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The work wanted by Rosyth includes the already scheduled refit of HMS Scott and yet to be allocated work on Type 45 destroyers.

With workers at the Rosyth Dockyard in Fife facing 250 redundancies, Prospect, the biggest union on site, is calling for a package of Royal Navy work to be awarded to the dockyard.

Prospect’s national secretary for Scotland Richard Hardy said:

“On behalf of those members facing a bleak Christmas at the risk of redundancy, Prospect is more than disappointed at this decision by the MoD, which seems to be based on crew convenience rather than any sensible economic or workload metrics.”

Babcock is also bidding for a major package of work overhauling the Navy’s fleet of Type 45 destroyers, which will provide a substantial amount of work for a number of years. If done at Rosyth, where it could be done quicker than at other yards, this package of work could also help offset the current redundancy crisis.

“Any work coming into Rosyth will help stave off job losses. HMS Scott will help, but the award of the Type 45 contract is a vital piece of the jigsaw in offsetting redundancies and securing the future of the yard,” said Hardy.

We’re working positively with the senior team at Babcock and we will now start to lobby on this issue with our contacts in MoD, in Westminster and at Holyrood.”

73 COMMENTS

    • Quite a bit as the carriers can’t go anywhere without them!

      If it were up to me I would be spending slightly more and adding Mk41 VLS and maybe even torpedo launchers too.

    • Plenty.
      Navies have warships.
      Many have bigger warships like destroyers.
      The RN is a leading navy ( hurts eh? )
      The day the world uniliateraly disarms we can get rid of ours.
      Til then.
      On we go.

      • Can anyone advise if the FSL at the time stood up to the MOD/Govt to advise the use of an untested propulsion system in such an important ship was potentially catastrophic?

        • Nothing wrong with investing in new technology, its a shame they weren’t tested more thoroughly so the fix could be corrected before all 6 where completed. Hopefully they don’t make a mess of the smooth lines on the hull when they cut them open and weld them back up.

        • I don’t think technically it is a propulsion problem but a heat management problem with the power packs.

          Had a different heat exchanger / recuperator been selected we wouldn’t have been talking about this issue.

          Propulsion being provided by electric systems isn’t really new but the electric motors are obviously dependent on the electrical supply. If the supply fails, so will they. It is an issue of load management, which the initial design doesn’t seem to have done very well. In my opinion, even with the loss or a significant reduction in power, certain critical systems should be guaranteed. I would have thought propulsion, lighting, control and a few other systems should have been protected irrespectively.

  1. BAE should be shouldering some of the responsibility and cost. God knows they have had more than their monies worth out of these ships and every other deal they have signed with the uk mod

    • I think it was the last Labour government who specified the components that are causing the issue. My understanding is that they chose them as they were British, the alternative being foreign, but I am prepared to stand corrected if I am mistaken. I do agree, though, that the contractors could shoulder some of the cost as a gesture.

      • Not only should BAE shoulder blame but Rolls Royce the engine manufacturers should as well. They should have known that the RN sail from North to South and East to West and all points between. The MOD should specify the parameters but the rest is up to shipbuilders and engine makers.

      • Clive you are correct, but bae should have a duty of care as a Uk company to stand up and say this just won’t work, instead of Just taking the money to appease shareholders.

      • I was under the impression the fault lies with the Rolls Royce & Northrop Grumman Joint Venture’s recuperators. The JV seems to be Anglo-American, I do not know which company supplied the actual intercoolers, researching:

        From Wikipedia:
        “Developed with government funding input from the UK, France and the United States, the WR-21 was designed and manufactured by an international consortium led by Northrop Grumman as prime contractor.[1] The turbine itself was designed primarily by Rolls-Royce with significant marine engineering and test facility input from DCN, with Northrop Grumman responsible for the intercooler, the recuperator and system integration.[1][2]”

        Sounds like damage control by RR & DCN but it puts the blame for the cock up squarely with Northrop Grumman.

  2. Excellent comment from a Times reader:

    “The conversation we should be having is about the role the UK can afford to play in a post colonial world. We cannot afford to punch above our weight and I suspect a large section of the public don’t want us to. If we have no colonies left to protect why do we need to project ourselves globally in a world of shifting socio-economic relationships.

    It is time for us to rediscover who we are and recognise that the emperor is naked.”

    • Tends to be a bit late when they are knocking at your door. This idea that if we do nothing we will be safe from attack is as naive as it gets and is proven so in thousands of years of history, if reading the news most weeks isn’t convincing enough. Our armed forces are close to the minimum required to offer any sort of defence and every other aspect of our lives are pointless if we can’t ensure we have a moderate hope of preserving it. We already have a new enermy developing in Turkey who are boasting about how they could reach the Channel in a week and only this week told Greece it wanted some of its territory. Considering that is a country with history in threatening Europe and once controlled half of it I listen when they make such threats.

    • Rubbish.

      I think most people actually are blissfully ignorant of what is happening to our military and assume they are well resourced.

      Not the silent majority wanting the military dismantled.

    • But we still are required to fork out £13 billion on foreign aid each year,that would fill a sizeable hole in the defence budget.

    • I don’t hate the military but I do pay a lot of taxes you numpty. And if you really wanted to save money, then stop this appalling waste of between £35 to £40 billion to buy our way out of the EU whilst leaving a back door wide open via Eire. If I ever witnessed the act of absolute dimwits, it was those who voted for this utter fiasco and who were dumb enough to be conned into voting Brexit, something which will never fully happen.

      • Is there not a forum you can join somewhere to complain about how much of your tax money is wasted every year on foreign aid, crooked renewable energy projects and lining the pockets of developers and football club owners for poorly thought out government projects?
        Our defensive spending is 2% of GDP which is a disgrace considering it is the first duty of any government.

        • Hi TH I’d just agreed with you in another article but thankfully am back to normal now ! We have Gibraltar, Falklands and Belize dependent on our military for their very existence. Plus genuine friends and interests elsewhere so that’s why we need a strong military.

      • TH, you are a truly a waste of flesh. Go protest Brexit elswhere with your vegan pals. You lost the vote and you and the rest of the idiots who don’t understand how democracy works need to move on. I was not conned in to anything and am fully prepared to deal with any and all consequnces, financial or otherwise that result from my decision. There was more at stake. I do not expect you to understand as you clearly lack the capacity to think clearly. You are an ideolog who is incapable of seeing things from anyone elses perspective. Your defective mentality is evidenced by the fact that you still favor the EU despite the vendictive way thet are behaving towards the UK for having the audacity to say no to ever closer political integration. You seem to have the mindset of a victim of domestic abuse or be suffering from a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Take a long hard look in the mirror, realise that what you see is a pimple on the anus of this nation and then do us all a favor, change and become a worthwile example of a human being or alternativleygo play tig with the buses and give us all peace.

      • We do not have to pay the EU a single penny it is the bad loser remainers who are squandering our taxes and making the whole process more difficult than it should be you people ought to be ashamed of yourselves

  3. TH

    You are so wrong – please stick to facts. The UK is one of the richest countries on planet earth and is very successful in numerous industries and a world leader in culture, human rights, education, healthcare and defence to name just a few areas.

    It is a choice of government that not enough taxes are collected to pay for the welfare state we have created. This is a simple fact that you need to accept – the scale of the issue is such that you can disband the MOD and everyone who works in justice and it still wouldn’t clear the annual deficit.

    unfortunately you come across as someone who cares little for this country and everything for yourself..

    • And if you really wanted to save money, then stop this appalling waste of between £35 to £40 billion to buy our way out of the EU whilst leaving a back door wide open via Eire. If I ever witnessed the act of absolute dimwits, it was those who voted for this utter fiasco and who were dumb enough to be conned into voting Brexit, something which will never fully happen.

      • TH – So correct me if I am wrong but according tour copy / paste stock post it is wrong for us to act honourably and pay what we believe we owe for the residual costs of the MFF and some pensions over 30 years but its OK for us to pay, say, £130 Bn over 10 years which is what the EU would cost us had we ‘Remained’ (nett of rebate) in your view? As a protesting taxpayer demanding value for money you seem confused as to your position ….

        Now I did smile at your stupidity (again) about “leaving a back door wide open via Eire”. A back door for what exactly? Why would any illegals try entering the UK via a state where passport and status checks are made at the departure airport / seaport and the arrival airport / seaport? A truck at Calais is far easier …

        No Soft lad its an Open Border that has existed since 1923 and the only people allowed to work in the UK will be Irish citizens because no one else will get a work visa let alone the vital NI Number. And guess what? We welcome visitors, tourists and shoppers. Helps with our taxes y’know ….

      • Quite Brexit is something that will never be achieved because, unfortunately, there are too many people like you in positions of influence – easy in their prejudices and comfortable in their assumptions: quick to draw conclusions but uncritical in their reasoning.

        It is a sad day for the country when proofs by assertion and ecological fallacies are used to undermine the democratic will of the people.

        Now, if you want to argue that our form of democracy is undemocratic then I would certainly agree with you in part but that is an entirely different question.

        I have been stating from day one, post-referendum, that “the deep state” as the Americans are terming it, are determined that: their will be done – and not the people’s. Brexit will be rent meaningless, killed by a thousand qualifications and expensive.

    • You sound like my old granny’s parrot John. He squawked a lot too but never much understood things. He didn’t have to pay taxes either.

  4. I believe in a defence budget paid for from our hard earned taxes which is sustainable and reflects this country’s place in the world. Now, just who are the real enemies? Russia, China ? Nonsense! It is terrorists and extremists and they aren’t deterred by white elephant carriers and Trident!
    Fortunately, as I am fast finding out, posters on here are in the minority and I and others will plague politicians endlessly until reality is faced.

      • A medium sized European country with adequate coastal forces, defensive air and ground forces with no expeditionary element. Dispense with nuclear weapons. I have already sent off two letters calling for an average defence spend of 1.42% in common with the European average.

        Indeed, I concur with what Veterans for Peace are actively campaigning for:
        https://vfpuk.org/

        Real former armed services personnel not bath tub admirals on here.

        Just think, all the time you are posting here, you could be actually campaigning.

        I have already sent off two letters calling for an average defence spend of 1.42% GDP in common with the European average.

  5. And if you really wanted to save money, then stop this appalling waste of between £35 to £40 billion to buy our way out of the EU whilst leaving a back door wide open via Eire. If I ever witnessed the act of absolute dimwits, it was those who voted for this utter fiasco and who were dumb enough to be conned into voting Brexit, something which will never fully happen.

  6. Don’t rise to it guys, TH obviously got out of bed on the wrong side this morning.

    We get it TH, small weak Defence and Britain swallowed up by the European Union, I think we all get the message.

    Wrong place to sell this philosophy me thinks…

  7. A medium sized European country with adequate coastal forces, defensive air and ground forces with no expeditionary element. Dispense with nuclear weapons. I have already sent off two letters calling for an average defence spend of 1.42% in common with the European average.

    Indeed, I concur with what Veterans for Peace are actively campaigning for:
    https://vfpuk.org/

    Real former armed services personnel not bath tub admirals on here.

    Just think, all the time you are posting here, you could be actually campaigning.

    I have already sent off two letters calling for an average defence spend of 1.42% GDP in common with the European average.

    • You make some big assumptions about the type of people who post on here. What on earth makes you think we do not campaign / write to our MPs etc?

      One slight flaw in the 1.42% argument. The EU will have to up its defence spending as the US (at least under Trump) seems a tad fed up of subsidising them. Who can blame them either, just look at the state of the German navy and air force. They will have to up their game, as we should too.

      I would like to see us spend the current budget much more wisely though and with a real strategic vision, not the budget/scrapping review that happens every 5 years and is laughingly called a SDSR.

  8. You seem to repeating yourself a lot TH. You don’t appear to grasp the fact we are a Maritime trading Island nation. We have been for 100’s of years, our EU dalliance has been a disappointing 40 year diversion.

    As we slowly move away from the “little Europe” mindset and slowly re-engage with the world, we will require the tools to robustly defend our interests and make a contribution to the defence of our Allies across the world.

    The white elephants, as you call the Carriers TH, will have a positive effect on peace enforcement again and again over the next 50 years, stopping wars by simply being there, or even an implied deployment. They are fantastic tools for an important trading nation like the UK.

    Of that I am sure. Read up on your history and see how positive economic effect goes hand in hand with a strong Navy.

    • Getting out of the EU is going to cost between £35 to £40 billion leaving a wide open back door in the form of a soft border with Eire. It’s not going to happen as the racists and Little Englanders would like to see it.

      • Racists and little Englanders TH, well that’s an intelligent counter argument…

        So the majority ( that’s how democracy works) voted out and because this doesn’t fit with your small minded insular Eurocentric attitude, you brand me and fellow BREXIT voters racist, that’s outrageous and very offensive.

        What was it you said to John earlier in the thread…
        “He squawked a lot too but never much understood things.”

        I think you we’re looking in a mirror when you said this…

        Very sad

      • TH – would those ‘Little Englanders’ be the ones in Wales which voted Leave?

        Or the 1 million Scots who voted Leave?

        Or those in Northern Ireland who voted Leave?

        #FacePalm

    • TH is a tad repetitive however Brexit is a mistake and mess in my view. That said lets look at facts.
      Bae have benefitted and not delivered value for money to taxpayer
      Tax evasion costing this country dearly which could plug gap.
      We cannot afford the strong defence we all desire and leaving EU will leave France, Germany, and Italy collaborating on future modernisation and development further worsening our chances of producing competitive produts for use and exporting . We can’t afford a go it alone project that would be effective.
      Even yanks already downplaying our importance and capabilities post Brexit.
      I would love to see stronger UK defence forces and manufacturing/export base bit this won’t happen in my lifetime.
      Apart from cost only grounds it makes no sense to dispose of ships of this type.
      Proud remainer and always will be. I would love to see us strong but…..

      • Ian – as a proud Brexiteer can I ask you to show us where we will be in any way abandoning our role as the most respected and effective security operation in Europe post Brexit? It is our GCHQ that provides EU Governments with the best anti-terrorist intelligence in the world and has foiled 300 attacks IN mainland Europe. Intelligence data enhanced because we are a key player in ‘Five Eyes’ none of the other 4 of which are in the EU.

        Whose Typhoons are now in Eastern Europe and have been supplying air cover in the Baltics? Whose C-17s do the French need for large air transport of their own forces?Whose armoured divisions are also in Eastern Europe? When was the last time we needed French or German forces here to protect us and can you guarantee they would ever turn up?

        Name me any EU country that contributes half of what we contribute to NATO now and will suddenly contribute more than us post Brexit? The biggest threat to NATO isn’t from Russia it is from the European Union and its march to becoming the United States of Europe with resources directed at its own posturing and delusions of grandeur made up of countries that have preferred to surrender to aggression or have been the major cause of that aggression. And none of whom have won any wars for centuries. Personally I hope NATO shuts down, leaves the EU to fend for itself and we sign a mutual protection pact with the USA who are our real allies (like them or not).

        The Yanks are concerned. But their concern is about supposed rumours of what we are doing to our RM / amphibious forces NOW not post Brexit. Please stop the Remainer propensity to create a ‘sleight of fact’. I am sure they are delighted we are still buying £ Bns of Poseidon, F-35 and Chinook aircraft and 2,700 Oshkosh vehicles.

        Name me ONE collaboration with the French that has gone well since we joined the EEC / EU. (Concorde and Jaguar pre-date the EEC). And didn’t Typhoon go well with first the French baling out and then the Germans demanding ‘fair workshare’ and when they got it cut their orders in half. Ask Airbus what they think of the Germans over the A400M….

        I have no wish for UK Forces to be subsumed under some EU Military regime run by Mr Tusk, Mr Juncker or Frau Merkel thank you very much. Because that is where the EU is heading – Just go and read Juncker’s ‘State of the Union’ message. ‘Ever closer union’ and EU army aspiration are right there for all with eyes to see.

  9. Getting back to the subject of the article I recall reading somewhere that warnings were issued before specifying these engines that they were not the best fit and could be problematic in hot conditions!!?

  10. Whilst I can in part understand Prospect’s argument, what about workers in other parts of the UK who would be affected by moving this work up north?

  11. Can we separate the Gas Turbines them selves from the intercooler system please? Especially as (if my understanding is correct) the diesels shut down too hence complete loss of electric power generation. A ‘gradual degradation’ was designed in for the intercoolers that progressively closed down the gas turbines. Sadly what happens (occasionally) is a ‘catastrophic degradation’. AKA shut down. Nothing actually breaks or is damaged.

    Of course the RN Mechs are rather adept at making things work and have built a huge red ‘reset’ button that switches the electric back on….. A respectful jest that points out that no Type 45 has been unable to fulfil its duties because of this fault.

    • The machinery control software for the engines etc has been altered and that has helped. The monitoring logic is a lot more fuzzy ( tolerant of faults) and less black and white so shut downs are less.
      The modded recouperator core is under trial on a T45 now. ( Guess which one!)

      The T45 that operated in hot climates recently had little if any issues with TLFs ( Total Electrical Failures) because the users and operators now have a lot more confidence in the system and are operating it in the modes it was designed to operate under. That is on GTs at all times with the DGs on emergency standby only.

      The upgrading of the DGs will mean that the T45 will be able to chug around on DGs only without issue. That is something they cannot do at present because the DGs are simply are not man enough to provide both propulsion , warfighting power and hotel services at the required levels. Its how the system was designed at its conception…DGs for emergency and standby use only …not for 24/7 use.

  12. It does seem strange that the Naval Architects didn’t see this issue, it demonstrates a lack of joined up thinking.

    Still, we are where we are chaps, I hope lessons have been learnt and this expensive (and apparently) easily avoidable problem doesn’t occur again.

  13. No but you will never meet TH face to face…..ever because the little tit lives in Russia.
    His address is
    UK undermine office
    Centre for hybrid warfare
    Basement rooms
    Kremlin
    Moscow
    Russia
    anyone saying uk should give up nuclear weapons, carrier strike, etc must be a Putin mole. Simple
    As to the UK armed forces they need much more investment not less. I would go to 3% gdp to defence now moving towards 4% by 2023. That is the best and only way to guard against future threats to uk sovereignty and our EEZ, a resurgent Russia and the ever growing might of China.

    • I wish you were right, I would feel happier with that.

      Sadly I think you are wrong and he/she is British.

      What the hell has this nation created. So ashamed someone like that
      is from my nation.

  14. The extremely costly problem with the T45’s results from having these ships designed by a committee, interfered with by bods in the MoD, rank engineering incompetence by BAe and a failure to correct the issues before all SIX of these warships were built and accepted by the RN.

    You-all can winge as much as you like, but the root cause of this highly embarrassing fiasco is crap management by MoD/BAe compounded by various incompetent Ministers of Defence who were collectively incapable of understanding the complex engineering issues.

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