 200 Block V and 20 Block IV rounds, plus related support, according to the Defense Security Cooperation Agency announcement.

Canberra has said the missiles would be fielded on its Hobart-class destroyers, enabling them to strike land targets at greater distances, with better precision. Variants of the Block V can change targets in flight and strike moving targets at sea.

Tomahawk’s range of more than 1,000 miles is especially important in the Asia-Pacific region, where China’s rocket force has extraordinary reach as its DF-26 and DF-21 missiles have ranges of 2,490 and 1,335 miles respectively, according to the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

The U.S. Navy in 2021 began fielding the Block V Tomahawk for the vertical launching systems on surface ships, but also on attack submarines that can more easily operate within range of China’s rocket force.”

Jeeze, these missiles and platforms are all at inflationary prices!!! Guess nothing cheaper on Black Friday sales…. Lol 😁
If the UK ever goes for more TLAMs they’ll be in a queue behind Aus, Japan and I think the Netherlands too. The UK’s FCASW should cover both AShM and LA if they’ll get both types and they’ll need to be MK41 compatible. But if new stocks are needed right now it basically looks like NSM, TLAM and LRASM off the 🛒 shelves. The powers that be must be watching all their inventory levels very closely at the moment. It’s good the UK is committed to helping Ukraine with more missiles and systems and resupplies for the UK, they need to be happening all the time. It’s no time to be caught short with anything!

All very true, but far far cheaper than 400+ ships and the men and women to crew them!

I look at £6 Billion over four years and what we could get for it including missiles, extra P8s, and Typhoons.

For an Island Nation, that would serve as a very useful deterrent.

22 Nov 2023

“Each P-8A costs roughly $175 million to manufacture according to the United States Navy’s annual budget. All of that money goes to outfitting what is essentially a passenger plane with not only an array of sensors to hunt for threats, but also act when such threats are identified.”

Those P8s positively look like a bargain! Can you put an order in for another three? Just dreamin’.. Lol 😁

We can but…😜

They are totally made up words

Joined upperey is the idea of joining things up

fuckeduppery is fucking up being joined up.

the learning here is that ability and willingness to abuse the English language that the English have compared to our US cousins who are profoundly more conservative in regards to the English language.

you in the US have had far less linguistic drift that in the Uk. Your pronunciations and dialects are far closer to the dialects of the original settles from the UK than the present English dialects.

apart from the word pronunciation of the word tomato in which case you in the US are totally wrong.

They have to waste money on Kusnetsov as they can’t build a replacement. Their largest and best shipyards were Ukrainian and now there is the small matter of the war Russia started stopping the Russian navy from building any warship over say 5000 tons without it being built in China. China has the shipbuilding capacity to help rebuild the Russian fleet but will Putin be prepared to go cap in hand to China and complete the transition to Russia being China’s 2nd fiddle?

So not cheap then😂

😅

He said rowing boats not half deflated, leaky rubber dinghy

If we’re selling them it will defiantly be cheap 😅

There is a really good market for them in France – hadn’t you heard?

Border Farce sell them over in France to defray their costs. They say they can sell the good ones many times over.

……jokes.

They are keeping the ,”Dover flotilla” for the next Dunkirk style retreat from Europe. We have thousands of them but the original crew are being retained in the UK and looked after very well, as a contingency in case the “Dover fleet” is ever needed.