Ukrainian tank crews have arrived in the UK to begin training on Challenger 2 Main Battle Tanks.
The UK will provide Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine alongside global partner nations – “demonstrating the strength of support for Ukraine, internationally”.
Ukrainian tank crews have arrived in the UK to begin training for their continued fight against Russia.
The UK will provide Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine alongside global partner nations – demonstrating the strength of support for Ukraine, internationally.#StandWithUkraine pic.twitter.com/OLKtllePzN
— Ministry of Defence 🇬🇧 (@DefenceHQ) January 29, 2023
I reported last week that British Challenger 2 Main Battle Tanks will be in Ukrainian hands for use against Russian forces by the end of March, with Ukrainian troops beginning training on the tanks this week.
The information came to light after a Parliamentary written question was lodged. Rachel Hopkins, the Shadow Minister for Defence, asked:
“We also welcome the Tallinn pledge as an important statement of western unity and intent to provide Ukraine with the support it needs. The west is united and we move together at a vital moment for Ukrainian forces. We encourage the Government to continue to work with NATO and European allies to deliver the support Ukraine needs to face down Putin’s aggression. It is now our duty to make sure that Ukraine wins this war. Can the Minister say when he expects Ukrainian troops to begin their training with our Challenger 2 tanks, and when he expects those tanks, and the tanks being sent by NATO allies, to begin to arrive on the frontline?”
Alex Chalk, Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, responded:
“I am pleased to say that training is expected to start next week on Monday. She asked when the Challenger 2 tank will be in theatre; the intention is that that will be at the end of March. Between then there will be a significant programme of training, not just for the tank crews who are to operate the vehicle, but for those who will be charged with maintaining it. I am happy to discuss that further in due course if questions arise.”
I talk about what the sending of tanks signifies here.
Great news they are here to begin training. Hopefully the government decides another 14/28/42 tanks should be given ASAP so they can all arrive at roughly the same time. 14 is a start but not enough really.
The uk current plans for upgrades leaves 80+ spare.
Let the tanks do what they were built to do. Be free tanks, hopefully spare warriors are next on the list.
👍👍👍
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More would be great, but I reckon just 14 would soon demolish the 1944 vintage T34s that Russia has just acquired from Africa 😆
Apparently Ukraine organises it’s tanks in battalions of 31 tanks – hence the number of Abrams donated. So perhaps another 17 ultimately?
Agreed. But a few extra as Attrition Reserve – round it up to 20.
The approach so far has been always drip feed – Ukrainians show they can operate well then add more. I suspect this is the approach here. Either that or the cupboard is bare w.r.t. the 80 or so in storage – stripped for parts or similar.
Reopen production line with new to Ch3 standard.
The 30 T34/85s came from Laos back in 2019 for use in Russia’s historic vehicle parades etc.
Well Russia’s historic vehicles parades in Ukraine have been a big hit for NLAW and Javelin operators 🤣
The historic vehicle parades also have an amazing party piece of self ejecting turrets. The go shooting up into the air and make a real spectacle to behold.
Better sight than fireworks I believe 😏
Now that the ball is rolling with tanks from several places, it would be a good gesture if we upped our commitment. As you say there are quite a few in reserve and I assume that those already committed are coming from there, to offer another company to get the numbers up to 28 would be a very positive move. It’s time we all stopped pussyfooting around with the Soviets and really fought fire with fire.
Agreed too much pussyfooting reluctance…
✔️ ATACMS long range missiles asap
✔️ F16s – start training now
Indeed, or Storm Shadow integrated onto their fighter aircraft. 500 km bunker busting missile with no export controls from other countries to worry about. 50 delivered against critical Russian infrastructure on/near Ukraine’s border on the eve of a combined arms counter-attack with all the Western tanks/other armour should be quite effective.
👍
Agree. Apparently 31 Abrams corresponds to a Ukrainian battalion. We should be sending another 31 CR2s asap. We could then put pressure on Germany to send the same number of Leopards. With what has already been committed Ukraine could have 90 tier 1 western tanks to deploy by late March. If the promised US Bradleys and Strykers ( around 300 in total I think) can be got there the Ukrainians could mount one or two serious armoured spearheads.
I understood that those 80+ are for spares rather than as spares.
That said it’s probably better to use them rather than keep them for the rainiest day.
Also others have pointed out it’s much easier to fabricate spare parts as needed.
I wish the uk would just bite the bullet and either make new tanks or get a foreign tank.
150 remade challenger 2 tanks might become a pain in the butt to operate at some point.
A challenger 3 production line could see more export potential than pre 2022.
Hopefully the Chally performs well enough in Ukraine for a production line including domestic and export versions. Much more than what we sold to Oman for example.
As far as I understand it so far it’s getting a new turret, new sensors, engine upgrade, suspension tweaks among other items. If they took the challenger 2 hull design making small modifications where needed it should hopefully all work fine. Perkins still make engines, even a 1500hp version of the cv12. A cost comparison would at least be interesting to see. Using the experience gain to put into a new tank design. Germany has really shot itself in the foot with its leapord 2 restrictions. It’s still really hard to get an answer if new Abrams are made or… Read more »
The numbers to be upgraded is under review at present. I expect it to increase beyond the 148.
Problem with that is where is the money coming from. Either an increase is needed or something else would have to be cut. The defence budget is fully allocated and then some on top.
Where did the Government find the over £400bn for the Covid-19 crisis?
All this optimism around the supply of our small batch of tanks with unique logistic issues along with the Leopards (it could be a wait for the Abrams) puzzles me.
The extreme pressure for more tanks coming out of Kiev must surely imply that their existing stocks are depleted after starting the war with probably the best part of 2000 tanks and subsequently receiving several 100s more from former Soviet Union states last year.
So the my question is what happened to all those tanks and secondly why will perhaps 100 to 200 western tanks be yet another game changer?
I thought we were up to 330 or so.
Tanks?
ummm…..Johninmk,
Do you remember that conversation we had a couple weeks ago about hypersonic weapons and who really was in the lead?
https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2023-01-30
That’s an air breathing hypersonic design by the way. This one from Lockheed Martin. Completely different from the last successful test which was a Raytheon design and again different from the Northrop Grumman weapon. Russia will never catch up.
I do and I’ve spotted that and it looks impressive.
That may Western tanks are going to be extremely effective at kicking the door down on select parts of the Russian’s lines, that is obvious and shouldn’t need explaining. People like you seem to think that c.200 Western tanks will be spread evenly across the entire front.
They Ukrainians clearly need armour for maneuver warfare once the weather turns. The hundreds of tanks they have captured from the fascists won’t hurt either, while presumably they have a lot of vehicles undergoing much needed deferred maintenance after a year of war
Even before the donation of western tanks, Ukraine currently has
• more tanks than it started the war with
• more tanks than Russia has in theatre
So just as your prediction of an attack on Odesa from Kherson (just before the Russian retreat from Kherson) was hilariously wrong, so is your deduction about Ukrainian tank strength.
Ukraine has quantity, adding Western MBTs add quality to this too. We’ve seen in previous wars how western MBTs tear though armoured brigades with Soviet-era tanks barely getting their paintwork scratched.
My personal Johnski favourite was Moskva has had a small self inflicted fire and has returned to port. That was a classic from a Putinbot when reality was she was a new artificial reef in the black sea.
That one made me laugh so much I still need to go to the loo every time I think about it.
It’s funny coincidence that you mention the loo, because diarrhoea is what comes to my mind every time I see one of JohnInMosKva’s posts…
I will quote back to you your words from one of your posts yesterday, which seem to be entirely relevant.
“Clearly debating is not your strong point, hence the decent into ad hominem attacks – which of course is always a sign you know you’ve lost.”
I won’t lower myself to debate with someone who thinks raping women and children is a valid tactic of war. Pointing out what a lowlife you are is not intended to debate, it’s an observation.
JohninMK (is it John in Magnitogorsk, not Milton Keynes) He must lap up those nightly talk shows that tell the Russian population that two strikes will sink the UK, and this time we will drive to the Atlantic with the lightest kick on the “Western Doors”. Go on John, you can tell us.
We are just a minor player that doesn’t warrant much comment. They regard only the US that matters as, along with the the rest of the World, they regard the West as being controlled financially by the US. Mind you Germany has generated a lot for the obvious reason of German tanks attacking Russians again.
Can you provide any evidence at all on your claims in the first para? Yes I, along with many others, got Russia’s plans wrong then and many other times. You need to get up to speed on just what kind of a war is being fought. You seem to be imagining that this one is like others in the past, it isn’t. It doesn’t matter which side they are on, tanks and other armour can’t “tear through” anything any more. Even with low airpower risk, there is too much out there watching and hunting them. This is an artillery/ATGM/drone, not… Read more »
Yes but I’m not providing them to an apologist for rape and cold blooded murder if civilians. Hilarious you think I need to get “up to speed on just what kind of a war is being fought” yet you admit that you keep getting Russia’s plans wrong! You’re obviously up to speed but going in the wrong durection 🤣 If tanks and armour as so useless, why did Russia base its entire invasion of Ukraine on using them? Only later to revert to WW1 style artillery bombardment when their tanks were massacred by their idiotic tactics, and the use of… Read more »
John’s fishing again ! He’s trying to goad someone who might have some up to date knowledge of western tanks to spill something . Tricky sort is our Johnny boy !!
I doubt that Russia needs information from anyone as to how many tanks Ukraine has left.
Your knowledge of military SOPs both at strategic and tactical level continues to be as limited and vague, as your previous 12 months of propaganda predictions. Give yourself a tea break troll farm boy!
If you have to ask that question, then you’ll never know. Which isn’t really surprising in your case.
You do seem very exorcised over the NATO standard MBT’s being supplied to Ukraine, you’ve been very busy with your deflection and misinformation. Intimidated by the probability of more Ukrainian advances??
JIMK wrote: “”All this optimism around the supply of our small batch of tanks with unique logistic issues along with the Leopards (it could be a wait for the Abrams) puzzles me.”” Not only does the supply of heavy armour to the Ukrainians afford the ability to surpass the capabilities of Russian armour, but it sends the message to the Ukraine, that they are not alone. JIMK wrote: The extreme pressure for more tanks coming out of Kiev must surely imply that their existing stocks are depleted after starting the war with probably the best part of 2000 tanks and… Read more »
Thanks Farouk. I suspect that the last thing that Ukraine thinks is that they are alone. The continuing flood of money and equipment should prove that. But I’m not sure why there is such a strong view here that a brand new, totally updated T-90M is surpassed by the old Challengers and Leopards. Or that the T-90M and the T-72B3 (2022) are in any way exactly the same as Ukrainian vehicles. Probably the best tank there, a near equal to the T-90M is the Ukrainian T-84BM Oplot that was better than the T-64BM2 Bulat. https://i.servimg.com/u/f12/20/35/00/30/t-8410.jpg As to ATGM, the Kornet… Read more »
JIMK wrote: “”But I’m not sure why there is such a strong view here that a brand new, totally updated T-90M is surpassed by the old Challengers and Leopards. “” What a lot of people (especially the media and social media wonks) fail to recognise is the huge disparity between Russian and Western MBTs. (Note the Chally 2 is not old, out of the 5 NATO tanks it is the youngest brought into service in 1998) As mentioned before the Russians under Khrushchev ended their love affair with heavy tanks (IS2-IS10) The T54/55 was seen as medium tank and the T62… Read more »
As the saying goes…a picture is worth a thousand words 👍
Couldn’t of put it better my self.
Perun new utube video is about Russian strengths and capabilities in Ukraine. Very insightful
https://youtu.be/V9xQf8LQgCU
You are simply playing to his wishes for snippets of information that might be useful. I’d simply say…lets see my dear Johnski…lets see if your vaulted T90 stands a cat in hells chance when the sabot rounds start flying.
However, I love Farouk’s knowledge. So interesting and detailed.
With regards to explosive reactive armour (ERA). Newer armour piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) or Fin for short. The dart part of the sabot, has become in effect a two piece dart. Where the shorter first section of the dart is sacrificial and has been designed to specifically activate the tank’s ERA. Thereby leaving the second longer part of the dart an unimpeded view of the tank’s armour. The majority of Russian/Soviet T-series tanks have become overly reliant on ERA. Which is a cheap and lower weight option of armour to defend the tank. However, once this is gone… Read more »
JIMK wrote: ”As to ATGM, the Kornet seems to have been pretty effective against both Leopards (Syria) and Abrams (Yemen)” The Leo 2s which Turkey lost at the battle of Al Bab was primarily due to poor tactics (Due to the purges the dictator for life carried out on the military ) Also the Leopard 2s Turkey uses are the A4 which was built between 1985 and 1992. It main remit was to face the masses of the Warsaw pact tank armies, and so its main armour is at the front (Hence the slab front) with weaker armour at the… Read more »
JIMK wrote: “but also as the Russians continue to be not trying to move forward much, seemingly preferring to let the UA come to them. The best example probably being Bakhmut which is slowly being out flanked..” To be fair, the bunfight around Bakhmut is nothing to write home about from the Russian POV.. The entire area in front of the city is flat and Moscow has been at the coalface there since the 1st of August 2022. That is 6 Months. Allow me to put that into perspective, Russia with a huge advantage in men, and equipment over the… Read more »
As I said, it seems that their objective is to do maximum damage to the UA rather than take territory.
Just in case you haven’t seen this
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FnylgBpaQAIaFS-?format=jpg&name=small
As you usually say, jibber jabber nonsense which is always ripped to shreds by Farouk……and to which you ignore.
You know everytime you say thanks to someone I get the nasty feeling you think they have divulged some info useful to putins rabble!
Chortle. What a fool. The facts are undeniable Chally 2 has faced Russian tanks before and destroyed hundreds of them for zero loss. T90 isn’t available in huge numbers but isn’t going to prove a problem. Getting hit by a sabot round from upto 5 miles away will lead to the Russian tanks…your tanks…cooking up. Lets see if you think the T90 thoroughly modern Ruskie tank is as good as you say shall we Johnski. Answers on a postcard from the Kremlin coming soon. Russia my dear Johnski is like a spoilt brat, they want and expect everything to go… Read more »
The issue you have to face is that this war is not like previous wars. In particular it is, as I have said, very unlikely that there will be tank on tank battles other than in very low numbers. The tank is up against ATGM as its main enemy.
You don’t seem to have much of a feel for tank tactics, John. The super heavy Challengers will be used much as knuckle dusters to the face in a bar brawl. The lighter Ukranian tanks, combined with infantry, will then swarm over the downed body and force a breakthrough. The local Russian infantry will then feel themselves flanked, and run.
Spot on John, I don’t and you are right, it will, to a great extent, be down to tactics. For Ukraine’s sake I hope you are correct. In their favour is that it is estimated that there are a greater proportion of tank crews still surviving compared to say infantry (so a lower proportion ob conscripts) and some of those are now here in the UK for intensive training.
Got what you were mooching for yet John? I’d make a guess that you have , well done!
One of the reasons Ukraine pushed for tanks so hard is once they are supplied it allows the push to move onto more sought after weapons.
OMG gutted I missed this conversation, a few days late not much to chat about, but, what garbage your lips flap. Quality western tanks, added to the quality crews with the most tank experience of any nation since WW2, equals absolute disaster and death for your fav scumbag invaders from Nazi Russia. You bump your gums with so much desperate propaganda and nonsense you have been for quite some time, and continue to be, the site joke. Come on troll farm boy, you and esteban are the sad and desperate losers we love to laugh at, cheers.
I do wish the f-ing idiots at the MOD would stop with the media stories like this and concentrate on their full time job
I have no problem here, keeps the pressure on the other nations donating tanks to get the training done asap.
The MOD is really on top of its press release game The rest of their job not so much.
Yaaaaaaaawn ah diddums.
On Sky News today it seems the US General going public about the state of the UK armed forces especially the army has struck an accord more than any of our general staff have. Probably because they seem to only go public about the perilous state of our armed forces after they have retired and left their politically sensitive gravy train posts. Seems BW has made it clear to Sunak and Hunt/ bean counters at the treasury that the revision of the integrated defence review is going to mean the Army especially is going to need to be sorted out.… Read more »