Babcock is gearing up to showcase its frigate project credentials during ‘Defence Exhibition Athens’ to promote its bid to deliver the Hellenic Navy’s new frigates.

Supported by the UK Government, Babcock has been fine-tuning its comprehensive and compelling programme to provide the Hellenic Navy with a Hydra Class upgrade programme, an interim frigate capability and four Babcock Arrowhead 140 frigates.

“Babcock’s industrial strategy would see it support the modernisation of Greek shipyard facilities, underpinned by partnering proposals with Greek industry to develop local workforces and transfer knowledge and technology within the wider domestic shipbuilding and ship repair supply chain – all undertaken as part of the company’s commitment to Greece.  Over the last three months Babcock has engaged more than 100 suppliers and following recent meetings led by the British Company’s Group Chief Executive, David Lockwood, at both the Skaramangas and Elefsina shipyards, Babcock has continued its previous in–country supplier engagements. In all, one-to-one discussions have been held with more than 20 Greek companies.

These discussions, covering detailed scopes of supply, technical requirements, commercial processes and strategic alignment, are part of a coordinated programme of industry participation with Thales in the UK and MBDA UK, and are at an advanced stage with Supplier Agreements expected to be in place imminently. Senior members of the Babcock team will be at DEFEA, the international defence and security exhibition, to speak with delegates about the company’s global frigate experience that is perfectly aligned to Hellenic Navy’s requirements.”

The firm say in a release that this includes the development of the Arrowhead 140 as the UK Royal Navy’s new Type 31 frigate, more than a decade of design, build and support to the UK’s Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carrier programme, the development of Offshore Patrol Vessels for the Irish Naval Service and a wide range of international projects for small to medium sized vessels.

“Babcock will also outline its through life support expertise including its responsibility for the UK Royal Navy’s Type 23 Class frigates life extension programme and services to the Royal Australian Navy Meko frigates, credentials that will enable a successful Hydra Class upgrade and increased ship availability and readiness for both the Meko and the British interim frigate solution.”

Will Erith, Chief Executive Marine, Babcock said:

“Babcock will bring a wide-ranging programme of technology transfer and focused support options to enable Greek industry to construct the Arrowhead 140 frigate in Greece. Our team are passionate about this project and we have first class support from the UK Government and our partners, alongside real enthusiasm from Greek industry to work with us should we be successful in our bid. DEFEA provides a fantastic platform for us to continue these discussions and to build our burgeoning industrial base for this project. We are looking forward to the exhibition.”

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Trevor Holcroft
Trevor Holcroft
6 days ago

Indeed, best wishes to them.

And then the EU will tell the Greeks what to do…

Nate M
Nate M
6 days ago

also best wishes to England! come on England!!!!!

Rob Young
Rob Young
6 days ago

And hopefully the Greeks will then tell the EU what to do…

Nathan
Nathan
6 days ago
Reply to  Rob Young

I wish I could uptick this.

Mark
Mark
6 days ago

Really? Point out a single time the EU has intervened in a defence procurement program. Get over yourselves.

Sean
Sean
6 days ago
Reply to  Mark

Well given the EU dictates Greek government spending as a price of the bailout then they can intervene in any aspect of Greek defence spending.

Mark
Mark
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Thats not how it works, as evidenced by the fact that the Greeks refused to cut military programs during the period, just meant they had to cut spending or raise taxes elsewhere. Moreover while Greece owes the money, they are out of the program and are funding themselves on the international bond markets. The EU has no powers to intervene.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
5 days ago
Reply to  Mark

Agreed, we need to keep a grip on conspiracy theories here. Babcock late to the show are coming from behind presently and the Damen proposal looks very impressive. The French one by comparison and indeed to the Babcock Arrowhead looks rather weak despite them upgrading it from its initial offer but they do have presently a fair amount of sway with Greece due to their support against Turkey so that is a political factor that may count in this competition. The third frigate in the category A offerings size wise is more akin to Arrowhead than the other two so… Read more »

Dern
Dern
5 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Does the Damen offer include any interim solutions for the Frigate replacements like the Babcock one does? I haven’t been following that aspect closely.

James
James
5 days ago
Reply to  Mark

The EU wont intervene on internal spending no, but it does dictate the Greek budget each year, exactly the same they do with Italy which is not a conspiracy or anything else its very factual. Italy has many issues with the EU being a major economy within it and France/Germany do not want it imposing on them.

The Greek bailout and debt will have numerous conditions attached to it and they are very much in the EU’s pocket for many years to come.

Mark
Mark
5 days ago
Reply to  James

That isn’t how it works, but I’m not going to bother trying to explain it again.

Johan
Johan
4 days ago
Reply to  Mark

An un-elected power holding a country that didn’t vote for those EU leaders or Laws.

And substandard EU-approved products without any form of EU is all about slicing money off.

WHATS DOES IT DELIVER,

CAM
CAM
5 days ago
Reply to  Mark

This how I’ll put it…
Certain MEPs: We need a European military!
The Brexiteer: Some might think it’s a step toward securing the continent of Europe, some think it’s a step to the United States of Europe but I think it’s a step towards demilitarizing the armed forces of member states and making it one large, out of scale, out of control military where many can not even speak the same language.

David Steeper
David Steeper
5 days ago
Reply to  CAM

They’ll be free to speak any language they like so long as it’s French.

Dern
Dern
5 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Bring back Latin.

David Steeper
David Steeper
4 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Veni vidi vici. Yeah that’s my Latin. Don’t ask me what it means. 2 beers and a bag of crisps ?  😀 

Dern
Dern
4 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis.

David Steeper
David Steeper
4 days ago
Reply to  Dern

 🙄  ?

Dern
Dern
4 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Times change and so we change with them.

AlexS
AlexS
4 days ago
Reply to  Dern
AlexS
AlexS
4 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

I arrived, i saw and i won.

Caribbean
Caribbean
4 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Nah – the Latin “V” is pronounced as a “W”, so he actually said that we were “weeny, weedy and weaky”

…… ego accipe me tunica mea,

Andy P
Andy P
6 days ago

Seems like they’re going balls out for the contract, tying in local contractors would go a long way you would think. Good luck to them, it would be good if the UK could export the T31 as well as the 26’s. We’ll see I guess.

dan
dan
6 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

Bigger guns aren’t much use unless you are going to use them to attack a target on land. Hence the move away from large caliber ship guns.

Andy P
Andy P
5 days ago
Reply to  dan

Think you’re quoting the wrong post from me mate but yeah, I agree, the ships that will be riding shotgun on a carrier or potentially a convoy won’t be needing a gun capable of NGS, a forward deployed and relatively cheap platform that might be the ‘token presence’ in an area might be, especially if we’re looking at forward deploying the future MRSS ships about the place.

As ever, other views are available.

Goldilocks
Goldilocks
6 days ago

With all this up gunning that’s been taking place this week… is it possible the Type 31 frigate could have an upgrade??? Like add an 8-cell MK41 VLS and fit it with those cool new hypersonic missiles, and replace the 57mm with a 76mm say?

David Steeper
David Steeper
6 days ago
Reply to  Goldilocks

Navy lookout did an article on Type 31 when it’s armament was announced they covered why they think 57 has the edge over 76.

Challenger
Challenger
6 days ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Yes I believe the superior velocity and rate of fire of the 57mm makes it comparable in lots of ways to the 76mm.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
6 days ago
Reply to  Goldilocks

But then it wouldn’t cost 250M. And that is the whole idea of the T31 project. Affordability, and upgrade as we go along if we need to.

Sean
Sean
6 days ago
Reply to  Goldilocks

The USN is adopting the 57mm over the 76mm, so expect to see more money spent on future upgrades and smart munitions.

AlexS
AlexS
5 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Because BAE bought the American naval gun maker.

Ron5
Ron5
5 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

It would be more pertinent to say that Bae bought Bofors.

AlexS
AlexS
5 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

Not my point. BAE saved naval american gun indutry (5″) as such got preferential treatment by Usn.
BAE literally are responsible now for all 5″ in Burkes.

Ron5
Ron5
4 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Watch out, your tinfoil hat is slipping.

AlexS
AlexS
4 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

you think industrial concern are tinfoil…

Meirion x
Meirion x
5 days ago
Reply to  Goldilocks

Type 31 frigate is just a ‘general purpose frigate’, like the 5 non-ASW T23 frigates that the RN operate. They are equipped with Sea Ceptor anti-air and a ASM, Wildcat as helo. they are Not All singing and dancing,
they serve their purpose.

Last edited 5 days ago by Meirion x
Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
5 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

For us true but for Greek and indeed other foreign sales they may well be required to be those navy’s most potent ships. The type 31 as is would be cheap but inevitably outgunned by Greece’s potential adversaries and as such of little use to them in any instant conflict that as a frontline state could happen to them at any time. They need maximum capability they can afford, even if the arrowhead’s potential for upgunning over time as and when needed that’s enabled by their size is an understandable compromise presently to the UK as more capable ships are… Read more »

Martyn Palmer
Martyn Palmer
5 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Foreign buyers will be able to dictate their own weapons fit out, I would have thought that was obvious

Dern
Dern
5 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

The good news is that the Arrowhead is a flexible design, capable of a much heavier weapons load out than the Inspirations are getting. They can easily fit a Mk41 amidships, plus cannister launched ASMs.So there is no reason for the Greek Arrowheads not to be heavily armed.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
5 days ago
Reply to  Meirion x

The 5 T23 frigates are ASW frigates that don’t have a tail or a Merlin Helo regularly embarked . In every other respect they are identical to the tail equipped ships They can and do Asw just not with the tail.
And before anyone starts with passive detection…. 2087 transmits as well…

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
5 days ago
Reply to  Goldilocks

Well to win the Greek contract it will be an up-gunned version from what I have seen of the opposition, indeed I would suggest one of the reasons it’s not yet in category A of the proposals is because missile and sensor fit is still being played with by Babcock and working on the cost implications. The present UK fit hasn’t got a chance I would suggest of winning that contract so I think we will start to see some of the potential for up gunning the type 31 within this offer quite soon if it stays in the race.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

For reference this is the Damen offering.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/03/damen-details-dutch-frigates-proposal-for-hellenic-navy/
I’m sure Arrowhead 140 could be kitted out in similar fashion if that’s what the Greek Navy wants. It comes down to price as always.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 days ago
Reply to  Goldilocks

No. They are meant to be affordable. Sticking MK41 and every other nice to have means they wont be.

Dern
Dern
5 days ago

Always nice to see you bring some reality to conversation Daniele.

Nick C
Nick C
5 days ago
Reply to  Dern

It’s always nice to play fantasy fleet, and then reality strikes! Does anyone have a sniff as to when the first blocks will start to be assembled at Rosyth? There is a lot of talk of contracts for equipment but I would very much like to see metal being cut.

Dern
Dern
5 days ago
Reply to  Nick C

I think I read something about first steel being cut on HMS Active before the fall? Not sure where I saw that though.
I imangine it’s very contigent on when the frigate hall in Rosyth is done.

Nick C
Nick C
5 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Whenever it is they are going to have to get a wiggle on if the first ship is really going to be in the water by 2023.

Goldilocks
Goldilocks
4 days ago
Reply to  Nick C

The summer of this year

AlexS
AlexS
5 days ago
Reply to  Goldilocks

3D model above by Babcock has a 76mm

Sonik
Sonik
6 days ago

I wonder what the final proposal will look like.

I think Babcock & the UK can make a very competitive offer but there are many factors at play in this competition.

Dern
Dern
5 days ago
Reply to  Sonik

IIRC the graphic Babcock had with the HN submission was for Mk41 VLS, Harpoon, 1x40mm 1xRIM116 launcher and 1x76mm gun, but that almost certainly will be subject to negotiations.

Sonik
Sonik
5 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Yes I think you are right, they are still negotiating. There are quite a few different graphics and suggestions about, but as far as I can tell, nothing has actually been confirmed as yet by ‘official’ sources.

John Camp
John Camp
6 days ago

Its good to hear such news about our defence industries -lets hope they are successful.

Challenger
Challenger
6 days ago

Babcock will I think eventually win some export sales with T31 but selling it to Greece will be tough – partly because they seem to be very close to France and are already purchasing stuff like Rafale from them but also because it’s hard to see them favouring it when we haven’t even started building ours yet vs lots of frigate designs (including FREMM) that are already in service and tried/tested.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
6 days ago
Reply to  Challenger

I’d look at this more positively…. It is based on a known design with good tested bones. It is then given the once over by the RN who are getting a lot of superb kit into service. The fundamental systems fit is very, very flexible. It is a big cheap damage resistant hull that can take all flavours if add-ons. Yes, I do think the RN version could do with a better main gun or VLS for NGS / bunker busting. But that does rather depend on what you are goi g to use it for. The bit I simply… Read more »

Challenger
Challenger
6 days ago

I think it depends on what a potential customer is looking for. If they only want to purchase the design and receive support work from Babcock but build them locally then as you say the base-line hull is a tried and tested entity that should make it an attractive option. But if a would-be buyer wants or needs some or all of their vessels to be built for them then i’d have thought it would make T31 a weaker contender until we can demonstrate that we have turned out ours on time and within budget. On naval gunfire support I… Read more »

Andy P
Andy P
6 days ago

“I’d love to understand that better. I am genuinely puzzled having worked in the area. There will be an answer: I’m sure of that.” I can only assume its down to the cost, the 250M per platform has been the driver to get these ‘extra’ frigates in after the ‘promise’ of 13 to Scottish yards being reduced to 8. Someone who knows more about it than us chimps has maybe been looking to the future and thinking that the 57 mil has more potential than the 76 (and is cheaper) so going with it but yeah, I must admit, I’d… Read more »

Ron5
Ron5
5 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

“Gun” too hard to type?

Andy P
Andy P
5 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

“Gun” too hard to type?

Have I ‘triggered’ you Ron5 ? If you excuse the pun.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
5 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

Think you have him all fired up there

Andy P
Andy P
5 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

 😂 

“Think you have him all fired up there”

Maybe lost sight of things and needs to take stock…..

Ron5
Ron5
4 days ago
Reply to  Andy P

You guys are bang on.

Dern
Dern
5 days ago

Well the way it’ll probably work is that the Inspirations are 2nd line units that will take over low level taskings while City and Daring class ships provide escorts in theatre.
So the Inspirations will not be in theatre to provide NGS to amphibious forces (mind you we are getting rid of the ability to conduct opposed Amphib landings so maybe that’s even more of a reason not to worry about the gun on the Inspirations).

DaveyB
DaveyB
5 days ago
Reply to  Dern

I’d wait before the 5 ships have been delivered to see what happens with them. The MoD were initially sceptical that these ships could be delivered for the available budget. Babcock’s will make sure they do as they are keen on the follow on order (T32). Once the ships are in service, how long before they are looked at for upgrading. As it stands the ships are glorified gunboats wrapped in a frigate sized hull. They will be fine for anti-piracy patrols etc, but not for escorting or being part of a task group. The T26 and T45 will predominantly… Read more »

Dern
Dern
5 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

That’s a big wish list… with a lot of funding requried to achieve it, that won’t be forthcoming, especially if the funding needs to be found to get Type 32, MRSS, Flagship, Argus replacement and others off the ground. Right now I think getting the Interim Surface-to-Surface missile fitted on the Inspirations will be a win, and in the short term, all that really can be hoped for. I’d be absolutely shocked if they looked at upgrading the gun. As for sparing Inspirations for “menial tasks” that’s… pretty much what they are for. Just because we are at war doesn’t… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
4 days ago
Reply to  Dern

I know, fantasy fleet stuff and all that! But once the ships come into service, how long will they remain as they are, before the RN actual admits that they are too lightly armed? Having the interim anti-ship missile added to the T31’s inventory is a no brainer. If it’s the likely canister based NSM, then this will significantly increase the ship’s capability, as it can also be used for land attack. But my thoughts are based on cost. How can you improve the T31 so it can have a complimentary role within a task group. The obvious one is… Read more »

Dern
Dern
4 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

How long? Very long. The Inspirations are made to keep surface warship numbers up at a budget, and that need to keep as low cost as possible won’t go away just because the hulls are in the water. There is a lot the RN has to spend money on before worrying about upgunning them. In terms of undergunned… not really, they’re pretty much in line with other 2nd line frigates in service with partner nations (for example French ships in comparable roles also have about 12 SAM, 2-8 exocet, and a medium calibre gun). edit: ISSM has long been announced… Read more »

Last edited 4 days ago by Dern
Ron5
Ron5
5 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

“The MoD were initially sceptical that these ships could be delivered for the available budget”

That comment makes no sense at all. The MoD/Treasury set the budget not Babcocks.

DaveyB
DaveyB
5 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

If you remember correctly, the first round of proposals was dropped by the MoD, as they said the designs didn’t meet the requirements or the available budget, which is where the comment comes from. What was the difference between the first Arrowhead proposal compared to the second winning one? Are Babcock’s actually making any money on the T31s or are they hoping the following T32s have a more flexible budget? The MoD did make a statement that if the T31s were built on time and to budget then there would be a likely follow on order.

Ron5
Ron5
4 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

I think you’re confusing this with FSS.

DaveyB
DaveyB
4 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

Nope.

Caribbean
Caribbean
4 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

The pause in the program was down to the contractors insisting that the cost of GFX not be included in the £250m per hull budget. HMG will now cover the additional £91m (so approx. £18m per ship) to cover CAMM and various other items

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
5 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

Not sure what you don’t understand there. The mod were not sure they could get everything that they wanted on the ship within the allocated budget. Design, build, weapons, in service for £250m a ship.
This remains to be seen if it is indeed possible. Very much hope so.

Ron5
Ron5
4 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Really? I fear your idea is more guesswork than reality.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
5 days ago
Reply to  Challenger

True but the present front runners are also basically paper designs the Damen one which looks arguably the best offer presently though smallish in particular. The other 2 front runners are highly modified designs which one could claim so is the Arrowhead, of existing vessels.

Ron5
Ron5
5 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

You could ask what the heck does “tried and tested” mean?

Yes, they can float, move places, & fire their guns and missiles. That’s been proven. Everything else is pretty much not.

James H
James H
6 days ago

What does the interim frigate capability mean? A couple of type 23s for a few years?

Sonik
Sonik
5 days ago
Reply to  James H

Yes. That’s actually quite an advantage for Babcock because although T23 is old, most other countries don’t have anything much better to offer.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
5 days ago
Reply to  Sonik

Yes I agree that could be one of their more important cards to play. Some of the weapon fit would be good training for the Greek spec T31 and from what I remember of the present price range of the other contenders as so far released (possibly only the Damen offer so far) there will be good scope to up gun the design while offering a larger vessel overall than at least two of the three Cat A contenders with the accompanying flexibility and future proofing that potentially offers to the Greeks. Babcocks overall capabilities beyond the actual new frigates… Read more »

Sonik
Sonik
5 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Good points, I think though if politics were the issue they would have gone with France since they already dropped the price.

Babcock bid (including Thales/MBDA) is in a good position IMO, because HN already uses Tacticos. Babcock will likely offer CAMM, it’s relatively cheap, and complimentary to either ESSM (which HN already has) or ASTER 30 (which HN are interested in).

Note that HMS Diamond just visited Greece. HN are particularly keen on area AAD, so possibility to create a basic T45, using NS200, Tacticos, CAMM and ASTER 30, will be appealing and probably cost effective Vs other offerings.

Last edited 5 days ago by Sonik
DaveyB
DaveyB
5 days ago
Reply to  Sonik

When Babcock were putting together the Arrowhead concept, they displayed a light anti-air warfare version. Keeping the NS100 type radar but adding a Thales SMART-L volume search radar.The VLS cell count look quite small though.

Arrowhead-140-da-Babcock-9.jpg
Sonik
Sonik
5 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Interesting, thanks. I guess that adding SMART-L would bump up the cost, which seems to be A140s primary advantage.

Dern
Dern
5 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Looks about right compared to the IH’s it’s based on though.
IH’s carry a mix of Mk41, Harpoon Cannister and/or Mk56, typically 8x Harpoon and 32Mk41.
Arrowhead has that mission space which reduces VLS space so, 16mk 41 + 8 Harpoon or 32Mk41 would seem about right.

Ron5
Ron5
5 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

That’s just a picture of the model they commissioned with lego pieces for different weapons & radar fits. Means nothing except if you pay them a lot of money, they’ll try and make them all work together.

DaveyB
DaveyB
5 days ago
Reply to  Ron5

It is/was a proposal of what the Arrowhead design could become if funding was available. Babcock took inspiration from the Danish Iver Huitfeldt and ran with it. Showing that the design could be used for a cheaper air defense ship. It had nothing to do with the RN’s requirement but more to do with its export potential.

Last edited 5 days ago by DaveyB
Ron5
Ron5
4 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Don’t be silly, it was a model built for defence shows with interchangeable bits.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago
Reply to  James H

I don’t think Monmouth or St Albans have had their LIFEX refits yet. If Greece chose Babcock these could perhaps be fitted with say Smart-L radars and the Mk45 gun, Phalanx and Harpoon to standardize on what the Greek navy currently has on their Mekos which also have ESSM. Not sure whether the Mk48 or Mk56 vls you would need for ESSM would fit on a Type 23 though. CAMM would be easier but it only has 1/2 the range of ESSM I think. Maybe a cheaper radar then?

Last edited 5 days ago by Paul.P
Paul T
Paul T
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

If Greece selects the Babcock bid i don’t think you will see such upgrades on the Type 23’s,for an Interim Capability they would take Two 23’s as is – taking into account the costs involved and the Life left in their Hulls putting different Radar Systems and ESSM in them wouldn’t be worth it.

Paul.P
Paul.P
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul T

I understand. My thinking was that Greece would want ships that were in decent condition with a few years of reliable life left in them and had a weapons fit that had a fair amount of overlap with current or planned systems while the RN would want to lose ships that wouldn’t be missed; that were about to go out of service soon anyway or into refit maybe. Greece did I believe at one point express interest in buying US Freedom class. These have the 57mm, Rolling Airframe, 30mm Bushmasters and NSM. The Greeks also wanted Hellfire missiles. So my… Read more »

Sonik
Sonik
2 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

The sale of T23 to Greece, could yet turn out to be mutually beneficial, for both HN and RN, and wider UK & NATO interests. The T23s are by far, the best second hand vessels currently on offer. HN has 10 very old Elli class frigates to replace, and only four new Frigates are proposed. So there is every possibility, that HN may acquire additional T23, as they end RN service. Babcock’s bid, if successful, can facilitate this, as costs for A140 are well under HN proposed budget. It would be complimentary for HN to operate a new AAD optimized… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
2 days ago
Reply to  Sonik

Yes, I was part way along the same thinking but you have expressed it very well. The Ellis mount a 76mm which could be transferred over to the T23s instead of the 57mm if the Greeks prefer. Also Harpoons and Phalanx. The idea definitely has a lot going for it.

Sonik
Sonik
2 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Yes lots of possibilities but Babcock are sensibly keeping quiet about their final spec.

I think you are absolutely right about CAMM though – HN recently added Anti-Saturation capability to the requirement and CAMM has an unbeatable price/performance ratio in that space. Consequently 3 of the 5 remaining bidders are now offering CAMM variants so it will be surprising if HN don’t end up with CAMM one way or another.

Sonik
Sonik
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul T

I agree, about half current HN fleet is from 1970s/1980s and has not recently been updated. Even pre-PGMU T23 are relatively modern by comparison, so HN will probably take them as is, with just a bit of repair work to keep them going. They essentially just want a couple of seaworthy hulls, to make up numbers while the MEKOs are being refurbished. The vessels offered by France are old and in poor condition. The Dutch have offered a couple of Karel Dormans but they are not available until too late. USN have not responded to multiple requests. So T23s seem… Read more »

Richard Wakefield
Richard Wakefield
5 days ago

sounds good but what’s in it for (£) Babcock and the UK ?? Sounds like all give away with an unknown return? I would be concerned if I were a shareholder!

Ron5
Ron5
5 days ago

Royalty fees for design plus £’s for consultancy, system & subsystem orders.

john melling
john melling
5 days ago

Babcock has stiff competition …

Lockheed Martin with the MMSC
Naval Group with the FDI/Belharra
TKMS with the MEKO A200NG (or MEKO A300)
Babcock with the Type 31/Arrowhead
Navantia (allegedly with the F-110)
Fincantieri (allegedly with the FREMM)

Ron5
Ron5
5 days ago
Reply to  john melling

Ah but the UK’s national shipbuilding strategy says they will be successful. Sir John Parker guarantees it.

AlexS
AlexS
4 days ago
Reply to  john melling

FREMM for Greece is said to be
1×127
2×76
24 Aster 30
32 CAMM ER
8 Exocet
4 Milas
1xRAM
1 Helicopter instead of 2 of Italian FREMM(can get 1 Merlin and 1 NH-90)
Kronos aesa radar.

I suppose the 76 are side mounted.

Last edited 4 days ago by AlexS
Paul T
Paul T
3 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Just seen the picture of the possible FREMM on the Naval News site , it looks a very impressive Weapons Fit for a Frigate.more like a Destroyer in all but name. It looks like 3 x 76mm, 2 amidships and 1 on top of the Hangar.

AlexS
AlexS
3 days ago
Reply to  Paul T

I think that was the configuration offer for Brasil in 2010.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
5 days ago

The picture at the start has a different weapons fit to the uk version. Is that what is being proposed to Greece? Or just a nice picture. It has a Seahawk on the back.

AlexS
AlexS
5 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

76mm in bow with a RAM launcher instead of 40mm. I believe this the Greek proposal.

AlexS
AlexS
5 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

It has a mediocre radar, like T31 and T26, I doubt Greeks will accept this.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
4 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Hi Alex, I believe that is a 127mm Oto Melera mount, not a 76mm.

Ron5
Ron5
4 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

No its not the 127mm gun.

AlexS
AlexS
4 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

It has the 76 sovraponte look Quentin D63

Goldilocks
Goldilocks
4 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

It is the export version of the Type 31 frigate, customers can change the weapons/rader fit as they wish