The total number of warships to be built in Scottish shipyards post-referendum up to 2035 now stands at 24, more than the 13 ‘promised’ by politicians.
In addition to the now built 5 Offshore Patrol Vessels, there are plans for 8 Type 26 Frigates, 5 Type 31 Frigates, 5 Type 32 Frigates and 1 Ukrainian warship to be built in Scotland.
This article is a fact checking article, if you believe we’ve made an error you can submit a correction in line with our correction policy.
Despite the above, as you read this there are 13 warships in build or being procured at Scottish shipyards. However, there are thousands of real people on social media that would promise you that no ships are being built – but why? Well, I try to answer that here.
Jonathan Chartier, a defence commentator, also took a detailed look at this phenomenon.
Anyway, for an idea of what’s to be built where, click the below table.
Currently, 13 of the above 24 ships have been built or are in build, with the rest following. In fact, there was recently confirmation of the next batch of Type 26 Frigates being budgeted for and long lead items procured for.
Plans to order next batch of frigates on the Clyde confirmed
A Ukrainian warship?
Ukraine previously signed a memorandum with the UK to secure £1.25 billion in funding to build new military vessels for the Ukrainian Navy, the first ship will be constructed in the UK and the remaining 7 vessels will be built in Ukraine.
Type 32?
The new Type 32 Frigate will be built in addition to the Type 26 and Type 31 Frigates in the hopes of bringing the escort fleet up to 24 vessels from its current 19.
The Defence Secretary previously confirmed that Rosyth will be building more vessels than previously planned, with the Type 32 Frigate going into built at the yard after the Type 31 Frigate build finishes.
Ben Wallace, the Defence Secretary, recently stated that Rosyth would be building Tytpe 32 Frigates in addition to Type 31 Frigates.
“We are committed to building the Type 26 in the United Kingdom; it is under construction on the Clyde. In Rosyth, work is ongoing to build the facility needed to build the Type 31s and the subsequent Type 32s. He also knows that I recently recategorised the future Fleet Solid Support ship as a warship. I intend to make sure that, if not entirely, there is a considerable degree of UK build in that process, subject to tender. I have to be cautious about the contract, because the competition is to begin soon—very soon.”
According to the recently released ‘Defence Command Paper’, the Type 32 frigates will be designed to protect territorial waters, to provide persistent presence overseas and to support Littoral Response Groups.
The first mention of a new Type 32 frigate came in the Prime Minister’s 19 November statement. He said: “We are going to develop the next generation of warships, including multi-role research vessels and Type 32 frigates.”
The Defence Command Paper, titled ‘Defence in a Competitive Age’, describes the planned programme:
“Type 32 frigates, designed to protect territorial waters, provide persistent presence overseas and support our Littoral Response Groups.”
You can read more by clicking below.
Well, if all is so good why am I writing this? Because despite this information being easily verifiable and heavily reported, people seem unaware of it. A good example would be the comments under any shipbuilding article we publish. Even in response to articles detailing which ship will be built where, when the contract was signed, what type it is etc we’ll still get comments claiming that no shipbuilding is being done for the Royal Navy in Scotland, so here we are.
A healthy prospect for the UK’s shipbuilding. Regardless of SNP’s dismissal as English business, the programme is very significant, a point that won’t be lost with the employees at both Scottish factories. Other UK sites may be under consideration if this programme was to increase in size?
A very healthy order book. Good for Scotland. Must be sensible to spread some building to other RUK yards. May be useful to add what repair/upgrade/refitting is done at RUK yards.
I know all our subs are buit at Barrow, England.
Total reliance on one country to assemble warships does raise the question about logistics? I’m happy for the Scotish yards though, an honorable trade.
All your eggs in just 1 or 2 baskets is indeed deeply flawed. I’m also happy for the Scots yards. A volley of missiles could take out shipbuilding on the Clyde & Rosyth, Sub building at Barrow, Faslane base facilities, F-35 force all at Mareham etc, even before things(God forbid) got nuclear. Defences can be evaded by crafty plans(war is full of those), not that we seem to have much to protect any of these installations. Even a brief, intemporate, hot war, nipped in the bud before the planet gets nuked, could see all our RN ship & sub building programs & our F35s KO’d for some considerable time in the opening moves.
The line often given that we’d see conflict coming well ahead & have time to prepare is head-in-the-sand spin. Here we are close to what could be the slide into a European war, quite possibly war in the far east, with HM armed forces atrociously small,run down, capabilities gapped & many major projects vastly delayed & over budget. Our weakness has led us here. We have no cunning plan, just an ongoing commitment to speak up our armed forces while bungling anything substantial.
I hear what you are saying but, one has to understand that such a wipeout is unlikely due to early warning systems, of which, there are many. Retaliation operations would also have a significant impact on Russia’s ability to hit so many targets simultaneously. Most RN vessels at sea would immediately be in war mode and their capabilities could be devastating. There would be little point in hitting warship construction especially if it were to be a short conflict. As for the RAF, F35B’s can land and operate more flexibly than Typhoon even if Marham is hit. Most planes will be dispatched to many airfields, hence the recent heavy-lift trials at major civil airports. Of cause, any major conflict with Russia could result in huge material loss, but a concerted (none nuclear) response by NATO would leave Russia decimated.
Hear you Frank, which I wish they’d get a move on with Sky Sabre and order (maybe) some more for RN/RAF/Army bases and other important sites and stop being so casual about SAM coverage for the UK. Has there been any exploration of Aster stocks being used both by RN and with land based modules/truck launch/radar systems? Is CAMM-ER still coming or has that disappeared off the radar so to speak. Amyone here know?
There is no amount of dispersal for ship building that could keep it going in said scenario. If strikes on the U.K. mainland are coming they will be vast and hit every single target of interest. If a missile strike was planned by a state on the U.K you can be sure they will make sure they have enough missiles to take out everything that matters. Gone are the days of world war 2 type situation of building war items while bombs miss there targets by miles. A strike would be precise and devastating. if it’s goal is to destroy the U.K. industrial capacity all targets of interest would be hit in a very small timeframe.
The amount of anti air missiles, C-RAM, to attempt to kill most incoming missiles would be in the thousands.
This is my view on the matter. Not that I’m saying any country shouldn’t try. Having the basics will be most important in that situation. Ability to resupply etc. Big tech items that take years to build and plan will not be getting started if the U.K island was under attack.
All your eggs in one basket Frank ? I seem to remember the First Nuclear reactor in the UK where ? furthest point away from London at Dounreay, Now I wonder where can we refit our Nuclear Submarines at the Time? oh yes Rosyth, furthest dockyard away from London, Now I wonder where we can store the Missiles for the Submarines? oh yes, silly me its at Coulport a long way from London, Before we had our bombers where could we let our American allies berth their Nuclear Subs Now let me think….of course the Holy Loch on the River Clyde in Scotland also quite a distance from London, Not forgetting the active base for our bombers nowadays I wonder where that is ? oh yes its Faslane on the west coast of Scotland…again quite distance from London. Quite funny really writing this with a bit of tongue in cheek but absolutely true. And last but not least where are we building the Royal Navy’s present Fleet ? yes Rosyth and on the Clyde at Glasgow.
I wouldn’t worry about to many eggs in the same basket Frank as its never been thought about in the past. Why worry about it today? its mainly about technical shipbuilding expertise in Scotland that has been built up over many years.
That one country is the United Kingdom. Subs are built in England and if it’s value of contracts comparison England is ahead. I don’t see it as Scotland versus England. It benefits the U.K. if the U.K. is doing well no part of it should want to break away.
It’s great news for the U.K. as a whole. The U.K. is really getting new ships at a faster rate than in past 20 years.
Great comment, Monkey Spanker – there are no Kingdoms of England or Scotland. These old kingdoms voluntarily extinguished themselves in 1707 when forming the Kingdom of Great Britain (now the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).
We have now been one country for 315 years! 😉
I wonder how the Scottish shipbuilding workers feel about all of the negativity around the RN ship building in Scotland?
If I was one of them I’d be pretty disenchanted with the whole sorry saga and feeling rather overlooked, dispite a significant contribution to the Scottish economy.
It all sounds a bit like the anti-vaccine or Covid is a hoax mentality. I don’t like it, so I won’t believe it. There are times when find it very hard to understand how humans ever got this far!
Cheers CR
Scotland has a long tradition of shipbuilding, and so has the North East, yes good for the Scottish economy but also good for the UK as a whole. Much of the equipment and engines are sourced and ordered through out the UK. The ships are merely assembled in Scottish ship yards using a diverse skilled workforce also through out the UK.
The same workforce would be happy to move to English yards if the orders on the Clyde dried up. Ship building on Tyneside could be easily expanded to previous levels.
As a species Homo sapiens sapiens, is not as wise as we like to portray ourselves. We are nothing more a bunch of gregarious yet highly aggressive, territorial primates. Slightly smarter apes with over inflated egos.
Anyone fancy a banana?
Love a bannana but human folly is definitely on the rise.
It’s worse than that, most of use seem to have come to the conclusion that biology no longer matters and we have evolved beyond such tawdry concepts as biological imperatives and biology is somewhere below human cultural concepts such as a a Friday night out on the town….It’s seems such things are for the animals and not us.
Its all lovely until something like covid or food and water security comes and bits you on the arse and you realise we die like any other animal.
Scottish Separatists really couldn’t give a damn about the workers who would be affected. In their heads, the industry and its workers would be an acceptable sacrifice to secure independence.
They are a small minority though. Even if people vote SNP it doesn’t mean they are all hardcore or even a tiny bit independence supporters. The view that Independence is required no matter the consequences is a view not shared by many.
Any population has a range of views from one extreme to the other. Some argue London should be a city state or for welsh independence and they are entitled to their view but it is just that. Their opinion.
Wales understands the value of the union, very few want independence. Scottish nationalism is on the rise despite the bonkers SNP party.
As a fellow Welshman I can’t agree more.
Although a worrying 33% of the Welsh population think independence would be a good thing… I have several aquaintances who think along these lines and when I point out the massive income shortfall their only response is to tax the rich more… It’s time to start teaching basic economics in school again.
Hi Taffybadger ….. some perspective from Glasgow.
There is no evidence that Scottish nationalism is on the rise. The majority of voters in Scotland consistently vote in Holyrood and Westminster elections for pro-UK parties.
Independence Majority in Holyrood.
Yes – but only because the majority Pro-UK vote is split between the three main opposition parties – Labour, Conservative and Lib-Dems. It happens every election, including Holyrood 2021, allowing the SNP to gain power with a minority of the popular vote.
Not if you include the greens and alba who both support indepenence. Bit when it comes to Independence at least 25% of the labour vote supports Independence, and even some libs and tories. We are winning the next one.
Hi David, In terms of Constituency vote (or 1st vote) in Holyrood 2021, the Greens only gained 30, 000 votes, and Alba didn’t even stand in the constituencies.
In terms of another Referendum, it’s not Boris Johnson blocking ardent secessionists – but the Scottish electorate.
Exactly. Every part of any country has different views and from Scottish people Ive spoken to they are now different.
Probably one of the independence supporters main goals is to keep people being negative about said country and the constant Scotland bashing plays right into there hands.
I don’t think the unions are too happy about it either.
Worker security is increased by investment in the site – happening with Babcock and planned by BAE.
Order book is there so nice stable well paid jobs/workforce to protect.
Really honestly you could ask for much more for a workforce in terms of having a lot of the Parker vision actually implemented.
As I’ve said to George previously one thing that’s not understood by those close to ship building is that for the average person outside of Glasgow or Rosyth, ship building is a non subject, it’s just not spoken about to the point where many Scots probably don’t realise that the only yards building surface combatants in the UK are based on the Clyde and Forth.
What happens if Scotland voted for independence during this lengthy period? I am sure that the National Shipbuilding Strategy forbids naval vessels to be built by a foreign country.
There would be a gradual move south I’m sure though I’m also sure there would be some bargaining and trade off no doubt from both sides prior/during this process to the benefit of both to reduce costs and job losses which itself will likely extend some building in Scotland beyond any leaving the UK date to allow both sides to better plan. There is also questions about ‘Ferranti’ there too which will have to be considered though perhaps less black and white than naval ship building so may not be affected. And what about UK Govt sponsored vertical launch efforts there are a lot of things no doubt the Govt would not ideally want to be in an Independent Scotland especially if it has military implications but will perhaps have to compromise on in the end so as not to create more downside than up. So could get a little muddy.
It does indeed…
The yards that were overlooked and / or closed south of what would be an international border, would have to take up the work…
Doubtless with the enthusiastic support of the local populations and an influx of highly skilled, but unemployed Scottish workers….
Thanks Darren, very hard to re-open closed or deteriorating shipyards in England that would be capable of building complex naval vessels.
True…
But worst case scenario, it may become a necessity…
I disagree that it would be worse case scenario. More prudent planning and future proofing.
Worst case scenario, as in, if they succeed in breaking the Union… This would be the worst case…
Don’t get me wrong Darren, I believe we are stronger united and feel any split is a betrayal by both sides. However, I think independence is inevitable at this stage and a very acrimonious affair it will be.
If HM Gov do not have a contingency plan already written down, I’ll eat my ToS. That’s a Tam O’shanter for the non-military readers.
If/when it happens, reclaiming naval shipbuilding would be a long term benefit for England and Northern Ireland. Huge loss for Scotland and the skilled workforce. There would be an exodus.
You are not wrong George, and save the ToS for when we all get called up in ”Dads Army 2.0”….
We are a stronger nation, but the rumblings are starting to sound in the south too…
As I commented on another thread I would surprised is we don’t see a big build hall at Belfast as well.
It makes sense as UK needs more capacity to build Solid Support ships as well as replace Bays and Albions.
Yes, there is not much workforce in Belfast there but there are signs of regenerating one. Yes, it will take a long time so there is a need to get started at some point.
That some point may be doing limited local block fab with someone else doing more of the heavy lifting.
In this respect it is a shame that the block fab facilities elsewhere were shuttered. Although counter to that there is the ability to build new state-of-the-art rather than muddle along with old hat.
Difficult but by no means impossible. Many of the sites still exist on Tyneside, Wearside and Teesside. Not forgetting the old submarine base at Blyth and Battleship Wharf. Flattened, cleared and ready for new construction sheds to be erected. Dry docks are still there too. The Able dry dock on Teesside could accommodate carriers if required. It could accommodate a floating dock big enough to hold our carriers!
Remember, HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious were built on Tyneside by people of my generation still (only just) of working age. Trained workers from centres of excellence seeking promotion, would flock to any new facility.
Certainly not impossible given the right kickstart with guaranteed orders.
I visited Chatham historical dockyard 2 years ago and was amazed that they built SSKs (‘O’ boats) there until some time in the 1960s. They built an expensive plant for refuelling nuclear subs but then some idiot in the Government closed the whole working site down.
Bring it to the North East of England. Many many people here who would be happy to have the work and restore industries lost from the area.
Hell, base Trident here as well for all I care, we will happily take on support contracts and supply whatever else is needed.
I’d be more inclined to base our new shorter range conventional submarines there, eg amongst other things windfarm infrastructure for the protection of 😎.
He said, optimistically.
Did I miss something but where are the deep water facilities that are inland and away from the coast in the NE of England? There’s no where in the UK as secure as Faslane to base submarines.
Absolutely, PragmaticScot – the North Sea is somewhat shallow!
Faslane/Firth of Clyde allows secure, deep-water access to the North Atlantic.
The Westminster government buy fighters, transport aircraft, maritime patrol
aircraft, helicopters, armoured vehicles, trucks and more from abroad. Ships are not immune from being sourced abroad too.
It is delusional to think ships are somehow I
mmune from being purchased from elsewhere.
You are very rude to call me delusional.
From the foreword to the National Shipbuilding Strategy document by the SofS for Defence, Michael Fallon, 2017- “We will continue to build Royal Navy warships only in the UK…”
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/643873/NationalShipbuildingStrategy_lowres.pdf
The future UK clearly would not include an independent Scotland.
Hi Graham
There are lots of things to worry about today: Ukraine, China, climate-change, global pandemics – but one of the least to be concerned about is Scotland leaving the UK. Indeed one may argue that because of the current protocol with the EU – Northern Ireland is actually closer to leaving than Scotland!
Just to recap, there has already been a decisive historic referendum result in 2014. Since then, the majority of voters in Scotland have consistently voted for Pro-UK parties in Holyrood and Westminster elections.
Rest assured: the shipyards on the Clyde and the Forth are secure long-term strategic sites for frigate and destroyer work.
Will the UK be building 2 off T31 in addition to the 8 ship for Ukraine Navy as part of the military vessel contract? Sure I saw an article that included this in addition to upgrading their ship building capabilities and Babcock proving design services?
The U.K. are only building 1 ship out of the 8 for Ukraine. The rest are going to be built in the Ukraine with Babcock assistance to get the ship yards back up and running. The U.K. are providing the funding for the whole program in the form of a loan. I don’t know the full details of the loan but it’s terms will be good. Hopefully it gets repaid and not in rubles
I came across a tweet the other day by a Scottish bloke who stated that the british (yes thats the noun he used) had destroyed the Scottish ship building industry by redirecting all naval contracts down south. I pointed out that since the Amazon class ships, the vast majority of naval ships for the Royal Ravy have been actually built in Scotland. He replied that those ships had been built by BAE and thus were English built rather than Scottish built. When I stated that the ships are getting built on the Cylde he blocked me.
Was he from east of Kiev?
St Petersburg, 🕵
East of reality.
Every country has there I’ll informed half wits. They do not speak for the majority.
It’s an issue with the internet now is anyone can say anything where as before to get published you would have to be seen as credible.
Once newspapers would receive lots of letters from cranks. One editor claimed the defining sign of what was coming was green ink on blue lined note paper.
Trouble is ours run the country. Can’t trust what BJ says nor his judgement.
Farouk….
To quote a young Swedish lady…
“how dare you… How dare you ruin his sense of moral superiority by telling the truth… how dare you…”
Darren does that young Swedish Lady (teenager) name begin with G and end with mass Extinction 😎 and Scots with suntans?
Aye
She’s putting the Dampners on Scotland having a warm summer
The majority of diehard Scottish nationalist are not very bright and very much do not like home truths . Superior as it sounds, an alarming number of my fellow Scot’s should not be allowed outside unaccompanied let alone be allowed near a ballot paper.
Well thanks too Covid panic buying ballot papers were required
There are none so deaf as they that will not hear. Not sure whether that comes from the bible or Shakespeare but the sentiment is correct.
What annoys me is that every time that there is a post about shipbuilding we rapidly descend into name calling about Scottish separatists. What is much more important here is that there is now a good forward load of new ships coming on for the RN, but they are coming quite slowly. As has been said ad infinitum on this and many other forums this is the fault of the Treasury funding the need at a glacial rate.
What would be much more effective, rather than the constant whinging on about fantasy fleets and equipment fits, would be for every poster here to start lobbying their MP about the scandalous state of the RN roster of ships, starting with the fact that by the time either Glasgow or Venturer is accepted into service there will be a gap of 25 years since St Albans was delivered. In that period only the Type 45’s have entered service.
If we are serious about power projection and being “global Britain” somebody has got to grip not only the RN equipment programmes but also those of the Army and the RAF. It is worth pointing out that the Defence Committee in Parliament recently published a report calling for a bigger navy. Most if not all of those members were in Parliament in 2010 and acquiesced in the emasculation of the armed forces which went on under the guise of a review. Unfortunately shame is not an emotion one can grant to any politician in this country, whichever party they espouse.
I agree. I e-mailed my MP today about the T26 B2 contract. I doubt it will help, but we have to try.
The more people who shout, the louder the noise. With what is going on in Ukraine at present even the most cloth eared MP must have a greater awareness of the need for Defence.
Did you include a crayon drawing of a ship ? Because otherwise they probably wouldn’t understand what you were talking about.
I’d even throw in the fridge magnet if I thought it would help.
😁
Your MP may think your Shakespeare is about Face it’s 2B or not 2B not B2 their Al on a different wavelength too us mere mortals Jon
Hi Farouk, I read a Twitter feed, I think for UKDJ, stated number of ships being built in Scotland, the comments to it where amazing, some people denying any ships were being built in Scotland, then some people from this planet, pointing out that they walk past the BAE Clyde yard each day and sees ships being built, another was part of the team building the ship, yet even after that people where denying any ships where being built in Scotland. The level of stubborn delusion of some people is just amazing.
Hi GMD, A few Scottish nationalists have even cried “betrayal” on Twitter because instead of building 13 T26s (as planned at the time of the 2014 referendum) – Scottish yards have built/or are building 18 warships instead! (8 x T26, 5 x T31, 5 x River OPV).
You couldn’t make it up!
George give up. There is no point arguing with anyone who isn’t listening, won’t look, won’t see and is unable to deal with facts.
George please DO NOT give up
voices of reason are few and far between and the UKDJ is certainly a voice of reason
George should stop reasoning with people who cannot read or comprehend; something I should do myself.
There is a difference between reasoning and arguing and doing what George has done here which is simply to state the bare checkable facts with links to sources.
This way journos can get real hard info rather than listen to twitter.
Take cover. Anti Scottish insults will coming in thick and fast shortly.
Perhaps an article about how many ships are refitted/upgraded and based in England would be a nice addition. Hopefully help balance out some people’s view that all ship work is done in Scotland.
Isn’t it ironic that many Scots don’t believe they’re building any ships and many English believe the Scots are the only ones building ships ? No not ironic welcome to the world of social media where everyone is an expert on everything.
Or as shown by Babcock and BAE that the supply chain is mostly in England, people don’t want to understand how procurement works and think every part of the ship is fabricated in the yards.
Bunfight incoming:
https://twitter.com/davieclegg/status/1493855651856064514
Babcock boss warns Rosyth yard could move to England if Scots vote Yes…
(IMO a smaller issue now than this makes it sound.)
BAES said a while ago that they’d return shipbuilding to Portsmouth in the event of independence, not surprised Babcock have the same plan
Whilst I think we are about a decade away from another referendum I think that in the meantime the UK Government need to spell out the exact terms so that there will be no surprises.
Type-32 is not yet confirmed. I think it shall better NOT be included in the list as “5 will be there”. If this article is for fact checking, “up to five” is just up-to-five, which differs a lot from “five”. Is’nt it?
We remember in the case of T31, it was clearly “five”, not “up to”. So it differs.
Hi Mr Tokyo
I still think Type 32 was Boris getting confused with Type31….we should stick to 1 or 2 hulls , why go to the effort to design something new for 5 ships then start over again
Ian
Yes, I agree.
T31 B2 morphed into T32 due to a Borisism.
Nobody naval that I know had heard of T32 until the Borisism came out.
Then it gave the opportunity to differentiate T32 from T31 – personally I will it will be a more fully kitted T31.
IRL more T31 give a quick and cheap way of increasing the fleet size.
A lot of politicians Hunt and Osbourne, come to mind, agreed that frigate numbers were far too low.
Osborne? Really? He did more to reduce UK military spending over the last quarter century than anyone else. Understand how out of touch he was. I don’t like Hunt, but on this issue he shouldn’t be spoken of in the same breath.
I agree Osbourne was a defence disaster.
But he did say we needed more frigates. That was his rationale for cutting POW.
After the shenanigan’s over Ukraine it has shown that the “ assumptions” made in the recent defence review are a joke and it needs to be revisited . 2% spending is not enough !!
I may be cynical but I think he wanted to cut PoW because it wasn’t his idea to build it.
Osbourne & Cameron’s job was to protect the wealthy elite. Job done. People fell for all the spin. The things that mattered to most people were slashed mercilessly beyond necessity. Can’t stand either.
A pair of Venator 110s would be cheaper than an additional T26. With towed array in the stern and a T31 gun compliment the pair could take over the TAP and FRE roles. Now you’ve freed up a T26 for East of Suez for example. Others would know better but just a thought.
I think they’ll stick to the 31 hull but you may be right on the towed array.
Interesting. Just to play devil’s advocate, Venator 110 is around 4,000 tons while T31 over 5,500. I’d imagine it would be quieter to start with and cheaper to add AIP and/or other acoustic measures. Would you really need both RAS positions for TAP/FRE? Could that extend a boat bay into something else? Sweden doesn’t have a problem designing and building a 3 boat sub class and this is British designed. I don’t think they should close the door just yet on a 7/3 mix or something like that.
The safe option would be for 32 to be a batch 2 31 but nothing has been confirmed so i’m speculating. Either of us could be right or completely wrong and that’s just on the hull ! We’ll see what impact the current shenanigans in Ukraine have on the plans.
Hopefully we have plans and infrastructure in place if Scotland leaves. We should have the appropriate leverage to ensure our military presence in Scotland indefinately, but we have to be prepared for irrationality. I’d be sad to see Scotland leave, but if it does, ensuring it doesnt affect our military situation is a priority.
(tldr on below: we’ve adopted a USN force structure but dont have the mass or high end csgcapability to make it worth it; we dont need many more escourts if our specialised escourt T45s and some of the T26s are used for that role but newer ships need to be armed with 1v1, not s[ecialist group vs group, encounters in mind, since we are a blue water nab=vy with global interests but low mass and spread thin).
On another point, I worry about the role the T32 is proposed as playing. Our naval doctrine seems to be modelled on the USN: escourts for defence, subs and carriers for attack. But we dont have the kind of mass needed. Carrier strike is only ever going to be an operationally costly but useful posture we can adopt; otherwise using the carriers for humanitarian, logistics, and motherships in nato joint operations. all perfectly useful things for them to do. We arent a carrier navy; theres no point unless you can put out several high end (f35c) csgs at once, and have the capacity to risk them. Therefore we can’t follow the USN’s force structure. America needs a carrier navy to project credible, sustained force in the pacific against a peer adversary. Only carrier based airpower can do this, and everything depends on protecting this capability, so seeing other ships as “escourts” makes sense; the USN is in the CSG posture all the time, and has the mass to work in such a huge group. We’re not in that game.
Unlike the US, we arent oceans away from threats, and we cant rely on having multiple ships with synergistic capabilities when encountering threats. We also cant eat losses. So our surface cant be conceptualised as an “escourt” fleet; they need to be able to deal with stand alone encounters. The 8 T26s seem just enough (though the low build rate gives me pause) to cover the lone asw and nato/RN carrier group asw roles at a very high end. The T45s are amazing AAW platforms but are too noisy for asw, unreliable, offensively limited, whilst being considerably expensive. In patrol and standoff situations where they’re vulnerable and costly, for no operational benefit over a lower end ship for its mission. As/if the RN gets to a healthier size, these should be used predominently as pure AAW platforms in a csg. thats what they’re specced for. The submarines are by all accounts great, but are too small in numbers to follow the USN doctrine of subs and carriers being the teeth of the navy. The T31s give us 5 hulls for a billion quid. I’ll take that and run.
This leaves the T32s. The T31s are unequipped for asw and high end escourt duties. They’re low to mid end frigates who can just be frigates and do frigate stuff. thats great, but it means the gap in the RN the T32 needs to cover is to provide credible capability in aaw (for itself at least), asw, and anti ship warfare, so as to go to dangerous places alone. The cheap hull of the T31 needs to be improved for asw, it needs credible self defence aaw capabilities and credible anti ship capabilities. Everything else in the RN is a specialist (T26 seems to have global combat ability but theres only 8 and they have specialist duties), so we need ships that can go into dangerous potential flashpoints and be a credible signal. The RN stretches itself out so thin that 1v1 encounters are highly plasuible (since its not like many other nations have massive high end surface fleets either), but we’re not currently equiped for 1v1 encoutners, we have highly specialised ships with limited offensive capability as if they will be primarily escourt ships, not primarily on the lone patrol missions the RN spends most of its time in.
WARSAW, Poland — The Polish Ministry of National Defence has shortlisted two offers for the Miecznik (Swordfish) frigate acquisition program, submitted by UK Babcock International with its Arrowhead 140 vessel, and German Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems’ Meko-A300 warship.(…)
The latest announcement indicates that Warsaw has discarded the bid submitted by Spanish Navantia which offered its F-100 frigate.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/02/15/poland-shortlists-babcock-thyssenkrupp-for-2-billion-frigate-program/
Would like the RN get 4 of these Swordfish type T31s. Looks like they have a good weapon VLS/RAM/AShM mix. Wonder if the T32s will a bit more like this or more light weight?
Okay I think what we all need is a good old fashioned nose to nose vein bulging on the forehead row. So here goes. The IISS has just released figures showing the UK has overtaken India to have the 3rd largest Defence budget in the world. Does anyone have any thoughts on the subject ?
Is it with PPP ? i bet not. So not much relevance.
No just with Dollars and Cents.
If it is not done with PPP there is no way to explain what Russia can get with their money…from SSBN, to satellites etc.
Sorry: PPP= purchasing power parity.
Yeah I know and it makes a difference with things like pay, housing. pensions etc which in the case of the UK is about half the defence budget so it matters. My point is our Defence Budget is not small it’s larger than everyone but the USA and China so to everyone who cares about our armed forces maybe the problem isn’t so much lack of money but how that money is spent. If we look at what each of our services provides with the money we give them maybe we should be asking them serious questions and expecting serious answers.
Just keep some perspective and remember that for every Ajax and T45 intercooler there is a Zumwalt Class destroyer and Littoral Combat Ship.
Oh yeah no-one has a monopoly on screwups. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t expect better.
Absolutely. As a professor once said to me, “What is the point of mediocrity?”
I think we need another two production lines at least.
One for small ships ( we will need something to replace All the survey vessels, rivers and something to cart around all the autonomy kit) So I could see a yard for 1000 to 2000 ton basic warships, a sort of rivers 3 that covers all the low end tasking using autonomous small vessels.
one for very very large ships ( over 15,000 Tons) are we are going to need a fair number of these
Having seen the updated ship building plan it doesn’t look like we’re interested in ensuring we have skills long term especially for the smaller vessels like MCMV or OPVs. Emphasis could be placed on a yard like Appledore to have a slow and steady production cadence of smaller RN as well as Border Force vessels, add in potential exports and we’d have a more diverse production and support structure.
More good news!
“UK engineering firm Babcock International Group has agreed to buy out its partner in the Australian Naval Ship Management (NSM) joint venture, expanding its support for the Royal Australian Navy, Babcock announced on 15 February.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/industry-headlines/latest/babcock-to-take-over-australian-naval-sustainment-firm