Scottish government-owned Caledonian Maritime Assets Limited has named Turkish Firm ‘Cemre Marin Endustri’ as the preferred bidder for two new ferries.
The new ships will be the first major order by CMAL, which procures vessels for CalMac, since MV Glen Sannox and her unnamed sister ‘Hull 802’, which are still under construction at the Ferguson Marine shipyard on the Clyde.
https://twitter.com/geoallison/status/1502297532516474888
Part of the reason for this is the ongoing saga with the current inbuild ferries at Ferguson Marine, with delays also meaning the shipyard has missed out on work on new frigates. More about the frigates later.
Last month, the yard also announced a further delay to the ferries.
It is understood that anywhere between 400 and 900 cables are to be stripped out on ‘Hull 801’ and ‘Hull 802’, some more than 100 metres long. MV Glen Sannox (referred to as Hull 801) and the unnamed Hull 802 were supposed to be in service 2018 and 2019 respectively but are both are now hoped to enter service around 2023.
In update from Ferguson Marine on hulls 801 and 802, Tim Hair said:
“I regret to advise you that a problem has recently emerged with the build of 801 which I thought I should immediately bring to your attention. Each of the ferries under construction at Ferguson relies on a complex network of cables, requiring the installation of over 9800 individual cables with a total length of 243km. Approximately 15% of these (Legacy Cables) were installed on 801 under the control of Ferguson Marine Engineering Limited (FMEL) prior to its Administration in August 2019. None of the Legacy Cables were installed after the Scottish Government took control of the yard. It has recently emerged that a large proportion of the Legacy Cables have not been installed in line with the engineering information held by FMEL, leaving the free ends too short connect them to the equipment.”
Hair added:
“The legacy cables are predominantly in the machinery spaces and either supply equipment required to commission the vessel, or they run in cable trays which will also support new cables. Commissioning and further cable installation cannot take place until the legacy cables are corrected, delaying the overall project to deliver 801. There will inevitably be knock-on effects that will delay the schedule for 802. At present it is not possible to determine the impact on schedule and cost.”
Frigates?
Then Defence Secretary Michael Fallon visited the Ferguson Marine shipyard at Port Glasgow in 2017 where he remarked upon the opportunity for the Clyde yard to build the new frigates. Babcock, Thales, BMT, Harland & Wolff and Ferguson Marine had teamed up to form ‘Team 31’ a consortium to bid for the Type 31 Frigate.
Babcock CEO Archie Bethel said:
“Team 31 will allow Babcock and Thales to take forward the key lessons from the Aircraft Carrier Alliance and apply them in a new and highly capable team with Harland & Wolff, BMT and Ferguson Marine.”
While Babcock eventually won the bid, Ferguson Marine was no longer able to recieve any work due to issues at the yard. After Harland & Wolff and Ferguson Marine both collapsed into administration, Bethel told the Financial Times that both yards would still “get a chance to bid” but the company “would not risk the programme” subcontracting work out to them.
Mr Bethel later pointed out that Babcock had the capacity to do the work itself at Rosyth, meaning it didn’t have to rely on other yards and said that Babcock had won the bid on the basis of the work being done “100 per cent at Rosyth”, adding that with the exception of France’s Thales, “none of our members were risk-sharing”. He also said that the yards would be welcome to bid again should the issues be sorted and they “pass the same hurdles that any suppliers have to pass in terms of financial security and security of supply. Assuming that [any] new owners can do that, they will be included in the process.”
In short, issues at the Ferguson Marine yard with the ferries meant they could no longer take part in the Type 31 frigate programme alongside Babcock with the frigate now being built entirely at Rosyth. The delay to the ferries has cost the Port Glasgow shipyard work on new frigates.
The first steel for the troubled MV Glen Sannox was cut on the 7th April 2016 and Glen Sannox was launched on 21 November 2017 by the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon.
In 2018, new Cabinet Secretary for Transport Michael Matheson said it had been confirmed that the ship was to be delivered in June 2019, followed by two months of crew familiarisation and sea trials.
Further dispute over the contract overrun led to the shipyard going into administration and being nationalised by the Scottish Government. A report produced after nationalisation indicated that Glen Sannox should be handed over to CMAL in the last quarter of 2021 and that completing the two ferries is likely to increase the total cost to over £207M.
In 2020, Ferguson Marine contracted with International Contract Engineering, a marine design consultant, to revise the design and outfitting of Glen Sannox in advance of her eventual delivery.
You couldnt make this up in a political farce. SNP have selected a foreign firm to build ferries for a nationalised ferry company.
When the order could of and should have gone to a Scottish and therefore UK yard.
I wonder how they are going to spin this one?
I really hope UK government doesnt do the same for any RN/ RFA ships.
The sheer bloody nerve of the SNP, talk about two faced……
I’m sure it’s somehow Westminster’s fault too….
Of course it is Westminster’s fault…….everything is down to the dastardly plots dooon South……
William Wallace Will be turning in his 1/4 graves That’s a real vote winner for the SNP John
What UK or Scottish yard? Ferguson Marine are nowhere near delivering even the first in class MV Glen Sannox. There is no way any UK yard is going to be able to compete with a Turkish yard on price and delivery schedule for a new ferry! This is bread and butter work for CEMRE in Turkey, there is a reason why yards like this one and in Vietnam get these kinds of orders.
Agreed.
F wrote: There is no way any UK yard is going to be able to compete with a Turkish yard on price and delivery schedule for a new ferry! I can see where you are coming from, but in the long run it works out more expensive due to the fact not only are you sending work abroad which would employ Scottish people, but you are sending the message to others that if the SNP can’t be asked to use their own nationalised shipyard, then why should they and will take their custom elsewhere, resulting in the firm losing orders,… Read more »
Completely agree Farouk. This is the big problem, the only thing that is looked at is the bottom line unit cost but if it’s a foreign build the whole amount of money leaves the country. If it’s built into the U.K. all that money stays within our economy and is either paid in wages, profits, supply chain or infrastructure development. Especially with s government contract it ends up getting most of the money back in tax so it will probably cost half that of a foreign bid even if it’s more expensive on that basic bottom line. its like the… Read more »
I don’t agree that it would cost more in the long run, ship building is highly unlikely (I would like to say never but I am not a clairvoyant) to ever be profitable business in Scotland. The simple reality is there are other sectors that are far more profitable and practicable to expand in Scotland than ship building, for example Scotland has a rapidly growing and successful FinTech sector which has seen a 50% growth in the last two years. The financial services sector as a whole including FinTech is worth far more to the Scottish economy and supports far… Read more »
If thats the case then why does the SNP get all bent out off shape over frigate orders. Your saying not building ships means Scotland can focus on developing other industries. I don’t see the SNP begging Westminster to stop building ships and move it all south of the border. SNP condemned the international tender of the RFA ships when like you say its bread and butter for some foreign yards. Lastly why did the the SNP take over ferguson if it just cheaper and better to build overseas. Nothing the SNP says ir does on the topic of shipbuilding… Read more »
Politics of course silly!
Of course the SNP is going to get all bent out of shape over frigate orders…I wrote an article about that for this very website.
Exactly it’s politics. If U.K. government hadn’t constantly banged on about Scottish yards getting frigate orders it wouldn’t be used so much by the Scottish parties. Yes it’s not just the SNP going on about it. Labour, con, Lib Dem also like to give it mention
F wrote: Obsessing about trying to build a small number of ferries when you have yards that will never be competitive against those in places like Turkey and South East Asia is asinine. But its not just about the ferries is it, the Royal Navy is in a huge expansion mode and that would entail jobs landing in Scotland and if the Uks new fleet of ships come off as successful as we hope they will be, would not hat increase the chance of orders from other countries Investing in high tech sectors like financial services, IT, Medical and R&D… Read more »
I’m going to break this to you gently Farouk as you are clearly struggling to wrap your head around this… UK shipbuilding is a subsidised industry! Firstly whilst there has been expansion in military shipbuilding in Scotland that is in effect a subsidised industry. Without the MOD throwing in orders for warships those yards on the Clyde and Rosyth would simply not be competitive trying to win commercial orders. Even the export orders are for the IP and support of foreign build rather than build in the UK. The Ukrainian order is subsidised by UK loans before you bring that… Read more »
I don’t know, there seems to be growing rumblings of dissent over things seen as SNP vanity issues/policies as basic services continue to decline …
That’s OK, however, not everyone is suited to sitting in an office behind a computer. Otherwise, one could go hell for leather in expanding and attracting the service industry, yet, when things like current events come up, you have lost the industrial base, skills and know how.
You also forgot to mention that not too long ago, there was a bit of fake news going around about the UK government looking to France to build its warships. Now, anybody with more then a few brain cells knew that it wasn’t going to happen, but the Scottish nationalists had a bit of a hissy fit over it. Admittedly, it was pretty funny. Got to love those Nats and their double standards.
100% correct, even if it produces jobs for 200 skilled workers and 50 Apprentices, it all leads to somewhere. Apprentices leanering cookie cutter ship building progress onto more complex units. Otherwise we get builds that take as long as the T26.
A ship builder buys a paper, food, clothing, fuel, furniture, TV’s, tyres, cars and homes, all from the local community! They pay tax that can be reinvested into the local community for other projects etc etc etc.
The attitude should be if we can, build it. If we can, get everything.
It would seem “Not Exactly Tradesmen In Shipbuilding “Local to Shipyards” Hulls Located Within”:
It would seem that in A-Sort-of Past Life I had in Local Authority Employment and Cycling Clubs Youth Hostelling mainly at Weekends, a regular fellow cyclist was a (Now sadly Deceased) “MOD-Cleared” Electrician involved with Scott Lithgow’s Yard at Greenock / Port Glasgow area, and he lived Nowhere Near the Yard, being resident in Distant Lanarkshire
He lived a damn sight closer to the Yard than Turkey!
Exactly. No U.K. yard even made the shortlist. It’s cheaper and easier to get a foreign yard to do it. When that changes I will be first in the line to say it should be a U.K. yard.
I would want to see a cost benefit analysis for money spent in U.K. staying in the U.K. to see how much more expensive the contract can be before it has a negative effect but it can’t be another Ferguson marine ferry fiasco. Maybe the shipyards can get ready for the next ferry purchase as they do keep coming.
Just think how I feel, as a scotsman and a patriot. Unfortunately too many of my fellow Scot’s should not be let loose near a polling booth without adult supervision.
The SNP are running Scotland into the ground .
But they would rather send the money abroad than use a U.K. yard in England.
Sturgeons comment on not upping output from the North Sea made my blood boil .
I think that accusation could be levelled against many people in the UK given recent and not so recent voting result especially when the voting doesn’t go the way that you personally feel that it should.
Ona broad sense I accept democracy regardless of if I agree or disagree with the results. However this is the latest in a long list of disaster courtesy of the Scottish nationalist government. From education, too health , transport , trans gender rights, a tanking economy and the jewel in the crown, the ongoing Ferguson ferry fiasco.
Indeed, Michael – There seems to be a lot more to government than waving a saltire. Any more like this – and one might begin to think separatism isn’t a panacea after all! 😉
As opposed to crossrail, 30 billion to friends for a track and trace system that doesn’t work, VIP lanes for lucrative contracts, partygate, the contract for ferries with a company that couldn’t produce to operate from a port that couldn’t accept them. peerages for dodgy Russians. How is HS2 and the Northern upgrade going? How is the crossing from Scotland to Northern Ireland going after millions being spent on it? A bit like the Garden Bridge that Boris also oversaw and spent millions on. The SG have overseen the new Forth crossing, on time and on budget, the borders railway.… Read more »
Ahh standard Nationalist defence of Whitaboutery!!
Non of the above gives the SG an excuse for serial incompetence !!
Aah the standard accusation of whitaboutery from a unionist. If Westminster rule is the alternative to self determination making comparisons is legitimate.
Exactly how does Westminster rule Scotland. Specifics please ? Other than determining constitutional matters which the SNP agreed to at the time?
What makes you think the SNP are doing a worse job in Scotland than Labour in Wales or any local authority in England? The squeeze is on everywhere, nobody is doing well, unless you’re a Tory party donor perhaps.
A typical diversionary “ Whitaboutery”. Frankly I could not care less about Wales or parts of England.
Scotlands economy has been tanking long before the “ squeeze” as you put it. The Nat/Green coalition is decidedly anti business as was the previous minority Nat government !!
Right so what you’re saying is you think Scotland is doing poorly as you don’t want to compare it to anywhere else in the UK?
Scotland was third most prosperous part of the UK for over 30 years, it’s currently been nudged to fourth. Scotland isn’t doing badly due to Scot Gov, it’s doing worse than you think it should be due to a global recession, a global pandemic and now leaving the EU. Try acknowledging the reality of the situation before assuming Scotland has it bad.
Interesting you picked a thirty year time frame when the Nats were only in power for a third of that time and North Sea oil was still a significant factor in the countries economy !! “ Nudged to fourth” meaning nudged to last and the global pandemic hit all parts of the U.K. or are you imply that the Scottish Nationalist Government handled the pandemic worse than England and the other devolved assemblies? Perhaps you don’t want to open that Pandora’s box!! As for acknowledging the situation, I have seen a considered world class education system dropped so low the… Read more »
The UK Government only started recording the breakdown as of 1981, Scotland was top three from then to 2014, still sits fourth. The breakdown isn’t by country, For context this is the rankings by the ONS on GVA: England (average) £33,809 London £56,199 South East £35,631 East of England £30,622 South West £29,147 North West £28,993 West Midlands £27,574 East Midlands £26,852 Yorkshire and the Humber £26,667 North East £24,068 Scotland £30,560 Northern Ireland £25,656 Wales £24,586 You are correct, Scotland was higher due to oil in the past, but even in the current situation Scotland still… Read more »
I was waiting for the “ Too wee , too poor” nonsense!! , have I said it was, have I mentioned independence?, err NO , you have so you have pretty much shown your hand despite your claims to be undecided. However as you have gone there and now gone even further away from the topic , eg Scotgov incompetence at procuring ferries . Do I think Scotland is “ Too wee, too poor “ etc actually NO , but it would be good if the Nats came clean about how rocky the road is and the not inconsiderable challenges… Read more »
FYI I voted No last time round, the lack of a sound plan for the economy and EU membership being the deal breakers for me, but I digress.
You’re the one who claims Scotland is doing a poor job, I’m trying to point out that it’s probably the same as the rest of the UK at worst. No one is doing well thanks to pandemic and leaving the EU.
As for ferries, Ferguson should have been left to fail, simple as that, let the private sector sort it out and if they couldn’t the contract should have been reissued.
So we are now away from the independence question and Scotland being “ too wee, too poor” nonsense.
FYI your voting habits are your business.
Correct , Scotgov are doing a poor job in my opinion , not just ferry procurement .
You appear to have a different opinion, that is your right in a democracy .
Now this is the third time I have respectfully tried to end this discussion.
Ireland have a GDP per head twice that of the UK. They did it through low tax, low regulation and not pursuing loss leading subsidised industry…. Which would be the diametric opposite of what Jimmy Krankie would do if she was in charge of an independent Scotland….
Ha ha, you unionists have been telling us for years the oil is soon to run out. After the referendum the position changed again. Oil is always running out prior to people heading to the polls.
Why is your blood boiling? The world has to reduce its dependency on carbon fuel, there will always be some excuse to support using it, for some of us leaving the planet in good order for our grandchildren is important.
Where did I say they oil is running out?hasn’t sturgeon suddenly decided she is against further North Sea exploration!!
My blood boils because Sturgeon is talking BS and putting her political idiotology ahead of the country again. and as long as this country needs oil and gas we should secure it from a source as close to home as possible. Which is both more ecological and provides energy
I thought even a nationalist had sufficient intelligence to join those dots.
It would seem that I have Tendency to be In Agreement With You, Michael, with reference to the SNP and their Political Leanings to Running Scotland Relentlessly Into the Ground: It would seem “a Scottish Educational Background used to be Guaranteed Certainty Of Broad Understanding of the World In Which the Person Lived”. Where are the Broad Brush Scottish Workers “of Today” ~ Unable to Build Much Needed Inter-Island Ferries and More-particularly “Years Behind with the Completion Dates”. Heaven Forbid “an Independent Scotland Attempting-to Defend Itself in Decades to Come: A Government Administration that Nationalises Ailing Business Concerns in an… Read more »
RN and RFA ships are designated as warships, so cannot be built outside the UK for security reasons.
At the end of the day its the ENGLISH who will end up paying for the ships one way or another.
What a joke
Not if you are English. England coughs up the money for such as this farce.
No it doesn’t, the UK runs a deficit far larger than the devolved Governments budgets, do you know what that means? Westminster borrows more than it raises in taxes every year, so if anything, this is all borrowed money so maybe get angry at the right people.
Yes it does. The United Kingdom (i.e. England) acts as guarantor to Scotland because, as has been pointed out numerous times, Scotland by itself has no record to use in negotiating lines of finance other than Westminster, that does. The good news for Scots is their country cannot default. Only the United Kingdom could. So, in the last analysis Scotland benefits from England’s credit history. One of the many hidden icebergs floating towards an independent Scotland were well neigh insuperable currency and financial borrowing at rates anywhere close to what England (i.e. U,K,) can obtain. Scots are living on predominantly… Read more »
That logic doesn’t even make sense, if it’s under written by the UK’s ability to borrow that means it’s not thanks to England, Scotland or anyone else, it’s all UK tax revenue and assets against which borrowing is made, there is no breakdown made by lenders when making that decision. If you don’t live in London then odds are you’re in a part of the country less economically active than Scotland, the myth of the English taxpayer paying for devolved governments is laughable as England itself is basically financed by London, there is no moral high ground here. Go compare… Read more »
Given it is a nationalised ferry company, shouldn’t these vessels come under the recently announced National Shipbuilding Strategy. And be built here, in the UK?
Brass tacks time…what UK shipyard? As I said above Fergusson Marine hasn’t even delivered MV Glen Sannox yet let alone take on new orders. UK yards primarily specialise in military shipbuilding or maintenance. None are competitive against yards in Turkey or Vietnam in the building of ferries. There is a desperate need for new ferries in Scotland and there is no way we can wait for a UK yard to eventually build something. CEMRE is agreeing to a highly aggressive build schedule and going on their portfolio they appear to be credible when it comes to capability to deliver on… Read more »
We?
I live in Scotland and make use of ferry services here so was using the royal ‘We’
Totally agree.
Err, Cammell Laird do a pretty good stock in trade in ferries.
No they don’t, in the last decade they have built three small ferries (very small). Cemre in Turkey built eight in one year alone!
Surely though mate, there has been a problem with ferries for a while. Setting aside where they’re built, they should have been ordered a while back.
That I 100% agree with, this order should have been put in long ago and Calmac is an utter mess exacerbated by a Scottish Government that shows no interest in truly examining how these ferries are operated in the modern market leading to over vessels being ordered that have features that are totally unnecessary for the routes they run. Most passengers these days want a quick Coffee and a Pastry or Panini yet Calmac operates vessels that have a full restaurant and bar service. They also operate vessels with live onboard crews when the hours vessels operate would allow for… Read more »
Well, Scottish ferries WERE listed in that recently published document…….
That’s what I thought. Perhaps we are going to have a lovely new National Shipbuilding Strategy, but not just yet!
Until things get a lot more efficient in UK shipbuilding that won’t happen.
As others have said in the thread there are yards that makes these things for a living and there is a reason why.
So why cant UK yards be as efficient / cost effective? Why can’t they learn the skills to make a small profit on cheaper ships and build up profits as they gain skills, speed and reputation.
It doesn’t give much faith in UK shipbuilding ability if even the nationalised CalMac goes abroad for its vessels. Why should foreign companies by UK ships if even UK dont? Although granted, there may be a specific political slant as to why SNP could not lower itself to buy from an English yard such as CL
“So why cant UK yards be as efficient / cost effective?”
Good question, but the article very clearly points out that they aren’t Ferguon have royally cocked up their build and have forced CalMac to go elsewhere.
While I think it’s a real shame, I can’t see they had much choice in this instance. Hopefully they’ll have got their act together by the time the next batch of ferries are up for tender…
Are you prepared to work for £1.27 an hour?
That is the current average per hour wage at a Turkish shipyard at the moment.
I think you start with the things like T31 and Solids Support where there is a good margin and see if they can actually deliver quality on time. If they can do that then you start a conversation about the low margin stuff like ferries. But it depends on very high levels of automation that I have yet to see in the UK. As @Fedaykin states further down the thread Turkish wages are a lot lower so it is impossible to compete without the automation. Even with the automation you need the experience to use if hyper efficiently knocking out… Read more »
At least they will enter service on time and budget. SNP do nothing for Scotland except waste waste waste
Hence my detailed reply to Michael Hannah higher up in this thread, On subject of the Serious Requirements for Government (All Shades Of) Research & Development “and Before Deciding-on Relatively Untested “Hybrid Power-plant” Engineering for Propulsion of Civilian Ferries on Scottish Inter-Island Routes (Predominantly)”:
Where “Heavy-duty Engineering and Maintenance Facilities are at Considerable Distance From the Inter-Island Routes, Should Ferries Availability become rather challenging and then Compromised to such extent Services Ceased Until Repaired”.
Look on the bright side, this is another nail in the already ‘well nailed’ coffin of Scottish independence.
If you think that then you are either naïve or deluded….
…… perhaps understandably, Fedaykin, I would describe Marius as hopeful 😉
Think it’s both.
You are giving the electorate way too much credit.
By this point it’s surely more nail than coffin, I’d have thought.
Might have been so if the continued incompetence of the Westminster government didn’t make the failures of the Scottish government pale into insignificance.
I see what you did there Stuart! We call it classic “What-aboutery”!
After 15 years in office, when do we start holding an SNP administration accountable for its failures – without playing the “Westminster” card !?!
Incidentally, the other ship-building complex on the Clyde (Govan/Scotstoun) is booming with work from the UK government/aka “Westminster”.
It’s actually not, any administration should be held accountable for their failures no matter who it is. But if the original poster feels that this is enough to put another “nail in the SNP coffin” with everything else going on especially at Westminster and their lack of accountability, on anything, then he is sadly deluded. Lots of work going to BAe on the Clyde, mainly due to lack of alternatives, hopefully being addressed by Babcock but as they are also in Scotland I’m sure that many posters on her will be upset about that. But major issues with build quality… Read more »
Hi Stuart, If you want to debate the propulsion system used on T45 – or the quality build issues with HMS Forth, go ahead. You couldn’t find a better forum than UKDJ.
“delays also meaning the shipyard has missed out on work on new frigates”
Personally I don’t think they deserve frigate work.
This is not an old school job creation program but a rebuild **cost effective** warship building program.
As such if the useless miss out then that is actually a good thing and shows that some kind of PQA and QA is going on.
It is hard to argue that Fergusons could really add anything to warship building other than costs and delays given current experience.
If they can’t manage the cabling in a ferry, what chance would they have with the systems in a warship?
Why are the SNP even allowed to spend money on nationalising a failed business like Ferguson, when they’re running a near 12% budget deficit, or however much it is thesedays?
What a crooked, grubby, nasty little Banana Republic, the SNP have been allowed to turn Scotland into…
They aren’t running a deficit. That is simply money they are now owed by English taxpayers.
Why does Scotland have to pay £5Bil per year in debt interest when it was the third most prosperous area of the UK for nearly 4 decades and didn’t contribute to that debt for over 33 years? Can I also ask, why does running a deficit matter? The UK has only had 6 years where it spent within its means in the last 41 years (3 under Gordon Brown), feel free to have a look at how much is spent on various parts of England and Wales then get back to me. ONS has all the figures, if you add… Read more »
Scotland is living beyond its means and certainly ambitions. Independence is the only way to demonstrate this plain fact. The Union is the way forward if Scots want to hang on to what they have. The S.N.P. has only one function, a highly charges imaginative re-run of a fabled history. Fantasy is great on the big or small screen, but reality bites, as here.
Please point to all the failed European countries with roughly 5-6mil people, I’ve got time.
Do you know why Scotland has suddenly developed an annual deficit since 2014? What even constitutes the deficit? How can a devolved government get a share of money from (and decided by) central government to run devolved matters yet claim the money not being sent back is not enough to cover reserved matters, surely HM Treasury needs to sort that out if it’s wrong?
A tale of two shipyards!
The current CALMAC fleet is breaking down, and the island communities of Scotland desperately need a reliable ferry service.
After 15 years of SNP devolved administration, including nationalising the Port Glasgow shipyard on the Clyde (the so-called “Scottish yard”); Ms Sturgeon is giving orders for new ships to Turkey.
Meanwhile, the BAE Govan/Scotstoun complex on the Clyde is managed efficiently and booming with work from the UK government.
One can’t fail to be struck by the contrast in the differing fortunes of two yards, only a few miles apart, on the same river!
Ferguson was only bailed out by Scot Gov due to their own poor management, lets not kid ourselves that things went downhill after the Scot Gov got involved. The ship yard was a loss making endeavor and should have been allowed to fail like any other business, as pointed out elsewhere there are plenty of other yards across Scotland let alone the UK that could have done this work.
Hi Pragmatic Scot And the rescue mission by the SNP administration continues to be botched. Although not before they got some good sound-bites from nationalisation during 2019. Indeed also a bit of excellent spin when it was agreed that Jim McColl’s company would intervene in 2014 to takeover the yard, just before the Independence Referendum. McColl – a Scottish entrepreneur with some success in engineering – claims that damaging interventions on the current build from CMAL, a devolved government agency, contributed to the delay and cost over-run. It’s often remarked that we have government by soundbite in Scotland! And unfortunately… Read more »
The Scottish Nationalist Party was right all along. There are no Scottish ships being built in Scottishland.
Can anyone explain to me in simple terms what’s happened with Ferguson’s? From memory they almost exclusively built all Scottish ferries for years and seemed to be pretty good at it.
How can we get to a situation where a shipbuilding strategy can be completely ignored and undercut by a devolved government placing foreign orders for a nationalized transport company when the same devolved government continues to directly own the shipyard that built the predecessors?!
I completely agree.
The key to understanding this farce is in the plain fact that the Scottish Government exists on British (i.e. English) taxpayers wallets. It will never suffer the consequences of its own self generated financial follies.
.
Just to throw the cat among the pigeons but should Scot Gov just keep throwing money at Ferguson until they get it right or are they right to go elsewhere? Oddly people are asking the same questions of Ajax, should UK Gov drop Ajax, seems like procurement is a mess all round.
Realise why they wanted to keep Fergusons alive and why they had to nationalise it. But if it needs to be supported to the level that it cannot make a profit, or make a ferry successfully then it is either pull the plug or once the ferry fiasco has calmed down it is sold as a going concern to a company that knows what it is doing. Not someone like Jim McCall
Honestly, they should have just let them go under, let someone in the private sector step in to sort it out and refinance the company if viable. Harsh, most definitely, but government shouldn’t be stepping in to bail out private business that’s failing due to being poorly run.
It’s Jim McColl, Stuart. If you’re going to disparage him – at least get his name right. Incidentally, I’ve met Jim – he’s a successful entrepreneur, an inspirational speaker – and a patriotic Scot. Not so long ago, he was also feted by Ms Sturgeon. Only last month, McColl himself asked for an independent judge-led inquiry into Ferguson ferries fiasco. He stated – “Three sets of highly qualified experts, including the government’s own appointed expert, Commodore Luke van Beek, along with the highly competent and experienced senior management team at Ferguson Marine, highlighted the serious shortcomings at CMAL just short… Read more »
Thought I had put McColl, apologies. Entrepreneur, inspirational speaker, patriotic scot, very successful business man absolutely. Does that mean he will know how to run a shipbuilding business not necessarily. But you seem to be incredibly fond of him. Will be interesting to hear output of independent investigation. As there is finger pointing in every direction and all anyone should want is the truth and for it to not happen again. Faults on all sides not just CMAL.
Hi Stuart, I met Jim McColl at the Royal Philosophical Society of Glasgow, and he was an excellent guest speaker. His talk covered Scottish business, and opportunities for young people.
I was indeed impressed by him, although not as much as Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon – especially when he took over the failing Ferguson yard in 2014 (just before the Independence Referendum). He was also one of their economic advisors.
Incidentally, he doesn’t design or build a ship – he runs the business operation, and strangely before his involvement with Ferguson he seemed to have a good track-record.
Hi Alan, thank you for the revelation that the Monaco based Jim McColl did not personally design or build the ships at Ferguson’s shipyard, if he had maybe it would be an obvious reason behind many of the issues being experienced. You will be telling me next that he personally did not help build each of the products developed and sold by Clyde Blowers, which would be very disappointing. I agree that Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond did see a prominent, successful, SNP supporting billionaire as good PR to take over an ailing Clyde shipyard and turn it around. But… Read more »
Stuart, Are you still on this thread? “But unfortunately that did not work out due to numerous reasons“. You hang on to that consolation, my friend. Indeed one might think you’ve been dispatched by SNP HQ from their underground bunker to wander this battlefield like a hapless Russian conscript. But your sacrificial courage and resilience in the face of heavy fire is very commendable 😀 Unfortunately, Scottish separatists have been playing politics with ship-building for years – keen to find a reason for a bit of bogus grievance and gripe! Despite evidence from one’s own eyes at Govan, some examples include… Read more »
But how can Scottish government wail about building all the RN’s new frigates in Scotland then have the barefaced cheek to order from outside the UK?
I mean RN vessels are complex warships so have to be built in the UK. These are ferries for the islands, value for money should surely be the priority?
Yes but why are they taking trade away from a shipyard they directly own? It seems like insanity to me. Have they added in the cost of making Ferguson’s staff redundant and paying them benefits for the next umpty years? Or factored in the fact that if the money is paid to UK firms, and hence to UK workers there will also be benefits in terms of income tax, VAT on products bought etc.?
BAE are advertising for almost all trade positions so my guess is many could move over. I think the saga of Ferguson just needs to end, Scot Gov aren’t ship builders and as harsh as it is, the previous management failed and the yard should have gone out of business in 2019, it’s been on borrowed time ever since. Labor costs are much lower in Turkey which is probably why no one in the UK could match it, sounds oddly familiar when it comes to industry in the country sadly.
A spirited defence of a huge national – one might say Nationalist – embarrassment. The S.N.P. set itself up to be so different. It is but not ina good way. If I give you money and you kindly give some back to me, how and when does it become ‘your money’? The story here is simple but muddy by design: The S.N.P. nationalised a company that cannot build ships in time and to cost because they wanted a ‘Scottish’ shipbuilding industry they could plant a flag on. It was they and their supporters responsible, as George’s UKDJ has detailed in… Read more »
The caveat being that Ferguson was previously a good ship builder (hence them getting the original contract) but was ran into the ground by previous management. Unless it’s critical to national capability (which this wasn’t) the business should have been allowed to fail, not a nice thing but Government needs to draw the line somewhere about bailing out businesses.
It’s a courageous concept, Pragmatic, and perhaps Devolved Scotland should embrace dynamic, small state, laissez-faire economics – and place big bets on new industries. But depressingly, that isn’t remotely like politics in Scotland today, nor is it likely to be in the near further. In Scotia’s febrile discourse – businesses like the Ferguson yard will remain political footballs. And ship-building a totem of populist, national virility in our “Big State”. I know you’re leaning towards separatism at moment – but I think you will be very much a derided, lone voice in such company, albeit for me – a refreshing… Read more »
The reality is that any money spent in the U.K. is recycled as tax take and economic stimulus. Essentially any omen you spend outside the U.K. is gone. If you spend it in the U.K. most of that money will be returned as tax take that year, as economic stimulus or actually bay back more as you support your own industry. Any U.K. taxpayers money spent outside the U.K. should only be done so if there is no way it can be spent in the U.K. or if all the other benefits such as tax take return, job stimulus, economic… Read more »
The Isle of Man steam packet ferry is being built in South Korea. So nothing new.
Wonder if the new Turkish-built ferries will be in service before Glen Sannox and 802?
Wondering also if one of them will be christened the MV Bayraktar.
Aye! But it’s a Scortish, Turkish sheepyard ye sassenach scunners!!! Read the comments below for the laugh of a lifetime: straight out of Brigadoon.
Will these Ferries that are now to be built in Turkey still have that odd quirk of being able to lay mines as was a specified part of British Shipbuilding for Ferry’s
I’m really interested to hear what the reaction from snp haters would have been had the contract been awarded to fergusons. The snp nationalised a yard in a bid to save jobs and provide a manufacturing base for the future. Hopefully this can still be achieved. Right now however this is not possible until the current 2 ferries are completed. Once they are, and once the 2 Turkish ferries are completed, then Scotland will still have a shipbuilding yard which hopefully will win and complete future orders successfully.
Let me get this right? 1. The Scottish SNP government receives funding from the UK taxpayer to run ferries that are a vital lifeline for remote communities. 2. That same government awards that taxpayer money to a yard that is NOT only not in Scotland, but is outside the UK and the EU. An EU that Sturgeon is convinced is the promised land? 3. Meanwhile, English and Northern Ireland shipyards don’t get a look-in for multi-billion pound contracts that would bring jobs, skills, community development and long term prosperity, all because the UK government needs to keep the Scottish electorate… Read more »
Scot Gov gets back a portion of taxes paid to the Exchequer via the Barnett Formula, so this is Scottish taxpayer money that is being used. Also the contract is £130mil, not Billions.
The Turkish yards build these types of ferries rapidly and at a fraction of the cost as wages are less than a tenth what they are in the UK. Are you advocating spending more taxpayer money on a contract from a UK based yard who don’t build these kinds of ships very regularly, that sounds like a waste of taxpayer money to me?
Hi Pragmatic You’re an excellent poster on this forum – and thanks for your response to some of the ill-mannered comments earlier on this thread. Some people just can’t help themselves …….. But you know that this story didn’t begin today. It started in 2015 when the Glen Sannox order was placed with the Ferguson yard. Indeed, it began even earlier during the design phase – and the machinations that led to Jim McColl eventually taking over the yard in 2014. The two ferries were originally expected to enter service in 2019. But for mismanagement of that order they should… Read more »
The whole thing has been a mess for a long time, I don’t agree with Scot Gov stepping in to save the yard as it was a private venture that failed. All that’s happened since is the taxpayer has paid off £50mil of their debt and with even more problems in the build, which calls into question the practices of the yard and it’s subcontractors, we’re left with very few options. I get the feeling that if Scot Gov did go with another yard in the UK the cost would have been significantly higher so they would have been blamed… Read more »
I don’t necessarily blame the Scots adminstration for attempting to support a strategic industry to save two orders that were well advanced. Unfortunately it seems those ships are “dead racoons” that are riddled with defects, probably unknown to the politicians and spreadsheet jockey’s that made the decision. Ferguson is still probably short of skilled staff. The UK has been in long term decline when it comes to engineering training and support. Engineering is not easy and it require application and dedication, often on a mediocre salary, I can understand people not bothering.
Wollaston, The “Glen Sannox order” was really not well advanced. Just to recap: On the eve of the Independence Referendum in 2014 – with the Ferguson yard about to go bust (and perhaps a bit embarrassing for a nationalist narrative) – the SNP administration orchestrated a rescue plan. The Scottish government, via their agency C-MAL, then placed the Glen Sannox order in 2015 with the new owner at Ferguson. The two ships should have been handed over to the customer (C-MAL) by 2019. The Glen Sannox orders then fell behind – and very controversially the yard was nationalised by the… Read more »
You are obviously close to this, thanks for the update Alan.
One can’t fail to be close to it in the west of Scotland, Wollaston, it’s been the subject of much media comment. 😉 Best regards.
Sorry why is this article in a defence site….
If I’m not mistaken, It would seem to be absolutely ridiculously relevant to the UK being an Island Nation and Requirements for Sea-going Vessels: “Going Forward in time….. interesting don’t you think………
Makes you question, how the SNP would react if Westminster did the same. if they have such little faith in there own yards why should the UK.
Do I laugh or cry, either way I wonder how the SNP is going to explain British tax payers money going to a third country to build shipswhen the SNP also used British tax payers money to nationalise a ship yard to do just this job. Ah well they can always blame the rest of the UK.
Come back SidJames, Babs and the carry on gang we’ve missed you, and we got a new film idea” Carry on up the loch ?”
The delay to the ferries has cost the Port Glasgow shipyard work on new frigates.
I bet the Jockanese government blames the English
So long as their is a government in North Jockania that is openly hostile to the UK it should not be getting ANY UK defence or UK governmental contracts
Turkish industry like steel making and shipbuilding is all subsidised. GDP smaller than the UK yet their pollution is far bigger, that is the future cost. Scotland loses up to 50% tax and there ends the discussion.
I think an understanding of the TRY Lira since 1999 and it’s huge devaluing needs to be understood.