More British troops to be sent to Afghanistan

So daveyB, interesting observation. Why are the taleban more effective than ANA then? They don’t need NATO advisors. Why is they stand and fight but the ANA don’t? They are from the same stock?

They have absolute belief in a book written thousands of years ago and a way of life they want back from the dark ages and all the fruits it brings.

Firm belief James highlights below and for many a firm fear of probable repercussions for them and family if they don’t follow the instructions of the Taliban leaders.

It may be something as simple as Darwinism. In the past 40 years they have been fighting the Russians and then the Western forces. The Taliban came from factions within the Mujahideen that fought Russia. They had competent leaders. Come 2001 they got pushed out of the country and were sheltered by sympathizers in Pakistan. They were also allowed into Iran.

From 2002 up to 2015 after being rearmed by both Pakistan and Iran they took the fight back to the Western forces. Lots of Taliban were killed, significantly more than Western forces. I can’t remember exactly the figures but it was something like for every solder we lost they lost 10 or 12 if not more. Those that survived gained the knowledge of how to operate against these forces and became leaders.

The problem we faced was that during the winter, the Taliban would en masse go into Pakistan. Here they would regroup, pick new leaders and gain new recruits from the religious schools and local populace. It was in NE Pakistan were they would train. Come spring they’d re-enter Afghanistan and the cycle would repeat. The majority of Afghanis from towns and cities did not join the Taliban. It was from the farming communities that they came. Whereas a good majority of the ANA came from the towns and cities. It was these poor sods from the farming communities and “kids” from Pakistan who hadn’t received much training that made up most of the casualties.

One other thing that isn’t often reported, is that a lot of the Taliban when in a fight, were high on locally made amphetamines, much like speed. You’ll be amazed at how many rounds it takes to put someone down who’s got religion and is high on speed.

One of the key roles for our SF were to target the leaders. We got to be very good at it. Up to 2015 the Taliban were pretty much kept in check. Once they got into Pakistan they were safe. We new full well where the majority of them went, but they were protected. There were occasions where they over stepped the mark and the Pakistanis would allow a drone strike.

From what I’ve heard there are either ANA fighting to the last man, an armistice deal has been struck or they’ve simply melted away. When Trump did the behind the scenes deal with the Taliban and Biden pulled the rug out, it sent a message to both the then Government and Taliban. It emboldened the Taliban but also gave notice to the Government that the US was giving up on them.

I’m not making excuses for the ANA, as I’m not there so can’t make a firm comment on what went so terribly wrong. I just know the lads I worked with, wouldn’t have given up that easily!

The Taliban do not have to follow rules. They are brutal and many are forced to fight or risk their family being killed. It is amazing what humans are capable of if desperate. It is also far easier to wage gorilla warfare and terror attacks with a few moderately trained people with little equipment. Just look at the fact that all the combined might of the Western armies had great difficulty dealing with the Taliban. How on earth did we ever think the ANA could do anything without our support?

One person put it like this. “It is like taking our elite GB cycling team to the Olympics and then taking their bikes back with us”.

We have absolutely let the Afghan people down in the worst way possible…

Also don’t forget, the ANA had their supporting equipment and heavy air support taken away from them recently.

Actions speak louder than words. When it came to defending their country and their citizens the ANA failed miserably. Their latest surrender without firing at shot this past week proves it. NATO could train them for 100 more years it wouldn’t matter.
The Afghan government is also to blame. They make Western politicians look honorable. The entire system is designed to fail. And the ones that suffer the most are the innocent civilians that just want a better life for their families.

If you are faced with being overrun by crazed taliban fighters and the horrors that come with that (I have heard stories of them skinning people alive). I am sure most of us would melt into the background if that was an option. Our army was pushed back and had to retreat lots of times against the Taliban. The difference was that we had overwhelming force to protect certain areas that were safe to fall back to. The problem the ANA had was that we had took away significant equipment (Drones, Close air support, armour etc) and left them with some guns and some bullets. They also faced the issue that there was no where to pull back to… The areas that should be safe were also being overrun.

You suggest the whole ANA surrendered without firing a shot. I understand it was only a few hundred who deserted.

That, and haven’t they also not been paid in months?

“The problem they have is the lack of confidence in their abilities”.
This is the nub of the problem. It’s a question of faith; in yourself, in your officers, in your mates, in your government, in your President. Zero on all counts.
Compare with the average Taliban fighter; young and a member of a revivalist Sunni Islam sect with inclusive pan tribal political beliefs dating back to the Indian mutiny ( aka war of independence). The nearest western parallel might be Christian evangelical Corbynistas with AK47s.

I’m a Christian Evangelical, I don’t think one of us are Corbynistas given we’re usually very pro-Israel and he was a raging anti-semite. Plus, I just cannot conceive of a situation where I’d take up an AK-47 except to defend our country or my family or throw off a totalitarian state, pretty much the same as most people I think.

The New Testament is clear that Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world – “If it were, my servants would fight [for me]”.

There’s not one jot of support for a militarised Christian church in the NT. I’m pretty mainstream and I think most of us would argue it is ok for a Christian to be a soldier, to serve the country, fight oppression: sometimes doing the least evil is the only course of action we have.

Perhaps 800 yrs ago, when the church was the state and politics = theology then religious, military orders could be justified but where the church doesn’t have a political imperative to protect the people militarily there’s no Biblical justification.

One needs to understand Islamic jurisprudence is a world away from Christian theology. Christianity, as defined in the NT and by Jesus’ actions just don’t harmonise easily with political institutions. That’s not to say one cannot have Christian inspired institutions. For instance Nye Bevan saw the founding of the NHS as a distinctly Christian act. But in the NT there’s just no law for governing a society or rules for politics. There is personal and interpersonal ethics, morality and peace with God through Jesus the Son. National politics and the structuring of society just wasn’t on Jesus’ agenda.
Islamic thought is quite different, it doesn’t differentiate between politics and theology – they are one and the same hence Sharia. The closest thing to Sharia in the Bible is the civil and ceremonial laws pertaining to the ancient kingdom of Israel and temple worship. That ended in AD70 when Rome sacked Jerusalem. Moreover, Jesus deliberately opened the faith up from national Israel to global Christianity, the latter being a graft of the former – taking the spiritual promises of God to the whole world whilst leaving the promises pertaining to the land to the Hebrews (thus pro-Israel beliefs).

I think the closest Western parallel to the Taliban would have to be the middle ages’ Crusader, military orders as described previously and in the end, even they got banned by the Pope.

Whoa! Just trying to point out how difficult it is to map what’s happening to our western world. 🙂

Well said sir.

I suppose that’s the point Davey, if they can’t get their shit together and run their own operations after 20 years and billions spent, they are never going to and we can’t stay holding hands forever…

It’s all academic now, it’s a matter for historians to debate

You have forgotten again, the Afghans had an air force, but could only equipped it with light aircraft inc. A-29 Tucano.

If you remove the foundations of any building, it will fall down!

Indeed they did Meirion, the A29, an excellent counter insurgency and light strike asset.

I’m not really following your thread, are you advocating we should have stayed in Afghanistan forever, another 5, 10 years?

What would your exit strategy have been?

Genuinely interested, it’s always interesting to hear different possibilities.

My exit strategy John, would of been to keep a token force in Afghanistan of mainly air support forces and for guarding green zone etc.to be reviewed and debated every 3 years with performance targets set for the Afghan Gov. which incl. aid amounts.

It’s a sensible alternative Meirion, I have to say.

In a different reality, your main problem would have been convincing the powers that be to sign off on billions in aid for years to come.

Those in the corridors of power are probably secretly glad they no longer have to fund Afghanistan.

It might be putting 2×2 together and coming up with 5 here, but I think a backroom deal with the Taliban was reached by the US government regarding their eventual return to power and the west leaving them alone, providing they kept terrorism out of the country… Possibly with US play for mineral rights too, down the line…

I think they just didn’t expect it to happen overnight..

Politicians have zero honour, that’s for sure.

the A29 and the russian gunships they have are more than capable of devestating the taliban if the ANA had pushed to keep them out of urban areas. Could have smashed them but Taliban knew that and pushed into urban areas

It looks like the ANA has manly desovled with a section reforming in the North.

Isn’t the proof of the pudding in the eating. Clearly if the ANA were brave, skilled and cared for their country as well as women and children wouldn’t they stand and fight? Life is cheap in Afghanistan as they don’t value it in the same way we do. Money is the only mantra they know as well as the Koran. The ANA forces collapsed in days and this old nugget about lack of air support doesn’t hold water either. ANA had 300,000 soldiers and the Taliban had a maximum of 75,000 and the Taliban had no air support either. Numerical superiority (especially in the Kabul) was there but they collapsed quicker than the French against the Germans in WW2. I think they just have more allegiance to their local tribes than any nascent nation state and were happy to take the dollars and Sterling of the Americans and British. The sad fact that many British military personnel are coming to is their role in Afghanistan was largely for nothing. It’s a difficult thing for a soldier to accept (so I sympathize with you) when they have become disabled or their friends have died for nothing but that is the stark truth and something you will have to accept. If you want someone to blame then blame Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling. They are the ones than sent troops in to support the US. In truth we should have gone in taken out AQ and OBL and got out (don’t forget OBL and AQ were based in Pakistan and not just in the cave complexes of Tora-Bora). I find it odd that the American and British government didn’t understand that their so-called allies (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Qatar) were working against us funding the Taliban for their own political ends. Better to punish both Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Qatar by sanctions so they know not to do that in the future but we still get into bed with this evil trio of countries. Just accept the country is a graveyard of Empires and it should have a sign “leave well alone”. You think the Chinese will make the same mistake – not a chance as they aren’t stupid and they want to keep their economic and military hegemony for bigger things like Taiwan, South Korea and Japan. I think Biden has just saved America both economically and militarily by withdrawing and it was a very brave decision by him to announce the withdrawal. The US and Britain were being economically and militarily bled dry by our enemies like Russia and China just like when we bled the Soviet union dry when they went into Afghanistan. Read about the first, second and third Anglo-Afghan wars and you’ll understand our British forefathers were tactically much more astute than us. They went in massively punished the Afghans for transgressions in the North west frontier region of British India and then forced them to sign treaties and then withdrew to the relative safety of British India. Our generals in those days were multilingual in native tongues (often 5-6 languages) and battle hardened as extremely well educated in tactical warfare and colonial wars – the second and third Anglo-Afghan conflicts were massive British victories as they learnt the lesson never to stay in Afghanistan after the initial military incursions. Learn this lesson and learn this well.

The British in the 19th century knew the Afghans for what they were – hardy, brave but also rapacious, cunning and duplicitious.Trusting them was never an option. One British officer of the time remarked’ I’d be surprised if anyone thought an Afghan’s word is worth anything. Their loyalty belongs to family clan tribe etc but even then they betray their neighbours over feuds or envy. Years sgo we treated them as they derserved not showered them with money.

You seem to forget that we also tricked and conned them too. We were not far off as untrustworthy as they were. We would offer to protect them, then we would get them to fight with us and then leave them to their fate.

Rubbish! We supported them well with pay, equipment and training. They could have easily put up a decent fight. They didn’t. This hand wringing that the West betrayed them is complete utter tosh. Our mistake was in thinking we could turn Afghanistan into a liberal democratic state – history shows A-stan for what it is.

you got that right, the west’s error is thinking we would turn them into a modern western country with democracy. most of the uneducated don’t even know what it means. Iraq was a fairly advanced state before but afghanistan????

the Afghan airforce had 20 x A29 attack planes, 8x mil 24 gunships and 68 x light attack “little birds” with out western airpower. US and UK supplied them with large amounts of training and spares and up till last week were helping on ground. If the ANA had done there part thats a damned big hammer to drop on 75000 taliban

Note the German hypocrisy on politico eu currently. Germany is complaing that the US hasn’t done enough. As they let the US, UK do the fighting and dying they should keep their ****** mouths shut!

You couldn’t make it up mate…..

Unfortunately the Andrew avatar does Not realize this!

Any evidence of this as everything ive read says Macron was the one who both suggested it and was/is pushing for it?

Do you have a source for that? The Taliban representative in Doha just interviewed on Sky says their policy is to provide girls education up to and including further education and to allow women to hold down jobs.

And at the same time female Students are being turned away from university and families have been ordered to hand over their daughters so that they can be married off to Taliban fighters.

Notwithstanding the agreement there is always a possibility of a breakdown in the Taliban communications and command structure and a rogue soldier taking independent action so surveillance drones and a couple of Apaches are a wise precaution. So far things are going ok I believe.

True. The risk is the tailban didn’t expect to be in control of the city so fast and have yet to group up for an attack on the airport. I just hope not.

The bottom line is that the Afghan people have the right to self determination like anyone else and their choice of cultural values. We have tried to impose by a combination of military force and bribery a hybrid culture of western secularism which incorporates retained elements of the influence of the tribal war lords. I would argue that most of the excesses attributed to the Taliban and Islam ought to be attributed to that tribal feudal culture. The Afghans have rejected our model of society. We need to get over it. The default legal system will be Sharia ( basically the 10 commandments). The Taliban have said they will allow the practice of minority faiths and will not allow Al Quaida terrorist cells to operate. When you deal with people you need to deal with them where they are not where you think they ought to be. Biden and the US have accorded the Taliban respect by negotiating a deal. One of the key attributes of an Islamic mindset is that you respect agreements.

I am not sure the Afghan people have chosen the Taliban as their leaders… I rarely see people trying to cling to aircraft after a UK election…

They were not given the choice. They had not told the US and UK to pull out, in fact they had asked them to stay. We gave them zero choice in the matter and left them to the hands of a brutal regime focused on ruling by fear and terror. The excesses of the Taliban are partly rooted in their extreme version of Islam and also their desire to rule by terror. The tribal issues are where things get complex and in fighting among to Taliban erupts.

I am sure if they were able to elect a leadership, they would not elect the Taliban under a fair election…

The sad thing is that many of the Afghan people in the cities have never known Taliban oppression and have grown up entirely under a much more free and equal society. All they have known is an Afghanistan that was moving forward and improving (though slowly). They had hope for their future now they have nightmares… And that is our fault.

Its not ‘our fault’. There is no need for a guilt trip. People are panicking in anticipation an adversarial retribution tribal culture which has been the norm for centuries but which has been routed and disowned by the Taliban. The Afghan people are happy to get rid of a western inspired top down elite motivated by money and have it replaced by an ordered society where running your business and family life can happen in peace.
The Taliban have their roots as a revivalist Islamic movement and intends to follow Islam properly, not as appropriated by ruling tribal lords for their own ends.
Rather than swallow the Sky News abbreviated narrative I am mugging up on the rights of women in Islam.

https://islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php

Sorry, I did not realise I was speaking with the Taliban leader…

The Afghan people did not make a choice to reject the Western presence in their country and instead invite the Taliban in! There was no election, no discussion with the people and no discussion from Western Forces. One day the ANA turned up at a base to find the Americans had left overnight!

The Taliban have not turned a new leaf. There are reports from all over Afghanistan of atrocities being committed on their march through the country. The Taliban have their roots in oppression. Remember it was the Taliban who shot Malala Yousafzai for simply daring to go to school. They are extremists and rule through terror. They have been forcing people to fight for them against their will and have been raping women and taking them against their will in order to be married off as Taliban Baby making machines.

So yes it is our fault we left and took the command structure and military support with us. It is our fault that people felt desperate enough to try to cling to the outside of aircraft.

😂😂😂 I’ll take the leadership compliment.
Biden’s decision is a challenge for everyone to snap out of paranoia mode and start treating other people, Muslims, including the Taliban, with respect as human beings.
Then everything works. We didn’t sell Typhoons to Saudi Arabia by telling them to give their women more freedoms.

Feel free to take it as a compliment if you support raping children and oppressing women, while brutally murdering opposition.

I for one respect people of all religions and cultures. I do not respect rapist and murderers though… Call me traditional…

We should not have sold typhoons to Saudi Arabia, not until they fix their human rights issues.

O come on. I don’t believe the Taliban or Islam supports the raping of children or murder. Its not fair to tarnish the whole of a group with the actions of individuals. ‘Oppression’ of women is a culturally relative concept more to do with feudalism than Islam, but I do agree does not allow women the same licence as they enjoy in a secular west.
We agree on the arms trade but reality is that money talks.

No guilt trip here. Tho our political leaders who came up with the develop and democratise A-stan strategy should be going thru intense existential anguish ( one hopes) for the best part of 20 years of idiocy.

Indeed. It was perfectly justifiable self defence to go into Afghanistan to get Osmama and weaken Al Queda. And since the country of war lords essentially had no one leader with whom you could deal and who had the control to police Al Queda it seemed a good idea at the to use money and troops to build a country. But national identity always comes from within by fighting an invader. Psychologists tell us you recognize yourself by recognizing who you are not. England came into being by coalescing to beat the Danes, who were allowed to stay if they accepted Christianity. Scotland too. Foreigners will be welcomed in the new Afghanistan if they accept local rules….when in Rome….

Personally I was hoping a lot of Guardianista’s would be clinging to outbound UK aircraft after Brexit. Sadly it didn’t happen…..

Congratulations on getting this politics post past the mods😉

Taliban did it properly, I was under the impression the UK would morph into North Korea the day after Brexit, still no signs of that promise happening.

Read their special forces have got priority on US and UK airlift. Apparently the Taliban aren’t happy with them for doing most of the fighting.

Who knows? Quite rightly, a lot of it is being kept hush-hush aright now. Media outlets had images of troops arriving on at least one C17 as well. I think this is a case of using any and every available air asset to move troops/non-combatants/equipment. SF guaranteed to be there in some capacity.

Ok – now I get it.

Thnx for the context.

I think that’s probably the reality. A half squadron 22 deployment to lead the way and ride shotgun, probably also including an intelligence cell to meet up with Taliban leadership on the ground, to negotiate the evacuation agreement and an effective ceasefire.

Coordinating with US Spec ops too.

I shouldn’t be surprised if there isn’t a fall back plan involving remote temporary bases out in the Afghan boondocks, able to bring in firepower and Chinooks, if this all turns to shit…

Was first reported as 4 C17, 1 Atlas, 1 Herc.

Plus the 3 Voyager on the UK leg.

Sarcasm ? Surely ? Hopefully ?

Not in the least. If you want to treat people respectfully you have to deal with them where they are not where you would like them to be. You also have to be of practical help if you want to gain their trust. Then they might be open to more ideas. You don’t just waltz in with a western style know it all government and army and say ‘here’s one I put in the oven earlier’. I see the Taliban victory as an Islamic analogue of the French revolution. The Afghans have ditched feudalism but instead of liberty, equality, fraternity and the Napoleonic code they have Islam. At least their presidents are unlikely to be serial philanderers.

We’ll agree to disagree. You’ve every right to express your opinion. That’s western democracy.

You believe the taliban? OMG

You have to start by giving them the benefit of the doubt if you want peace. No progress is possible without trust. It’s about building a relationship now.

Building a relationship by handing over billions in cash on top of the money they will be creaming off the drugs trade? Are you mad?

What exactly will they do with all this money, spread it equally between all civilians or will some people higher up be keeping a larger chunk? Ah yes the latter not so different to the corrupt western democracies you like to mention hey.

I don’t think I said anything about giving them lots of money, although since we are not funding troops we might have some to spare. This is a new situation for all concerned. We should be providing practical humanitarian and industrial aid. The Chinese are planning to reopen their copper mine. We just need to be sensitive to local rules. A training school for nurses would be good; a fashion house not such a good idea perhaps. This thing about the role of women in Islam is a spectrum. There are lots of Muslim women fighting for the Kurds for example. Once they get out a bit more I’m hoping the Taliban will mellow.

If the Taliban have mellowed I will eat my socks, they are giving it a good go in the press of being a more welcoming group so far but the stories emerging from within the country say very differently.

The remnants of ISIS will be over the moon a new caliphate has been created and no doubt be moving over, along with numerous other nut jobs from around the planet.

Humanitarian aid is going to be needed unless they actually do a remotely sensible job of running the economy but it must be actual aid and not money that is handed over.

Aid organisations keep accounts. Your donations and government additions go to those who need help.
Well, it’s true that terrorist groups will find it easier to hide in Afghanistan . It’s a big country with remote geography and being Muslim easier to blend in. That said the Taliban will bring order to chaos and a consistent system of justice that the people understand and notwithstanding females having to dress modestly, accept.
Mellowing is likely to be a patchy affair. The test will be how they respond to street protests by women. I understand the Taliban and UK troops are conducting joint patrols to manage the evacuation queues. Brave new world?

They will bring order to the chaos, you mean the chaos they have brought themselves?

Ah justice, yes forgot about that eye for an eye policy they have.

Im sure the public floggings, stoning to death and mutilation of limbs all decided in a fair legal hearing of course will bring the chaos they have bestowed upon the country under control straight away.

Not a brave new world at all, going straight back to the dark ages and yes the people who dont wish to succumb to this will have to be very brave indeed.

The present chaos is a result of Trump’s ‘America first’ policy; basically selfishness. I suspect the delay in implementing the withdrawal agreement signed by the US has arisen because the Biden administration has been subjected to pressure to renege on the deal; to stay in Afghanistan. Biden was screwed either way.
We are where we are. The press are reporting the UNs concern about the need for immediate large scale aid to avoid a humanitarian crisis; food, medical supplies, shelter.
Whatever the Americans choose to do we should take a diplomatic and military lead with France, Germany and other European nations and offer the new Afghan government the use of our planes to ferry in aid and offer our troops expertise in logistics to deliver it. The right thing to do now is to act with generosity not animosity.

Acting in anyway is purely going to be down to the Taliban, they may and probably dont want interference from the outside as the more outsiders in the country the more information about what is going on will spread out.

Eu nations are in no way going to want to take a lead in this as it will involve military intervention which will take the EU a decade to decide on.

O.k trump did the opposite of Obama in ending the campaign but what was the US supposed to do, continue policing the country indefinitely pouring more cash, assets and lives into the place? It was never going to go on forever and realistically could not go on forever.

We could argue a better case that the chaos is more the fault of Bush by invading the place originally than Trump.

Actually agree the Taliban won’t consider foreign troops at all. I just hope aid workers are welcomed. We are where we are…

 😂  Yeah, getting it out of your system on the internet should put the fear of God (the white one with the beard, not the brown one that you can’t draw) up them. One hundred percent, here is the place to get it all sorted.

Did you even read the posts or just default rant about the evil ‘Muzzis’ ?

For the record, I’m not happy about how this has panned out but being a big boy I’ll try not to get too worked up over something that I have no control over. Apart from engaging on online debate with angry adolescents.

Hi D32, I wasn’t thinking of the helos taking people all the way out of the country, more for shuttling between the embassy (and wherever else we have people) and MK airport. You’re right, trying to actually get anywhere safe out of the country in a chopper would be rather too ambitious!

Sorry mate, mis read your post.

No worries, easily enough done!

I hope so, wouldn’t want to be driving Kabul’s streets with Taliban everywhere…