As I observed and listened to the various parties share their policies and make their arguments during the general election campaign, I found myself increasingly concerned about one party in particular: Reform UK.

Their political rhetoric and positions on defence and international affairs go far beyond simple errors of judgment or forgivable confusion. They are, without a doubt, dangerous.

I have seen and heard enough to conclude that Reform UK is utterly unfit to wield any influence over British politics, especially in the realms of defence and international affairs.

The party’s alarming rhetoric, coupled with the questionable credentials and views of its candidates, underscores a deep-seated irresponsibility and a dangerously misguided worldview. Recent revelations about Reform UK candidates’ statements and the party leader’s viewpoints offer compelling evidence of their unsuitability for political office.


This article is the opinion of the author and not necessarily that of the UK Defence Journal. If you would like to submit your own article on this topic or any other, please see our submission guidelines.


One particularly disturbing incident involves Jack Aaron, a Reform UK candidate attempting to unseat Defence Secretary Grant Shapps in Welwyn Hatfield. According to The Independent, Aaron described Adolf Hitler as “brilliant” at inspiring people into action. This bizarre and troubling justification underscores a profound lack of judgement and an alarming willingness to downplay the horrific actions of one of history’s most notorious tyrants. Such views are not only out of step with the values of decency and human rights but also demonstrate a perilous inclination to overlook brutal authoritarianism, and a sheer ignorance of democratic principles.

The problem isn’t confined to Aaron alone. Samantha Goggin, another Reform UK candidate, has shown a shocking ignorance of historical events and a disturbing tendency to distort facts for political gain. At a hustings event in Surrey Heath, Goggin suggested that Margaret Thatcher’s Conservative government, rather than Argentine dictator General Galtieri, was to blame for the Falklands War. This revisionist history not only disrespects the sacrifices of British servicemen but also undermines the reality of Argentine aggression that precipitated the conflict. Furthermore, her confused and misleading statements about British involvement in Afghanistan and support for Ukraine betray a fundamental lack of understanding of international affairs, making her unfit for any role in commenting on, let alone shaping, UK defence policy.

The rot in Reform UK’s approach to international affairs is evident at the highest levels of the party. Nigel Farage, the party leader, has openly blamed NATO and the West for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. In an interview with the BBC’s Nick Robinson, Farage argued that NATO’s expansion gave Putin a pretext for war, effectively placing the blame for Russian aggression on Western democracies. This stance is not only factually inaccurate but also dangerously appeasing towards an aggressive autocrat responsible for an unprovoked and brutal invasion. Farage’s position raises serious questions about his allegiance to Western democratic values and his fitness to lead a political party in the UK.

Farage’s position is also at odds with his own party’s policy. Any party wanting to increase defence spending to 3% would be aware that much of the spending will directly contribute towards NATO defence. It makes no sense whatsoever for the leader of such a party to want to spend more on NATO activities while also blaming NATO for provoking Russia’s aggression. This clearly indicates that Reform UK’s defence policies are nonsensical. They either don’t understand even the basics of defence and international cooperation, or they are using the 3% policy to entice and entrap genuine defence voters. Given the evidence, I believe it is a combination of both.

Reform UK’s rhetoric and actions are not merely misguided; they are a clear and present danger to the integrity and security of British political discourse and policy. By espousing views that excuse and even endorse authoritarian leaders, downplay historical atrocities, and spread misinformation about critical international conflicts, Reform UK candidates and leaders have shown they lack the judgement, knowledge, and moral compass required for public office.

The British electorate must recognise the peril that Reform UK represents. The party’s influence on defence and international affairs would not only be detrimental but outright dangerous, aligning the UK with the worst elements of global politics rather than standing firm for democracy, human rights, and international law.

In a time of global uncertainty and rising authoritarianism, Britain needs leaders who are principled, informed, and resolute in their commitment to democratic values. Reform UK, by its own actions and statements, has demonstrated it is fundamentally unfit to fulfil this crucial role.

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Barry White
Barry White (@guest_831818)
9 days ago

Guess what
I will be voting Reform
There are bad people in all parties
The MSM and WEF has joined together to stich Reform up
As as an intelligent man i would have thought you would have seen through all this

klonkie
klonkie (@guest_831884)
8 days ago
Reply to  Barry White

good for you BW!👌

Jim
Jim (@guest_831894)
8 days ago
Reply to  Barry White

I think MAGA say much the same thing 😀

I know the National Socialist German Workers Party said the exact same thing in 1932.

Jack
Jack (@guest_831922)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jim

Pathetic.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_832085)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jack

Not really it’s Jim’s view and he’s allowed to hold it and express it.

John
John (@guest_832388)
6 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

He’s allowed his opinion and people are also allowed their opinion on his opinion.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_832424)
6 days ago
Reply to  John

Stating “pathetic “ is not an opinion.It’s a rather insulting attribute adjective. Basically using an adjective as an insult is not an opinion…

FieldLander
FieldLander (@guest_831939)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jim

I am with Jim.
They would be a disaster, if Trump prevails in the US Ukraine will suffer a slow death and all the effort will have been for nought. A long expensive new cold war will follow.

Paul T
Paul T (@guest_832054)
8 days ago
Reply to  FieldLander

Ukraine currently has two choices – suffering a slow death with Biden or suffering a slow death with Trump – you choose 🙄

andy a
andy a (@guest_831989)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jim

that is a really sad comparison and attempting to paint anything new as extremist

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy (@guest_832408)
6 days ago
Reply to  andy a

Agreed.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_831909)
8 days ago
Reply to  Barry White

So are we, Barry. And most of our friends. UKDJ, go ahead and judge me, don’t give a flying toss.
I’m a good person, care for my nation, and there’s nowhere else for me to go because the mainstream parties and media WILL NOT LISTEN on issues that matter most to me, and carry out witch hunts like this.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_831911)
8 days ago

Oh, and Adolf Hitler being “brilliant” at inspiring people into action. Well, that’s true, is it not? How many devoted themselves to that evil man’s will and were mesmerized by his speeches? Millions. That you then twist that historical fact that it somehow makes one a supporter of Hitler??? Jesus Christ. As a student of The Great Patriotic War and the Eastern Front, I personally think 2 SS Panzer Korps at Kursk to be one of the greatest fighting machines that ever existed! That DOES NOT make me a f ing Nazi, just recognition of their fighting prowess, even if… Read more »

GlynH
GlynH (@guest_831913)
8 days ago

Apparently being a student of history is tantamount to being the same as those one studies. Pretty pathetic really, but these days U can’t say boo to a ghost without pissing off someone somewhere.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_831915)
8 days ago
Reply to  GlynH

Well, that makes me a cross between a German, a Roman Legionary, Norse, and a Celt!!

You’re right. The difference being is I won’t be silenced. I have an opinion. If one dislikes it, fine, then ignore.

But don’t censor me for having it or try to twist it like the person who wrote this article.

Mr_flibble
Mr_flibble (@guest_832008)
8 days ago

Correct about H, but many other historic leaders could too. Why choose the mass murdering extremist as the only example to use though ………. ?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832025)
8 days ago
Reply to  Mr_flibble

Who knows? Who was there when Jack Aaron made the comment for the context behind why he mentioned Hitler? No idea I have not looked into it.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_832093)
8 days ago

I think in this persons case I would be a bit cautious..he’s previously commented that Assad was “ genital by nature” and the Putin was justified in his invasion of Ukraine…he seems to be an individual with some very odd views. I honestly think that because reform is not a membership based party with its own checks and a big base of activists and candidates, a number of individuals with some unfortunate views have become candidates…if reform gets seats in this election..they are going to need to reform themselves into a proper political party moving forward…

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832097)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Very true. Because that fact is being used as a stick to beat them.

william james crawford
william james crawford (@guest_832316)
7 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

exactly!

ABCRodney
ABCRodney (@guest_832317)
7 days ago

Hi M8, I hope you are well and have now got your fingers crossed. There is nothing you can do now change things except join in every petition you can for PR. Because regardless of party belief there is something seriously wrong with the % of votes compared to the % of MPs. Oh and FYI in the end I voted for my local Reform candidate out of personal loyalty and nothing to do with NF. I learnt years ago you can learn a lot about a persons true character by their choice of words, actions and friends. Being a… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832339)
7 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Good for you, my friend. Yes, 4 million votes , 4 MPs. More than Libs, but they have 71? It’s designed that way. Farage has long wanted PR. Won’t happen, the establishment protect their nest. Reform did well. The smear campaign against them, and there is one, whatever one thinks of individuals characters, failed. I was even getting attack articles in my yahoo news feed. There are good and bad eggs in ALL parties, except Reform, who are of course all shaven headed neo Nazis. Just look at some of the posts on this site by faceless individuals referencing fascists… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_832089)
8 days ago
Reply to  Mr_flibble

Generally because they are the ones that we remember and really have to consider how and why did they have such mass appeal….someone preaching “ love and let’s all grow our wealth together”..that’s easy to understand how it could appeal…but “ let’s go steal everyone’s land and murder all the Slavs , Jews and travelling people, while throwing the whole world into war….that’s a bit more difficult to understand how and why…but we do have to think about it as we have a few prime examples in china, North Korea, Iran and Russia…..all leaders with mass appeal who’s message is… Read more »

john
john (@guest_832288)
7 days ago

very good answer.

Jim
Jim (@guest_831925)
8 days ago

Your actions may suggest otherwise, your voting for political extremism. That rarely works out well left or right and you’re smart enough to know that.

Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_831938)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jim

👍Exactly!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_831962)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jim

I’m voting for the one party that proposes action on the issue mist important to me, reducing immigration. None of the others are going that. So, do I then vote for no one at all? Or the other two main parties who will not and have not actioned that? So in effect, wasting my vote that millions died for me to be able to cast? I’m also “smart enough” to know that Reform are NOT going to form the next government, and Nigel Farage is NOT going to be Prime Minister, so in effect my actions cause no harm and… Read more »

pete
pete (@guest_832115)
8 days ago

The Globalists want to dilute nation states so they can achieve one world Government in the future , think Trump and Farage are ruining their plans . Biden is even letting young males from China in through the boarder !

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832128)
7 days ago
Reply to  pete

That’s the conspiracy theory that I keep hearing. Whether it is true, I’ve no definitive view either way.

andy a
andy a (@guest_831991)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jim

in what way is reform extremist? they in no way are far right

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832015)
8 days ago
Reply to  andy a

That’s a very good question: what is the definition of an extremist? How does it differ from holding fundamentalist beliefs? Is the Reform belief in the value of the traditional family now an extremist view? Should the civil offices in Texan towns be allowed to display the 10 commandments? Should we ban the hijab etc? Are you breaking the law if you pray outside an abortion clinic? Is a desire for a republican Ireland an extreme view or a fundamental view? Nothing in life is simple.Whilst I agree that our addiction to large scale immigration has adversely affected the quality… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832026)
8 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

That’s interesting, Paul. Cold Turkey? Back in the day, Farage always proposed a points based system like Australia, and acknowledged one cannot just stop entirely.
As often said, the NHS depends on such and we have an ageing population. None of those mean we should accept open borders, ongoing, with no perspective and accept every migrant who arrives here illegally. Which we are, as how many are ever actually returned?

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832072)
8 days ago

To be fair Farage has conceded that the Reform policy of freezing ‘non essential’ immigration would have exemptions for health care workers – which begs the question of how really different is his policy from what we have now. Have to say I do not understand why asylum claims take so long to process. I doubt very much they are all being thwarted by ‘lefty lawyers’ and the courts. I suspect the reason lies somewhere in the Home Office.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832075)
8 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Paul, mate. You know well enough it’s not “lefty lawyers and the courts” stopping the processing!
That will be a mix of pure work load, complexity of process, and incompetence of the Home Office.
The “lefty lawyers and the courts” are impeding the removal of the failed ones and HMGs attempts to fly individuals overseas.
There is a BIG difference.

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_832063)
8 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

The auto designated “Centrist” parties are Extremists in several subjects:

They pro immigration including illegal making the law applicable only to those they choose against. Basically destroying that part of civilization that is based on law is for everyone.

Net Zero.

Destroying food production with supposed environmental rules. Another famine is in making.

This is just some and not all of extremism from centrist parties.

pete
pete (@guest_832117)
7 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Also Labour will damage farming by removing death duty tax exemption from family farms . This will mean they will have to be sold off damaging food production !

Joe
Joe (@guest_833740)
1 day ago
Reply to  pete

What a load of nonsense.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/tories-and-labour-clash-on-farm-inheritance-tax-claims

Also, the relief only applies to farmhouses and actively farmed land. Even IF they did remove the relief (which they won’t), the only people that would buy the farmland would be other farmers as no one would gain change of use for anything else.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_832095)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jim

I would not go so far as to say political extremism…as far as I’m aware they are trying to forge a path on the far right of democratic parties…there is no suggestion of shutting down democratic checks and balances or overthrowing our democratic process. They are not my cup of team but not extremists…although I think there is a danger that they become a magnet to extremism right wing types and they will need to constantly monitor and combat this if they are to become a proper political party.

Jack
Jack (@guest_831921)
8 days ago
Reply to  Barry White

Already have, by post.

andy a
andy a (@guest_831988)
8 days ago
Reply to  Barry White

me too. I personally think labour and conservatives have failed all through my life time and this thinking is what has saddled us with a 2 party system (and the first past the post system)

Christopher
Christopher (@guest_832033)
8 days ago
Reply to  Barry White

So will I.

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_832036)
8 days ago
Reply to  Barry White

Good man 🇬🇧

Zac
Zac (@guest_832161)
7 days ago
Reply to  Barry White

Most journalists miss the entire point of having democracy which is precisely to provide a platform for ‘dangerous influence’ so that it can be rationally interrogated with public discourse. Freedom of Speech and Association are essential elements in a free society which have been eroded through Hate Speech laws which are themselves selectively applied by lawyers to manicure the political landscape so as to favour whoever pays them the most. Its democracy for sale to the highest bidder.

Aaron
Aaron (@guest_831825)
9 days ago

‘Adolf Hitler as “brilliant” at inspiring people into action’ – well wasn’t he? This is a statement of fact not an admiration of values. The similar regard for Putin mirrors the same, and I guess for Trump. Political abilities to rally a people, focus on a plan and take them along willingly is huge. Doesn’t mean it’s right. In the UK and Europe we have free communication, so can question, debate, engage in endless discord over what’s right or wrong. Other times, other places don’t enjoy this. Did the European expansion upset Putin, probably. Did it give him a bargaining… Read more »

Joe
Joe (@guest_833741)
1 day ago
Reply to  Aaron

No doubt some people are ‘inspired’ by Putin into action, but fear is a big driver for most people.

Have you seen the new Russian arrest warrant issued for Navalny’s wife on the basis of her being an extremist?

Colin Brooks
Colin Brooks (@guest_831830)
9 days ago

I will be voting reform and this article should NOT be on UKDJ.

Jim
Jim (@guest_831898)
8 days ago
Reply to  Colin Brooks

It’s about the defence and foreign policy of the third or fourth biggest party in Britain so why should it not be on here?

What part of their assessment do you disagree with or is it just too many home truths for you to handle?

Colin Brooks
Colin Brooks (@guest_832016)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jim

Any article that goes FOR or AGAINST a political party is political, an article which simply aims to asses the defence policy of a party is not POLITICAL

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832029)
8 days ago
Reply to  Colin Brooks

That is a point I highlighted. The other articles in this series, on all the parties, including an earlier one on Reform, looked at the policies only. These latest Reform ones centred on Farage are just naked attacks with an agenda behind them. I’d also be very interested in the context behind the comments that these Reform candidates have made, rather than a witch hunt based on the hunters ( so the mass media ) point of view/agenda, which of course receives maximum publicity as that is the whole point of the exercise. Were these candidates vetted? By whom? Who… Read more »

Last edited 8 days ago by Daniele Mandelli
Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_831940)
8 days ago
Reply to  Colin Brooks

Of course the article should be on here! It is an analysis of Reform’s defence policy.
You don’t like home truths?

Last edited 8 days ago by Meirion X
Tomartyr
Tomartyr (@guest_832174)
7 days ago
Reply to  Colin Brooks

I preferred when UKDJ had a total ban on politics, especially in the comments.

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy (@guest_832409)
6 days ago
Reply to  Colin Brooks

Agreed.

Geo
Geo (@guest_831832)
9 days ago

Sit doon Shane………jeezo

Marshall Jones
Marshall Jones (@guest_831833)
9 days ago

My father was an early member of The Independence Party as well as having been an advisor to the Late Margaret Thatcher. I sat in on interviews he held with potential candidates for that party. Of Reform I have no contact or relationship. Building a political party is not easy however. Candidates do not always tell you the truth either. The party workers are necessary to go out and canvass on behalf of the party. They are also necessary to hold fund raising events. Thus I suspect in the haste to gather together sufficient mass the process of filtering candidates… Read more »

Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_831941)
8 days ago
Reply to  Marshall Jones

“However though that it should have been obvious given Russian history that potentially rushing NATO’s borders and the EU up to Russias borders was bound to provoke a reaction.”

You are sprouting similar nonsense to Farage.
Without an indepth analysis of NATO and Russia relations since the ending of the Cold War.
Don’t forget, that Russia signed agreements like Russia-NATO Foundation Act of 1997 paving the way for former Warsaw Pact Nations to join NATO in 1999.

Last edited 8 days ago by Meirion X
Paul T
Paul T (@guest_832053)
8 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

James Baker, the then US Secretary of State wrote a letter to Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990 giving reassurances about the lack of intent for NATO to move easrwards, I put a link up in another thread, it exists it’s fact.

Lonpfrb
Lonpfrb (@guest_832381)
6 days ago
Reply to  Paul T

Point of Order It’s not for an American politician to make any commitment for future NATO membership rather it is the right of sovereign nations to decide by democratic process to apply for membership. Sweden and Finland most recently did that despite some delay caused by Türkiye. It has nothing to do with non members thought a terrorist state may cause voters to support membership through their criminal acts. Describing the pretext used by the terrorist state is not agreement or justification of that pretext. In order to defeat a terrorist it is reasonable to understand their motivation as a… Read more »

Challenger
Challenger (@guest_831835)
9 days ago

I don’t like Farage or Reform particularly, but I can completely see why they have support. The longer the mainstream political classes fail the nation on the crucial issues facing us the more extremism right across the political spectrum will flourish to fill that gap.

Jim
Jim (@guest_831901)
8 days ago
Reply to  Challenger

Yes I agree, main stream party’s have buried their heads across the west over difficult political decisions like immigration leading to an explosion of ultra right parties disguised as alt right.

But Nigel Farage is no answer, he is a politicians politician.

pete
pete (@guest_832120)
7 days ago
Reply to  Jim

Quality of senior MP’s is lower than in past, mostly viewed as self enriching , favors repaid later with excessive after dinner speaking fees !

Tomartyr
Tomartyr (@guest_832175)
7 days ago
Reply to  Challenger

It has more to do with what the media sells to us: convincing 67 million Brits they’re being replaced one dinghy at a time for example

Jon
Jon (@guest_831849)
9 days ago

I think the article misses the point. Look at Aaron’s comment: Well, Hitler was good at inspiring people to action. I can’t disagree with him. It’s factually correct. Hitler was a demagogue and that’s what demagogues do well. So why is the writer of the article up in arms? There’s fact and there’s nuance. Experienced politicians speak in nuances as much as in facts. You know who else is a great demagogue? Nigel Farage. Were I a politician, I would never have said that. Now there’s nothing too wrong in calling Farage a demagogue or a populist, but one paragraph… Read more »

Jim
Jim (@guest_831902)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jon

It never fails to amaze me that the right can take Mentally ill barely literate gamblers like Hitler, Putin, Farage and Trump and somehow project a persona of competence on them.

I find their need for a “strong man” to be quite emasculating for the men in their movement.

Chris
Chris (@guest_831852)
9 days ago

The UKDJ needs to bow out on the political articles.

Peter S
Peter S (@guest_831856)
9 days ago
Reply to  Chris

Slow week for defence so pad it out with not very well articulated political opinions?
I’d rather have seen an item on the latest concerns about NGAD expressed by USAF leaders. Worry about costs and excessive complexity have a direct read across to our Tempest programme.

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_832010)
8 days ago
Reply to  Peter S

Precisely, i posted about that that in another thread.

Jim
Jim (@guest_831904)
8 days ago
Reply to  Chris

I don’t seem to remember many having issues with discussing Scottish independence, Brexit or austerity on here.

Indeed the defence policy of all the party’s has been discussed on here at length so why don’t you want Reform discussed?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_831914)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jim

Other articles on defence policy of the individual parties were just that, articles. There were no follow up “attack” articles on Labour, Liberals, or Welsh nationalist, unlike the two or three there have been against Reform. That’s fine, as it’s George’s site and I’d never, ever criticise the site owner. Indeed, I gave him a good sized donation just the other day. What I find amusing though is….It’s clearly not working, judging by the support Reform still has from posters here that can see through the obvious agenda underway. Always the same when the establishment is under threat. Happened in… Read more »

Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_831946)
8 days ago
Reply to  Chris

It is the underlying politics that is the foundation of defence and foreign policies.
The articles which you see as political, are an analysis of political parties defence and foreign policy!

ChrisLondon
ChrisLondon (@guest_831990)
8 days ago
Reply to  Chris

The site cannot bow out of political issues while it is constantly abused as a forum to undermine the UK.

We have regular pieces on here about irregular warfare ie misinformation campaigns.

The discussions here over the last nine months have seen seven calls for a military coup if Labour win this election. All from four people, the three who account for six of the calls have all endorsed Reform.

I think this piece was called for but it is too little too late.

Bazza
Bazza (@guest_831855)
9 days ago

As much as I resent Farage and those who blindly follow him, if he manages to make Labour take Immigration seriously then I will have to begrudgingly respect the man.

Enoch
Enoch (@guest_831871)
8 days ago
Reply to  Bazza

Labour will never take immigration seriously. They reply on immigration and the young to vote for them.

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_832012)
8 days ago
Reply to  Bazza

Understand one thing. Labour hates western civilization, for them immigration is tool to destroy it.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832030)
8 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Pretty much what Farage has been saying for years, including to me personally.
What the actual level of truth is behind that I’m unsure.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_831879)
8 days ago

I don’t think this article is appropriate for UKDJ. Contributors here are like everyone else, a cross section. If they share the values of a political party they will be attracted by its arguments and policies will consider giving them their vote. End of.

Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_831949)
8 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

As I have said before, it is an analysis of a party’s defence and foreign policy.

Last edited 8 days ago by Meirion X
Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_831957)
8 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

In politics the head is mostly used to rationalise what is in the heart.

Andrew
Andrew (@guest_831908)
8 days ago

Hmm, I think the analysis is wrong. I will be voting Reform – I’ve listened to Farage for years and he has consistently called for higher defence spending; hardly a new position. Now, I don’t actually agree with Farage’s analysis of the Ukraine war either, but it’s not difficult to support Nato membership and be critical of its past decisions. All he would have to do as PM is block eastern expansion, which would be easy as each country has a veto. As for quotes – they can be easily be out of context, badly worded, or perhaps in some… Read more »

Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_831953)
8 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

“All he would have to do as PM is block eastern expansion…”

You are sprouting the same Nonsense as Farage, without an indepth detail of Russian and NATO agreements since the ending of the Cold War.
Also not forgetting that Russian imperial appetite has increased since putin came to power!

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_831910)
8 days ago

I in no way love reform, but I think calling them a dangerous influence is overblown..as long as they are not calling for actions that impact on our democracy they simply have a view..As an example Trump and his supports are a danger to US politics as he challenges the validity of outcomes and now has the Supreme Court judges effectively changing the foundations of the rule of law in the US…reform are in no way that. The true dangerous influence on our political system is apathy and that sets in if people think there is no political party that… Read more »

grizzler
grizzler (@guest_831918)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“Reform are in no way that”.-Not yet they’re not but don’t be fooled Farage is cut from the same cloth as Trump.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_831919)
8 days ago
Reply to  grizzler

ohh I agree he’s a man that our checks and balances were designed to manage.if he ever tried to step out of them then he would be a danger.

But I’m a firm believer in not judging someone on what you think they may do…only what they actually do.

Last edited 8 days ago by Jonathan
Jon
Jon (@guest_831983)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Clacton is an interesting case that highlights two parties’ disdain for their own candidates and the voters. First Farage wakes up one morning, and apparently on a whim, takes over the Reform party, ousting its leader and ousting the previous candidate for Reform in Clacton, without local agreement. (Mack is now standing as an independent against Farage.) That’s the level of arrogance of the man and his belief in consensus and democracy. It’s also a measure of his effectiveness that he wasn’t told where to shove it. Labour decided a week ahead of the vote to order its candidate for… Read more »

Simon
Simon (@guest_832006)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jon

In Farage’s case it is all about his ego. He was never going to allow Reform to do anything what out him if they stood a chance of doing well. In an odd way it is almost an re-run of Arthur Scargill in some way that he brought the government down in 1973 and was going to do it again in 1984.

grizzler
grizzler (@guest_831917)
8 days ago

Theres a world of difference between voting on a binary single item – e.g. Brexit – and the plethora of policies & decisions required to run a country. Personally I think the bloke is a subversive charlatan- full of trite platitudes, ‘promises’ – and shit. Vote Reform get Labour – simple. As for thinking Hitler brilliant at inspiring people into action – action into what exacty, he just taped into a particular psychi , and used violence and fear to control the rest. Jumped up little Austrian corporal , manic , psychotic ,paranoid . if there is respect or justification… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832549)
6 days ago
Reply to  grizzler

Yes but, in many Northern seats, vote Conservative & get Labour.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63 (@guest_831923)
8 days ago

Just hope for the 🇬🇧 sake that whoever gets in has the vision and want to do a good job for the whole of Britain and all its people and to keep building on all its international relationships. Time for change if that’s what the people wants and the country needs.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_831947)
8 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Thanks – generous sentiments. As the saying goes, you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time. The conservatives will lose badly because people have seen through their bravado…..they have seen that ‘the emperor has no clothes’. The country needs honest, competent government by people of integrity. It’s not a lot to ask really.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_831950)
8 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Sadly it seems to have been, I’m keeping my fingers crossed. A lot will depend on if starmer has managed to deal with the ideological far left…in reality it’s always the ideological fringes of each party that cause the issue in government.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_831956)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I think we may be seeing a realignment of UK politics with more votes going to fringe parties.The far right group in the Tory party has been flushed out and it’s new home is Reform. I see the left’ causes becoming more obvious in the Greens and the SNP e.g. the Palestinian cause, gender self ID. The conservatives and the libdems will form the next opposition to what will be essentially a centre left, social democrat govt. ..wonder if we will see the libdems and the tories merge into a new right of centre party.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_831964)
8 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I think you may be correct, it will sort of depend on how many seats the greens and reform get as well as how well the libdems rebuild their base. I’m not actually a great lover of the concept of two broad church parties…I don’t think it’s healthy for democracy and as we have seen creates disenfranchised voters. So I would love to see rainbow politics in the UK. This time around I suspect we will see a very strong Labour majority but that’s a reactive vote against the tories and I think If the seeds are set ( 4-5… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_831979)
8 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

It might be controversial but I think that the labour govt will make the UK a haven of stability and good sense. Pivotal challenge will be the relationship between Keir Starmer and Victor Orban. Will France lurch to the right and align with Meloni and Orban who says he wants to create a right wing block within the EU? I hear Starmer says he can’t see us rejoining the EU in his lifetime. The Starmer – Orban confrontaton looks like a good boxing match.

Last edited 8 days ago by Paul.P
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832031)
8 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

“It might be controversial but I think that the labour govt will make the UK a haven of stability and good sense.”

I would jump at that, Paul! Given what lurks beneath the Labour party and the MPs in its own ranks from the far left, I fear.
I am allowed to use the term “far left” aren’t I? After all, Reform are labelled “Far right” all the time…..what’s good for the goose? Or is it only “allowed” one way?

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832073)
8 days ago

Sounds like the film ‘what lurks beneath’ 🙂

Sure, there is aways the possibility of a party being infiltrated by activists who engineer their stooge into leadership positions. Have to say though that the people of this country are pretty level headed on the whole. Labour got no where under Corbyn and the Tories are presently regretting Johnson and Truss.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832081)
8 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Always the possibility. Like Truss? Like Sunak? No national vote there. So yes, my fear remains. I note you didn’t comment on my Far Left, Far Right point. Far Right is being thrown around on this site and elsewhere for propaganda purposes as we speak, tarring Reform in the same colours as C18, BNP, and all, by design. Which is cobblers concerning the majority of Reform members and voters, and others concerned with this issue. Some of whom I know personally or have met previously, including war vets. Which is pretty disgusting. So thought It only fair I readdress the… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832103)
8 days ago

Whoa! The far left will not be in power tomorrow. The labour cabinet will consist of a majority of people with a working class upbringing but that’s not the same thing. The far right, in terms of their economic ideology, were in power for a few weeks with Truss. ..until the markets forced a return to sanity.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832131)
7 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

As I said “part of the party in power” so Labour on the government benches.
Not ministers, no.
And if they start to be?

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832169)
7 days ago

Always the possibility of shooting yourself in the foot; something the tories must be painfully awarexof this morning. But reading their wiki life histories I think that’s unlikely. Main risk will come from the unions. First test will be rail and doctors strikes. Hopefully these groups will be placated by being convinced of labour’s philosophical commitment to nationalised rail and NHS. In the last 2 years labour has invested a lot of time with business and industry to get them on board with labour’s approach to the economy – more like the German model I think – partnership with an… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832197)
7 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Good economy detail there, Paul. Thank you. That actually sounds good
Now, when are the cuts happening?!

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832202)
7 days ago

😂
Good one. Dunno. Have to wait and see what Ms Reeves comes up with. First indications are they will go after uncollected tax and closing some allowances on liability for capital gains tax. They won’t touch primary residence but my understanding is that governments can do budget changes without passing legislation. Kings speech July 17th we get to know what’s in store. Rumours of a very quick announcement on housing. Don’t know the status of the renters reform bill – the bill which outlaws no fault evictions.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_832124)
7 days ago

Yes I think people use terms like far left and far right as pejorative statements without really providing the context of what they mean by far right and far left..it’s the same with the terms communism and fascist… It also gets a bit mixed up with nationalist parties as well…traditionally nationalists parties are by nature right wing..but they seem to dress themselves up in other cloths these days. but if you ask the political scientists they will give you the following spectrum: far right, extreme right, radical right, hard right and ultra right are essentially Neo fascist ideologies, that are… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832132)
7 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Good summery. Good, so I’m NOT some foaming at the mouth neo Nazi then, that’s a relief.
And by those standards, this article is a load of bull in several areas.
The Goggins comment is another one. It’s even been discussed here over the years that our perceived weakness green lighted and encouraged Galtieri.
Endurance withdrawn, Invincible sold to Australia?
And that is twisted to be “Goggins says Thatcher caused it” literally, when it was our weakness that encourages them that she, I think, referrs to.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney (@guest_832336)
7 days ago

Don’t be silly your a Signalman you are only allowed to foam at the mouth when at work and being paid for it. The massive surge in reform suggests you aren’t in a minority many voted for it, and many more just didn’t bother. But in case no one noticed a hell of a lot of people who were going to vote Reform didn’t ? Polls had Tory and Reform both on 19% so 38% of voters were right of centre. The actual vote on the day was 14% Reform and 24% Tory so still 38% were right of centre.… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832342)
7 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Which Derby constituency mate? So I can look up your man.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832186)
7 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I think it is more helpful to categorise political philosophies as ideologies, populism or nativism. Successful parties manage to meld these into electable coalitions. Boris Johnson built a successful coalition around Brexit fervour. This has fallen apart and been replaced by the coalition built by Starmer. Brexit and covid did two things. Firstly, it revealed the deep seated self seeking cronyism in the Tory party. But secondly, and crucially, the British people remembered that the way you get through existential crises is by rolling up your sleeves, being responsible, caring, co-operating and being prepared to make sacrifices. As a result… Read more »

pete
pete (@guest_832121)
7 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

As a former communist he has flip flopped lol

Johnny Lincoln
Johnny Lincoln (@guest_831934)
8 days ago

Oh dear, has M/s Tice/Farage, et al. upset the establishment? Perhaps the WEF/WHO/Brussels/BBC have a different message: “Kow-tow to us like a good little party and we will tell you how to run the country.” I saw Tice and Farage speak recently and they were excellent intelligent business men with innovative ideas about getting the country back to work and making money, in the process increasing wealth. Go Tice, Go Farage.

Barry White
Barry White (@guest_831954)
8 days ago
Reply to  Johnny Lincoln

Nice one
Love it
Off to vote soon
Come on M/s Tice/Farage, et al

Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_831955)
8 days ago
Reply to  Johnny Lincoln

“…I saw Tice and Farage speak recently and they were excellent intelligent business men with innovative ideas about getting the country back to work and making money…”

But Farage has certainly failed to study Russian and NATO relations and agreements since the ending of the Cold War, of which he should have done.

Cognitio68
Cognitio68 (@guest_831958)
8 days ago

Farage’s analysis of Ukraine is flawed. It assumes that Russia is a rational actor and that it is only reacting to being provoked and also that the wish of some (probably most of Ukraine) to move towards the West was an artificial construct. Putin is a Russian nationalist. His objective was always to “restore” Ukraine to Russia whether the Ukrainian people desired that or not. The true cause of this war was not an EU political desire to bring Ukraine into their political and economic order. The cause was instead lazy and foolish EU political leaders like Merkel, Hollande and… Read more »

JK
JK (@guest_831959)
8 days ago

When all of the mainstream media team up to go after one guy, you know they’re doing something right.

No one here should be put off for voting for whichever party they like. I don’t understand why articles like this are on this website, but it seems really out of place.

FieldLander
FieldLander (@guest_831977)
8 days ago

Unfortunately this article has only served to demonstrate why politics should probably be left out of discussion on defence, on a defence related site. It has certainly acted to allow people to express their true feelings.
Whilst I do not agree with the apparent majority on this site, I suspect I will agree with the majority in the only poll that counts.
The we’ll see how the new regime copes with having less than ‘no money’.

andy a
andy a (@guest_831992)
8 days ago

Am I missing something? this article is Wokery at its worst. If I say Adolf Hitler was brilliant at playing football that is in no way saying I support Hitler of what he did. Are thought police running the show now?

Mark F
Mark F (@guest_831995)
8 days ago

Some people have a great ability and aptitude to get their views/ voice over to a crowd.
Look at Billy Graham (US Evangelist), Freddie Mercury, Taylor Swift, Adolf Hilter at Nuremberg rallies, J F Kennedy and D Trump on the US presidential campaigns, and Margaret Thatcher on the “campaign trail” and addressing EU Leaders.
Some are able to draw a crowd and get their message over.
Irrespective of your political views, Nigel Farage holds a crowd, whilst Starmer, Sunak and Davey have a presentation ability of wet lettuce.

Nat White
Nat White (@guest_832003)
8 days ago

Is this Article another Plant to discredit Reform!!??😠

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_832014)
8 days ago
Reply to  Nat White

The only thing it does is discredit ukdefencejournal.
There are things to not like about ReformUK but a dishonest article like this just is one more point for them.

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy (@guest_832413)
6 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Agreed.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832038)
8 days ago
Reply to  Nat White

With delicious timing, for the last 2 days, on my “Yahoo News” have been the obligatory articles highlighting two successful refugees who came to the UK long ago, made a success of their lives, and so on. Excellent happy ending stories. Both complained they now see “refugees being treated differently” The timing is deliberate, exactly the same as these articles. The wording is priceless. Apart from the minority of neo nazi, far right BNP types, no one has an issue with a “Refugee” it is finding the genuine refugee amongst the thousands of economic migrants that is the issue. And… Read more »

Simon
Simon (@guest_832101)
8 days ago

All I can say is I must know a lot of neo nazi, far right BNP types, as I have a large number of friends and acquaintances who have no truck with anyone coming to the UK. most of them are planning to vote reform (the ones on benefits who are,amuse me the most!!)

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832126)
7 days ago
Reply to  Simon

It’s tiresome mud slinging, most often without foundation.
Yes, that colourful description would apply to just about my entire family in the eyes of those who spread this nonsense.

Simon
Simon (@guest_832137)
7 days ago

TBH, I don’t agree with these views ( that no body should be allowed here), although we do seem to have an issue with economic migrants. To my mind most people seem to be missing that a lot of Reform policy is geared towards tax breaks for rich people and big corporations ( 15% corporation Tax anyone !) Anyway the die has been cast now so we will have to see what happens

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832138)
7 days ago
Reply to  Simon

Neither do I. Neither do others I know. My own father was a migrant. But he had a job in place before he came. Migration needs to be controlled. 250,000 a year increase, ongoing, of population is not controlled, or sensible, or sustainable. And we’ve just voted for the party that opened the doors in 97 and just a few years ago wanted to give the vote to all non UK nationals and open all immigration centres. I predict trouble head. Any way, I’m not bothering to watch the circus on TV of yet another establishment party that’ll change nothing.… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832551)
6 days ago

DM, did you hear Ann Widdicombe speak in Guildford, just days before the election? I was dragged along by a friend & must admit I enjoyed it.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832553)
6 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Hi John.
No! Had no idea.

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832582)
6 days ago

In the Bunker of the Mandalay, Friday before election.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832766)
5 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Sorry, I’ve never actually heard of the place!

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832839)
5 days ago

Used to be the Carlton Hotel. Down from Glive, by the traffic lights/London Rd Station.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832865)
5 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Ok, Glive I’m familiar, my wife volunteers there!
She knows the Mandalay.

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_832009)
8 days ago

Ridiculous article.
Half of Labour hates Western Civilization what Shane Mason have to say about it?
Lots of Labour members are Marxists a genocidal ideology, what Shane Mason have to say about it?

Christopher
Christopher (@guest_832032)
8 days ago

This is a terrible article and has no place on this website.
reform have their problem candidates as do others, it has always been that way.
As for the Falklands, announced the withdrawal of Endurance, the planned sale of the carriers WAS taken as a signal at the time, that is hardly revisionist.
EU enlargement and a coup in the Ukraine was a provocation (to a nasty man that didn’t need much provoking).
increased defence spending does not have to be dedicated to NATO, ships for the gulf, staights and SCS would be money well spent.

Geneticengineer
Geneticengineer (@guest_832037)
8 days ago

Underneath the UKDJ logo at the top of the page is the word “impartial”. Please delete this typo. Thanks

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832133)
7 days ago

😆 Very good spot.

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832554)
6 days ago

What about Tory candidates who used their inside knowledge to place bets on the date of the election?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832765)
5 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Candidates? I thought that was some idiot in Sunaks staff? Sack him.

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832840)
5 days ago

Both, allegedly.

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy (@guest_832414)
6 days ago

Quite right.

Sheffield Steve
Sheffield Steve (@guest_832070)
8 days ago

The great thing about living in democracy is that we have a choice, a choice to believe that Reform as our saviours or ego centric idiots. We have a choice. No one is forced to read UKDJ, we all come here to read the articles and debate. We have a choice. Each and every one of, for today only, wields identical power at the ballot box today. We have a choice. Depending how you at immigration, it’s a massive threat or an opportunity. When you stop and think about it, starting from the last ice age, through to the Romans,… Read more »

pete
pete (@guest_832113)
8 days ago

Cameron was more dangerous , pulled troops out of Germany to save 250 million a year saying there was no money and foreign aid money increased by 2.6 billion in 2014. The message he sent Putin was we are no longer interested in defending Europe. If aid increase was his proudest thing why does he not give large sums of his after dinner speaking money to charity, clearly promoted beyond ability !

Carrickter
Carrickter (@guest_832136)
7 days ago

If I lived in a constituency where Reform were standing I would be voting for them.

Labour are far more dangerous. Starmer is the tame side, but there are a lot of dangerous lefties with influence in senior positions. This is especially true when the rest of the western world is turning to the right e.g. France, Germany, Italy, USA, Canada.

Zac
Zac (@guest_832160)
7 days ago

Don’t worry, their role is to be unelectable. They’re the Globalist’s idea of what a nationalist is (along with the BNP, EDL and UKIP). An quango funded affectation of political opposition to the big 3 Globalist parties (Con, Lab & Libdem), acting as a lightning rod for voters frustrated with what Globalists are doing to England without its democratic consent. They’re controlled opposition to prevent organised opposition. So, don’t worry. Make a cup of tea, kick up your feet and enjoy the show called ‘democracy’ they put on for you. Everything will continue as it did before. Mass immigration will… Read more »

Tomartyr
Tomartyr (@guest_832168)
7 days ago

real mask off moment for all the closet fascists in the comments here

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832556)
6 days ago
Reply to  Tomartyr

& the well paid communists too?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832867)
5 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

They’re unable to differentiate between fascist and someone worried sick the way their nation is going.
I’ve been called such myself, from someone who knew nothing about me beyond that I was campaigning for Brexit.
It’s wrong, it’s crap, but I don’t think their Brain can see it any other way.

D.Roberts
D.Roberts (@guest_832178)
7 days ago

I shall rest a little easier knowing only 15% of the population voted for agent farages party. The UK is on the edge of a demographic nightmare due to the indigenous birth rate, we need immigration.

Jacko
Jacko (@guest_832189)
7 days ago
Reply to  D.Roberts

Really well only 35% of the 59% of people who actually voted gave Labour that majority! This is going to be the shortest honenymoon in history and if the cons can fall so far in 5 yrs so can labour!

D.Roberts
D.Roberts (@guest_832195)
7 days ago
Reply to  Jacko

I agree, labour has alot of work to do.

Carrickter
Carrickter (@guest_832198)
7 days ago
Reply to  D.Roberts

Immigration has too many negatives associated with it, particularly the cultural differences. What we need to do is raise the British birth rate by making childcare and homes affordable.

D.Roberts
D.Roberts (@guest_832212)
7 days ago
Reply to  Carrickter

Absolutely right, I’m in Cornwall, we have a massive problem with homelessness, but a huge number of empty second homes. The two child benefit cap should be scrapped too

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy (@guest_832417)
6 days ago
Reply to  D.Roberts

Great, the feckless get to breed more.

D.Roberts
D.Roberts (@guest_832432)
6 days ago
Reply to  Dave Wolfy

It’s either that, or immigration, you choose.

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy (@guest_832451)
6 days ago
Reply to  D.Roberts

Easy answer, resolve the root cause – scrap the current welfare system, then start again from scratch.
Stop giving money to the people who breed because of it. My wife and I did not have a third child because we could not afford another.
Stop giving money and accomodation to people who come here illegally.
Done.

pete
pete (@guest_832190)
7 days ago

Thatcher was advised against withdrawing the ice breaker patrol ship from the Falklands. It was stated by Lord Carrington that its removal would send the message to Argentinian that we would be less willing to defend them. This is the same message that Cameron pulling the troops out of Germany sent to Putin . Many people said Blair’s wars in the middle east would destabilize the region. Perhaps the writer of this article should study history before spouting rubbish in denial of cause and effect !

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832196)
7 days ago

Well the mass media scare campaign to put people off Reform didn’t seem to work very well did it.
My wife and I, Conservatives for most of our lives, walked down to the polling station here in sunny Guildford, birds tweeting, and happily consigned the Tory MP to history, in the process helping the Lib Dems, by placing an X next to Reform.
They were never going to make massive inroads in the South East.
And Nigel Farage is now an MP, AT LAST.
You all have a pleasant morning.

william james crawford
william james crawford (@guest_832313)
7 days ago

what a load of sheer baloney. Hitler was brilliant at motivating people, how can anyone take exception to that fact? We did precipitate the Falklands War by withdrawing our guardship to make the assault feasible. I could go on but won’t bother. Yes, Reform fielded some unsuitable candidate, but they started from scratch, and did a great job of filling all the candidate lists at all. Just as with the other parties only more so due to the circumstances, the vetting procedure this time fell short, but the heads of the party are sound. A lifelong Conservative, I voted Reform… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832367)
6 days ago

Bravo William.

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy (@guest_832407)
6 days ago

Great, yet another political rant on a supposedly defence/military website.
Dire.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832468)
6 days ago

I don’t think there is sufficient appreciation of the underlying reason why the Conservatism government lost. Conservative ideology is about freedom for the market and the individual – capitalism – Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations – Thatcherism. Conservatism is also about being guided by cumulative wisdom of experience. Nothing wrong with all that; this ideology has maintained stability and prosperity for 200 years – we only have labour or national governments when there is some cataclysmic world event – wars trigger major changes in society. Covid, Brexit and the climate crisis have been a kind of war. They have… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832558)
6 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

First past the post works fine in a two party system. It is hopeles in seats split 3 or 4 ways. Some MPs won with only 26-27% of the vote. How is that democratic? Even the simplified version of the alternative vote, with just a first & second choice, would work better in seats split 3, 4 or even 5 ways.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832571)
6 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Point taken about the fringe seats. I’ve not studied the various flavours of PR. All I know is that they attempt to make the number of representatives elected proportional to the number of votes cast, leaving the representatives to form a coalition government. ‘Fairness’ to minority parties is meant to result in better quality government. I’m not sure experience demonstrates that this is the case. I might be more open to PR if voting was made compulsory.

Last edited 6 days ago by Paul.P
John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832587)
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Turnout varied. Some places were 70%+ while others were below 50%. Rather than try & force people to vote, why not make their votes count more. We do not need full PR, but a halfway house may encourage more people to vote.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832591)
5 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Agree the pressure for PR will increase. The big 2 parties will find it harder to resist if voting for the smaller parties continues to be popular. Just saying that in the UK, pressure for special interests like the environment does get results via parliamentary debate, amendments to legislation and committee work. That said I accept that the EU consensus style system has produced better protection for the environment than the UK system. But even the EU is struggling to reach consensus with issues like immigration, Ukraine and net zero farming and energy. If I was reforming democracy in the… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832600)
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Well my halfway house would elect the Commons on the simplified alternative vote (first/second pref). As for the Lords, Blair cut the number of Hereditaries to 92. So now cut the number of life peers to 92. Then have 100 members of the Lords elected on the party list system, we used when we were in the EU.

grizzler
grizzler (@guest_832835)
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

What as in getting rid of devolution and metropolitan mayor’s powers-I hope?
As for a senate – no thanks look how it stymies ‘democracy’ in the US.
I think the house of lords in essence is a good thing – I actually think hereditary peers can have a benefit due to their independance compared to the blatant politicised appointments that are now becoming more prevelant

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_832868)
5 days ago
Reply to  grizzler

Decentralisation cannot and should not be reversed. Central and local govt will make for a better country. All participants need to commit to making it work, treating each other with mutual respect and honouring mutual obligations – something of a new concept for the Tories. Fortunately the country is under new management committee to a change in culture. Agree there are many heteditary peets who are well qualified and committed to public service. A way should be found for them to make a contribution. Also agree your comment on politicised appointments. The House of Lords is too big. Any changes… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_832764)
5 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

I used to make THAT point on the SNP and their supposed “mandate” for referendum.
More votes would go to the unionist parties combined than to the SNP who win the seat, as the other parties are split 3 ways.

grizzler
grizzler (@guest_832834)
5 days ago
Reply to  John Hartley

How is it democratic? Possibly because more people voted for them than any other party.
I simply cannot agree with PR it merely gives those parties with lowest votes an (ironically) disproportionate power to vote ratio.
Its those parties that shout loudest for it- funnily enough.

John Hartley
John Hartley (@guest_832843)
5 days ago
Reply to  grizzler

So if an MP is elected with 26% of the vote,how is that more people voted for him/her/they, than the 74% who voted for other parties? Labour now has a 170 seat majority with only 34% of the vote. 66% voted for other parties. How legitimate is that?