The Royal Navy seeks to maintain a certified under-ice operational capability centred on its submarine force as competition in the Arctic grows, according to a written response from the Ministry of Defence.
Responding to a series of parliamentary questions from Conservative MP James Cartlidge, Defence Minister Al Carns said the capability has historically been provided by the Royal Navy’s nuclear-powered submarines and is being continued through the Astute-class fleet.
Carns said: “The Royal Navy (RN) has maintained an under-ice capability centred on the Submarine Service through Swiftsure and Trafalgar class submarines and is certifying the new Astute Class to uphold this capability.”
The minister also confirmed that the most recent Arctic Ice Exercise conducted by a Royal Navy submarine took place in 2018. “HMS Trenchant conducted the last Ice Exercise in 2018.”
When asked whether another such exercise is planned during the current Parliament, the Ministry of Defence declined to provide details of future submarine operations. Carns stated: “It is the longstanding policy of this Department not to comment on future submarine operations.”
The Government also linked the capability to the evolving strategic environment in the Arctic region. Carns noted that the Strategic Defence Review has identified the High North and Arctic as areas of increasing geopolitical competition.
Carns added that the Government is examining options to address this environment through the defence planning process. “The Strategic Defence Review highlighted the High North and Arctic as an increasing area of competition for the UK, and the Defence Investment Plan is considering a range of options to meet this threat.”
This is frankly amazing that no UK SSN has gone under the ice for 8 years. The Secrecy surrounding our Submarines should be lifted in large measure. The present arrangements show what happens when there can be no proper public scrutiny of aspects of the service. We should also know when Ambush will definitely be certified to return to operations. It should also be known what spare parts have been removed to prevent this happening. Inadequate though it is, we have 5-6 Submarines afloat. One is currently serviceable. I like that wording because it tells us what is really happening.
Why is it amazing that no UK SSN has operated under the ice for 8 years? It’s a dangerous environment to operate in, lots of noise to hinder your attempts to find/track stuff, and unless you have an active sonar on you run the risk of a potential collision with the submerged part of an iceberg (Tireless in 2003).
Anything goes wrong onboard whilst under the ice, limits your options to recover the situation (Tireless 2007) safely. Operating under the Ice is not like it is in the movies, its really f**king dangerous and we try to avoid it where possible.
Doesn’t mean we can’t or won’t go under it, it just adds several more layers of stress to the mission.
FYI this month is the aniversery of the loss of life of 2 submariners on Tireless while operating under the ice in Mar 2007.
Deep where you been? Have you been avoiding this site a bit like me? Thanks for the info on the 2 lads lost, RIP boys, and bet most people weren’t aware or had forget (like me). You submariners are a little mad that’s for sure, respect mate. Every time you go out on patrol it’s a real operation, every single time, like going into space but more dangerous!!! Mad, totally crackers 👍
Still here mate, I spend more time reading/browsing the articles these days. Tend to throw in the odd reply if I believe it adds context. Far too much hysteria posted by ‘knowledgeable ‘ types these days. Can’t be bothered to get into a slanging match either. Must be an age thing!
Agreed mate, me too! But in occasion I do get into a slanging match, I try not to, but it’s just the young and angry me still trying to burst out and educate the clowns who talk the talk but………you know the rest! all the best to you mate 👍
Thanks, I learned something there.
Deep, a SME sorely missed in here mate!
Very much so.
I’d had the same conversation with him myself a while back, seeing a much respected SME back after so long.
I still recall some troll arguing the toss with him about Subsurface ops some years ago not having a clue what his background was.
As with you, Respect, never in doubt from me.
Mate thank you but have you noticed on here, less SMEs and more bullshit angry posts! Why I stayed away a while, plus work commitments etc lol 👍
Yes, several new or newish posters. There are too many more interested in bashing Trump than talking UK military matters. Some I wonder if they know anything at all on the subject of our military. If they do, talk of it? You also have some who I think are foreign trolls out to demotivate. Bashing our own political class is fair game for me, as their behaviour directly affects our military.
But yes, several SMEjs are no longer here.
I’d support a blanket ban on all politics myself, but nobody abides by it so why should we with our opinions?
Don’t worry chaps, you can always count on me to steady the ship.
😁
@Deep32 – Great to hear from you.
Always appreciate your contributions.
Deep,
Excellent to note your participation in this discussion! Thought you might be willing to contribute re SSN training/ops. Assumed RN silent service would rehearse regularly for potential ops and conditions in the Barents Sea/Kola Peninsula region of the High North/Arctic AOR. Obviously, am mistaken … 🤔
Good bit of context.. people tend to forget a few things:
1) the sea is an eternal enemy, it will kill you if you disrespect it.
2) some parts of the ocean and conditions are not just dangerous if you disrespect it.. they are simply utterly lethal and if your knowledge or equipment fails, you will die and nobody can come and save you.
The fin isn’t ice capable.
Yup but you can soften the ice with the kettle – one thing an SSN isn’t short of is hot water!
2018. Pretty poor, isn’t it.
I thought that area was the Submarine Services playground.
It certainly used to be.
Talking of subs mate reports just come in a US sub has sunk an Iranian warship (not sure what type) with torpedoes well away from the conflict area! Any updates you know mate?
According to Osint videos and images, it was a Frigate, IRIS Dena
Not to mention a Corvette was also hit from the air I believe.
Pretty good day for the USN 👍
Edit: The Corvette was the IRIS Shahid Sayyad Shirazi
Bloody lovely
Thanks mate 👍
Read of that this afternoon mate, you must have missed it.
Sri Lankan coastguard picked up some survivors, was in the Indian Ocean apparently.
As Clunker says.
However, the US Sec for Defence is going all Hollywood again, saying first time a ships been sunk with a Torpedo from a Submarine since WW2.
And unless he’s only meaning the USN, in which case he should say, THAT honour falls to HMS Conquerer and the Royal Navy with Belgrano in 82.
☠️ V
Soz mate at work today, no phones/internet allowed, heard it driving home! Cheers for that, and yes the US getting carried away with trying to make history, that as you say was the RN 👍
Plus I believe a Pakistani sub during the 1970s and then the rumoured midget sub attack on a South Korean frigate this century.
Not that the Maga base will care.
I remember the South Korean sinking yes, forgot about that one 👍
My God listen to the statement that he said. You have internet yep, the s*** box Iranian frigate got blown in half… Sorrys for their families but my God. Could the UK Fanboys just stop a little bit?
Yes, the PNS Hangor in 1971.
Shows how peaceful the world has been since 1945. Only three submarine kills.
Not really.. many hundreds of vessels have been sunk in conflicts since WW2.. it’s just most have been sunk by mines or airattack… not many nations have military submarines and even then not many.. there are many many 10,000s of combat aircraft and a few hundred submarines.
I hope, re T31, that this might focus minds in the RN and MOD about the folly in having a warship without ASW capability and sonar patrolling seas in which adversary or hostile nations have submarines. Which is likely to be everywhere.
Agree, Posse, and a batch 2, please.
T45 is little better – it’s got no effective ASW capability
Post T23, we will ‘eventually’ have just 8 ships that can prosecute an underwater target
Yeah, although I think T45 did have some provision for sonar, although no doubt it’s well and truly capability gapped now.
A lot of stories about T45 are not true.
For instance at low speed they are actually pretty quiet. Contrary to the bag of spanner’s comments that relate to high speed.
With the new DGUs being able to drive them at low speeds these are above the waterline and are in enclosures so it is likely the T45 is pretty quiet at low speeds.
RN have been notably quiet about the status of any sonars since the upgrades to the T23 hull sets.
I find it hard to believe that they would have allowed the sonar branch to wither to such an extent they couldn’t crew the T45s as well as the T23s given they are getting 8 premium ASW frigates.
So I’m dubious about the constant statements, originating from two people, that the sonars are not manned or maintained.
He clearly said US submarine in his comments. I watched the video of the press conference.
Hi Ray.
If so, then that’s fair enough.
Hmmm. Just seen Hesgeth on BBC news at 10.
“First sinking of a ship by submarine since ww2”
Didn’t say US at all in that sentence.
Naval News’ quote of Hegseth was “The first sinking of an enemy ship by a torpedo since WW2”. Unless you assume that the US’ enemies are the only enemies possible it just isn’t true. Even if he was just referring to the US it’s typical of the American tendency to ignore any global events they aren’t involved in, which is I think what has prompted the mockery online.
First ship to be sunk by a submarine torpedo since the 2nd WW dont-cha know. Hegseth doesn’t live in a World outside of the United States and those it’s attacking at any given time it seems.
You are a bad man! 👍
To be fair I’m amazed Kegsbreath was sober long enough to read the brief! XD
He looks like an “AI” generated Image.
That Hair😱😂😂😂😂 Oh deary me !
Max Headroom, on dope.
Regardless, the brief was wrong. Any competent person in a military type department should have known this. He has a multitude of underlings that should have known better. Either they don’t know or he is ignoring advice. Neither is a good look.
Edit – or he “forgot” to ask. Either way – not a good look.
1) Was the brief was written by a competent person in a military type department or a MAGA appointee who just wants to stroke the American Ego.
2) Did Kegsbreath read the brief in full, digest it, and decide to ignore what the brief said or did he skim it and not grasp what it said and leave his aids unable to correct him since he’d already gone on record?
Playing under the ice was so last Cold War, so gapped as a capability to save a few quid.
That’s right. Just because its dangerous doesnt achieve anything except to be ultra careful. Jumping out of aeroplanes can be dangerous. Having our one and only Submarine class NOT certified for under ice deployment doesnt help. Its poor leadership not to have done it 8 years ago or whenever Astute entered servive. In fact we are surrendering the Arctic Ice field to the Russians etc. Its like not venturing into the oppositions penalty box in case you foul their Goalie. I respect anyone who serves in submarines because I recognise the danger; I knew people who served in the early days, one in K Class.
I would’ve thought that this is where the Nuclear Deterrent might lurk and transit the place to appear on the other side of the world…
I suppose if they have concerns about endurance, they should revisit Heston Blumenthal’s Sous Vide solution for Submarine Food. Hell, I reckon that could be worked on all RN Surface ships, including the smaller OPVs, really extend patrol duration for crew supplies without expanding storage space and structural changes.
Does it include tangerine filled Christmas puddings? Miss those.
I’d be amazed.
Why would one of our Bombers move closer to Red Force SSN out looking for them? Also, assume they cannot fire Trident through the icecap so would have to surface?
Ice Station Zebra Is your next film DM, It’s got Ice Breaking Subs and everything !
Alistair MacLean! Love that book, reread it last month, great story!
As would I. I imagine that the bombers roam around the mid-Atlantic, maybe occasionally heading further south generally staying in the Atlantic area.
We know the French patrol routes are similar to the British ones as well, after the…’shipping container’ incident.
Agreed, Leh. A huge area to lose yourself in at a sedate few knots, utterly silent, far from threats.
Seems like everyone else has done it for the last 60 years or so
As recent boats coming off patrol have graphically illustrated, the boats inhabit rather warm climes these days.
One reason I think, is because HMG was so tight with funds an SSN was needed for the TLAM mission in those Middle Eastern wars when an escort with TLAM would be a more visible deterrent.
And of course the Eddystone CESM & SIGINT fit that they carry for intelligence missions.
For me, our SSN belong in the GIUK and right into the Russians backyard following their SSN, as they are the primary ASW asset we have.
So Ambush is slowly regenerating, when will Audacious return? And even more importantly, what the hell os going on with Artful who commissioned 3 years after Ambush?
Someone should have gone to the Commons Defence Select Committee in better days and raised hell. Its seems underfunding of the Submarine branch has been going on for years and getting worse since the T Class progressively decommissioned. Openness and more questioning of our policies should be in order (some in secret). The Politicians have been underfunding defence to spend the money to win votes. Completely wrong.
The only working one is in Oz, not much is in there, every thing we build or buy is always getting fixed, modified/along side awaiting crew, or towed off to knackers yard.
The whole point of a submarine is that nobody knows it is there! Hence the secrecy bit!
Hegseth clearly does not have any knowledge of HMS Conqueror sinking General Belgrano in 1982.
Hats off to all submariners past and present.