Astute class nuclear submarine HMS Audacious will be commisioned into the Royal Navy fleet later today at HMNB Clyde in Scotland.
HMS Audacious, is the fourth of seven Astute-class attack submarines being built by BAE Systems for the Royal Navy.
Big day for the crew of @RoyalNavy submarine, HMS Audacious, as they prepare for the commissioning of the #submarine at HMNB Clyde later today. Read more about Audacious here: https://t.co/xlEbeklwlD. pic.twitter.com/sMUKRo5PeK
— Royal Navy in Scotland (@RNinScotland) September 23, 2021
During trials earlier this year, Audacious fired an upgraded Spearfish torpedo off the Bahamas.
The Royal Navy say that five of the heavy torpedoes were fired by Audacious during three days of trials on a special range.
“The firings at AUTEC, the Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Centre on Andros Island, studied the performance of the weapon at its maximum operating depth and challenged the torpedo’s homing abilities through the introduction of countermeasures.
The trials in the Bahamas were the latest in a string of crucial tests on the upgraded heavyweight torpedo since the decision was taken to enhance it in 2010. The souped-up Spearfish – known as the Mod-1 – features a new warhead, new, safer fuel system, a smarter electronic ‘brain’ and a fibre-optic guidance link with its parent submarine to improve its accuracy and lethality.
These trials took place after Initial Operating Capability was achieved, meaning work can now begin turning existing Spearfish into the improved Mod-1 version for entry into operational service with all Royal Navy submarines by 2025.”
You can read more about those trials by clicking the link above.
Not a bad gig for those submariners getting to train in the Caribbean. Anyway, great stuff. About time
Shame we’re only getting 7. Though I have read somewhere that SSNR is going to be 8.
Some positive news at least. Given the current climate, a few more would be nice!
“The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has funded BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce to undertake early design and concept development work for a next-generation nuclear-powered submarine (SSN) class to replace the Royal Navy’s (RN’s) Astute-class boats from about 2040.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/naval-weapons/latest/uk-awards-design-and-concept-contracts-for-next-generation-ssn
Still too few, but if it happens an improvement.
Should be mid teens.
I would be happy with boat 8.
wouldn’t see it before 2030
Mate, I read the story headline and thought this was referring to an 8th additional boat! Ah well, suppose 7 is better than 6
I do feel that having only one yard is somewhat perilous. It wouldn’t be hard to cripple our ability to design and construct these boats with a well placed industrial accident and having only one yard does seem to reduce our flexibility to respond to a changing threat environment.
With a sub fleet in the mid teens and a sub life of 30 plus years the isn’t work to keep two yards in business. The have a second yard continuously building subs would need doubling of the sub fleet. There is no sign that either of the main political parties would fund that.
Do you realise the expense of having a second nuclear capable submarine yard and skilled workforce sitting idle, when the yard we have is already working at (guessing) half capacity?
Good sense , I didn’t think of the possibilities that you have highlighted , need to invest down south.
I wonder if: If the aussies build Astute, I wonder if they could build us an extra 1 or 2?
Maybe by 2040
Yes, thinking the same. Get the RAN their lead 1-2 subs sooner and an additional 1-2 for the RN prior to the SSNR. More subs can be in more places and two can commit to any CSG.
Not going to happen! The Australian naval industry is a long way off that capability.
For the RAN to get Nuke subs sooner will depend on the USA to lease s few LA Class subs to the RAN, that’s if.
It’s more likely a RN sub is forward deployed in Ozz.
Would you really want to set a precedent for RN warships being built in foreign countries? 🤷♂️
Hard to believe that 40 years ago in 1981 we had 28 SSK/SSNs.
Wow. That doesn’t seem possible but when I reflect on the Frigate count back then it was in the 70s…
Jolly in the Crib , on board or Hotels used too be the norm after a few weeks playing on the Aurtec range Tongue of the Ocean
Great news but not for the submariners. They don’t get ashore.
Excellent news, information can be found here for those who have an interest.
SSN Astute Class Nuclear Submarine
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/astute/
MOD-1 Spearfish Torpedo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NotdcGym2o
What I can’t find anywhere is are crew quarters now better than what you see on prior class eg v’s HMS Trenchant, which looked very cramped in that C5 documentary (and very rusted too i guess for a decades old boat not a surprise). I see one article that said actually worse than before but does not seem trustworthy, and remember seeing something about having an innovative lighting system (I guess RGB LED:)) that mimics day and night and outside conditions. The other things was maintenance with Trenchant something seems to go wrong every day 🙂
Thought I’d read all crew have own bunk as opposed to having to share as part of shifts.
They all start off having enough bunks for everyone but the crew starts creeping up so some hot bunk, then more crew or riders etc are on so more hot bunk. You can also put beds on the weapons racks in the ‘bomb shop’ but that obviously takes up space and its a working compartment so not the best for sleeping.
Is it 6 hour shifts?
For the majority yes, its a straight 6 on/6 off, the ‘steam pigs/bin bag/back afties’ (stokery types) are usually 4 on/8 off because of the working conditions. Bombers because of their larger crew numbers can be a bit more flexible once they’re on patrol.
You do settle into it.
Right. Sneaky boats and their ilk don’t have their own bunks.
Its not just when doing sneakies, there can be people from other boats that need to keep in date or there to be trained on different gear or just guys who need to do their ‘Dolphins’ to become fully qualified submariners.
I’ve no idea how bad it is now but when you’ve only got limited platforms there’s a high demand for training billets and that’s before you toss in different riders (FOST staff etc).
On my equality and diversity instructors course at Shrivenham , we had a few PO from the Subs . Over coffee it was revealed that they had to set aside a room for praying followed by , our only Muslim has no problem eating bacon sarnies.
😀
I’m my very limited experience, there is no better inclusivity training than combat. Mates helping mates, life long friendships formed. Bullets are colour blind. Yikes. I’m getting all philosophical!
Farouk sorry to seem a bit silly but if submerged how does one face to Mecca when at Pray please forgive my ignorance
Imagine hot Bunking with the Smelly B.O guy on the crew..
Most crews will find somewhere ‘comfy’ in pipe spaces, torpedo loading bay I have hears a few times, even from American subs. I’ve been lucky enough to have a tour on several US / Uk subs, even the biggest suffer from lack of crew sleeping areas. Also the dreaded ‘ coffin dreams’ where they’d wake up and feel like they are buried in their own coffin *shudders*
Hi DRS, the bunks space is pretty much the same as on the T boats, slightly different layout but the same idea, 3 high and not much space between them. The ‘mess’ on the A boats is pretty small, certainly smaller than the S boats but the T boat ones were smaller too.
It’s the coffin nightmares that freak me out, ive heard of very capable guys having to leave the service due to that issue.
The old P&O boats were hot bunking T&Rs slightly better A’s are mixed crew
Hehe, submarines are cramped full stop – three to five decks crammed into a metal tube. All ships get rust streaks as they spend their lives in saltwater – they get a bit of chipping and painting or even a new coat when in port. Subs are covered with rubber tiles – so paint not an option and they streak a little when exposed to fresh air during a maintainance period (not their natural environment). A-boats are larger but with a smaller crew, so should be a little less claustophbic – but most space is taken up by machinery, weapons… Read more »
So was this parliamentary answer in 2020 inaccurate then? https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2020-04-29/HL3735
Goodo, we just need more….
How about we sell OZ our next boat and all the technical know how, that should fund boat 8.
How long can the remaining T boats stay in service?
Good News. Leaving aside all the personalities, governments and Admirals, it would make absolute perfect sense to just keep the assembly line going and build some for the RAN plus just one more for the RN. In terms of delivery,cost and capability could anything make more sense??
“In terms of delivery, cost and capability could anything make more sense??”
That’s the problem 😂
Hi geoff, Simple answer is yes. The more realistic answer is more complicated. Firstly, the production line at Barrow is filling up with the new Dreadnaught class SSBN’s. Two are already being worked on, at least one of which, I believe, is taking shape at Barrow (the second may still be at the ‘long lead items’ stage). Given the priority of the CASD and the rapdily ageing Vanguard class I do not see the UK government allowing any further delays in the Dreadnaught class that would result from handing production slots to the RAN. Secondly, the Aussies are determined to… Read more »
I take it some submarine sections can’t be made off sight at another yard. Lots of our other yards did build submarines at one point, ok not this complex but still.
Good thinking Reaper Qecs were thrown together all round d the UK before being assembled in Rosyth Dreadnoughts are smaller in tonnage evidently but twin hulled outer ,pressure is their other yards like Pompey’s who specialise in that kind of welding xraying, Stress testing ?
No, not good thinking.
While extremely high quality, the issue with the carriers was quantity of work. Quite a few shipyards had the technical skills and equipment.
Submarines are a different beast. Quality of work has to be much better; there’s really not much room for error. Especially nuclear powered ones.
That’s the whole point ,specialist welders Xraying of welds stress testing of materials apart from Barrow ,Bae Pompey ,Devonport would be about the only dockyards that could. Devonport has worked on nukes for years, Pompey did diesels but the expertise is there.
I didn’t expect either would be competent enough to do tasks involving the reactors housing ,etc but Hull construction akin too such as was used for the Qec’s buikd
Morning fella, it doesn’t quite work like that. Barrow is a building yard. Devonport is a refit yard, whilst the two require lots of workers with the same skill set the two are completely different activities. They are the only two yards that have a license to deal with Nuclear SM work (not sure about Rosyth).
Unfortunately Pompey haven’t touched SSKs for over 20 years (sold the Upholders in 90s), so it is highly unlikely that they will have any SM expertise left after such a long period out of that SM game.
Rosyth use too deal with polaris and whilst there in the 90ts a Trident Dock/,basin had been constructed ,
Sorry lates 80ts construction began on the Dick/Bason
I know that Rosyth used to do refits, but they don’t do any now, that’s all done down in Guzz.
Rosyth store decommissioned nuclear SMs just like Guzz. That’s as far as it goes I believe.
If push came to shove, in a emergency, then I could see Rosyth getting back into the refit business.
Thanks Deeps when Based up there, there was P boat in refit , all aft under cover rad tallies on all dockyard personnel use too joke about “Redie Brek” giving them an all round Glow
Exactly deeps if She Ms Sturgeon wants a Scottish defence force ,France has dome diesel electric SSKs must have some going cheap now especially as she wants to rejoin the EU
Rosyth isn’t nuclear build licensed anymore.
It’s current license is for storage only.
Restarting three would be complicated by SNP’s UND posture. Anyway I do t think anyone would shut the sole UK nuclear shipyard and dream that all the workforce would amble up to sunny Rosyth!!
It’s not just sunny as you put it SP but boy was there a sectarian divide in the shed Orange and Left footers they didn’t get along , had to visit one of the workshops too get some weapon gauges checked over not being rude by I should have had an interpreter Kidding Hsf a lovely Rust tan when I left
The problem is that there is no such thing as a line. N-a-B went into that in some detail. What Barrow does have is a fabrication team that is now well versed in making Astute pressure hulls. It might be possible to increase the depth of the workforce so that Astute could continue in production as well as Dreadnought. It just depends on the rate at which the workforce can be augmented whilst keeping QA at the essential levels. That said things could be speeded up at Barrow as it is a local joke that the time to inspect the… Read more »
CL definitely do some steel work for Barrow.
Which is why I said
“Various bits of Astute have been made in other places for a while already.”
Hi SB, OK line is probably the wrong word, but there is limited space at the yard which is what I was alluding to. The link below shows what I had in mind when I wrote my post. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/down-periscope-britains-new-nuclear-subs-set-for-choppy-waters-9b93zzs32 There has been an expansion at Barrow I believe but there are now three Astutes and two Dreadnaught class subs underway at Barrow. That’s a lot of work and the SSNR programme is starting to gear up as well! Bottom line I still think there is a capacity issue at Barrow which I accept is probably also linked to the size… Read more »
Well that means there are 5 spaces in which things can be built.
Building more shed is the cheap easier bit.
More the issue than X factor is the lack of focus on trades and technical training – if you don’t have the training slots you won’t have the workers trained to learn how to do the job properly. Welcome to why demolishing the CFE & Polytechnic system was not clever…
But then it was fashionable to demolish factories then and do ‘services’…..
Hi mate, (5 spaces) no that’s not what it means at all. DDH has had an extension, but, that doesn’t mean we suddenly have space for 5 boats, it means they have a bit more room to operate and get things prep’d for build. The remaining 3 A boats are all but built – externally, they are now completing all the internal work that is required for completion. They will complete one, then progress down the line until all 3 are complete and launched – 2026 for the last, so still lots of work. Construction on D hull 1 will… Read more »
I defer to your superior knowledge.
I’ve only been there once 20+ years ago.
You do have to curse the various yo-yos who decided to break the drumbeat of production in the name of “peace dividend”, “Sandy wars”, “schools-n-hospital”, “balancing the books”……….
Im sure that I can talk Bo**ocks with the rest sometimes, so no worries mate.😂😂
I think that one reason for the slow build rate is that we don’t actually need a A boat replacement until late 2030, as Astute is scheduled to last some 30 years without refit!
I suspect that had we not need Dreadnought build to start so soon, and money were available, then we might have had an extra Astute?
Who knows. HMG are a law unto themselves, so this is just a wild guess really!!
Aaargh. Did nobody read the Parker report? Slow costs money.
I think it has been digested hence the T31 project.
T31 is a trial, if you like, of ‘The Parker Principles’
Submarines are also delivered separately via the Submarine Delivery Authority: for historical reasons some of which are not valid anymore. SDA is a good example of slowing down a project so it can be delivered ‘On Tine & On Budget’ – that phrase makes me mad every time I see it as it translated to ‘Ridiculous Budgets & Crazy Timescales’….
Wouldn’t disagree with that mate.
Amazing the vanguards were laid down and built in @ 5 Years each and commissioned the following year. Astutes are running at +/- 12 years from being laid down to commissioning. Almost a quarter of a century since Astute orders were placed.
Your not going Woke on us are you Supportive Bloke That will never do whatever next LOL
Nobody has ever accused me of being woke……
Thank god for that hope I’m not upsetting anyone with the god word
Great explanation D. Thank you.
Thanks Deeps , increase Apprenticeship schemes , would I hope also be on the Books for Barrow
That, I would hope, would be the start of rebuilding capacity.
Also slowly inching up the drumbeat to allow for a larger fleet.
Thanks CR for giving us the reality check!
The plan is to build the fleet of SSNs here in Oz.
What we won’t definitely be building here in Oz is the reactor.
We won’t know for another 18mths which design will be chosen (UK or US), but that particular hull section won’t be part of the local build program.
Cheers,
Think will be a US design, the UK new design hasnt actually been fielded yet has it? so would be very high risk
Mate, there is no guarantee at this stage which design or which nation will supply the design to the RAN. Both the UK and US have plans in the works for a follow on design to replace their respective Astute and Virginia classes. Crewing is going to be a very important factor, the current Collins class has a crew of 58, Attack was to have 60, Astute is 98 and Virginia is 135. As to cost per hull, Virginia is considerably more expensive than Astute. If I was to have a wild arse stab in the dark now, I’d say… Read more »
Virginia is not that much more expensive than the Astute. It’s difficult to get an exact reading but basically an Astute costs $2 billion. The US Navy just signed an amended contract with GD to build 10 block V Virginias at a cost of $2.4 billion each. Interestingly, that tenth Virginia is only going to cost $1.89 billion. Economy of scale. Something the UK can’t offer. There is not much to choose between the Astute and Block V Virginia when it comes to reactors or sensors but where Block 5 Virginia has the edge is in the number of weapons… Read more »
If crewing is the main driver, then, the French Barracuda would have been favourite (crew 60), but, there are other considerations that probably ruled that choice out!!! There are only 2 choices per se, either an Astute, or a Virginia class. SSN(R) isn’t even a set of drawings yet, neither is the US SSN-X, both are at least some 15 years from build. A modified Astute is probably unlikely, we are busy with Dreadnought and starting design work for SSN(R), which will be our priority for the foreseeable future. Not sure about the US though! So, if Aus are going… Read more »
My understanding is that the two US yards which build SSN’s are also at capacity building boats for the USN, but I think you are missing the point. It is the Aussie’s intention to purchase the design of a submarine from either the US or the UK, and then to carry out as much of the construction as possible (read: hulls) in Australia using Australian workers, with certain things which cannot be constructed there (ie reactor compartments) being constructed either in the US or UK and shipped to Australia for assembly. In my opinion, Astute or a derivative thereof with… Read more »
Evening Daniel, I also believe that both sides of the pond are at capacity for building SSNs. The issue of building said class was always going to revolve around where the RC was coming from, the rest of the issues eg combat systems and weapon fit is easy by comparison. It will be a considerable time before Aus has all the technical expertise in place to commence building SSNs even with assistance from both countries. I don’t think that a derivative Astute is likely, we are just about to start designing SSN(R), the US will be busy with SSN-X, so… Read more »
Surely it’s just an upgraded/ dated Astute, didn’t the Astute’s share lots of parts from their predecessor.
Hi Reaper, I read an article not so long ago (on Defence Technology I think) and much of the equipment on the Astutes is newly developed, often from systems that were on the T-class, but they were upgraded. The big ticket item, the reactor, was new to the V-class and basically drove the size of the Astutes which are much bigger than the T-boats as a result. The sonar suite fitted to the Astute Class was retro-fitted on to some of the T-boats to keep them current. So yes you right up to a point… It is never a clear… Read more »
Hi mate, ref the sonar suite, nothing was retro-fitted, the T boats had S2076, which was then fitted on the A boats. The basic hardware remains the same, with some improvements to the processing side (better computing etc). The major improvements/changes have been in software for the system, that, you basically download, so SM’s may well be at different software mods, but eventually they all receive the same mod.
Hi Deep32, This is the quote from Naval Technology (it is not well written, to be fair); “Sonar 2076 has so far been fitted to Trafalgar Class submarines Torbay, Trenchant and Talent, which entered service in February 2003. Astute is fitted with the latest version of the Thales S2076 integrated sonar suite.” The article can be found here. I have also found this Thales infromation sheet on the yumpa website. The Sonar 2076 was developed for the final upgrade of the Swiftsure / Trafalgar Class boats, so was apparently a retrofit system. It was further updated for the Astute Class.… Read more »
Hi CR, S2076 went to see on Torbay then Trenchant early 2003. The hardware, ie sonar arrays Weo flank are all just improvements on older generation hardware eg ST 2020. Where they were all pretty much stand alone bits of kit. S2076 brought them all together, gave it a posh title ‘federated system with multi function displays) and allowed operators to control/view any sensor input on any screen that was the new software bit, including a few tweaks to hardware. So, the hardware is older, but the software and computing technology is the new bit. We were the first boat… Read more »
Hi Deep32,
Thanks for the clarification, now I understand…
Cheers CR
No worries mate, enjoy it day.👍
I’d have thought it would be a tweaked Virginia or a squashed Dreadnought design. Astute would be a bad choice because of the outdated reactor.
Does Building all the specialist equipment getting the right men and yard make sense to just build a few Submarines? What after all that investment, no exports!.
Fair enough maybe assembled in Oz, with sections coming from uk, usa and OZ surely that’s more cost effective?
It’s not about being cost effective, it’s about building a sovereign defence capability and being able to maintain, upgrade and manage that capability. We were planning to build 12 Attack class conventional subs, the project budget allocation was going to equal an expenditure of A$90b (2050s dollars). That expenditure wasn’t just the cost of 12 X SSG, it included everything necessary to build and maintain that fleet and future replacements too. The new SSN fleet will have all of that funding and probably more too. The Government here has said ‘at least eight SSN’, it could be more, and of… Read more »
And quite a jewel John,
If it comes off and the RAN gets 8 SSN then it will put the RAN into the top 6 of global navies – if you accept that SSN’s are the ‘battleships’ of modern navies…
Cheers CR
A huge project and big step forward for Aus and natural progression in a nation that is growing in population and prominence not to mention being the 6th biggest country in the world! Now if you can do Nuke subs how about restarting an indigenous car industry. Holden 2025?
The RAN want to build their own so want technical help. I very much doubt they will buy one off UK. niether UK or USA are going to give them our cutting edge secret sauce
The whole point of AUKUS is to give RAN ‘our secret sauce’. There are quite a few permutations – joint design and build of one of the next classes of boats (both USN and RN are in the design phase), an improved version of either Virginia or Astute, or a wholly new boat designed with UK/US input (or even a joint AUKUS design for all three navies). Short term lease/basing or joint crewing of boats is likely too.
No we may help them with nuclear power and helping them build a nuclear industry but if you think we will share the cutting edge sonar and sensors on astute your wrong, we don’t share that with usa
No we share that with France! Most U.K. and French sonar is common built by the various bits of Thales.
And British built sonar was going to be part of the cancelled French contract from what I read.
The various subsidiaries of Thales are not required and/or not permitted, under any circumstances to to share amongst themselves classified designs. Subsidiaries in the defence industry are effectively independent in that regard.
Secret sauce? What do you think the new AUKUS alliance is there for?
The US gave the special sauce to the UK in 1958 to start their Nuclear submarine program.
The UK and US will be doing it for Australia on the back of the new alliance.
Yes. But the hurdles Aus has to overcome are huge. When the UK (thro the 1958 Agreement) built HMS Dreadnought it was if I recall a UK front end mated to a US (Skipjack) rear end (including US reactor). But the UK had a decent submarine building industry in those days – something like 24 subs(?) from 1945-1960. Australia hasn’t built a sub for quite a while – so nothing like the relative expertise compared to the UK experience. It will be interesting if Aus wants its own design whether it will go down a similar front+back route.
Mate, yes the hurdles will be huge, no doubt about that at all. But it does appear the UK and US have committed to ensuring the Australian project succeeds, The PM here has said the Government will commit the appropriate level of funding, he said ‘whatever it takes’. Expertise and involvement from General Dynamics Electric Boat (GDEB) and BAE will be critical. I heard the other day the Def Min announced that GDEB will be heavily involved in the Collins class LOTE. Again, huge hurdles, but as long as all three AUKUS parties commit to the project it does have… Read more »
Bravo.
I understand the Aus Govt’s position and wish them all success. The two main dangers to the project are I think how bespoke a design they want and political ( the ALP in other words!). You can also bet China will try to influence political outcomes by their usual shady methods.
On the bright side at least the French are gone.One of my prayers answered at least👏.
Wasn’t there an exchange of secret sauce i.e. US reactor know-how and UK silencing know-how?
The current UKUSA ( before that BRUSA ) agreement involves many secret sauces that have been shared between UK / USA / Can / Aus / NZ for decades. No harm in adding SSN tech to the mix.
The US could lease LA Class subs to the RAN, or help to design a updated mod
of the LA Class.
Yes, the US won’t give away the latest tech.
Exactly people on here are under the illusion U.K. and USA are gunna share cutting edge secrets with Australia, what we are doing is helping them build nuclear subs and industry, if they asked for an LA class or a trafalgar then yes but no way would give them a current boat. Us and U.K. wouldn’t
In a post I placed when France had a non nuclear meltdown I did suggest T boats as a stop-gap for Aus too counter Chinese presence in their neck of the woods, Hasn’t Biden or Boris said anything on a Lend lease programme for the Aussies , ?
It seems like an obvious thing to do but is PWR2 still in production?
Hi Peregrine,
I don’t think so, unless they are still building the last reactor for the Astute Class.
The Dreadnaught class SSBN is using the PWR3. This new reactor will also go into the SSNR replacement for Astute as well I believe.
The Dreadnaught Class are bigger than the Vanguard Class that they are replacing. If this is reflected in the reactor physical size then the SSNR will likely be even bigger than the Astute’s…
Cheers CR
No it’s finished and working on next design
There will be decades before an Australian SSN is at sea.
Where are all the moaners that the RN is a “third world navy” that I have opposed over the years here.
They must have taken a day off, with assets such as this on the prowl and the complexities Australia is facing introducing these.
The UK has had them for decades.
I think you will find nutty Noah and nelly are currently all aboard the skylark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkN2_NYuRgg
Grange Calveley passed away last month. R.I.P.
Love the tune to Rhubarb and Custard.
Yeh, I agree. The RN still sits in third place behind the US and Russia for numbers of SSN. The French have 6, but they also have 6 SSBN’s according to the recent graphic that went up all over the place when the AUKUS alliance was announced.
So if the SSN is still the modern day equivalent to the battleship the RN is still pretty much in the top 5 of global navies.
Of course, if you use surface fleet as your primary measure that doesn’t quite stack up. 🙂
Cheers CR
That graphic wouldn’t happen to be French in origin, would it?
6? Thought they had 4 like us.
It’s 4 mate. Not sure what graphic @CR is referring to.
A poor one I think. 6SSBN!
Moring D, only 4 SSBN, they did have 6 in the 1980s though.
Hi Daniele,
My mistake it is China with 6 SSBN and 6 SSN.
The graphic is originally from the International Institute for Strategic Studies and can be found at the bottom of this article on the BBC website. I have also seen it elsewhere, but can’t for the life of me remember where..!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-58616759
The French have 4 SSBN and 4 SSN.
That puts the RN in 4th place in the league table of submarine capability based on numbers alone. Of course, we all agree that is not the whole story.
Cheers CR
people say the RN is weak, but if it’s based of firepower ect the our Nukes trump having more ships, one warhead from one missile thst has multiple British built warheads could destroy a naval task force or naval base from continents away… So Nuclear navys should all be the top Navys, anyone disagree?
I’d say if we are firing tridents off the strength of the fleet is pretty much irrelevant, everyone has already lost.
The strength of the non nuclear fleet is still relevant as its hoped if the brown stuff his the fan that’s the fleet we will be relying on. We still need conventional muscle.
Me to an extent. As the top navies should be judged on- Assets ( capability and numbers ) People ( training, experience, professionalism ) Operations. ( the doing, and having done, not sitting in port looking shiny ) The RN tick most of those boxes. How many can send a CSG around the world and maintain it, whether it has 4 escorts or 40? We have gaps, and lack of numbers, like most others who are not the USN. There is a reason FOST is so valued and navies around the world send their assets and people for Thursday war… Read more »
“So Nuclear navys should all be the top Navys, anyone disagree?”
Its not top trumps mate. If all you can do is nuke the crap out of places then you’re not exactly ticking all the boxes. “Damn, there’s been an earthquake in Haiti…. should we send some humanitarian aid ???? Nah mate, we got rid of all that stuff to get another SSBN so we could nuke the crap out of everyone. Should we just nuke them ????”……
Pirates operating off the coast of Somalia/Indonesia ??? “Goddamn it, nuke the bastards”
You get the picture.
Apart from the deterrent(not to be underestimated!), once we’re using nukes everybody on the planet has lost big time from the ensuing MAD.
Much needed, as anyone who watched the Tv program on channel 5 where HMS trenchant was shown knows…
That submarine was falling apart…Failure after failure, granted the Crew fixed the problems and continued on mission but god it was embarrassing I’m surprised they wanted it shown in national TV…
And now I know how to take down a submarine, put the toilets out of action lol.
cant get away from plumbing, i assume the shit has to be forced at high pressure out in the murky depths. the crew were talking about using bin bags as the remedial work was being undertaken.
No, it isn’t normally forced out at high pressure. Although you can ‘blow’ both the slop and sewage tanks. Sewage is flushed into a tank, when full it contents go through a macerator and is pumped overboard, it’s much quieter then putting a HP blow on the tank?
blocked loos made the silent service very relatable
Been on a couple of old S boats that had to come back in because of ‘poo issues’. If you excuse the expression…. shit happens. 😂
Why are you surprised, Trenchant was 30 yo, things break, try keeping your car for 30 years and covering in excess of 30 thousand miles a year!!!!
I think Trenchant is due for decommissioning this year, isn’t it? Don’t think the Navy is going to let a film crew aboard a modern SSN.
Hi fella, Trenchant has already been decommissioned, the filming was conducted just prior to that happening. We only have 2 T boats left, Talent and Triumph, both now over 30 yo.
It’s a good try by the BBC/RN to show life on a sub – but not the best advert for the RN when a lot of the sub looks cramped and clapped out. Would a potential recruit look at that and be impressed? I reckon the documentaries on HMS Duncan and the (forthcoming) one on HMS QE would make a better impression.
Unfortunately SSNs are cramped no matter what class you are on. Have to admit that is showing things at its worst, and serving on SMs isn’t for everyone. Yes agree, those two programmes show the Navy in a better light.
I’ve never been on sub, but it was how I’d imagined they all would be like after a while. It would be interesting if a submariner from another nation could realistically claim they were doing better with their older subs.
Would you rather a blocked toilet or one of the Russian or Argentian subs we might bring to mind with a tinge of sadness?
Sadly , and this goes for a lot of Australians not just me ; we wont be making these or any other Steam Subs . Rickover is the last Block 4 Virginia for the US Navy. No prizes as to who is getting the rest of class . Our sailors are already drawing a certain port in Washington State and as I write this a follow on T-26 specializing as air warfare is being discussed with intention of not being an follow on but simultaneous build . What would be cool if we were to open an wager where that… Read more »
The issue with Numbers is the disposing of them when retired, costs as much to scrap as to build.
USN saying that scrapping the USS ENTERPRISE will take 15 years at a cost of $1b per year. Ouch.
need to recycle REACTORS
The US buries all their submarine reactors in a shallow trench in the desert. Russians cut the reactor module out of the sub then leave the reactor module (its self buoyant) tied up at the harbourside for decades to cool off.
yep disposal maybe 1 reason we only getting 7, i think a lot of our old Nuc’s are rafted in Devonport or Rosyth awaiting disposal.
According to a 2018 Navy Lookout report ~ The painfully slow process of dismantling ex-Royal Navy nuclear submarines. Capenhurst in Cheshire will be the temporary storage facility for nuclear waste until a more permanent, geologically safe underground solution is found within the UK and a facility built, after 2040.
Did we have 12 subs before astute class was introduced?
No mate not then. Between 1980 – 1990 we had 15 SSN’s in our nuclear SM fleet. As the older classes (V, C and S boats) were retired, we were left with the 7 Trafalgar class SSN’s. These are being replaced on a 1 for 1 basis by the Astutes.
During that period we also had 10-12 O-boats (SSK’s)(replaced by 4 Upholders), 4 SSBN’s, so, our SM fleet has shrunk considerably since the mid 90’s, as we now only have 4 SSBN’s, and currently 6 SSN’s which will rise to 7!!
I remember in about 2005 (roughly) at one of the defence cuts (sorry, I mean reviews) when somebody in power said we were going down to 10 SSN’s and we were all pretty shocked. Admittedly half the boats were shagged which meant the running one were run even more ragged but it was an ever decreasing circle. As I understand it, not much has changed.
Indeed it has not, the motto is obviously ‘do more with less’!!!!!
Blair reduced from 12 to 10 I recall.
Dammed Tories!!!
no to mention the rest he chopped in the 2003 “defence review”
Some toplines
Type 45 programme – halved to 6
3 type 23s chopped
Jaguar RAF sqns cut, plus some Tornado, Harrier and Nimrod
The list goes on and on
I know mate. 2004 “New Chapter ” in effect reduced surface fleet to 25 from 31. The T45 requirement was reduced to 8, the 2 extra cuts came later.
RAF was massacred. There were 23 Fast Jet squadrons including FAA when Labour came in and 12 when they left. I always mention this review when posters moan about Tory cuts and Labour wouldn’t do this or that. Cobblers. They’re all as bad and people forget, or choose to ignore, what happened to the military numbers wise from 97 to 2010.
Cheers deep.
Seven SSNs, four SSBNs and an as yet undisclosed number of UUVs
Astute is great but only 7 boats (actually we have 5 at the mo the rest being T Class boats. Anyone watching the C5 series Submarine based on HMS Trenchant? It’s falling apart, the pipes are leaking and the heads blocked). Remember that at any one time only 2 or 3 boats are actually doing their stuff, maybe another 1 is involved in training and the rest in refit. I reckon we need at least another couple of SSNs but how do we do that? If we built just 1 more Astute Class sub and bought, yes from the Germans,… Read more »
I would love to see some small German ‘steaming bat’ SSK’s or something similar. Great for being places that they shouldn’t and a shallow draft would help with places like The Gulf. AIP would be handy, maybe base a couple somewhere like Singers too…. assuming the locals were amenable.
Whilst a few SSK’s for use in home waters does seem to be a good solution to the general lack of hulls and lack of extra production capacity, I don’t think they could be used for perisher. Commanding an SSN is substantially different to commanding an SSK, that’s why the RN only runs perisher courses for foreign personnel who want to be SSN captains, with the Dutch taking over the running of SSK perisher courses since the Upholders were retired.
We could maybe squeeze in one more Astute, but to fund it the RN would have to cancel all 5 of the T31 frigates.
I expect the RN is looking at UUVs for doing the kind of work SSKs might do in coastal waters and the North Sea.
The RN has already committed to the Manta project, which seeks to deliver three relatively large UUVs. I suspect they’re a small but necessary step towards larger, more potent UUVs in the future, which could well serve as SSK replacements.
Small steps of course. But Manta will definitely augment existing capabilities and act as a valuable ASW asset, particularly for training.
I hate to spoil the party fella, but no, they won’t be doing SSK work or indeed replacing a manned SSK any time soon. Can a XUUV/UUV land SF troops – no. Can it conduct ISTAR ops in/around territorial waters – no. Can it track and trail a OPFOR SSN – no, can it conduct area denial/ gatekeeper ops, again no. Not really too sure of what people hope these asset can/will be able to do!!!! At best they will be and extension of a SMs sensors, if they can solve the C&C Comms conundrum. Otherwise they will be running… Read more »
I didn’t realise we were planning on going to war against France, Eire or any of the other North Sea coastal states… Where did you get that information from? As for landing SFs etc our SSNs can do that, that’s why the Astutes can accommodate a dry shelter. They can deploy our SFs worldwide. Our Astute’s are also the RNs primary weapon against SSNs, not sure why you’d want to endanger our sailors by putting them in SSKs to take on SSNs…! As for the UUVs you obviously haven’t been keeping up with AI developments if you think you have… Read more »
Don’t think I mentioned any particular countries coastline! You mentioned taking over SSK tasks, what do you think that might be given your experiences? SSKs are perfect capable of engaging a SSN, they are by far the quieter of the two, thus arguably have a first shot advantage! I’m very aware of the capability of our Astutes, and what they do, are you! I’m also aware of what a UUV can and can’t do, how exactly do you think a UUV is going to stop a SM entering an area!! By asking it nicely!!! Sensors? Detection ranges? Endurance? Tracking ability?… Read more »
SSKs only have any real advantage in coastal waters. I’m all other occasions my money would be on the SSN in a SSN v SSK fight. Pretty sure RN, USN, would place their money there too – actually they have already 🤷♂️ Oh I’d say a torpedo or two from a UUV is going to spoil the day of any enemy submarine. UUVs can be just as deadly as UAVs have proven to be. But I guess you think they’ll never be armed, just like they’ll only be capable of doing racetracks. I think you need to stop living in… Read more »
Your response ref SSK capabilities is total drivel fella! Ask any SM capt what vessel he fears most, he would say another SM, ask him what type he fears most, he would say SSK – why, because they are quieter/stealthier then a SSN. In our world he who shoots first, generally gets to go home. Advantage SSK. You conveniently omitted the bit where/how a UUV is going to; Detect Track Classify Produce a Fire Control Solution (Tgt Course,Speed, Range) Position itself to fire a torpedo at its target. The above is all done by a crewed SM using its extensive… Read more »
Continue to live in the 50’s, because clearly your knowledge hasn’t advanced since those days. I’ll leave you to your obsolete knowledge, thinking, and sheer nativity.
Oh deary me, did the big boy ask to many difficult questions that you clearly have no knowledge of and therefore can’t even begin to answer!!! Did it cause you to have a hissy fit in the playground and spit your dummy out. Best go home and tell mummy then, perhaps she will let you play with your toys….
I’m with deep on this one, he’s got the dolphin, operating both legacy and modern SSNs. Experience matters, as future developments depend on previous knowledge and operational experience.
At least! Lucky them eh?
Math … yeah! awesome.
As an ex-army man, I am very envious of the Navy for rolling out modern, (virtually) trouble-free ships and boats in the last 20 years and particularly since the year of the Navy in 201, are doing timely upgrades on mature vessels, and are planning the future frigates (T32) before the next generation of frigates has even been built yet.
The army cannot upgrade or replace its battle-winning equipment, without high drama and failure. Is ther any good and serious planning happening for future, future army equipment?
“the Navy for rolling out modern, (virtually) trouble-free ships and boats in the last 20 years “
While I think the navy are doing a LOT better than the army, don’t believe everything you read. The navy haven’t ticked all the boxes they say they have. Obviously not going to be too specific. Having said that, I’m kinda shocked by how badly the army seem to be consistently making an arse of it.
Good news. Urgently needed, as I have been watching the Sub programme on Ch5, on Mondays and im quite shocked to see how old and worn out Trenchart seems to be. I know its over 30 years old but still quite shocking to see the relaity of keeping older boats in service for longer and longer. Makes me realise that being in a Sub isnt normal, and those submariners while much smarter than me are obviously totaly mad!!! (and have nads of steel). Not normal at all….lol. Anyway, good news and keep it up.
They do to me. As Airborne is somebody. You…?
Thanks for that mate? but I’ve a surprise for you, clocked him, did a quick recce on his older posts, one still remains as Harold with a moan about the carriers! He has a few other avatars remaining included PierrLM saying he is French, and “map” from Falmouth. Bloody sad isn’t it mate, he needs a life! Cheers.
No surprise. Me and Mike have had words before.
And I recall “Harold” was also down in Cornwall.
As Inspector Clusaeu would say….”So….we meet again!”
😝😝😝!
Sounds about right! Even this rather small but well informed site attracts the bots and the trolls, makes you realise the amount of online efforts at dis-information in general, and the larger sites and organisations must be awash with them!
Ah yes. Checks the History. Page 7 – French Army puts British Army to shame thread. I remember it well. The last time we spoke.
Yes I remember Harold! It’s been quite a while now since last heard of?
He may of changed his mind about the carriers, you naver know!
And terminated because of it!
And before him….TH, who was banned.
You never know, maybe the same person.
Sad but easy to spot while thinking they are smart!
Mate, I had that very thought yesterday reading one posters description of the coffin like existence of submariners and that they are totally mad. I thought, which is worse, that or that nutter Airborne throwing himself out of a serviceable aircraft! I’m not sure to be honest!!
Subs mate, I get two parachutists and lots of fresh air….lol. Respect those submariners so much more. But I do remember watching perisher in the 80s? Not sure when it was first shown but no matter the tech, or the times, the crews are still 100% operational and facing danger even in peacetime, nads of steel (But don’t tell deep32 don’t want him getting a big head lol)
Parachutes not bloody parachutists…
Mate, you couldn’t get me to jump out of a perfectly good plane if you gave me 17 parachutes never mind 2. It’s not safe!!!! 😂😂
Deep you dolphin boys are a bit crazy, at least I can breath when jumping lol makes things soooooo much safer 😝
Parachuting is a lot of fun. I remember the first time I used a square rig as opposed to the semi-steerable round canopy, what a difference! For those not in the know, jumping from 2500ft with a round canopy isn’t that bad, you have about a minute or so of bliss, absolute quiet except for a bit of wind noise through the strings and canopy, you can hear ambient sounds and the view is fantastic. Then there’s 20 seconds of sheer panic as you get “ground rush”. This is where the ground seems to accelerate towards you. If you haven’t… Read more »
Spot on mate different methods for different reasons types of entry. Most common and hardest IMHO is an LLP (or before a PX4) static line, with 80 other lads crammed in the back, all with heavy kit, up to 100kg and must go loads to include mortar base plates etc, wedges, door bundles and sick bags, 3 hour flight to include some serious low level, lads not strapped in but sat on the floor, crammed in sweaty as lobbing out at night at 600 feet. Then on the DZ the work starts lol…….aaah those were the days……NOT! Give me a… Read more »
Wow tough first assignment during her first week in commission sent out to try and find HMS Vigil. Nice timing by someone in the production team.