The work wanted by Rosyth includes the already scheduled refit of HMS Scott and yet to be allocated work on Type 45 destroyers.

With workers at the Rosyth Dockyard in Fife facing 250 redundancies, Prospect, the biggest union on site, is calling for a package of Royal Navy work to be awarded to the dockyard.

Prospect’s national secretary for Scotland Richard Hardy said:

“On behalf of those members facing a bleak Christmas at the risk of redundancy, Prospect is more than disappointed at this decision by the MoD, which seems to be based on crew convenience rather than any sensible economic or workload metrics.”

Babcock is also bidding for a major package of work overhauling the Navy’s fleet of Type 45 destroyers, which will provide a substantial amount of work for a number of years. If done at Rosyth, where it could be done quicker than at other yards, this package of work could also help offset the current redundancy crisis.

“Any work coming into Rosyth will help stave off job losses. HMS Scott will help, but the award of the Type 45 contract is a vital piece of the jigsaw in offsetting redundancies and securing the future of the yard,” said Hardy.

We’re working positively with the senior team at Babcock and we will now start to lobby on this issue with our contacts in MoD, in Westminster and at Holyrood.”

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TH
Guest
TH

How many more millions of hard earned pounds are to be pumped into these six ships?

Rob
Guest
Rob

Quite a bit as the carriers can’t go anywhere without them!

If it were up to me I would be spending slightly more and adding Mk41 VLS and maybe even torpedo launchers too.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Plenty.
Navies have warships.
Many have bigger warships like destroyers.
The RN is a leading navy ( hurts eh? )
The day the world uniliateraly disarms we can get rid of ours.
Til then.
On we go.

Jack Wyatt
Guest

Can anyone advise if the FSL at the time stood up to the MOD/Govt to advise the use of an untested propulsion system in such an important ship was potentially catastrophic?

BB45
Guest
BB45

Nothing wrong with investing in new technology, its a shame they weren’t tested more thoroughly so the fix could be corrected before all 6 where completed. Hopefully they don’t make a mess of the smooth lines on the hull when they cut them open and weld them back up.

Jack Wyatt
Guest

Is it really a fix or a patch over the problem?

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

I don’t think technically it is a propulsion problem but a heat management problem with the power packs. Had a different heat exchanger / recuperator been selected we wouldn’t have been talking about this issue. Propulsion being provided by electric systems isn’t really new but the electric motors are obviously dependent on the electrical supply. If the supply fails, so will they. It is an issue of load management, which the initial design doesn’t seem to have done very well. In my opinion, even with the loss or a significant reduction in power, certain critical systems should be guaranteed. I… Read more »

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

Sorry, correction – it is NOT a propulsion problem…

Ws
Guest
Ws

BAE should be shouldering some of the responsibility and cost. God knows they have had more than their monies worth out of these ships and every other deal they have signed with the uk mod

clive
Guest
clive

I think it was the last Labour government who specified the components that are causing the issue. My understanding is that they chose them as they were British, the alternative being foreign, but I am prepared to stand corrected if I am mistaken. I do agree, though, that the contractors could shoulder some of the cost as a gesture.

Bob, Hull
Guest
Bob, Hull

Not only should BAE shoulder blame but Rolls Royce the engine manufacturers should as well. They should have known that the RN sail from North to South and East to West and all points between. The MOD should specify the parameters but the rest is up to shipbuilders and engine makers.

Ws
Guest
Ws

Clive you are correct, but bae should have a duty of care as a Uk company to stand up and say this just won’t work, instead of Just taking the money to appease shareholders.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

I was under the impression the fault lies with the Rolls Royce & Northrop Grumman Joint Venture’s recuperators. The JV seems to be Anglo-American, I do not know which company supplied the actual intercoolers, researching: From Wikipedia: “Developed with government funding input from the UK, France and the United States, the WR-21 was designed and manufactured by an international consortium led by Northrop Grumman as prime contractor.[1] The turbine itself was designed primarily by Rolls-Royce with significant marine engineering and test facility input from DCN, with Northrop Grumman responsible for the intercooler, the recuperator and system integration.[1][2]” Sounds like damage… Read more »

TH
Guest
TH

Excellent comment from a Times reader:

“The conversation we should be having is about the role the UK can afford to play in a post colonial world. We cannot afford to punch above our weight and I suspect a large section of the public don’t want us to. If we have no colonies left to protect why do we need to project ourselves globally in a world of shifting socio-economic relationships.

It is time for us to rediscover who we are and recognise that the emperor is naked.”

Stuart Willard
Guest

Tends to be a bit late when they are knocking at your door. This idea that if we do nothing we will be safe from attack is as naive as it gets and is proven so in thousands of years of history, if reading the news most weeks isn’t convincing enough. Our armed forces are close to the minimum required to offer any sort of defence and every other aspect of our lives are pointless if we can’t ensure we have a moderate hope of preserving it. We already have a new enermy developing in Turkey who are boasting about… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Rubbish.

I think most people actually are blissfully ignorant of what is happening to our military and assume they are well resourced.

Not the silent majority wanting the military dismantled.

marc
Guest
marc

But we still are required to fork out £13 billion on foreign aid each year,that would fill a sizeable hole in the defence budget.

be02ese
Guest

Why are you here TH? Just why? You clearly hate everything the military stands for.

Go sign a petition you waste of skin.

TH
Guest
TH

I don’t hate the military but I do pay a lot of taxes you numpty. And if you really wanted to save money, then stop this appalling waste of between £35 to £40 billion to buy our way out of the EU whilst leaving a back door wide open via Eire. If I ever witnessed the act of absolute dimwits, it was those who voted for this utter fiasco and who were dumb enough to be conned into voting Brexit, something which will never fully happen.

BB45
Guest
BB45

Is there not a forum you can join somewhere to complain about how much of your tax money is wasted every year on foreign aid, crooked renewable energy projects and lining the pockets of developers and football club owners for poorly thought out government projects?
Our defensive spending is 2% of GDP which is a disgrace considering it is the first duty of any government.

David Steeper
Guest

Hi TH I’d just agreed with you in another article but thankfully am back to normal now ! We have Gibraltar, Falklands and Belize dependent on our military for their very existence. Plus genuine friends and interests elsewhere so that’s why we need a strong military.

David Stephen
Guest
David Stephen

TH, you are a truly a waste of flesh. Go protest Brexit elswhere with your vegan pals. You lost the vote and you and the rest of the idiots who don’t understand how democracy works need to move on. I was not conned in to anything and am fully prepared to deal with any and all consequnces, financial or otherwise that result from my decision. There was more at stake. I do not expect you to understand as you clearly lack the capacity to think clearly. You are an ideolog who is incapable of seeing things from anyone elses perspective.… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

David – Amen indeed my friend …

marc
Guest
marc

We do not have to pay the EU a single penny it is the bad loser remainers who are squandering our taxes and making the whole process more difficult than it should be you people ought to be ashamed of yourselves

Pacman27
Guest
Pacman27

TH You are so wrong – please stick to facts. The UK is one of the richest countries on planet earth and is very successful in numerous industries and a world leader in culture, human rights, education, healthcare and defence to name just a few areas. It is a choice of government that not enough taxes are collected to pay for the welfare state we have created. This is a simple fact that you need to accept – the scale of the issue is such that you can disband the MOD and everyone who works in justice and it still… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Hear hear.

TH
Guest
TH

And if you really wanted to save money, then stop this appalling waste of between £35 to £40 billion to buy our way out of the EU whilst leaving a back door wide open via Eire. If I ever witnessed the act of absolute dimwits, it was those who voted for this utter fiasco and who were dumb enough to be conned into voting Brexit, something which will never fully happen.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Even pasting stock replies now.

Brexit is the latest button to push eh.

Chris
Guest
Chris

TH – So correct me if I am wrong but according tour copy / paste stock post it is wrong for us to act honourably and pay what we believe we owe for the residual costs of the MFF and some pensions over 30 years but its OK for us to pay, say, £130 Bn over 10 years which is what the EU would cost us had we ‘Remained’ (nett of rebate) in your view? As a protesting taxpayer demanding value for money you seem confused as to your position …. Now I did smile at your stupidity (again) about… Read more »

dave12
Guest
dave12

KREMLIN PAID TROLL is what TH is ,,,,,,,,go post your nonsense on RT they will belive it there

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

Quite Brexit is something that will never be achieved because, unfortunately, there are too many people like you in positions of influence – easy in their prejudices and comfortable in their assumptions: quick to draw conclusions but uncritical in their reasoning. It is a sad day for the country when proofs by assertion and ecological fallacies are used to undermine the democratic will of the people. Now, if you want to argue that our form of democracy is undemocratic then I would certainly agree with you in part but that is an entirely different question. I have been stating from… Read more »

john
Guest
john

Yes well said!!

TH
Guest
TH

You sound like my old granny’s parrot John. He squawked a lot too but never much understood things. He didn’t have to pay taxes either.

TH
Guest
TH

I believe in a defence budget paid for from our hard earned taxes which is sustainable and reflects this country’s place in the world. Now, just who are the real enemies? Russia, China ? Nonsense! It is terrorists and extremists and they aren’t deterred by white elephant carriers and Trident!
Fortunately, as I am fast finding out, posters on here are in the minority and I and others will plague politicians endlessly until reality is faced.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Reflects this countries place in the world.

Which Is?

This will be fun.

TH
Guest
TH

A medium sized European country with adequate coastal forces, defensive air and ground forces with no expeditionary element. Dispense with nuclear weapons. I have already sent off two letters calling for an average defence spend of 1.42% in common with the European average.

Indeed, I concur with what Veterans for Peace are actively campaigning for:
https://vfpuk.org/

Real former armed services personnel not bath tub admirals on here.

Just think, all the time you are posting here, you could be actually campaigning.

I have already sent off two letters calling for an average defence spend of 1.42% GDP in common with the European average.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

But the UK is not a medium sized European country is it?

TH
Guest
TH

Yes it is.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Lol. Quite incredible.

TH
Guest
TH

Lol. Happy to face economic reality. A reality which this country will eventually have to face. 1.42% of GDP is more than adequate for defence spending.

Stephen G.
Guest
Stephen G.

Dispense with nuclear weapons? Then we would be at the mercy of those with nuclear weapons. Your ideas are dangerous.

TH
Guest
TH

And if you really wanted to save money, then stop this appalling waste of between £35 to £40 billion to buy our way out of the EU whilst leaving a back door wide open via Eire. If I ever witnessed the act of absolute dimwits, it was those who voted for this utter fiasco and who were dumb enough to be conned into voting Brexit, something which will never fully happen.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Third time you’ve posted this.

Chris
Guest
Chris

TH – Can I gently remind you that repeating the same act in the expectation it will produce a different outcome is an early sign of Dementia … You have my deepest sympathies for a very sad life …

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

Don’t rise to it guys, TH obviously got out of bed on the wrong side this morning.

We get it TH, small weak Defence and Britain swallowed up by the European Union, I think we all get the message.

Wrong place to sell this philosophy me thinks…

TH
Guest
TH

A medium sized European country with adequate coastal forces, defensive air and ground forces with no expeditionary element. Dispense with nuclear weapons. I have already sent off two letters calling for an average defence spend of 1.42% in common with the European average.

Indeed, I concur with what Veterans for Peace are actively campaigning for:
https://vfpuk.org/

Real former armed services personnel not bath tub admirals on here.

Just think, all the time you are posting here, you could be actually campaigning.

I have already sent off two letters calling for an average defence spend of 1.42% GDP in common with the European average.

Rob
Guest
Rob

You make some big assumptions about the type of people who post on here. What on earth makes you think we do not campaign / write to our MPs etc? One slight flaw in the 1.42% argument. The EU will have to up its defence spending as the US (at least under Trump) seems a tad fed up of subsidising them. Who can blame them either, just look at the state of the German navy and air force. They will have to up their game, as we should too. I would like to see us spend the current budget much… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Agree.

Chris
Guest
Chris

TH – Second repetition ..

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

You seem to repeating yourself a lot TH. You don’t appear to grasp the fact we are a Maritime trading Island nation. We have been for 100’s of years, our EU dalliance has been a disappointing 40 year diversion. As we slowly move away from the “little Europe” mindset and slowly re-engage with the world, we will require the tools to robustly defend our interests and make a contribution to the defence of our Allies across the world. The white elephants, as you call the Carriers TH, will have a positive effect on peace enforcement again and again over the… Read more »

TH
Guest
TH

Getting out of the EU is going to cost between £35 to £40 billion leaving a wide open back door in the form of a soft border with Eire. It’s not going to happen as the racists and Little Englanders would like to see it.

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

Racists and little Englanders TH, well that’s an intelligent counter argument…

So the majority ( that’s how democracy works) voted out and because this doesn’t fit with your small minded insular Eurocentric attitude, you brand me and fellow BREXIT voters racist, that’s outrageous and very offensive.

What was it you said to John earlier in the thread…
“He squawked a lot too but never much understood things.”

I think you we’re looking in a mirror when you said this…

Very sad

David Stephen
Guest
David Stephen

Time to play the race card is it? Cry me a river you tit. I voted to leave the EU and I am not English.

Chris
Guest
Chris

TH – 4th repetition of this. BOOOORRRIINNGGGG

Chris
Guest
Chris

TH – would those ‘Little Englanders’ be the ones in Wales which voted Leave?

Or the 1 million Scots who voted Leave?

Or those in Northern Ireland who voted Leave?

#FacePalm

Ian B57
Guest
Ian B57

TH is a tad repetitive however Brexit is a mistake and mess in my view. That said lets look at facts. Bae have benefitted and not delivered value for money to taxpayer Tax evasion costing this country dearly which could plug gap. We cannot afford the strong defence we all desire and leaving EU will leave France, Germany, and Italy collaborating on future modernisation and development further worsening our chances of producing competitive produts for use and exporting . We can’t afford a go it alone project that would be effective. Even yanks already downplaying our importance and capabilities post… Read more »

Stephen G.
Guest
Stephen G.

Britain can absolutely afford a go it alone project that would be effective.

Chris
Guest
Chris

Ian – as a proud Brexiteer can I ask you to show us where we will be in any way abandoning our role as the most respected and effective security operation in Europe post Brexit? It is our GCHQ that provides EU Governments with the best anti-terrorist intelligence in the world and has foiled 300 attacks IN mainland Europe. Intelligence data enhanced because we are a key player in ‘Five Eyes’ none of the other 4 of which are in the EU. Whose Typhoons are now in Eastern Europe and have been supplying air cover in the Baltics? Whose C-17s… Read more »

marc
Guest
marc

The terrorists and eSpot on.

geoff
Guest
geoff

Getting back to the subject of the article I recall reading somewhere that warnings were issued before specifying these engines that they were not the best fit and could be problematic in hot conditions!!?

Paul
Guest
Paul

Whilst I can in part understand Prospect’s argument, what about workers in other parts of the UK who would be affected by moving this work up north?

David Steeper
Guest

Guy’s today I broke my rule of ignoring him and am already regretting it. So just don’t comment on him.

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

I won’t again David, quite right…

Chris
Guest
Chris

Can we separate the Gas Turbines them selves from the intercooler system please? Especially as (if my understanding is correct) the diesels shut down too hence complete loss of electric power generation. A ‘gradual degradation’ was designed in for the intercoolers that progressively closed down the gas turbines. Sadly what happens (occasionally) is a ‘catastrophic degradation’. AKA shut down. Nothing actually breaks or is damaged. Of course the RN Mechs are rather adept at making things work and have built a huge red ‘reset’ button that switches the electric back on….. A respectful jest that points out that no Type… Read more »

Gunbuster
Guest
Gunbuster

The machinery control software for the engines etc has been altered and that has helped. The monitoring logic is a lot more fuzzy ( tolerant of faults) and less black and white so shut downs are less. The modded recouperator core is under trial on a T45 now. ( Guess which one!) The T45 that operated in hot climates recently had little if any issues with TLFs ( Total Electrical Failures) because the users and operators now have a lot more confidence in the system and are operating it in the modes it was designed to operate under. That is… Read more »

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

It does seem strange that the Naval Architects didn’t see this issue, it demonstrates a lack of joined up thinking.

Still, we are where we are chaps, I hope lessons have been learnt and this expensive (and apparently) easily avoidable problem doesn’t occur again.

be02ese
Guest

Am I the only person here who’d like to meet TH and then punch him square in the throat?

barry white
Guest
barry white

No

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

No!!!! Fuming at the best of times.

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

No but you will never meet TH face to face…..ever because the little tit lives in Russia.
His address is
UK undermine office
Centre for hybrid warfare
Basement rooms
Kremlin
Moscow
Russia
anyone saying uk should give up nuclear weapons, carrier strike, etc must be a Putin mole. Simple
As to the UK armed forces they need much more investment not less. I would go to 3% gdp to defence now moving towards 4% by 2023. That is the best and only way to guard against future threats to uk sovereignty and our EEZ, a resurgent Russia and the ever growing might of China.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I wish you were right, I would feel happier with that.

Sadly I think you are wrong and he/she is British.

What the hell has this nation created. So ashamed someone like that
is from my nation.

marc
Guest
marc

The only reason the jocks can do them quicker is what pray tell?

Seamus O'Reilly
Guest
Seamus O'Reilly

The extremely costly problem with the T45’s results from having these ships designed by a committee, interfered with by bods in the MoD, rank engineering incompetence by BAe and a failure to correct the issues before all SIX of these warships were built and accepted by the RN.

You-all can winge as much as you like, but the root cause of this highly embarrassing fiasco is crap management by MoD/BAe compounded by various incompetent Ministers of Defence who were collectively incapable of understanding the complex engineering issues.